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Discussion Starter #1
As ENTPs, we suck in the corporate world. Right now I'm waiting to be fired from probably one of the most toxic environments I've ever been in. I could really write a novel on the last 3 years, but the just of it basically I work in IT and had a boss who never actually did IT work, was absentee unless he wanted to wrongfully implement something based on vendor promises. He'd listen to the vendor and not consult us and we'd be stuck cleaning up the mess. One of his projects cost the agency around $50,000 in PC lease overages because he failed to secure a contract in over 7 months. We were effectively double leading.

Then he expects me to work 80 hours a week a month straight going all over Texas deploying computers to cover it up. I fought back, he wrote me up, I filed a grievance and HR got involved. Normally he never responds to emails and now he starts responding a bit more under HR pressure. Then he tries this management tactic of making us peer review each other on a 1-10 scale for performance, attendance, and teamwork. Instead of giving us a paper to fill out, he makes us go one on one in his office and fills it out on his computer with on the spot verbal answers with no subjective criteria.

I refused to play his game that day. The next day (yesterday) I took his criteria and then wrote a review on him. Instead of going behind my coworkers backs like he did, I emailed it directly to him, CC'd the rest of my coworkers, his boss, the director of HR, the assistant directory of the agency, and the director of the agency. I rated him a 1 on everything and wrote a bunch of reasons why he is incompetent as a manager.

Well a little while later he told me to go home. He said he'd call at 10am the next day. Looks like upper management has taken up the case, but in the meantime it sounds like they locked my accounts out and everything and are preparing to fire me. The 10am call turned into, "Well we're waiting on stuff." It's almost 4:30PM and I have yet to hear back. I guess technically I'm still employed and have been sitting around the house doing stuff, but I really just want this to be over.

I've been fired from 2 other jobs in the past and am wondering how many any other ENTP's have been fired from jobs, how many jobs have they been fired from, and do they have any epic stories behind it?
 

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Hm ... perhaps you are lucky and the management is going to fire him instead of you, if your bunch of reasons is well-written. I don't have exactly similar experiences in my past, but usually I write to the top management why I couldn't proceed as it is and then, after nothing happens, I quit. But only from part-time jobs, in the main time I am my own boss.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hm ... perhaps you are lucky and the management is going to fire him instead of you, if your bunch of reasons is well-written. I don't have exactly similar experiences in my past, but usually I write to the top management why I couldn't proceed as it is and then, after nothing happens, I quit. But only from part-time jobs, in the main time I am my own boss.
I mean it definitely could be. My boss has wasted countless money for the agency. The upper management is new to the agency due to a scandal, so they're looking to clean out the agency. Maybe this is just a cooling off period while they fire him. Who knows though. I really wish they'd let me know something other than "sit at home and hang tight".
 

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Well a little while later he told me to go home. He said he'd call at 10am the next day. Looks like upper management has taken up the case, but in the meantime it sounds like they locked my accounts out and everything and are preparing to fire me. The 10am call turned into, "Well we're waiting on stuff." It's almost 4:30PM and I have yet to hear back. I guess technically I'm still employed and have been sitting around the house doing stuff, but I really just want this to be over.
I've been in similar situations before but actually I've never fired (yet, although it might happen soon...). In my 9 jobs until date, i finished contract in 7, 2 I quit because I had another job (but no problems there). I had problems with my boss in two, in one I finished contract without having another job yet, in the other I finished contract and moved to another job immediately.

The reason for the conflict in my case is also similar in all cases, and similar to yours i guess: a kind of incompetent but very ambitious boss continuously taking profit and full credit of my work, my ideas and what it pisses more to me, my intuition. Then some harassment by my boss, followed with my boss to put me down, going full open conflict when I fight back, then escalating into trying to use HR against me. In the two cases I flighted back at HR level with everything at range, and -until now- then backed up.

So, first, cheers. That's very important. Keep your energy and health high, whatever it happens. Second, my suggestion is to fight back and don't let be put down ever. Better dead than slavery.
 
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So, first, cheers. That's very important. Keep your energy and health high, whatever it happens. Second, my suggestion is to fight back and don't let be put down ever. Better dead than slavery.
Thanks. That's the plan for me and I really think the delay in actually firing me is upper management doesn't know what to do since I technically did do everything by the books and went through the chain of command. I've had stellar performance reviews in the past to the point of being 1 of 2 people who got merit bonuses for the year and also there's a clear paper trail of multiple instances of my boss's incompetence and also all the corrective actions my boss took in the write up were subsequently reversed in writing literally a week later by his boss. What happens is an epic business case study and honestly I just want a resolution. Who knows right now, but I'll report back and, if I'm fired, the first thing I'm going to do is sit down and reflect on the last 3.5 years at this job, especially the last 6 months. Literally all this could be material for an Office Space 2 sequel.
 

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So after 1.5 working days, I've yet to be fired. This is just weird.
They cant fire you without just cause and proper steps.
Especially if they have an HR dep.

Any and I mean ANY change in your job state will allow you the option to decline it
and claim severance. If you want to leave that is.

You were hired to do job X. If they try and shift you AT ALL even to a diff
department...and especially if it is a drop in pay
and/or title change. You may politely refuse that. Leaving them no recourse.
They would either have to allow you to stay in your position at a rate of pay the
same as current. Failing that you can simply tell them that you do not
approve the change, which is fine they can still let you go but at that
point severance is a forgone conclusion.
All that said.. you have only been there for just shy of what..4 years?
Severance will not net you that much after 4 years really.

This of course only makes sense if you are adamant about leaving
in such a way that nets you an exit package.

This is all very ball parkish ..I can get more detailed if ya want.


Point of fact... I worked at a place where a guy got a promotion.
More money better vaca and what not. He didnt want it. They did not
want to push him back to line he worked on so he told them he did
not accept the change (even though it was more money). They
had to pay him out. It was cool.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
They cant fire you without just cause and proper steps.
Especially if they have an HR dep.

Any and I mean ANY change in your job state will allow you the option to decline it
and claim severance. If you want to leave that is.
Except this is Texas and it's at will employment. They literally can fire you for any reason. Really the only leg you have to stand on is the employee handbook creating a contract between you and the employer. If the employee handbook has procedures and they don't follow them, then you can get them for wrongful termination. Otherwise, this is the "land of freedom," which basically makes you SOL.
 

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Except this is Texas and it's at will employment. They literally can fire you for any reason. Really the only leg you have to stand on is the employee handbook creating a contract between you and the employer. If the employee handbook has procedures and they don't follow them, then you can get them for wrongful termination. Otherwise, this is the "land of freedom," which basically makes you SOL.
Yeah good old Texas.

I remember when I lived there ...now this is going back to the mid80's
but even still....well minimum wage was $3.25.


Side note after rereading a few things here.

Why give the guy all "1's" on your review of him?
That automatically would make me discredit your input
due to totally leaning clearly to a dislike of the man as appose to
an accurate assessment of him.

I get he may even be all "1's" but the visual on looking at that would speak volumes on
how you feel as appose to how it may or may not actually be.


When I rate my staff know-one gets 1's or 10's .
Highest I give is an 8 maybe a 9 lowest is a 3 maybe a 2.
Extremes seem unlikely.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah good old Texas.

I remember when I lived there ...now this is going back to the mid80's
but even still....well minimum wage was $3.25.


Side note after rereading a few things here.

Why give the guy all "1's" on your review of him?
That automatically would make me discredit your input
due to totally leaning clearly to a dislike of the man as appose to
an accurate assessment of him.

I get he may even be all "1's" but the visual on looking at that would speak volumes on
how you feel as appose to how it may or may not actually be.


When I rate my staff know-one gets 1's or 10's .
Highest I give is an 8 maybe a 9 lowest is a 3 maybe a 2.
Extremes seem unlikely.
I'd publish the email with redacted information, but am waiting on the investigation to complete. I finally got word from my boss's boss and actually have a halfway clue what going on. I've finally been told I've been suspended with pay during the investigation. My boss did a lot of shady stuff, including some possibly backhanded deals that ultimately backfired and cost the agency around $50-100,000 in wasted money. That was noted in my email so I have done a little research and see that it's standard to do this during investigations. The question is, how long the investigation will take. I have a phone call meeting at 3PM, so I guess I'll find out more there.
 

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I'd publish the email with redacted information, but am waiting on the investigation to complete. I finally got word from my boss's boss and actually have a halfway clue what going on. I've finally been told I've been suspended with pay during the investigation. My boss did a lot of shady stuff, including some possibly backhanded deals that ultimately backfired and cost the agency around $50-100,000 in wasted money. That was noted in my email so I have done a little research and see that it's standard to do this during investigations. The question is, how long the investigation will take. I have a phone call meeting at 3PM, so I guess I'll find out more there.
Thats awesome my man.

I love going through that kinda thing (less the financial scare when my kids needed me).

Well I know this one item for sure...no matter where you are from and/or work? Money talks.
If this guy is losing and more importantly costing the company money AND this can be
tracked? Well...he will lose. At that point it will be up to him to deflect the damage
down his chain of command. Of which it either becomes a he said she said..
and/or whoever has the better paper trail wins! I dont know the group at all
but it may also come down to who is who's best pal or friend outside of work.

I love for this kind of confrontation. It makes me feel alive.

Good luck my friend.

Let me know what happens if you feel you would like to.

Try and have some fun with it. This stuff doesn't happen all that often.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thats awesome my man.

I love going through that kinda thing (less the financial scare when my kids needed me).

Well I know this one item for sure...no matter where you are from and/or work? Money talks.
If this guy is losing and more importantly costing the company money AND this can be
tracked? Well...he will lose. At that point it will be up to him to deflect the damage
down his chain of command. Of which it either becomes a he said she said..
and/or whoever has the better paper trail wins! I dont know the group at all
but it may also come down to who is who's best pal or friend outside of work.

I love for this kind of confrontation. It makes me feel alive.

Good luck my friend.

Let me know what happens if you feel you would like to.

Try and have some fun with it. This stuff doesn't happen all that often.
Actually, I'm starting to hate being in limbo and not having an answer, but yeah I do find this a rare unique thing considering who literally does what I did (I guess that's the ENTP in me). There's literally new upper management tasked with cleaning up the corruption in the agency, so I have the paper trailer, this could end very badly for my boss. If I went to the papers it would be another sh*t storm like earlier this year: https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2017/07/07/two-more-tabc-officials-bite-the-dust
 

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Actually, I'm starting to hate being in limbo and not having an answer
Yeah, you are right. The waiting is hard. These kind of items always happen in
3 to 4 steps with a day or two in between each step. Us, as ENTP do not typically
handle that well as we have already seen the whole picture and can surmise the
one or two outcomes available. Its like sheesh ..just pick one already and
lets move on with life here people!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yeah, you are right. The waiting is hard. These kind of items always happen in
3 to 4 steps with a day or two in between each step. Us, as ENTP do not typically
handle that well as we have already seen the whole picture and can surmise the
one or two outcomes available. Its like sheesh ..just pick one already and
lets move on with life here people!
Then again, if my boss was truly doing shady stuff, there could be criminal wrongdoing. He did one time try to shut me up with that PC refresh vendor when I asked about labor estimates so I could put together a schedule for my trip planning. When they said they bid for 30-45 minutes per user, I said that would only get us through like 1/4 of the steps, but we could plan accordingly. My boss literally muted the speakerphone because it was a conference call and told me to keep quiet because he was trying to get more work out of them.

Basically, he was trying to withhold key information from them so they'd underbid and he'd look like a hero. Basically, insanely unethical. In addition, if a bid is over $50,000 you need like 2-3 other bids. He tried bypassing this process. Like I said, he could have broken some laws for all I know and that's what they're investigating.

On the other end of it, I literally ISTJ'd their procedures. I went through the chain of command as specified. My email to him technically was not unprofessional and by his just telling me to leave and implicitly firing me could be construed as retaliation for my HR complaint against him. When it comes to a paper trail, mine is extensive and, technically speaking, they might not know how they can fire me without it qualifying to wrongful termination. Several people say I have a pretty strong case.
 

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Basically, he was trying to withhold key information from them so they'd underbid and he'd look like a hero. Basically, insanely unethical. In addition, if a bid is over $50,000 you need like 2-3 other bids. He tried bypassing this process. Like I said, he could have broken some laws for all I know and that's what they're investigating.
Interesting. So your company has a policy where by
any bids over a certain amount must go to tender?
He is side stepping cooperate policy I would assume if that is the case.
Also he is, as you mention, breaking what could be state and/or federal competition
laws.

Heres the issue with that, assuming that is the case.
If they have to admit that they broke that
and it is a law..the company will bury it all. No chance they
will want that getting out it doesn't matter who is involved.
Well ...if they know whats good for them.

Best bet would be make you happy somehow so you do go to press.
Then they will go through proper due diligence to fire him proper like.

In Canada if a company circumvents competition law? Shit can hit the fan
pretty quick like. That's a big no no. The only monopolies we like in Canada
are retard Liberal governments. (low blow on the liberals there but yeah)

Damn dude. Wish I was doing what you are :/

I need that kinda excitement again.
 

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I got canned this Jan.

The company sold out from private to public. 20% of our crew either left or got fired. I liked and respected all of them. My attitude got bad, my work got lax, and I started full time seeking a new position. I stopped caring about the organization.

I was getting phone calls in the office from head hunters (who had to go through our secretary so everybody knew) and they just kinda helped me out the door. I was fired because, and I quote, "You gave up."

While technically correct, I contributed at least 10 times what they paid me altogether. I revamped my entire product line by increasing quality WHILE reducing costs, and they refused to pay me more than 50k. Add in the mandatory overtime and you get an over worked, over stressed asshole who wants to leave.

So in my mind I got burned. Bad. And for some reason, nobody wants to hire me.

Fucking chemistry man. I should've majored in engineering or IT.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Interesting. So your company has a policy where by
any bids over a certain amount must go to tender?
He is side stepping cooperate policy I would assume if that is the case.
Also he is, as you mention, breaking what could be state and/or federal competition
laws.

Heres the issue with that, assuming that is the case.
If they have to admit that they broke that
and it is a law..the company will bury it all. No chance they
will want that getting out it doesn't matter who is involved.
Well ...if they know whats good for them.

Best bet would be make you happy somehow so you do go to press.
Then they will go through proper due diligence to fire him proper like.

In Canada if a company circumvents competition law? Shit can hit the fan
pretty quick like. That's a big no no. The only monopolies we like in Canada
are retard Liberal governments. (low blow on the liberals there but yeah)

Damn dude. Wish I was doing what you are :/

I need that kinda excitement again.
My company is actually a state agency that regulates alcohol in Texas. Basically I work for the government. The policy is actually state law. I know this because I was explicitly told on a separate project that I had to get bids (basically to get this info I had to bypass him and go to his boss), if it went over $50,000 I needed to get at least 3 bids. Luckily, the bid came to under $50,000, so I was good, but my boss is well aware of this, even if he's playing dumb. For all I know this investigation could blow open a whole criminal investigation and the last time this kind of stuff happened earlier this year, people were actually testifying in front of the Texas House and Senate. I may have opened a can of worms like crazy.
 

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Also, if my boss was truly doing illegal stuff, I'm also protected under whistleblower status.
Actually -at least in europe- retaliation does not depend in how big is actually the fault that you are denouncing, but in how hard they attack you. In other words, if one can prove a link between firing and one's denounce, even the denounce was so "weak" as "my boss is stealing some buck of the office coffe box", it is retaliation anyway.

Said that, be careful because even one is "legally right" it is not always easy to get this legality enforced. And at the end, the results depend just in the enforcement. So, never understimate your enemy nor overstimate your position.

Related to this, my humble suggestion is meanwhile you are awaiting someone’s important and bussy decision -that I fully agree is not very healthy for anyone- why you don't kept yourself busy searching for good legal help or at least to know the procedures you have to follow to enforce this legality ?. Some ideas:

*procedure to follow:
- do you know if you need a lawyer for a 1st labor court hearing or can you do it by yourself ?
- Is anything similar to an administrative hearing before going to real court in your system ?
- If you need really a labor lawyer, why don't start now "shopping" for it ?

* materials:
- If tomorrow you were going to court, do you have all materials ready ?
- do you have ready a written a summary/case description ?
- do you have ordered the comunications/emails/etc.. that document the case? Do you have a safe backup of them (tip: gmail) ?

* strategy:
- does your boss had issues before with other people in a position similar to yours ? Can you get their coordinates ? Can you reach them ?
- what about your boss enemies? whom can be also interest in making your boss loss ? what about that companies that loss the bid?
- can you use media in your cause? (be careful it can backfire your in difammation charges)
- can you use politics in your cause ? can you avoid or take steps to decrease use of political influence against you ?

* self heath
- are you mentally and physically prepared?
- do you have an emotional net ready to support you ?

Btw, your situation looks very similar to mine actually.. Just I'm a little bit before than you in the timeline.

Cheers!
 
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