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Iron Fist
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Many Sixes are naturally prone to doubt and self-questioning. In some Sixes, this internal dynamic is projected outwards, and Sixes are notorious for adopting the position of the "devil's advocate." Many Sixes are, thus, prone to questioning and challenging the motives and beliefs of those around them. Sometimes this strategy succeeds in forcing the Six's interlocutor to clarify his or her position or to seek common ground with the Six. Other times however, it only serves to turn the Six's interlocutor into an opponent who feels justified in responding aggressively to what they understandably perceive as an attack. Thus a pattern which is essentially defensive from the point of view of the Six, is often perceived as an assault by those on the receiving end.

Sixes - the enneagram ...info from the underground
For me it sometimes borders on needing anger management courses. At other times it feels like I am *disrupting the peace* in a certain situation between friends..

How do other 6s feel about this?
 
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MOTM Nov 2010
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I feel that this is a much better course of action:

:tongue:
 
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I think ultimitly I have my opinion's and ultimitly I want to be fair. I can be a real b*** sometimes actually, but ultimitly I do care. Does that make sense? ha. How can we trust anything but our skeptism? That seems to be right more than anything else, at least from my experience.
 

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MOTM Nov 2010
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I think ultimitly I have my opinion's and ultimitly I want to be fair. I can be a real b*** sometimes actually, but ultimitly I do care. Does that make sense? ha. How can we trust anything but our skeptism? That seems to be right more than anything else, at least from my experience.
Okay, sorry if I'm about to play devil's advocate with your post. :tongue: I'm wondering though if your bitchiness is really perceived as "bitchiness"? Perhaps you are prone to weighing your actions heavily and scrutinizing them?

Just when I think I've finally released myself to full "bitchiness", I tend to hear "Wow. Whatever. That was mild." Constant self-scrutiny as well. Scanning for unfairness in myself and others.

I think I can let my devil's advocating go all the way down the road if I don't stop myself. But something usually happens somewhere along the way. Something eventually tells me things are at a point where it's better to "let it go". I get some sort of vision of the future chain of events. I can tell what needs to be done is done.

I don't think I ever get to the point of needing anger management. But I do tend to over-extend myself trying to make sure I've set others on a path of playing with each other or me fairly before I let go. But when I do this, I don't feel like I'm the most likable person. I'm not trying to be. And sometimes I will feel like it's even better if others hate me. I get driven and think it's about the 'greater mission". :angry:
 

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Yeah, when I reflect on my poetry this makes sense. It can either be contradictory or a sad story with a happy ending.Different/Indifferent (contradictory but thats how I felt) Oh, and its very bitter at times. Like... no matter the lovely life were going to die, kind of rhetoric.

I have poems that explore the problems. I have problem solving poems. Its like retrieving the jewels from the rocks. I just need to learn to throw the rocks aside and I think Ill be okay.
 

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I can't really say off the top of my head. Compared to other people I know, i'm not much of a shit stirrer. Sometimes I push peoples buttons. It's that desire for a reaction. I think I have a problem with bringing to the surface other peoples motivations. Sometimes I actually think I project on other people (I just realised that just then :\). When I am unsure and questioning my own motivations, I question others. If I don't confront them, I remain in doubt of them and continue with a negative view point. When I do question them, I have a much more healthy approach because my accusations have the opportunity to be objectively tested and the person can answer back. Problem is, I don't accept the persons answers either, I don't want to hear anything other than what I think to be the real truth. There's nothing that gets someone more riled up as telling them you think they are lying. I've been on the opposite end of this, and it's not fun being told from an outsider they know you better than you do, and you're just deceiving yourself. I try not to do this, because I know what it's like to be drilled and distrusted. It doesn't feel good. Sometimes the questioner is not as right as they think they are, and indeed they can be flat out grossly incorrect. They based their conclusions on a piece of information they've misinterpreted and run with it.
Everyday I hold back on throwing something into the mix I know is going to get a reaction. It's so unconscious though, it's hard to explicate. I know I have the desire too, but often even though I want the reaction, I never think I can handle the backlash, so I want to run (or at least re group before I face the fire). I think i've repressed most of this 'pot stirring' and condemned it for being 'wrong'. i'm always too focussed on doing what I think is right and also not getting into trouble. When I know people can take it, I will no doubt question. Otherwise, I keep it inside. Often times I keep it all within.

My sister is a fairly immature 6, and goes way too far every time. To the point where people are really quite emotionally damaged. Sometimes what she says and does is completely unnecessary.
 

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For me it sometimes borders on needing anger management courses. At other times it feels like I am *disrupting the peace* in a certain situation between friends..

How do other 6s feel about this?
Apparently I have Oppositional Defiance Disorder. I am actually in sales, and there is this guy at my company who gives you something called a "DISC assessment test", and the guy is a sales coach. From what I've seen, it seems to put the MBTI to shame. It analyzes different aspects of one's personality, and it has really shown me a lot about myself. The classes that I take from this guy have been better for me than any therapist I've ever seen. I'm so glad that I've ran into this guy.

Anyway, I often break the rules and the norms and it really pisses people off. I constant challenge authority as well. Hell, I almost quit my job last week because authority challenged me too much, and I fought it. Yet sometimes, authority will scare the hell out of me as well. It's a very complicated thing.
 
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I don't really go out of my way to advocate for the devil, but I definitely do it. I suppose my Fi could kick in and cause me to go against the norm because it's a value, but that's not quite what we're talking about. The definition is such:

http://dictionary.com/ said:
devil's advocate 
–noun
1. a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination.
http://wikipedia.org said:
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.
I do that a lot: say things I don't necessarily mean or believe. It's for various reasons... usually a search for the truth, on rare occassions just for fun. But it confuses people because it falls under the "I say what I mean but I don't mean what I say" catagory. I "have" to do it to find out the truth, but doing so really offsets people, meaning it can raise a whole slew of other problems.
 

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I don't really go out of my way to advocate for the devil, but I definitely do it. I suppose my Fi could kick in and cause me to go against the norm because it's a value, but that's not quite what we're talking about. The definition is such:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com
devil's advocate 
–noun
1. a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination.
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.
I do that a lot: say things I don't necessarily mean or believe. It's for various reasons... usually a search for the truth, on rare occassions just for fun. But it confuses people because it falls under the "I say what I mean but I don't mean what I say" catagory. I "have" to do it to find out the truth, but doing so really offsets people, meaning it can raise a whole slew of other problems.
I relate wholly to this, paradigm. I actually really feel compelled to argue things I don't necessarily believe. I actually enjoy debating intellectually or otherwise. Sometimes I think I fall into the trap of logical fallacies though, heh. It doesn't matter as much to me sometimes though. It's not that I'm actually making an argument from my perspective, it's that I'm "questioning" their position. Trying to get them to refine it. Sometimes if I see a potential viewpoint not being raised, regardless of whether I think it's true or not, I will sometimes bring it up to 'fill the void'.
 

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I don't really go out of my way to advocate for the devil, but I definitely do it. I suppose my Fi could kick in and cause me to go against the norm because it's a value, but that's not quite what we're talking about. The definition is such:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com
devil's advocate 
–noun
1. a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.
I do that a lot: say things I don't necessarily mean or believe. It's for various reasons... usually a search for the truth, on rare occassions just for fun. But it confuses people because it falls under the "I say what I mean but I don't mean what I say" catagory. I "have" to do it to find out the truth, but doing so really offsets people, meaning it can raise a whole slew of other problems.

After reading your post; I didn't realize I actually did this. ^
But I seem to only do this with people who posses Fe; it's just so hard to get a straight answer/arguement from these people.
 

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I relate wholly to this, paradigm. I actually really feel compelled to argue things I don't necessarily believe. I actually enjoy debating intellectually or otherwise. Sometimes I think I fall into the trap of logical fallacies though, heh. It doesn't matter as much to me sometimes though. It's not that I'm actually making an argument from my perspective, it's that I'm "questioning" their position. Trying to get them to refine it. Sometimes if I see a potential viewpoint not being raised, regardless of whether I think it's true or not, I will sometimes bring it up to 'fill the void'.
Yes, exactly. That's what I wanted to say, but I haven't slept in twenty hours! It's damned hard to play devil's advocate with someone who is very dependent on logic, as they always seem to instantly pick up on the fallacies and nit-pick your argument to... heck. But when you get someone fun to debate with (my person is an INTP 9w1 :happy:), devil's advocating is really fun, sort of like an outlet for the desire. I think as an INFP, I'm a little sensitive to how I sound and how the other person might react. Then again, like I mentioned in another thread, I get "foot in mouth syndrome" a lot, too...

After reading your post; I didn't realize I actually did this. ^
But I seem to only do this with people who posses Fe; it's just so hard to get a straight answer/arugement from these people.
In a way, I know what you mean. It feels like an Fi user will simply not share what they think while an Fe user will act like it's perfectly fine to (always) follow the group. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but it's a matter of understanding them. Fe is wonderful for getting people to work together; Fi is great for empathizing with others.
 

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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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I'm trying to remember what I posted here before the role back...a couple of months ago.
I feel as if I naturally want to approach people in a very attacking manner when trying to expose the inconsistencies in their words. But I am able to keep myself from being so brutal, thankfully. As far as devil-advocating goes, I don't really see myself as adopting different positions in trying to expose the inconsistencies. I think when I do approach people in these instances, I more-so come off as not having a position at all. Like...'if you said xxxxx, then why yyyy?'.
 

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I used to do that so badly that I pissed off everyone around me and all my friends stopped talking to me...

I'd be all like, "OMG WHY ARE YOU CHEATING ON HER? THAT'S SO WRONG, WHAT THE FUCK? YOU'RE SORRY? NO! YKNOW WHAT? THAT'S NOT OKAY. YOU CAN'T JUST SAY YOU'RE SORRY CUZ YOU'RE A JERK DUDE. YOU SHOULD GO TO JAIL, OR GET RAPED, OR I SHOULD PUNCH YOU IN THE GROIN."

And he'd be like, "What the hell, who are you?"

And I'd be like, "You don't know me, but I noticed that you're cheating on your girlfriend, who I think I met once. GO TO HELL!!!"

And he'd be like, "She's not even my girlfriend."

And I'd be all like, "Well... well you're still a dick. DICK."
 

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I've only taken it far a couple times, and by far I mean irreparable damage cause I went over the threshold mentioned earlier, when you know you should stop and choose wether to back off and settle for less, or go on and come out ablaze. I guess I was a bit trollish/fed up to begin with both times. It had piled up (the injustice, abuse, self-righteousness) and the mediation I was pushing for had became a joke. It looked like I had no ovaries (balls). Last time I did it was last year when I went on with a point of view mostly made up on the spot just to turn this assertive person against themselves and reveal how all their accusations were in fact self-accusatory. Now I'm sure less cautious types do this all the time - spit fire on others at will - but that's just not what a 6 is built for. And haha yes, we might think we exaggerate while others call us mild. Pffft! So I'm going to doubt I even took it too far to begin with. My satisfaction remains in knowing I've shaken the bush well enough to make the scars worth and the berries sweet. :tongue:
 

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THE IRON GIANT
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I've learned to put a lot of energy into resisting the urge to play the devil's advocate. If someone doesn't directly ask me for my opinion, and I don't see mortal danger for anyone, I try really hard to take a breath and walk away (though I don't always succeed in keeping my stupid mouth shut). It's what's best for myself and for my relationships.
 

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I devil advocate quite alot that its not funny. The way I see it is that im just sewing a few seeds into people's heads and think that this is where good change begins, by getting others to see things differently. I don't always see it as a bad thing, its the way you say it though otherwise you will end up sounding like a moral tyrant and that would be counterproductive.
I don't like to start arguments for the sake of it, I just wan't to get to the root of it and show them how they're logic is inconsistant.
 
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