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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
'sup.

I'm curious as to peoples thoughts on this - because I've been thinking about this a fair bit today.
The thought occurred to me, that what I think is Ni in myself, could actually be lightning fast Si.

Consider something like pattern recognition - I'm brilliant at this kind of thing and score very well on pattern recognition tests - stereotypically this is the realm of N types - foreseeing the future, right?

Well what if it's Si, comparing the patterns they've literally just seen, with the pattern they're currently looking at, merely milliseconds later - surely this would allow them to predict accurately, what the next pattern will be.
If Si works this quickly, I can quite easily see how I, and many other "Ni" dominants are actually just intelligent, quick, Si types.

This idea could be applied to all forms of problem solving, everything from room escape games, to brain teasers, to fixing cars, computer programming, counselling people, etc the whole lot, literally everything.


Another thing with Ni is that, essentially it works via gathering information from the present moment and getting a hunch as to what it means - well, how can you prove that hunch doesn't come from Si?

An example might be, you look at someone and know there is something off with them - can't pinpoint it, you're not sure why, you just "know" - typically, this is the realm of Ni.
Consider this - what if this hunch spawns from an impression you receive from the person you're looking at, based on someone who shared similar traits - the same smile, the same hair, the same posture - who knows - if you can't remember it, if you can't pinpoint it - you'd assume it this was Ni (if you were into typology..) but it's not - it would actually be from an Si impression you're receiving.


Another example - consider somebody holds up 5 cards, their backs facing you and asks you to pick the Joker - you look at them and 'intuitively' pick the second card from the right and it's right - and you 'knew' it would be right.
This would again, be typically N.
However what if this manifests from something in the past that you can't recall, where picking the second card from the right = good choice - so you just get a good feeling, from that particular card - maybe it's from a story your grandpa told you, maybe it's something you literally saw someone do and it worked out for them - but in the moment, you don't remember this, you just get a hunch for that second card from the right that you "know" is the right one, and you pick it - this would absolutely look like Ni - it would look like you're acting on your intuition - but you're not - it'd be spawned from Si.

EDIT: I'll interject on myself here and suggest Si perhaps has a correlation with deja vu - consider instances like the above, however you get that feeling that slowly creeps over you and let's you know you've been here before - this feeling, this deja vu - could actually be an Si perception - it could be that something as minute as the way the guy pulled the cards out of his pocket reminded you so much of something (you don't actually recall this being a memory, consciously) that it just about transported you to that moment - you literally are overlaying a past impression with the present moment - and this has the Si user feeling like they're going full iNtUiTiVe - they know damn WELL what card to pick now. They "know" what card is the Joker.

Something has triggered a past impression and now, in the present moment - they see the future.
But it's not Ni! It's not Ne! It's not intuition! It's Si!



I could go on for days. Any Si type with an average to below-average memory, could easily mistype themselves as Ni types. Easily. Because they'd relate to the hunches, the magic, the "knowing" and not to the "great memory" or the "attention to details" (they can't fucking remember them!).

..

Back to the initial topic.

Consider a maths problem - one you've never seen before - you look at it, and just know the answer - seems like you're intuiting the answer - but, what if you're not?
What if you're recognising a pattern or a formula you learnt long ago, and your Si just plucks it out of your head and then the problem makes total sense to you - but you can't break it down - in your head, you just know the answer, like your Si has just fed you how to get to the answer based on your past, but you can't actually recall the formula consciously. You just know the answer.
This would be Si, at lightning speed - comparing the present moment to the past and providing you with a likely result for the future.


I could seriously write for years on this.

I'm keen to hear peoples thoughts because I think smart Si types, or Si types without the best memory, could easily resonate so much more with Ni than Si - and it would be for really good reasons as well, but it wouldn't be the truth.
 
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I actually had the same thought a couple days ago when I was discussing Si in your other thread. Si doms and auxs are considered very good on focusing on details and such, stereotypically also believed to be good for jobs like accountants or other similar jobs where you use data like that, I know my ExTJ (likely S) dad was a very successful accountant with great eye for detail and my ISTJ mom (did a test with her) also worked in the accounting department of a huge company though she wasn't an accountant specifically. Anyway I'm going on a tangent here but yes, I believe Si is great for that, it can focus very well on things that are of interest to the person (its subjective nature) and that's how it acts on the present. I'm not sure it necessarily relates to IQ tests and pattern recognition exclusively, it's probably more than just functions (esp. ONE function) in that kind of thing, but dunno.

I'd say it acts almost instantenously. To me it mostly gives me sensory visions of the past just like Ne gives me visions of 'what ifs', but Si is cool because those visions are actually things that happened so it's like sensory time travel (did you say that in the other thread or did I think of that? I dont remember). In the present I guess it makes me focus on details of the space around me that are relevant to something that matters to me in any kind of way (positive, negative, connection with thoughts I had at some point, etc). My weak Se may make me oblivious to the rest of the world around me, bumping on stuff all the time, but I will notice a minute detail that no one else will.
 

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Ok I like to think Si to be this. Imagine parents having a rule of their child to not be allowed to play video games past 8 pm. It would be one of the number one rule and breaking it would involve in a punishment of no video games for the whole two weeks starting from that 8 pm time period. Eventually the kid will learn of the consequence and not break the rule. When this kid grows up and starts to have a family of his own, he will enforce this rule for his own kid of not allowed to play games past 8 pm.

Si essentially tries to make out what has happened in the past and what were the factors of each action, and believe that a particular course of action that they're comfortable with would be the best choice. Si in my opinion relates a lot to Fi, where both functions believe which course of action is the best, but instead of their values and feelings, what they have perceived with their very own eyes. Si doms/aux are often called traditional because they usually fear when an outcome is unknown and they're not use to it.

So essentially, Si will predict based on what has occurred the most, similar to Ni, but except it isn't based on pure prediction, but rather based on their memories on what has occured the most.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I actually had the same thought a couple days ago when I was discussing Si in your other thread. Si doms and auxs are considered very good on focusing on details and such, stereotypically also believed to be good for jobs like accountants or other similar jobs where you use data like that, I know my ExTJ (likely S) dad was a very successful accountant with great eye for detail and my ISTJ mom (did a test with her) also worked in the accounting department of a huge company though she wasn't an accountant specifically. Anyway I'm going on a tangent here but yes, I believe Si is great for that, it can focus very well on things that are of interest to the person (its subjective nature) and that's how it acts on the present. I'm not sure it necessarily relates to IQ tests and pattern recognition exclusively, it's probably more than just functions (esp. ONE function) in that kind of thing, but dunno.

I'd say it acts almost instantaneously. To me it mostly gives me sensory visions of the past just like Ne gives me visions of 'what ifs', but Si is cool because those visions are actually things that happened so it's like sensory time travel (did you say that in the other thread or did I think of that? I don't remember). In the present I guess it makes me focus on details of the space around me that are relevant to something that matters to me in any kind of way (positive, negative, connection with thoughts I had at some point, etc). My weak Se may make me oblivious to the rest of the world around me, bumping on stuff all the time, but I will notice a minute detail that no one else will.
Thanks for the response - I have mentioned the sensory time-travel, I don't believe I used that exact phrase, but something very similar - same idea.

I also imagine it can be instantaneous - which means, it could easily be mistaken for Ni.

Ok I like to think Si to be this. Imagine parents having a rule of their child to not be allowed to play video games past 8 pm. It would be one of the number one rule and breaking it would involve in a punishment of no video games for the whole two weeks starting from that 8 pm time period. Eventually the kid will learn of the consequence and not break the rule. When this kid grows up and starts to have a family of his own, he will enforce this rule for his own kid of not allowed to play games past 8 pm.

Si essentially tries to make out what has happened in the past and what were the factors of each action, and believe that a particular course of action that they're comfortable with would be the best choice. Si in my opinion relates a lot to Fi, where both functions believe which course of action is the best, but instead of their values and feelings, what they have perceived with their very own eyes. Si doms/aux are often called traditional because they usually fear when an outcome is unknown and they're not use to it.

So essentially, Si will predict based on what has occurred the most, similar to Ni, but except it isn't based on pure prediction, but rather based on their memories on what has occured the most.
I get what you're saying, but I feel it's a dumbed down stereotypical version of Si, and I feel that stereotype is wrong.. or at least, only about 10% of the story, for whatever reason.
Perhaps I romanticise Si. I see it as so much more than how you describe it.

Consider an Si dominant who had terrible parents, and sought to be anything but similar to them.
Now you've got a parent who's going to be basically creating their own rules and coming across as nothing like the stereotypical Si type.
 

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Yes, Si does work like that. It can be lightning fast if you've got a lightning fast mind.

I'm also very good at logical pattern recognition, games of "who done it", and such where you need to figure out the culprit or right answer based on clues. It's not from out of nowhere though. It's never from out of nowhere. There are always links to past experience that you thought you long forgot (perhaps), but your mind has made a very useful way of retaining it for future use. So it's not really that Si users have "great database memories" and are a "walking rule book" like the stereotypes say. :rolleyes:

Si users do tend to rely on their experience to figure out the best outcome, given a number of choices and possibilities. It can seem like Ni if they aren't aware/remember that they figured it out using past experience. However, even though I still don't understand Ni, I understand that it MUST draw its conclusions using some kind of past experience. Logically, it must...there's just no way it can predict something without consulting past experience...or else all Ni doms would be magicians. So with respect to that, what's the real difference between Si and Ni (not indicating there isn't, it's an honest question)?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm re-reading Psychological Types and trying to figure out how Si came to have a connection with the 'past' in the first place.

The most likely possibility I see, is that it stems from where Jung kind of describes the relationship between Si and Ne here:

Whereas true extraverted intuition is possessed of a singular resourcefulness, a "good nose" for objectively real possibilities, this archaicized intuition has an amazing flair for all the ambiguous, shadowy, sordid, dangerous possibilities lurking in the background. The real and conscious intentions of the object mean nothing to it; instead, it sniffs out every conceivable archaic motive underlying such an intention. It therefore has a dangerous and destructive quality that contrasts glaringly with the well-meaning innocuousness of the conscious attitude.
It goes on a little longer, but this is one of the only things you can kind of mangle into anything resembling a penchant for relying on the past.

As I understand it at least - this relates not to the past, but to the future - it's a dark creativity, rather than a complete fear of possibilities that is alluded to here - and this dark creativity stems from the subjective impressions of objects, not the objects themselves - i.e, a sort of 'shadow world' inside the Si dominants head, that may or may not accurately reflect reality.

I can see people mangling this into a fear of future possibilities, or a fear of the unknown, and then just by default linking this to a preference for relying on your own experience/the past as a guide, but I don't read it this way.
 

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At the speed of light, if not faster. True story.

 
Good thread.
 

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@Bunniculla if I'm not mistaken Si retains the details of the event and overlooks the cause & effect, Ni retains the cause & effect of the event and overlooks the details

strong Si will be reminded of something because the sensory details match something that they've experienced

strong Ni will be reminded of something because the abstract motivation or cause/effect match something they've experienced
 

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Discussion Starter #9
@spacenyc - what then, would you identify as an 'abstract motivation'?

I can't even find where Jung says anything about Si types being attentive to detail, or any of the 'down-to-earth' stereotypes etc we read - if anything, Jung alludes to the complete opposite of overlooking the cause and effect - read my above post - they're definitely aware of the possibilities but it's in a darker way.

Regardless of whether their views manifest as optimistic or pessimistic, the fact remains they aren't overlooking cause and effect in the first place.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around a perceiving function 'retaining' anything.
 
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@spaceynyc

if I'm not mistaken Si retains the details of the event and overlooks the cause & effect, Ni retains the cause & effect of the event and overlooks the details

strong Si will be reminded of something because the sensory details match something that they've experienced

strong Ni will be reminded of something because the abstract motivation or cause/effect match something they've experienced
Am I correct in my assessment of what you wrote as Si users tend to retain the sensory experience without considering the motivation behind why the event happened? While on the other hand, Ni users might not remember exactly what happened chronologically, but they'll be left with an overall sensation of what the gist of the event was? So an Si user will directly relate a future event to a past one based on how similar the physical aspects of it was, while an Ni user will relate a future event to a past one in which they feel the underlying motivation is similar?

Hmm, I need to think about whether I agree with this or not on an objective basis. Personally, as an ISTJ, I am always, always thinking about the motivation and theme behind a person's actions. For example, someone could be running around serving everyone with a big smile on their face, and saying "no problem" to everything. However, I will always be wondering if they are truly happy or trying to reach some kind of secret goal by pleasing others. So while I may remember the physical aspects of what happened, I will also consider the real theme of what the actions represent to get to the "real" truth of who this person is.

It could be that while Si and Ni work similarly, Si might make connections based on past experiences that were meaningful to them, while Ni could make connections based on any random past experience stored away, and the reason it seems to come from nowhere, is because a person's capacity for remembering meaningful events is so small that everything else just goes into the subconscious mind. Therefore, creating that "magical premonition" stereotype, which actually can be explained to being able to access a wider variety of memories.
 

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@Bunniculla

"Si might make connections based on past experiences that were meaningful to them, while Ni could make connections based on any random past experience stored away"

I'm definitely open to accepting that I am wrong about Si users not looking for cause and effect, my apologies, it was just a theory that I had from experience

What you said right above though, this is probably why Si users are stereo typically seen as retaining details and having "good memory". They internalize their senses, so it is stored and conscious for later use. Ni also values Se, so they are not internalizing their experiences, therefore if a memory pops up, it is random and void of any detail. This what I was trying to allude to. And like you said they probably have a wider access to memories, but the detail of our memories are subconscious and not valued, because they aren't so meaningful to us. Because of the wider access to memories, it is easier for us to predict an event with inner certainty.
 

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I am still not sure if I use Si or Ni, considering both functions supposedly look into the past consistently. I think figuring out the actual key differences between the functions is the key for some of us to figure out their type, so this thread is very interesting.
 

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@Hugging Wabbits I remember hearing different people say that whatever someone with Si is interested in, they tend to know everything about. Like it's super hard to out-fact check someone with strong Si because anything that is meaningful to them, they store every detail about it consciously. this is what introverted sensing is. it favors certain details over others. Whereas Ni users who value Se, don't favor certain details over others. All sensory details are on an even playing field. This is probably why we tend to have "bad memory" in the traditional sense.
 
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Haven't seen a lot of Si-users in this thread so most of us are just guessing. I'd say keep that in mind here.

According to neurological research one of the defining characteristics of Si is 'whole-brain memory'. Si-users apparently actually 'relive' their memories. This gives them access to facts, emotions, sensory data and visual information all at once. (my girlfriend has confirmed that this seems to work this way for her, but I can't speak from my own experiences or on behalf of all Si-users of course).

Si doesn't make connections though, that's the domain of Ne for them. Ne thinks across contexts to link things to each other that seem unrelated, coming up with new possibilities in the process (that Si has to evaluate for relevance of course).

I don't think processing speed has anything to do with Si. That might be the domain of Te though. Te has short networks that rapidly produce output from given input, ignoring distracting data in the process. That speeds things up a lot.

I do think it's possible for Si-doms to relate more to Ni because they're smart, but most of your examples seem more based in 'lucking out' and having the feeling of being able to predict the future. That's not Ni. Ni is about working a single problem from multiple angles until all parts of the brain agree on a single solution to the problem. It's usually a slow process, but can seem quick because all of it happens subconciously until it all clicks. If you're looking for quick, I don't think either Si or Ni would do the trick to be honest.
 

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@spaceynyc - would you then suggest, that the experts in the field - people who've devoted their lives to typology - practically exclusively N types - would actually be engaging in their Si, as they seek to dive into this one particular interest, to the point they understand every little nook and cranny.

In this fashion, how would an interest in typology and cognitive functions, differ from an interest in camera lenses or model trains?
How would this difference manifest, IRL, if the Ni type was into the typology and the Si type was into the physical hobbies?

Then shift it - what about the Si type who is into typology, and the Ni type who is into model trains etc?

The 'expert in a niche interest' thing, to me, is closer aligned with introverted perceiving functions in general - if it had to be forced into anything specific.

The thing is, and this is observable on this very forum - "Ni" types get incredibly hung-up on details and tiny, trivial information, they absolutely get stuck on definitions and fact-checking.

I don't believe 'facts' or 'data retention' of any sort, relates to Ni or Si - what would separate an Ni user, from an Si user with a bad memory?

I believe people here, VASTLY overestimate their ability, yet alone natural tendency, to focus on the abstractions and psychic world often connected to Ni.
Not to mention, Ni types supposedly have "little consciousness of their own bodily existence or of it's effects on others" - what does this even mean? Does it mean they're clumsy? Does it mean they forget to eat? Does it simply mean they're unaware of their own presence in an environment? There are so many ways to interpret this, and they could *all* be linked to Si as well.
 

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@Hugging Wabbits I remember hearing different people say that whatever someone with Si is interested in, they tend to know everything about. Like it's super hard to out-fact check someone with strong Si because anything that is meaningful to them, they store every detail about it consciously. this is what introverted sensing is. it favors certain details over others. Whereas Ni users who value Se, don't favor certain details over others. All sensory details are on an even playing field. This is probably why we tend to have "bad memory" in the traditional sense.
I very much devour everything about the topics that interest me, to the point wikis and TV Tropes are some of my most visited sites. My memory isn't that great for everything though, it is very specific, I would say. That said, I wouldn't say I am likely a Si-dom, I would be surprised if I were ISFJ.

As a Ni user, would you say such practice doesn't fit you?
 

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I believe people here, VASTLY overestimate their ability, yet alone natural tendency, to focus on the abstractions and psychic world often connected to Ni.
Not to mention, Ni types supposedly have "little consciousness of their own bodily existence or of it's effects on others" - what does this even mean? Does it mean they're clumsy? Does it mean they forget to eat? Does it simply mean they're unaware of their own presence in an environment? There are so many ways to interpret this, and they could *all* be linked to Si as well.
Or it could just mean they have some kind of attention deficit disorder (whether mild or severe). This could be the reason for being "out of it". I know an INFJ that is very aware of her surroundings. Actually, despite typology, most people in my life are very aware of their surroundings. I'm pretty sure "in your head" might just be an Introversion/attention deficit thing.
 

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Si doesn't make connections though, that's the domain of Ne for them. Ne thinks across contexts to link things to each other that seem unrelated, coming up with new possibilities in the process (that Si has to evaluate for relevance of course).
Interesting. So perhaps Si and Ni aren't anything meaningful, until they've been paired with Se or Si. Si doesn't actually become Si until it's been paired with Ne, therefore Si would just be a part of the Si-Ne combo. Likewise with Ni and Se. Hmmm. Interesting. This could mean that they're more similar than people think in their purest form (whatever that is), and their real distinctions lie heavily in being paired with Ne and Se. Hmm.
 

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I'm totally guessing here, but I'm imagining that Si/Ne types are more impressionistic in their sensory experiences while Ni/Se types are more concrete.

Si would form impressions about the world fueled by their Ne (non-factual, possible)
Ni would form impressions about the world fueled by their Se (fact, actual)

So, the Si impressions they draw from tend to be impressions from either the now or the past as stored impressions.
in contrast, the Ni impressions they draw from tend to be impressions from a combination of "nows" they have experienced.

If I'm explaining myself clearly, it should follow that Ni would be anticipating the next Se "now" while Si would be anticipating the next Ne "possible".

I'd imagine in practice, the Si dom user would be very good at preparing against future problems.
In contrast, the Ni dom user would be very good at preparing for a future they believe they have more control over (as Se is very concrete).

Thoughts? These are just theories I'm spitting out based on my own understanding of the functions. I'm not saying this is absolutely true or even accurate. Just the way I understand it.
 
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