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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So it came up in another thread that a lot of people of other temperaments tend to view SJ's as pretty rigid and stuck in their ways. I know that for me, in some ways this is true and in some ways it's not. I do think the IF in me does make me hesitant to try new things and have new experiences, but I also think I'm good at empathizing with people and using that to see another side of an issue, making it easier for me to change my mind about something in discussions.


I have an ESTJ friend that's kind of interesting in that regard. For a while I thought he was a P because he seems pretty open to experiencing new things. However, when he took an MBTI assessment, he came out to be a very strong J. He kind of explained it to me a little...he's gone through a lot of different transitions in life, and that's made him more adaptable. He's also a major people person, so I think the E in him really motivates him to meet new people and enjoy doing things with them.

However, he does so many things that he uses a lot of organization and planning to fit everything in, and that's where you see the J in him come out. So I think he doesn't mind doing new things, it's just that he has to have them planned out really well, and there's only so much he's willing to change at the last minute.



So in general, how open to change are you? I know this is dependent on what you're talking about, so we can look at it from multiple angles.

So first off, how easy is it for you to try new things and have new experiences?

Second, how set in your habits are you?

Third, how adaptable are you when it comes to how you work and how you relate to other people?

Fourth, how open are you to new ways of thinking? Like, if you're having a discussion (especially a "big picture" one that's really theoretical), how easy is it for you to consider what the other person is saying and try to think about things in a new way?


And finally, do you think other people tend to find you overbearing or too rigid for them?



So I'm just kind of curious how different SJ types are similar and different when it comes to our comfort in structure and order, and how that affects our ability to change.
 

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*takes over thread* Muahaha. ISTJ material :laughing:

But, I really only change unless I have a legitmate reason that it's either better, cheaper, faster, you know; whatever that makes it better from the past method I used to use.

As for trying something like skydiving, or yoga instead of running...I wouldn't exactly be thrilled about it..but you know...peer pressure does wonders. :bored:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
*takes over thread* Muahaha. ISTJ material :laughing:

But, I really only change unless I have a legitmate reason that it's either better, cheaper, faster, you know; whatever that makes it better from the past method I used to use.

As for trying something like skydiving, or yoga instead of running...I wouldn't exactly be thrilled about it..but you know...peer pressure does wonders. :bored:
Well, I actually almost posted this just in the SJ forum, since it applies to all SJ's...it's just I feel like I have a lot in common with ISTJ's, understand ESFJ's pretty well, and of course know a lot about ISFJ's. Being the most different from me, ESTJ's are the ones I'm most curious about, especially because of my ESTJ friend I mentioned who seemed to be a lot more open to change than I am.


But your response is exactly what I would expect an ISTJ to say. I actually think about things in a very similar way, and I know ISTJ's and ISFJ's are probably more similar to each other than they are to any other type. (I also think I can have some strong T elements, and one time I did test as an ISTJ).
 

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So first off, how easy is it for you to try new things and have new experiences?
If I'm doing it with someone else, I'm much more likely to try something new. Also, I have to be assured that it's not going to be too risky to myself or others.

Second, how set in your habits are you?
My habits can change if they have to, but it is uncomfortable for me until I get used to the new norm.

Third, how adaptable are you when it comes to how you work and how you relate to other people?
I might come back to this one...

Fourth, how open are you to new ways of thinking? Like, if you're having a discussion (especially a "big picture" one that's really theoretical), how easy is it for you to consider what the other person is saying and try to think about things in a new way?
If I'm on the fence about something, I'm pretty open-minded. I am always willing to listen to what other people have to say; but if I have a strong opinion about something I am unlikely to change my mind.


And finally, do you think other people tend to find you overbearing or too rigid for them?
I try to exude friendliness, flexibility, and acceptance. I don't know how well I succeed. I want to be liked. But pretending to be something I'm not is difficult and stressful (maybe this can be applied to question 3 as well).
 

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So first off, how easy is it for you to try new things and have new experiences?

I'm open to new foods, new wines, and new places to travel (IF they have been approved after internet search results). I hate watching new movies, listening to new CD's, or trying out new designs in my clothes. My friends usually force me into that kind of stuff. I love trying new physical activities though, just to say I've done it. I have gone skydiving, swimming with sharks, I get extremely seasick but I'll still go anywhere on a yacht...


Second, how set in your habits are you?

My habits change as my situation changes. But I'm a professional at changing them at a moment's notice if the need arises. I think this is due to my military experience. Adaptation and situational awareness!


Third, how adaptable are you when it comes to how you work and how you relate to other people?

I am a massage therapist, so I love the clients I've had the longest. I don't mind new ones, but it takes a while for me to form attachments. I kind of go into robot mode when I have a lot of new clients (usually in the winter, when it's season in South Florida). I become a massaging machine and kind of go into auto-pilot.


Fourth, how open are you to new ways of thinking? Like, if you're having a discussion (especially a "big picture" one that's really theoretical), how easy is it for you to consider what the other person is saying and try to think about things in a new way?

I don't. lol. I hate Chemistry more than just about anything in the world because it's theoretical. My tutors have the most difficult time teaching it to me. I actually tend to get a headache when reading posts by XNFP's because what they write seems absolutely ludacris to me! The sentences don't make sense...


And finally, do you think other people tend to find you overbearing or too rigid for them?

I consider this "scaring away the weak ones." I try to associate with like-minded people with similar goals. I don't really ever even notice when people don't like me. I only find out through my friends. I really don't care though. I know I'm good at what I do and I am very good at helping my friends achieve their goals as well. People NEED structure in their lives! My friends in college who want to get into medical school come to me when they need help focusing because I get results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
KrystRay, I found your answers to be extremely fascinating, because it's almost the opposite of me. I certainly don't want to simplify it down to the fact that I'm an ISFJ and you're an ESTJ, but it's very interesting to see how we both have a certain desire for structure and rigidity, but in quite different ways.




So first off, how easy is it for you to try new things and have new experiences?

I'm open to new foods, new wines, and new places to travel (IF they have been approved after internet search results). I hate watching new movies, listening to new CD's, or trying out new designs in my clothes. My friends usually force me into that kind of stuff. I love trying new physical activities though, just to say I've done it. I have gone skydiving, swimming with sharks, I get extremely seasick but I'll still go anywhere on a yacht...
You sound kind of like the ESTJ friend I mentioned. He's also very open to foods, wines, travelling, sports, and experiences. I think he's a little more open to new movies and music than you are, but probably not extremely.

I, on the other hand, get pretty nervous about doing a lot of those new things. If I have someone to ease me along, I'm more likely to try it...but it's almost like I have a fear of it. I can't help but think the E/I and T/F differences play into that.


KrystRay said:
Second, how set in your habits are you?

[qutoe="KrystRay"]My habits change as my situation changes. But I'm a professional at changing them at a moment's notice if the need arises. I think this is due to my military experience. Adaptation and situational awareness!
Again, you sound like my ESTJ friend, and again, I have more trouble changing my habits. I hate to do it.

However, I can't help but think this is a matter of coincidence and personal choice. I don't really see why this would be true for ESTJ's and not true for ISFJ's. It is an interesting coincidence, though.


KrystRay said:
Third, how adaptable are you when it comes to how you work and how you relate to other people?

I am a massage therapist, so I love the clients I've had the longest. I don't mind new ones, but it takes a while for me to form attachments. I kind of go into robot mode when I have a lot of new clients (usually in the winter, when it's season in South Florida). I become a massaging machine and kind of go into auto-pilot.
This sounds just like me. Takes me a while to warm up to people, but sometimes I let my SJ routines take over and go into "auto pilot".


KrystRay said:
Fourth, how open are you to new ways of thinking? Like, if you're having a discussion (especially a "big picture" one that's really theoretical), how easy is it for you to consider what the other person is saying and try to think about things in a new way?

I don't. lol. I hate Chemistry more than just about anything in the world because it's theoretical. My tutors have the most difficult time teaching it to me. I actually tend to get a headache when reading posts by XNFP's because what they write seems absolutely ludacris to me! The sentences don't make sense...
And again, here's where we're kind of opposite, but this unlike last time, here's where I think I'm more open to change than you are.

I think a lot of this is the T/F difference. In general I think F's can relate to other people more easily and are more likely to take into account where they come from. If T's don't see the logic in what the person's saying, they're more likely to dismiss them, whereas I think an F will be a little more likely to hear them out.

Of course, I think part of this is down to individuals as well. I've mentioned a few times that I think I've developed my Ne pretty well over the years because I don't seem to have as much trouble understanding and relating to N's as much as many SJ's seem to.


KrystRay said:
And finally, do you think other people tend to find you overbearing or too rigid for them?

I consider this "scaring away the weak ones." I try to associate with like-minded people with similar goals. I don't really ever even notice when people don't like me. I only find out through my friends. I really don't care though.

Here's definitely another case where I see ESTJ's and ISFJ's being vastly different. I think ESTJ's tend to come across as the most overbearing of the SJ types because their E makes them more outspoken and their T makes them less likely to be as sensitive or akin to what others think.

What's funny is that I see it as mix of strength and a weakness on both sides. The upside to an ESTJ is that they're more confident and less fazed by the negative thoughts of others, making them strong leaders and leading them to get results. The downside, however, is it makes them less open to hearing what others have to say, less empathetic, and more likely to have trouble learning from people different than them.

For an ISFJ, it's the exact opposite. Their upside is that they're easier to get along with, better listeners, and more likely to be able to understand other types of people. Their downside is they get pushed around and taken for granted a lot more, and they have more confidence issues.



KrystRay said:
I know I'm good at what I do and I am very good at helping my friends achieve their goals as well. People NEED structure in their lives! My friends in college who want to get into medical school come to me when they need help focusing because I get results.
Here's where I can see why the other temperaments have problems with SJ's. ;) Once again, what you're saying here shows the value of SJ's and where they're at their biggest strength, which is working hard and providing structure for people. It's the thing that the other temperaments tend to value most in SJ's and say is the biggest area they can learn fro them.

But the flipside to it is that this is usually very work related. People do need some structure in their lives, but I think the other temperaments flourish with less structure than SJ's, and that we need more than they do. There are times when they turn to us to provide that, but there are also times when we need to turn to them to loosen up and relax. We're probably the biggest workaholics of the four temperaments and sometimes get obsessed with it, not to mention structuring our families, friendships,and leisure activity too much sometimes.




So this was very interesting. The neat thing is that these two SJ types can learn from each other. ISFJ's can learn to push their own comfort levels in trying new experiences (something ESTJ's seem to have less trouble with), whereas ESTJ's can learn to be more empathetic and listen more to what other people have to say (something ISFJ's seem to have less trouble with).

Like always, I know I'm jumping to conclusions a bit based only on this one post, but I do see general patterns that seem to fit. Again, it's really neat to me how our structure as SJ's comes across in different ways, and I'm always fascinated how two types can have so much in common yet also so much that's different.
 
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So in general, how open to change are you? I know this is dependent on what you're talking about, so we can look at it from multiple angles.
I like to try new things and get new experience. There are lots of things I want to try to do or experience: food, friends, environment, clothes, movies, songs, traveling, events, and sports (skydiving, parachute, bungee jumping, air balloon, diving, kayaking, climbing, etc).

There are 3 things I do not willing to change: my religion, my area of expertise at work, and my high standards for choosing the right guy. LOL


So first off, how easy is it for you to try new things and have new experiences?
When trying new things, I like to have well preparation. I have to know all informations about that thing. Like when I want to try new food, I have to know the ingredients and how the food was cooked (in general). When I want to traveling to a new place, I have to know where I will spend the night, what will I probably do there, what I want to see, how much the cost, etc.

Second, how set in your habits are you?
From scale 1 to 10, I'd say I'm 70% set. I have clothes schedule for work, I have my own routines every morning, I have my usual sites to visit, etc. I also have life goals to achieve, and I'm in the process of preparing myself to achieve those goals.

Third, how adaptable are you when it comes to how you work and how you relate to other people?
I'm pretty much adaptable. You won't hear my colleagues talking about me behind my back, they always remember to invite me to their parties, and they are comfortable telling me their secrets or problems because they trust me. I keep my words, I accept people for what they are, yet I can be very assertive when it comes to certain things at work.

Fourth, how open are you to new ways of thinking? Like, if you're having a discussion (especially a "big picture" one that's really theoretical), how easy is it for you to consider what the other person is saying and try to think about things in a new way?
I'd say I'm pretty open minded, except when it comes to my basic principal and religious matter. I'm not saying I disagree with new ways regarding those matters, I'm saying that I will not change, because once I've made my decision, there is no way back. But I can understand and accept what others want to do or believe in their life, because I believe that "to each their own".

And finally, do you think other people tend to find you overbearing or too rigid for them?
Assertive, yes, lots of time. Overbearing/rigid? I don't think so. At least I never heard anyone said that to me. In fact, I often hear my friends/colleagues says that they feel comfortable around me.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Great post, WickedQueen. What's especially good about it for me is that it's keeping me from falling into the trap I fall into of starting to put people of types together, jumping to too many conclusions, and assuming things too quickly about people. I think that I get a lot of pleasure in having things being organized and consistent, and it's an exciting thought to be able to learn things about people just by knowing their type. Because of that, it's easy for me to get carried away, and it's very helpful to see how your answers are similar and different than KrystRay's.

I like to try new things and get new experience. There are lots of things I want to try to do or experience: food, friends, environment, clothes, movies, songs, traveling, events, and sports (skydiving, parachute, bungee jumping, air balloon, diving, kayaking, climbing, etc).

There are 3 things I do not willing to change: my religion, my area of expertise at work, and my high standards for choosing the right guy. LOL


When trying new things, I like to have well preparation. I have to know all informations about that thing. Like when I want to try new food, I have to know the ingredients and how the food was cooked (in general). When I want to traveling to a new place, I have to know where I will spend the night, what will I probably do there, what I want to see, how much the cost, etc.


This is one of the consistencies that I am kind of seeing among ESTJ's, at least compared to me as an ISFJ. (Of course, as I said before, I'm reminding myself that there's not necessarily a direct correlation to type, but the pattern does appear to be there!). Even though I'm pretty open to new experiences, I don't think I am as much as the average ESTJ. My ESTJ friend sounds very much like you in this regard. As I said before, I think E lends itself to people getting energy from others, and I think that can open up more opportunities for new experiences as well.

WickedQueen said:
From scale 1 to 10, I'd say I'm 70% set. I have clothes schedule for work, I have my own routines every morning, I have my usual sites to visit, etc. I also have life goals to achieve, and I'm in the process of preparing myself to achieve those goals.
Sounds pretty much like me in regards to work. I tend to get pretty set in my own just day to day habits too, though, just out of pure comfort. I feel more at peace with consistent habits.

WickedQueen said:
I'm pretty much adaptable. You won't hear my colleagues talking about me behind my back, they always remember to invite me to their parties, and they are comfortable telling me their secrets or problems because they trust me. I keep my words, I accept people for what they are, yet I can be very assertive when it comes to certain things at work.
WickedQueen said:
I'd say I'm pretty open minded, except when it comes to my basic principal and religious matter. I'm not saying I disagree with new ways regarding those matters, I'm saying that I will not change, because once I've made my decision, there is no way back. But I can understand and accept what others want to do or believe in their life, because I believe that "to each their own".

Assertive, yes, lots of time. Overbearing/rigid? I don't think so. At least I never heard anyone said that to me. In fact, I often hear my friends/colleagues says that they feel comfortable around me.
Ok, since your answers here do seem to be quite different than KrysRay's, I have some follow up questions for you:

1. Do you find that you're less overbearing/rigid and more open-minded than most ESTJ's that you know? Basically, do you think most ESTJ's are like you in this regard, or do you think you're more the exception than the rule?

2. If your answer to 1 was "Yes, I'm different than most ESTJ's", why do you think that is? Have you always been this way, or was it something you developed? How could other ESTJ's learn to be more flexible and less set in their ways?

3. If your answer to 1 was "No, I think most ESTJ's are more like me", then why do you think other temperaments tend to view SJ's as rigid, unwilling to listen, and difficult to have discussions with? I know that ESTJ's probably care less about what others think of them than I do, but I'm still very curious about this. I guess I just like to use other temperaments' outside perspectives in order to help see my own areas of improvement, and this is part of that.


Great answers, and I look forward to hearing more! This is all so fascinating to me.
 
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I don't care, I am ISTJ i wanted to answer this lol


So in general, how open to change are you? I know this is dependent on what you're talking about, so we can look at it from multiple angles.


- In general, I love change! I am very open to it. For me, change symbolizes a fresh start, a clear mind, a clean sate, or even improvement.


So first off, how easy is it for you to try new things and have new experiences?

- it's easier for me if I am with someone to try something new, but I wouldn't limit it to that. I have been known to go to the movies by myself lol- I like to go exploring new areas by myself too and then I might experience what I see is offered with someone I know.



Second, how set in your habits are you?

- not very set. I am always looking to improve upon my methods. I might gradually change them as opposed to drastically, but I am always open to new 'habits' if you will



Third, how adaptable are you when it comes to how you work and how you relate to other people?

- this is kinda vague, but generally I am pretty adaptable. I will try my best to include everyones needs while promoting efficiency and flow




Fourth, how open are you to new ways of thinking? Like, if you're having a discussion (especially a "big picture" one that's really theoretical), how easy is it for you to consider what the other person is saying and try to think about things in a new way?

- I love new ways of thinking. I get stuck sometimes and can't make myself see other sides, so when I can come to a realization with a discussion with someone else, then that is awesome!




And finally, do you think other people tend to find you overbearing or too rigid for them?

- nope. people call me very self-disciplined, but that only applies to me with myself, not others





... my likeness of change could be due to that fact that big changes in my life were always positive, as I know it is an SJ thing to be not as adaptable, but I don't know, I like change.
 

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Ok, since your answers here do seem to be quite different than KrysRay's, I have some follow up questions for you:

1. Do you find that you're less overbearing/rigid and more open-minded than most ESTJ's that you know? Basically, do you think most ESTJ's are like you in this regard, or do you think you're more the exception than the rule?

2. If your answer to 1 was "Yes, I'm different than most ESTJ's", why do you think that is? Have you always been this way, or was it something you developed? How could other ESTJ's learn to be more flexible and less set in their ways?

3. If your answer to 1 was "No, I think most ESTJ's are more like me", then why do you think other temperaments tend to view SJ's as rigid, unwilling to listen, and difficult to have discussions with? I know that ESTJ's probably care less about what others think of them than I do, but I'm still very curious about this. I guess I just like to use other temperaments' outside perspectives in order to help see my own areas of improvement, and this is part of that.
Haha... good questions. The ESTJs I know pretty well in real life is about 2-3 friends. I think overall they are pretty open-minded, but like me, they are judgmental too.

I don't know with other ESTJs, but for me, let say when it comes to making a decision, I don't easily jump to conclusion. I want to see the matter from every angles the best I could. I also want to know other opinions about the matter. I think about the pro and cons, I questioning, I criticizing, I testing. The one thing I hate is to know that I'm wrong, because I don't like to change my decision.

So when I have made my decision, I must be sure that I've made the best decision. Ans once I've made my decision, I don't look back or questioning my decision. And I made it as my basic principle to act or make a future plan. And you're damn stupid if you're trying to change my mind and ruin my plans once I have made it set.

When others trying to debate me about the decision I have made, I got offensive because I feel like they insulting my ability/intelligence to see things from different angles (being objective) and belittling my will to keep my words. That, most of the times, is what makes me look stubborn/rigid/unwilling to listen/difficult to have discussions with.

Examples:
I'm a Muslim and I'm wearing a hijabi. Others who don't know me will says that I'm brainwashed/stupid for having Islam as my religion, and thinking that I'm weak because I wear a hijabi as a symbol of male repression/domination on women.

What they don't know is, I have learn everything about this religions for more than 15 years. I don't just jump on conclusion easily. I questioning, I criticize, I compare, I argue/debate, I study, and I experience everything. It took a long time for me to finally choose this religion to be my belief. It took a long time for me and a huge sacrifice to finally willing to wear hijabi. Even my parents were against me when I decided to wear it. So it took a very long process for me to finally made my decision.

When others belittling me for being a Muslim women who wear hijabi, I got offended because I feel like they insulting my intelligence to see things logically and objectively, also insulting my ability to make the best decision for myself. They don't even know me or watch me going through a very hard time before I finally made my decisions. That's when you will see me being opinionated/rigid.

To answer your question on how to make an ESTJ more flexible with their opinions, you have to give them logical reasons on why we need to change our mind. We need objective facts to. What's the benefit of this new way for us and others? What make this new way better then the old way? Be careful not to belittling our old way and be careful to not make it sounds like our old way is the wrong way. ESTJs hate to be wrong, but we love to improve ourselves. Once we know that there is a better way and we feel confident to do this new way, you won't see us being rigid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I don't know with other ESTJs, but for me, let say when it comes to making a decision, I don't easily jump to conclusion. I want to see the matter from every angles the best I could. I also want to know other opinions about the matter. I think about the pro and cons, I questioning, I criticizing, I testing. The one thing I hate is to know that I'm wrong, because I don't like to change my decision.

So when I have made my decision, I must be sure that I've made the best decision. Ans once I've made my decision, I don't look back or questioning my decision. And I made it as my basic principle to act or make a future plan. And you're damn stupid if you're trying to change my mind and ruin my plans once I have made it set.

When others trying to debate me about the decision I have made, I got offensive because I feel like they insulting my ability/intelligence to see things from different angles (being objective) and belittling my will to keep my words. That, most of the times, is what makes me look stubborn/rigid/unwilling to listen/difficult to have discussions with.
Ah...I think you've mentioned something hugely important and enlightening here. I think it's something I had kind of thought about but either forgotten or never really been able to clearly identify.

I'm kind of like you in this regard and kind of not...I think it depends on the particular situation. Sometimes I make decisions very quickly just to have them settled, while other times I think them through very carefully before deciding and then sticking with it.

However, this seems to be completely a J issue. I would imagine NTP's and NFP's (and of course SP's) would find this behavior to be much more rigid than NTJ's and NFJ's. I don't really see how ISFJ's and ESTJ's would be different when it comes to making their decisions...I just think it's a variation of how their J affects them.



WickedQueen said:
To answer your question on how to make an ESTJ more flexible with their opinions, you have to give them logical reasons on why we need to change our mind. We need objective facts to. What's the benefit of this new way for us and others? What make this new way better then the old way? Be careful not to belittling our old way and be careful to not make it sounds like our old way is the wrong way. ESTJs hate to be wrong, but we love to improve ourselves. Once we know that there is a better way and we feel confident to do this new way, you won't see us being rigid.
This is also extremely fascinating to me, and here's why: I feel the exact same way in a very different context.

You know how I mentioned in KrystRay's post about how I got the impression that for me as an ISFJ, I have a harder time changing when it comes to experiencing new things, whereas an ESTJ might have a harder time changing when it comes to considering a new view point? (I know that this may very well not be accurate, but let me ride it for the sake of my point)

The way I feel about taking on new experiences is very similar to what you just said about changing you mind about a new way of doing things....except it's based on my personal feelings rather than the objective facts that you mentioned.

For example, if someone wants me to try going to a new place, or to try doing a new activity, if I can feel confident that it's going to be a good thing, or that I'm confident that I know I'll like it, or that I'm confident that it's going to feel good then I'm very likely to try it out. But if someone can't show me why it's going to be just as fun as the things I already like to do, I'm going to find it to be a huge waste of time and I'm not going to want to take the risk. That is where I get very rigid and stubborn.

So it's very similar to what you described concerning being open to a new way of thinking, and I think that's a huge key to SJ's craving of routine:

We're perfectly willing to change, but only if we can clearly see how the change is better.


I know that's a general statement and I don't want to assume it as an automatic truth...but I think it explains a whole lot to the other temperaments about why we seem so rigid to them. I think SP's are more likely to try something new through experience to see whether or not it's good, and then go back and think about it, and NT's/NF's are more likely to trust their hunches because they rely on their intuition more.

Because we as SJ's don't operate that way, our default position is to do the things the same way until we see a need for the change. To us, this doesn't seem to be rigid, but because the other temperaments don't do things this way, they find it as rigid.


Again, I don't want to just assume all of this is truth, but I think through your posts, I finally figured out what I was trying to understand when I made this thread.

Thanks a lot, this has really helped a lot!
 
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Yeah, we only want to change to be better. If there's no clear possibility that the new way is the better way, we would likely stick to our old way. That's because Sensors is more responding to experiences and the past. Add that with Judging, which is the love for something routine and organize, it is no wonder we turn out to be more rigid (and loyal) compare to other types when dealing with new ways or things.

This can be good or bad. The bad thing is we tend to stick to our traditions more and we are more stubborn/rigid. But the good thing is we are bunch of loyal and consistent people. :happy:
 
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As a refugee, forgive me if I pinch hit as an ESTJ for now; someone let a stray animal into the ENTJ forum that unfortunately isn't house broken.

Let's just say that I'm not a fan of change for the sake of change, since change can be for the better, or for the worse. What are we changing things for? It is the purpose that needs to be evaluated. Political change, for example, deserves strong skepticism, since proposed changes may prohibit the possibility of private, personal change, e.g. universal comprehensive plans that turn us into uniform, homogeneous units.

I'm also against new ways of thinking. Deductive and inductive reasoning are mandatory because when we deviate from this, we can't be said to be thinking at all, if our focus is on credence, and not cognition. How an idea is generated is a separate process from how an idea is justified.

The answers to the other questions conform to an intuitive type. Am I willing to deviate from a plan to accomplish something? Sure. Do I mix things up to stay out of a rut? Certainly. Do I give new ideas and proposals a fair hearing? Yes, though fairness, as mentioned above, implies a mutual acceptance of cognitive standards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
As a refugee, forgive me if I pinch hit as an ESTJ for now; someone let a stray animal into the ENTJ forum that unfortunately isn't house broken.

Let's just say that I'm not a fan of change for the sake of change, since change can be for the better, or for the worse. What are we changing things for? It is the purpose that needs to be evaluated. Political change, for example, deserves strong skepticism, since proposed changes may prohibit the possibility of private, personal change, e.g. universal comprehensive plans that turn us into uniform, homogeneous units.

I'm also against new ways of thinking. Deductive and inductive reasoning are mandatory because when we deviate from this, we can't be said to be thinking at all, if our focus is on credence, and not cognition. How an idea is generated is a separate process from how an idea is justified.

The answers to the other questions conform to an intuitive type. Am I willing to deviate from a plan to accomplish something? Sure. Do I mix things up to stay out of a rut? Certainly. Do I give new ideas and proposals a fair hearing? Yes, though fairness, as mentioned above, implies a mutual acceptance of cognitive standards.
Yeah, that makes sense. I think for SJ's, keeping things the same is kind of the "default" position...it's where we naturally go. However, if we see a good reason to change, we'll take it.

I guess NT's don't really have a "default" position...since they think so objectively, whether something is old or new is irrelevant, they just take whichever one makes the most sense logically.

I don't know enough about ENTJ's and ENTP's to see how they differ in that regard, though. I wonder if maybe ENTP's are more fluid in adapting new information into their thoughts and beliefs than ENTJ's are? It's hard for me to say, since I'm not familiar with the details of how those two types function.
 

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I wonder if maybe ENTP's are more fluid in adapting new information into their thoughts and beliefs than ENTJ's are?
But is the new information true? If it isn't true, then it belongs in our mental recycle bin. Otherwise we'd be adding false propositions to our cognitive set. I don't know if the ENTPs readily adapt the information provided by others in an innocent manner, but if they do, I'm not convinced it is a virtue.

New information, new thoughts, new moralities, aren't being passed down to us from the heavens. Such developments come from human beings, like you and me. Consider recycling, a central ritual in the green religion. It makes us feel connected with the community by allowing renunciation and sacrifice, and all of the smart people tell us it is the right thing to do. But what if the smart people are complete jackasses, making recommendations merely because industrial civilization alienates them?

Perhaps, long long ago, some INFP fanatic pulled the recycling idea out of her ass, and we're all still going along with her merely to go along. This may be an exaggeration, but an exaggeration that contains a little bit of truth. For if recycling was an efficient use of resources, that is, if it saved more resources than it expended, then companies would pay us for our recyclables. But they don't, which means we need to reexamine our premises.

So the moral of my tale happens to be skepticism. Just because an idea is bizarre or innovative, does not imply that it is true. It could be true, but the only way we can confirm this is to make testable predictions.
 
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