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After the Rain Spoiled the Harvest

You are right dude this applies INTJ too due to INT preference but J makes them too superior to us as they are capable to lead and are always ready to ready to lead .. they are the best strategic planner and comparable to ENTJ (who born leaders) and another name of the INTJ is Mastermind and they are very good in politics J preference of their attitude makes them goal oriented INTP's are hardly goal oriented for years specially when they sometimes they compromise on academic level even in the subject of their intrest!!
After the Rain Spoiled the Harvest

I have not posted for awhile. It must be the rain, gales and the consequences in the real world.

Who are the Farmers? I think they must be Top Dogs or the Wolf ENTJ.

The Drovers are Horsemen ESFJ (who do not like the Bossy Farmers)

The Stockbroker who collects the stock and redistributes is likely to be a Hawk INTJ or even an Eagle INTP. Or even a Snake/Lizard ENTP ?

The Abbatoir chief and the Butchers are likely to be ESTJ Bullies.

3,427 Posts
As much as I generally dislike "rules" for "dealing" with other people, some of the OP's points are pretty good; I should just print some of them out and hand them out to people I know, just so they can understand me a little bit better...
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3,372 Posts
Weirdos United

I have linked into this on my blog The Sore Dragon

so I must have thought it was good. Lots of trouble nowadays with other people. Never had this problem (or never noticed it when younger).

However, I was not very successful when younger for reasons unknown at the time. Or how I failed to monetise my projects ?

362 Posts
"Encourage us. We tend to hold ourselves to extremely high personal standards, whether or not we let the rest of the world in on them, and it helps to have other people recognize what we are striving for. Though, do keep in mind that if you are encouraging just for the sake of encouragement and not because we are actually succeeding, we'll recognize it and hear it as empty."

This. This so much.

1 Posts
Did a personality test recently and it was spot on with its description regards to who this person would be. Reading through the list, I had a few remarks. I'll split my comment in 2 sections. One for those that are reading it with the purpose to of understanding 'us'. And one for those that are 'us'.

Firstly let me start for those that read this to understand 'us'.

Corollary to it, I would say that when you do not respect our competence, we will pass your position to find the right person or do it ourselves if we can.

I would say this is mostly written by an INTP. However, I would say that the best boss for 'us' is a facilitator. Even though you might not be able to catch up with our logical thinking, we do acknowledge someone who respects the competence. Perhaps it can be best described for the situation between John Watson and Sherlock Holmes. What if Watson was the lead character instead, what would be Watson's best decision be to make the couple Watson and Holmes work without giving Holmes the lead?

It mostly depends on the question as you could reflect this also back looking at 2. Something we consider as common sense, might not be common sense for your life perspective. What works best is asking multiple people different questions. It is like a trick a stewardess uses when she feels a fart is coming. Instead of let it out on one spot, she walks through the cabin to make it less concentrated thus less likely someone will notice.

Everyone wants this :).

This is roughly explained by 10 as when we don't take emotions into our logic, in general, we therefore feel little for others that do make this attempt.

For me this is too vague. I would say this is meant with in mind that your life perspective and its logic is different, thus suggesting you have to think out of the box to get along. I'm not sure if this is what is meant.

I think that I and this person who wrote it should have a discussion about this. The problematic assumption missing here is, for who is it efficient?

I've found out, first hand as well, that you have politics and politics. Those that play games at the expense of other and are willing to win the game even though they are wrong (and sometime even know they are), that kind of politics is nothing for us. Mainly as we will acknowledge when we're wrong.

Smileys are part of this.

This differs between cultures. People from low context environments consider this to be effective communications, however people from high context may take offense by this. You don't need to be an INTP for this.

This is written by an INTP. It is meant in a physical matter, not an emotional one. However, psychology might fascinate us as well, where it is logical that is of course :).

This twisted humor is mainly due to the lack of empathy or emotions. This way the jokes can be seen as cold and dark.

Similar to 4, although sometimes... this can be amusing.

Quick is subjective, of course. It is mostly done by INTP's that consider themselves to be superior. Sometimes we just have to acknowledge that others are not 'gifted' with logical thinking.

Also, if we appear to have a blank face, it doesn't mean that we are not happy with our life.

Read the 'and it doesn't take much effort' as in the way of 'they think that'. I've met people that are unable to keep up.

Now to have a chat with 'us'.

I think this is something that fits nicely in the Barnum effect. Thus this should be removed.

You can't just demand from others to become you. You're not Agent Smith from the Matrix that can transform people into its own personality. The most efficient way is not our ideal.

However I've found out that it can be really effective to use smileys. Even in business related mails. Especially to prevent offending anyone as mentioned in second corollary of 2. Still, I think this one can is part of the Barnum effect as well.

There are cultures that use low context and high context. If you're coming from the high context environment and are face with Americans, this might offend you. But this is not a personality trait, rather it is a culture one. Also, they like to put a summary on mail after you had a phone call. As 12 is more of a culture thing, I think this can be removed from the list as well.

Another Barnum effect to my opinion. Every personality would have this. The only reason for a personality to not have this would be because it is considered to be the majority of society.

Can be used as a corollary of the second corollary of 2.

This is similar to 10.

In my past job I've been teaching new people the stuff they require to know. Some are just incapable of understanding the logical reason behind it. Even when explained by 3 different ways. However, for some people when second corollary of 2 is taken personally, emotion becomes a blockade for them to accept anything you're trying to tell them. Also I would advice to remove the following line as it is filled with irritation of ones personal life. 'If you think we are amazingly gifted for solving problems it isn't because we are unusually smart, it's only because we think.'

This matches with the idea behind 8.

This is similar to 10 and 19.

This can be removed. Why would it be required to state it? It only creates suspicion even though it is not intended.

This is another one for the Barnum effect.

This matches with 12, thus can be appended or removed.

Same as first corollary of 2.

This would better fit as a part of 1.

This is part of the Barnum effect as well. Besides, you have this problem also when you're in front of a multi cultural group. As example, Americans tend to more application first for their persuasion, however most of European countries tend to be more concept first. I would advise you the read 'The Culture Map'. You can almost find the logic in emotions with it when combining it with personality traits. Perhaps this is how the algorithms are working for Google and Facebook as well?

6 Posts
There was a list on some INTP group about rules of interaction with INTPs. The first eleven points were from the OP, I added the corollary to 2, and the rest was suggested by myself and various others. (Also, we really aren't as bitter as this post might make us sound. Think of it as an insight into the INTP mind.) Discuss.

Rules to adhere to when with us:

1) Respect our competence. But remember, we need empathy, not worship or excessive admiration, so don't idealize us, because you have to ...

2) ... accept that no matter how smart you think you think we are, we don't have all the answers and therefore need help in things that strike as common sense to you (socializing, expressing our emotions), but don't pressure us, or worse, patronize us. Because once you become patronizing, its goodbye.

Corollary to (2): If you have a well thought-out counterargument to our thoughts, don't be afraid to present it. As mentioned, we make mistakes too, and we don't take challenges personally; it's just another part of the process in reaching The Truth.

second corollary to number (2) Do not be offended when we present a counter argument to something you've said. It's not that we think you're incompetent, it's just we want to reach The Truth.

3) Don't try to lead us or expect us to lead you. We scoff at such things. Instead we want equals.

4) When you don't know something, first research, THEN ask. Nothing annoys us more than people who are too intellectually lazy to try obtain information that is easily available.

5) Respect our personal space.

6) If you're a man, stop trying to be macho and if you're a woman, stop playing dumb. We're not impressed by such behavior. Instead think out of the box and act in ways that defy what have been taught to you as a man or a woman.

7) Be creative.

8) Be idealistic. Stop accepting the world as it is now and saying it is the truth. It isn't. Much of life is a social construction, based on systems of power that oppress one group or another. Things can always be more efficient and more just. Contribute your ideas on how to achieve this.

9) Politics and tradition? Rule that out of your dictionary.

10) Stop saying we are cold, or heartless. Its not we don't have emotions, its just that we put them aside in our quest to be impartial. And through this so-called impartiality, we INTPs - the healthy ones anyway - want to make the world into a better place. Our kindness is not rooted in sentimentality, but elaborate and carefully thought-out designs.

Corollary to (10): Don't expect appeals to our emotion to work.

Second corollary to number (10) And don't expect us to assemble a persuasive argument based on emotion.

11) Stop using excessive exclamation marks - except when REALLY necessary - and start reading. You ask how come we are so smart? We aren't smart. We're just very intellectually motivated.

12) Be clear and concise in your speech. Verbal accuracy and precision isn't semantic, it's necessary. Also, repetition is generally more nuisance than articulation.

13) Respect our eccentricity, as well as those of others. It's a good thing that we have our quirks, and it's most likely a point of quiet pride for a number of INTPs.

14) Be ready to think of more than just a narrow range of topics. INTP interests literally span the universe. In fact, each individual INTP's interests most likely literally span the universe. We aren't interested in just a handful of things, we want to understand the UNIVERSE.

15) Understand that our humor is a little unconventional. Some (?) of us have slightly "twisted" humor, and we love sarcasm.

corollary to number (15) And it's not that we don't love your joke it's just that we're laughing on the inside.

16) Stating the obvious is not appreciated.

17) Don't take us too personally. Chances are, even when we are being critical, we aren't actually trying to offend you so much as point out some sort of flaw in your logic or thinking patterns and giving you the opportunity to correct it. We'll only move on to treating you like an idiot when you have clearly proven that you deserve to be treated as such.

18) For the love g-d, please try to think quickly. INTPs love to make intuitive leaps - leap with us! There's nothing more fun than take a current topic and relate it to the past, postulate about its future (realistic or absurd), make joking references to it by virtue of pop culture references or random word play, linking it to personal experiences (one's own or others') and established theories, etc etc. Or make YOUR OWN theories ;p

19) A blank face doesn't imply depression. We smile when there's something to smile about, so don't lecture about how we'll live longer if we smile more.

20) Thinking with logic is always appreciated and it doesn't take much effort. If you think we are amazingly gifted for solving problems it isn't because we are unusually smart, it's only because we think.

21) We don't believe in dogmas or that "things are the way they are because that's how they are, so accept it". We don't accept things, if you want us to accept or understand something, then explain it.

22) Silence doesn't mean I'm bored, not interested or not paying attention to what you are saying. Silence means we are actually interested, in deep thought and analysing what you are saying.

23) No, we don't seek knowledge to manipulate people or rule the world; we are not megalomaniacs. We seek knowledge because we are naturally curious and want to understand everything.

24)Sometimes isolation and relaxing in silence while reading a book or just watching the nature and analise the beauty, the perfection of it all and how it works, is one of our favorite ways to have fun and it doesn't mean we are bored or that we don't like you. So don't disturb us thinking you are doing us a favor: it is actually annoying

25) We value accuracy and precision -- please, when talking to us, try to make sure whatever you are stating is factually and/or grammatically correct. We will try to correct you if whatever you are stating is not as accurate as it could be. And please understand, we are not trying to offend you or trying to be pricks -- we just want to stop people from being misconstrued. Also, punctuation is not just for English majors. Please keep that in mind.

26) As smart and as intellectualy motivated as we may be, we still make mistakes. Contrary to general opinion, being corrected while we are wrong is always appreciated, so don't be scared of pointing out our mistakes: we'll actually thank you.

27) Encourage us. We tend to hold ourselves to extremely high personal standards, whether or not we let the rest of the world in on them, and it helps to have other people recognize what we are striving for. Though, do keep in mind that if you are encouraging just for the sake of encouragement and not because we are actually succeeding, we'll recognize it and hear it as empty.

28) Don't think we're lazy and unmotivated just because your motivation speeches didn't get us moving with the rest of the crowd. INTPs choose their passions carefully, and the words of the most on-fire speaker will go under intense scrutiny before we decide whether or not to take their side. That said, should we decide to take up said cause, idea, or job, we will do so both realistically and very thoroughly.
Wow, nicely said. So accurate

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