Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know, I am a Christian, but I can't help but question this logic and rip it apart.

If the universe was created by God, how did he get here? Christians don't usually believe in the "Big Bang," but is it possible that the Big Bang came first and then God? Or did God make the Big Bang? Even if he did, where is Heaven? Is it in God's mind? If Heaven existed before the universe (if you think God came before the big bang) then how did heaven get here? The only possible place it could be is in God's mind! Maybe... Agh, I don't know! Could someone help me?

I posted this in the Critical Thinking forum, but you ENFPs are quick to reply, so yeah.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
646 Posts
I know, I am a Christian, but I can't help but question this logic and rip it apart.

If the universe was created by God, how did he get here? Christians don't usually believe in the "Big Bang," but is it possible that the Big Bang came first and then God? Or did God make the Big Bang? Even if he did, where is Heaven? Is it in God's mind? If Heaven existed before the universe (if you think God came before the big bang) then how did heaven get here? The only possible place it could be is in God's mind! Maybe... Agh, I don't know! Could someone help me?

I posted this in the Critical Thinking forum, but you ENFPs are quick to reply, so yeah.


That's a good question for which I have no real good answer. The problem here is you're hitting the limits of both the major theories (evolution vs creation). If we could just see a little further in to one or the other then possibly this could be answered, but for now you are just going to have to rely on faith either way. I am now done with my "state the obvious" answer so you will have to wait for a real, better one :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,395 Posts
Christians can believe in the Big Bang. You have to understand that God is outside our concept of time. The creation process stated in the Bible could have took place in milliseconds, even if described as a week.
If you believe in the Bible, then you can read it in there that Heaven existed before the creation of Earth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
I was thinking about the same thing a few days ago and eventually decided that I'll just have to put my faith in God. I tried to come up with a bunch of explanations, but none of them can be proven and I only ended up with more questions, so...
 

·
MOTM Mar 2012
Joined
·
613 Posts
I know, I am a Christian, but I can't help but question this logic and rip it apart.

If the universe was created by God, how did he get here? Christians don't usually believe in the "Big Bang," but is it possible that the Big Bang came first and then God? Or did God make the Big Bang? Even if he did, where is Heaven? Is it in God's mind? If Heaven existed before the universe (if you think God came before the big bang) then how did heaven get here? The only possible place it could be is in God's mind! Maybe... Agh, I don't know! Could someone help me?

I posted this in the Critical Thinking forum, but you ENFPs are quick to reply, so yeah.
Faith and rationality absolutely can coexist. It is great to logically challenge your faith, it makes it stronger and better overall.

I would suggest to you that God may be the Un-caused Effect. If you are thinking of everything in terms of cause and effect, like the Big bang happened, and then everything else after that was a chain of cause and effect. It is possible that God was the effect without a cause.
But at the same time, if God caused the Big Bang, he then resides OUTSIDE of space-time. The space-time continuum is where we live, it is a result of matter as we know it. There are, however, other dimensions we don't know about or really understand. God could have influenced everything from an outside dimension, making Him outside of space-time and an un-caused effect. We can't properly conceptualize that with our brains, I'm afraid.
I would encourage you to look at quantum physics. It breaks apart all our understandings of what the 'rules' are for physics in this universe. In quantum physics, you can essentially do magic. Be multiple places at the same time. Be nowhere. Increase or decrease size. Teleport. All manner of crazy impossible things for us, are possible on a quantum level. So really, if you believe in an all-powerful God, He is truly capable of anything from a quantum level. (Quantum physics is the physics of the very very small particles that make up the Proton and Neutron, Electrons, Photons, etc)

Here's what I mean: (This should blow your mind. For me, this sort of thing bolsters my faith)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
600 Posts
Faith and rationally don't mix.

I wouldn't bother trying to logic anything out if you're going to insist on remaining a Christian.
@Smileygirl I strongly agree with this. I danced around that line before...and now I'm an atheist. Not to scare you or anything, but you might not like certain answers that you get. :/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,408 Posts
Wow, its like you crawled inside my head! This question about how God came about has been bothering me for the last few weeks, at random times. I don't like thinking it, because everything needs a creator right? Its the whole chicken and the egg scenario. What came first? If I think about this for too long, I get really confused. Maybe we aren't supposed to know, or its something that will be revealed to us IN Heaven. I would say, if there isn't a logical explanation, don't think about it so much. Focus on the things you do know, or can be worked out.

When I first became a Christian, I had hundreds of questions. I often found that I didn't get any answers through research on my own, but God would reveal them in his own time, through bible readings, seminars, talks with friends/mentors etc. Its kind of amazing being a Christian, you get new questions and new answers all the time. Some questions you may only have for a day, some can last for years, but its always satisfying to get an answer.

I know, I am a Christian, but I can't help but question this logic and rip it apart.
Yay, you're a Christian! I didn't know that. *High Five*.

is it possible that the Big Bang came first and then God?
Sure, anythings possible, although Genesis explains it a little differently. I don't think anyone can claim anything without being around at the time.

Even if he did, where is Heaven?
I'm not really sure, but I think you can only access it once you've died. Heaven isn't really for people, its for God and the Angels. At the end, heaven and earth will join and form the New Jerusalem- that's where everyone will live. Heaven on Earth. Perfection!

Is it in God's mind?
No, I believe it's a real place.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,683 Posts
I too would love to know more about how faith and rationality can be related...I started questioning my faith very early on and the more vague the answers were, ie: "because he has always been and always will be", the more it just pushed me further from believing. Vague answers like that leave an unsettled feeling in me, and when I get that feeling, it sets off the "it's not true" alarms in me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
I think the problem with faith and rationality, is that at some point, on some level you're simply CHOOSING to believe something without a firm, rational basis. This will be a crucial flaw in the foundation of any logical argument you could ever possibly make.

In fact this is the flaw of any logical argument, with faith in mind or not.

I want to note that when I use the word "faith" I specifically mean, "belief in something not based on proof." You can very easily have religion and rationally coexisting, but you cannot truly both, believe in something that is not based on proof and prove this belief to be true. By attempting to "rationalize" your faith you taint them both with the other and make them imperfect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,615 Posts
I know science exists inside Christianity; however, I'm not sure we'll ever crack the code of how the brain works (in extreme detail, I mean), how the universe was made, or other big questions individuals have been trying to figure out.

To think about where the Earth is placed in correlation with the sun, the angle of the planet, the gases our planet contains... obviously it's a large amount of nearly exacts that help us live today. God obviously understands how to create life.... it can't just exist out of absolute nowhere. There is an exact science to it, somehow.

Honestly though, I don't think there is a specific way that's right... at least at a human understanding. People can debate til all the ends of the earth, but what will it matter in the line of Christianity? Debating is fun for humans, but we have our guidelines from God and Jesus. Loving God. Loving one another. Respecting ourselves and others. Making good, healthy choices. I think when people start arguing over small details, we lose focus on the larger picture of what God expects from us.

I'd just say @Smileygirl to have faith and follow him. Maybe we'll know when we reach eternity :) I'd just rather be as good as I can in His eyes... the other stuff can come later.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,636 Posts
That's like asking what the very first number is. Number is infinite- so is time- a concept of infinity is hard to grasp as a human being, similarly it is hard to imagine space as going on forever with no end, ever... we want to imagine our world as a box with limits, but there isn't any... one could imagine God like that, there from the very start and to the very end. You can choose to see God as a physical being, a spritual presence, a consciousness, or like me, existence itself, a word for both the parts and the whole.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
770 Posts
God always was. We can't wrap our heads around concept very well since we seem to picture time on a timeline, as some sort of linear continuum. I accept it and don't question a lot of that creation stuff since I'm a scientist and recognize that religion and science are two sides of the same coin. Both complementary. The idea that God orchestrated the Big Bang and everything thereafter seems to make the most sense to me, akin to what @Finaille was saying. We're enfps, sister. We don't need nitty gritty details and congruency to accept ideas as truth. :p I have had those same questions though and can relate to that inquisitive mind of yours! My faith stems from the influence God has in my life on a daily basis, not from any formal beliefs system, so I don't expend my mental energy on these unanswerable questions since knowing the explanations humans have come up with wouldn't change my faith anyways. Would it change yours?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
The way I see it, everything in this universe has a cause; people, animals, planets, galaxies, everything comes from something else. So then comes the questions: what was the first cause, that started the whole process? Is there even a first cause? Has the universe existed forever?

Modern science traces the origins of the universe back to the Big Bang, approximately 13.75 billion years ago. But then we could ask how did the singularity from which came the Big Bang originate? In this physical universe and dimension, everything springs from something else. So the most apparent explanation would be that something that did not come from something else started it, and from that began the creation of the universe. Hence this "something" would have to be from a different universe or dimension, one where the "each thing comes from something else" rule does not apply, where things could exist without a cause.

This something would be God, and the "other universe" would be the spiritual realm, where heaven would reside.

Did I make it too complicated? ^^''
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
541 Posts
I want to note that when I use the word "faith" I specifically mean, "belief in something not based on proof." You can very easily have religion and rationally coexisting, but you cannot truly both, believe in something that is not based on proof and prove this belief to be true. By attempting to "rationalize" your faith you taint them both with the other and make them imperfect.
Going by this simplistic definition of faith, there are in fact a very large number of things that every person absolutely has to accept purely on faith in order to even function: the validity of the senses, the continuity of experience from one moment to the next, the reliability and accuracy of memory of the immediate past, and so on.

Science itself depends on the uniformity of natural laws across time and space, something which absolutely cannot be proven. And, in fact, nothing is ever actually "proven" in science in the same sense that logical deductions can be proven or disproven, since science is highly inductive. That's not to say that science isn't valid -- it's completely valid, and it's the best we've got, but this myth of pervasive, ironclad rationality has got to go because it simply is not true.

Science and religion run into problems when people insist on using one as a substitute for the other. They actually fill different functions. In its proper role, science serves to describe the universe. In its proper role, religion serves to give the universe meaning.

Prose : Poetry
Sex : Love
Science : Religion
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
541 Posts
If the universe was created by God, how did he get here? Christians don't usually believe in the "Big Bang," but is it possible that the Big Bang came first and then God? Or did God make the Big Bang?
One thing you might want to consider is mutual co-creation, the idea that God and the Universe are engaged in the ongoing process of creating each other. The basis for this is the idea that Creation is never finished, because the universe is always changing, and the act of creating is something that changes the creator. To accept this, though, you have to reject the idea of an eternally unchanging God. As a non-Christian panentheist, it's not really a problem for me, but Christians may have trouble with it (though I don't know of anything in the scripture that rules it out entirely).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,271 Posts
"Don't you see? the whole point is that you must blindly trust God's word enough to ignore the discrepencies and just go along with things.."- personally God sounds like one creepy dude..

However, I love what religion does for people though, it allows those people who have a piece missing from their heart to fill it with faith instead of drugs, booze, sex or whatever other empty pleasures they might otherwise try to fill it with, it's a really great thing.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,096 Posts
No one knows.

The Gnostics had/have a funky outlook on things:

Basic teachings and Beliefs
The Gnostic concept of salvation is entirely at odds with the accepted Christian doctrine. In Gnostic belief, one must seek reuinion with God, dissolution of the body, and a return to the state prior to the Fall- the first cause. This contradicts the developed Christiandoctrine that the death of Christ was a sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind, and that man achieves salvation simply be believing in this sacrifice. Gnostics, in their turn, believe that Christ was not truly human, but an Avatar or messenger who only had the appearance of humanity. (This doctrine is known as Docetism) Among these ‘Avatars’ is counted the serpent in the garden, a radical and dangerous (in the eyes of the Church) departure from ‘accepted’ doctrine. Also contrary to (non-gnostic) Christian doctrine is the central idea of gnosis, or the personal experience of the divine, for which there is no exact prescribed course of approach.
In (very general!) Gnostic cosmology, Sophia (Holy Wisdom, or the Holy spirit), a divine emanation, seeks to know God, and in doing, falls outside the “Pleroma,” the unified divine light. As She falls, she gives birth to the “blind demiurge” Yaldabaoth, who is also Satan/Yahweh/IAO. Yaldabaoth, who believes himself to be God,* creates the material world and mankind, trapping Sophia within.
The serpent in the Garden of Eden, and later, Jesus himself, are manifestations of the Holy spirit attempting to free mankind from this material slavery. Gnostics taught that because of this, the material world is abhorrent. Unlike many modern Christian belief systems, gnostic ‘mythology’ is regarded as metaphorical, a language of symbolism designed to express spiritual concepts that cannot be communicated in ordinary language. Gnostic streams exist in numerous faiths other than Christianity, and include Islam’s Sufism, Western Hermetic/alchemical philosophy, and the transcendent system of Catholic mystics Jakob Boehme and St. John of the Cross.
*Yaldabaoth can be viewed as a metaphor for religion- he is the human-created God, bound by the limits of the human ego and imagination. He is “born” of the human desire to know God, but often becomes a great prison-keeper, preventing us from ever actually experiencing the divine. Every revelation of divinity is thus degraded, coming under the control of the “consensus” of believers. This “half-creator” then fulfills a dual role- as a god of light who inspires, and as a demonic, limiting power, depending on whether or not one has the discernment (Sophia) to know one from the other. This is why Gnostic deities are often depicted in dual roles.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
613 Posts
I know, I am a Christian, but I can't help but question this logic and rip it apart.

If the universe was created by God, how did he get here? Christians don't usually believe in the "Big Bang," but is it possible that the Big Bang came first and then God? Or did God make the Big Bang? Even if he did, where is Heaven? Is it in God's mind? If Heaven existed before the universe (if you think God came before the big bang) then how did heaven get here? The only possible place it could be is in God's mind! Maybe... Agh, I don't know! Could someone help me?

I posted this in the Critical Thinking forum, but you ENFPs are quick to reply, so yeah.
Ha I see you like small talk, :tongue: looks like you're evolving into a rational-thinking-debating-science-loving ENTP... I bet joo gonna be rebellious too.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top