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This is a hard one for me to understand. Is it only when they are unhealthy that this is an issue? I know two that seem to be excessively concerned about their level of control and refuse for anyone to tell them what to do or that what they do or have done is wrong. One I know wont go to church, because he is that serious about nobody asserting expectations of him. What makes me have less respect for him is that he wont come out and admit to it, but instead act like a whiny baby over completely dillusional offenses. I don't understand. I mean you have to be able to take orders to be part of society, so with maturity can Eights learn that being subordinate is not about being controlled, but about fitting in to the structure of life? Is this a common milestone that every Eight should reach or is like asking a horse to become a donkey? I love Eights, but I think that is one of my biggest pet peeves, is dealing with someone who refuses to answer to others. I love having people in my life that I have to answer to, because that means they either care about me or the society that we are in. Their dissapointment is what keeps me trying harder. Maybe that is my more relational way of thinking that Eights seem to have a lack of respect for.

Also, it seems like every Eight I have been in charge of that challenged me or disobeyed me, it only made things worse for him. I probably made it a point to control him to prove who was in charge after he pushed my buttons, where I wasn't even doing so in the first place. Some managers in my line of work, if you test them and I am one of them, we will just use our position to push and break the person, until its clear that it either wont happen again or he can leave. I hope none of you all are going nuts by me saying I controlled someone.
 

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I mean you have to be able to take orders to be part of society
Why? Speak for yourself. Plus, who said anything about wanting to be a part of society?

but I think that is one of my biggest pet peeves, is dealing with someone who refuses to answer to others. I love having people in my life that I have to answer to, because that means they either care about me or the society that we are in.
Please do not expect others to adhere to your worldviews. There are 9 different enneagram types for a reason.

ome managers in my line of work, if you test them and I am one of them, we will just use our position to push and break the person, until its clear that it either wont happen again or he can leave.
This is why you won't find many 8s in subordinate positions.

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You act as if going to church is something everyone is required to do, and your 8 friend is acting out of line for choosing not to go. It's not.

-As for your question, I don't think it's possible. Depends on how 8 they are.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Why? Speak for yourself. Plus, who said anything about wanting to be a part of society?



Please do not expect others to adhere to your worldviews. There are 9 different enneagram types for a reason.



This is why you won't find many 8s in subordinate positions.

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You act as if going to church is something everyone is required to do, and your 8 friend is acting out of line for choosing not to go. It's not.

-As for your question, I don't think it's possible. Depends on how 8 they are.
I understand they are my views and I am not saying that mine are right or better. I am expressing my irritation and trying to find out if there is more of a middle ground. I also did not say he was wrong or bad for not going to church, but that I am bothered by his reason for not going.
 

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I understand they are my views and I am not saying that mine are right or better. I am expressing my irritation and trying to find out if there is more of a middle ground. I also did not say he was wrong or bad for not going to church, but that I am bothered by his reason for not going.
Hmm...

Well, you can try to control an 8 yet hide the fact that you're controlling them, but from my understanding, 8s have one of the most hi-tech bullshit detectors.
 

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Well, first of all, are you really talking to Eights?

Because those traits could be more than one Enneagram type, and Eights are the least understood of the types. In fact, I could easily list counterphobic Sixes as a possible type.
The main person that sparked me to make this post, I can't figure out if he is more 5 or 8. He says he is more Eight. His stubborness about being controlled seems Fivish, but I don't know. He actually does not seem as reactive as most Eights I know. And I have noticed that his resistance stems from pride, fear, and some kind of weakness, rather than asserting dominance or strength. I guess stubborness could be the key word, because Eights seem more direct than stubborn. Stubborn sounds passive. Unless that could also be an 8w9. I don't know. I'm glad you ask.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hmm...

Well, you can try to control an 8 yet hide the fact that you're controlling them, but from my understanding, 8s have one of the most hi-tech bullshit detectors.
What do you mean, that I was bullshitting you in my response or were you making reference to my OP about me controlling them?
 

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What do you mean, that I was bullshitting you in my response or were you making reference to my OP about me controlling them?
I don't understand, are you looking to emotionally rant or are you looking for a solution to the question in your thread title?

My previous comment was referring to the ladder.
 
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What you described in the OP could easily come from a 5, cp6, 7, 8, 1 or even 3. Heck, it could come from any of the types with the possible exception of 9. Basically, a rational individual who recognizes themselves as an autonomous being will not blindly fall in line with society's demands. All id types (3,7,8), especially, and 5 and cp6s are particularly averse to going along to get along. Insubordination is about asserting control. It's not limited to 8s. The point you made about fear and negation of weakness points towards cp6. Weakness/insubordination/powerlessness don't lie at the forefront of an 8's consciousness, but they do in case of cp6.

If accountability just means getting them to do things they don't care for, accept defeat before you've even started;). It won't happen. 8/cp6 or whatever, goading them will not work. Be respectful. They will respond to respect, if they're mature and well-adjusted. If they cross the line with you, assert your boundaries strongly and know when to leave them barking in the background. 8w9s tend not to "bark", though. That's more of a cp6/ unhealthy 8w7 thing.

8w9s, 9s in general (underneath the placid exterior) and cp6w5s can be among the most mulish, bull-headed stubborn as fuck types on the Enneagram. Add ones to the list. Stubbornness is a gut type thing, in general.


Work Situation:

As for being challenged by 8s, cp6s and 8s are can get very challenging and confrontational when they feel like someone higher above in the hierarchy (something they're not at peace with at all) is either not fit for that position or for some other reason along the control/assertion theme. 8s are more likely to snatch power out of a desire to dominate and lead. 6s will focus more in issues surrounding abuse of power. Either way, if they think you're unfit as a leader, they will put you in your place if at all possible. Even if they do think you're fit for the position, cp6s will test your authority repeatedly. 8s..not so much. They won't stay subordinate for long, though. With cp6s, you will be questioned, challenged and prodded at every step, until you pass their testing. You can then expect co-operation and respect. Stay calm.

I've had cp6s and 8s, work under me, and I have a much easier time with the latter. I am compelled to get rid of the cp6s as soon as the testing begins, but I know when it's worth my time to respond and when it isn't. lol. 6s are better team players, though overall. They also tend to have a more "other-oriented" outlook which can result in tremendously awesome displays of co-operation, dedication and effective leadership. When I see potential, I don't discard it only because the 8/6 or occasional 7w8 is getting all testy and confrontational on my ass.

Anyway, just show respect. And, Make sure you receive it. Stay calm, and stay assertive. The "push and break" strategy doesn't work on these types. You can fully expect to be pushed right back.
At any rate, if all else fails (communication, respect, calmness), get rid of them.

P.S. Don't meddle with their personal lives- religious beliefs etc. ever.
 

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This is a hard one for me to understand. Is it only when they are unhealthy that this is an issue? I know two that seem to be excessively concerned about their level of control and refuse for anyone to tell them what to do or that what they do or have done is wrong. One I know wont go to church, because he is that serious about nobody asserting expectations of him. What makes me have less respect for him is that he wont come out and admit to it, but instead act like a whiny baby over completely dillusional offenses. I don't understand. I mean you have to be able to take orders to be part of society, so with maturity can Eights learn that being subordinate is not about being controlled, but about fitting in to the structure of life? Is this a common milestone that every Eight should reach or is like asking a horse to become a donkey? I love Eights, but I think that is one of my biggest pet peeves, is dealing with someone who refuses to answer to others. I love having people in my life that I have to answer to, because that means they either care about me or the society that we are in. Their dissapointment is what keeps me trying harder. Maybe that is my more relational way of thinking that Eights seem to have a lack of respect for.

Also, it seems like every Eight I have been in charge of that challenged me or disobeyed me, it only made things worse for him. I probably made it a point to control him to prove who was in charge after he pushed my buttons, where I wasn't even doing so in the first place. Some managers in my line of work, if you test them and I am one of them, we will just use our position to push and break the person, until its clear that it either wont happen again or he can leave. I hope none of you all are going nuts by me saying I controlled someone.
- if they work for you and they are failing to communicate as necessary to do their job, fire them. an 8 with any sense will cooperate with you because they choose to collect a pay check.
- if it's your personal life, who cares? no one needs to "take orders" unless they are forced to. take heed, if you trap a tiger, he will try to eat you
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What you described in the OP could easily come from a 5, cp6, 7, 8, 1 or even 3. Heck, it could come from any of the types with the possible exception of 9. Basically, a rational individual who recognizes themselves as an autonomous being will not blindly fall in line with society's demands. All id types (3,7,8), especially, and 5 and cp6s are particularly averse to going along to get along. Insubordination is about asserting control. It's not limited to 8s. The point you made about fear and negation of weakness points towards cp6. Weakness/insubordination/powerlessness don't lie at the forefront of an 8's consciousness, but they do in case of cp6.

If accountability just means getting them to do things they don't care for, accept defeat before you've even started;). It won't happen. 8/cp6 or whatever, goading them will not work. Be respectful. They will respond to respect, if they're mature and well-adjusted. If they cross the line with you, assert your boundaries strongly and know when to leave them barking in the background. 8w9s tend not to "bark", though. That's more of a cp6/ unhealthy 8w7 thing.

8w9s, 9s in general (underneath the placid exterior) and cp6w5s can be among the most mulish, bull-headed stubborn as fuck types on the Enneagram. Add ones to the list. Stubbornness is a gut type thing, in general.


Work Situation:

As for being challenged by 8s, cp6s and 8s are can get very challenging and confrontational when they feel like someone higher above in the hierarchy (something they're not at peace with at all) is either not fit for that position or for some other reason along the control/assertion theme. 8s are more likely to snatch power out of a desire to dominate and lead. 6s will focus more in issues surrounding abuse of power. Either way, if they think you're unfit as a leader, they will put you in your place. Even if they do think you're fit for the position, cp6s will test your authority repeatedly. 8s..not so much. They won't stay subordinate for long, though. With cp6s, you will be questioned, challenged and prodded at every step, until you pass their testing. You can then expect co-operation and respect. Stay calm.

I've had cp6s and 8s, work under me, and I have a much easier time with the latter. I am compelled to get rid of the cp6s as soon as the testing begins, but I know when it's worth my time to respond and when it isn't. lol. 6s are better team players, though overall. They also tend to have a more "other-oriented" outlook which can result in tremendously awesome displays of co-operation, dedication and effective leadership. When I see potential, I don't discard it only because the 8/6 or occasional 7w8 is getting all testy and confrontational on my ass.

Anyway, just show respect. And, Make sure you receive it. Stay calm, and stay assertive. The "push and break" strategy doesn't work on these types. You can fully expect to be pushed right back, and perhaps, even 'broken' if the 8/cp6 etc. happen to succeed at getting their way.
Thank you so much for explaining that. That was really helpful. I love your description of being stubborn as fuck and bull-headed. Haha. I am leaning towards him being a 5 with your description.

I don't think its so much that I want him to do what he doesn't want to do... its more like wanting him to be accountable to his behavior. I guess that is the same thing though. :/ I think he has a personality disorder big time, which could be why I am having trouble typing him. When I think of an average Eight getting out of line or abusive, I think of them as having more integrity or having those intentions, with an "oops, I crossed that line" here and there. This guy is just low down dirty. Like there is no obligation, integrity, or responsibility in his games at all. He might admit to his wrongdoings from time to time, but it doesn't mean he will do anything about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
- if they work for you and they are failing to communicate as necessary to do their job, fire them. an 8 with any sense will cooperate with you because they choose to collect a pay check.
- if it's your personal life, who cares? no one needs to "take orders" unless they are forced to. take heed, if you trap a tiger, he will try to eat you
Well I don't want to hold a tiger captive. I am just curious about this type, probably mostly, because I hope to one day have a 3-8 man. :)
 

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Well I don't want to hold a tiger captive. I am just curious about this type, probably mostly, because I hope to one day have a 3-8 man. :)
as long as you have one that is competent and respects your rights, you will have no need for him to "take orders"
 
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This is a hard one for me to understand. Is it only when they are unhealthy that this is an issue? I know two that seem to be excessively concerned about their level of control and refuse for anyone to tell them what to do or that what they do or have done is wrong. One I know wont go to church, because he is that serious about nobody asserting expectations of him. What makes me have less respect for him is that he wont come out and admit to it, but instead act like a whiny baby over completely dillusional offenses. I don't understand. I mean you have to be able to take orders to be part of society, so with maturity can Eights learn that being subordinate is not about being controlled, but about fitting in to the structure of life? Is this a common milestone that every Eight should reach or is like asking a horse to become a donkey? I love Eights, but I think that is one of my biggest pet peeves, is dealing with someone who refuses to answer to others. I love having people in my life that I have to answer to, because that means they either care about me or the society that we are in. Their dissapointment is what keeps me trying harder. Maybe that is my more relational way of thinking that Eights seem to have a lack of respect for.

Also, it seems like every Eight I have been in charge of that challenged me or disobeyed me, it only made things worse for him. I probably made it a point to control him to prove who was in charge after he pushed my buttons, where I wasn't even doing so in the first place. Some managers in my line of work, if you test them and I am one of them, we will just use our position to push and break the person, until its clear that it either wont happen again or he can leave. I hope none of you all are going nuts by me saying I controlled someone.
Anyone who comes at me thinking they are "in charge of me" is going to be in for a rude awakening. I assume that this is somehow a work related comment, because if this is about a romantic relationship...all I can say, is you're doing it wrong. I am in charge at my job. I'm the boss. Do I have a boss? The person above me is the one who owns the company. He leaves me alone to do what I do and I do it well. I'm loyal. When my autonomy to make decisions is respected, that is when I do my best. If I suck at what I do (and you're so convinced that you can do it better,) don't try to change me, bend me to your will, accuse me of "disobeying" or try to force me to submit. Just fire me. Although, with my personality, I would quit before that happened because the one thing I can't stand more than inefficiency is incompetence. I would view anyone trying to control me, manipulate me and acting like they have the right to do either as incompetent. True leadership doesn't require a domineering attitude. Either you have it or you don't. If you do, you don't have to go around telling everyone, it's understood. Demanding and controlling behavior isn't necessary, imo, it just shows a lack of actual power. If I smell weakness like that, um yeah, good luck.
 

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@MsCheshire

I agree. Power should be 'felt'. 8s tend to assume dominance. Mature 8s don't go around rubbing their assertiveness/aggression in people's faces. This "show of strength" is a rather weak and immature thing to them. Bosses who exude authority and don't feel the need to shove it down people's throats are far more effective than those who try to break people or micro-manage them.
 

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Thank you so much for explaining that. That was really helpful. I love your description of being stubborn as fuck and bull-headed. Haha. I am leaning towards him being a 5 with your description.

I don't think its so much that I want him to do what he doesn't want to do... its more like wanting him to be accountable to his behavior. I guess that is the same thing though. :/ I think he has a personality disorder big time, which could be why I am having trouble typing him. When I think of an average Eight getting out of line or abusive, I think of them as having more integrity or having those intentions, with an "oops, I crossed that line" here and there. This guy is just low down dirty. Like there is no obligation, integrity, or responsibility in his games at all. He might admit to his wrongdoings from time to time, but it doesn't mean he will do anything about it.
lol you're welcome.

Average health (EI definition) people of any type will be able to recognize mistakes, more or less. But, a lack of integrity and irresponsibility is completely unrelated to Type. What kind of accountability are you talking about and looking for ? Please explain in some detail. Also, is this a strictly professional relationship or is there more to it?

P.S. I was being factitious about the "you'll be left broken part" lol;). Check post again.
 

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I'm going to highlight the inflammatory words that would cause me to be less cooperative and then comment in blue below.
This is a hard one for me to understand. Is it only when they are unhealthy that this is an issue? I don't need anyone to hold me accountable in my job. I have always known what my job is and I do it. And, I do it well. I expect whoever is in leadership to trust me to be an adult and to interact with me as an adult. In other words, trust me to do my job. I prefer to keep myself accountable rather than have someone else to keep me accountable. I know two that seem to be excessively concerned about their level of control and refuse for anyone to tell them what to do I'm an adult. Why do you need to tell me what to do. This may be semantics but as an adult you ask me to do...not tell me to do. or that what they do or have done is wrong. It's all in how you say it. I don't have a problem with constructive feedback as a matter of fact I welcome it. The sooner the better because it gives me the opportunity to correct my actions. However, not every one is skilled in communicating to someone when they have done something incorrectly. One I know wont go to church, because he is that serious about nobody asserting expectations of him. What makes me have less respect for him is that he wont come out and admit to it, but instead act like a whiny baby over completely dillusional offenses. I cannot relate to acting like a whiny baby. If I have a problem with something a team member is doing whether it is management or co-worker...I will communicate it. I don't understand. I mean you have to be able to take orders to be part of society, so with maturity can Eights learn that being subordinate is not about being controlled, but about fitting in to the structure of life? I think this paradigm of taking orders on a job is a thing of the past. The culture in most companies at least where I live is one of leadership. Taking orders from a leadership position implies to me that someone thinks they are entitled because they have a label. Everyone has choices and no one HAS to take orders. We choose to follow directions, requests, etc. I mean really who is anyone to think they can order people around? Again it may be semantics but they are inflammatory words/phrases. Is this a common milestone that every Eight should reach or is like asking a horse to become a donkey? I personally don't think this is an Eight issue. I love Eights, but I think that is one of my biggest pet peeves, is dealing with someone who refuses to answer to others. Why is there an expectation that someone needs to answer to others? This speaks to control issues. And, yeah if you are approaching an Eight in a controlling, ordering, do as I say manner...good luck with that one. I love having people in my life that I have to answer to, because that means they either care about me or the society that we are in. Their dissapointment is what keeps me trying harder. Maybe that is my more relational way of thinking that Eights seem to have a lack of respect for. I don't feel a need to answer to anyone. I an independent, autonomous adults and I assume others are to. "Answer to", in my opinion, is a phrase that wreaks of control issues it reflects a paradigm that says that person thinks they are in a superior position to other.

Also, it seems like every Eight I have been in charge of that challenged me or disobeyed me, "Disobeyed me" what are we talking about kids or adults here? it only made things worse for him. I probably made it a point to control him "Definitely sounds like it so it makes me wonder who really owns the problem here....and it makes me wonder which came first the chicken or the egg. In other words, did resistance come first or the controlling. to prove who was in charge <---From my experience this is a classic phrase straight out the control freak's/micromanger's handbook. after he pushed my buttons, where I wasn't even doing so in the first place. Some managers in my line of work, if you test them and I am one of them, we will just use our position to push and break the person, until its clear that it either wont happen again or he can leave. This strategy sounds counterproductive at best...if I owned a company I would fire all of the management team and hire people who understand what it means to be a true leader. I hope none of you all are going nuts by me saying I controlled someone. Nope you didn't drive me nuts....I just thank God that I don't have to deal with type of management style in my job because it wouldn't be me without the job it would be a manager who uses bullying tactics in the workplace with a lawsuit so far up their ass they would think they were constipated. This is ridiculous. Where I live bullying in the workplace is grounds for lodging a complaint against managers. Besides, I much rather work for a leader than a manager. Managers rely on carrots and sticks to intimidate and/or reward people into doing their jobs. Leaders rely on influence, leading by example, teamwork, valuing diversity, and host of other things to inspire people to trust them and willingly do their job. The former at best can expect non-cooperation or stubborn cooperation at best. Good luck to you in continuing to manage people in this manner.
 

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Speaking from my experience in the navy, being subordinate to others is a killer. It feels like the ceiling is about to crush me. Every so often I met an officer who knew how to talk to me, and those were the best.

The problem I used to complain about in the navy was, my superior officers always expected emotional submission next to logical submission. What's the difference?

Logical submission = I am a lower rank than my superior officer. I will do what he tells me to because it is my job. Will I like it? Probably not. Will I complain about it? As long as I understand that its my job and the expectations aren't much farther than that, I won't have a problem.

Emotional submission = viewing myself as less than who is giving me orders. I used to actually try to do this, but I'd actually start acting very insecure. It was extremely difficult and people lost respect for me. I see right through rank and title. I don't care. I see the human being within the uniform for who they are and what they're capable of. It doesn't matter if they have a silver eagle on their collar and I only have a gold bar. I used to meet admirals and joke around with them like we were buddy buddy while everyone else is terrified of them. It doesn't really make any sense. I understood by their rank that they had a lot of experience and should be respected, which I did respect them. But there was no point in fearing them.

So with that being said, when you are looking for submission, it seems to me you're looking for control, which they will never give you. What you need to remember is, they chose to work for you, which technically should mean that if you ask them politely to do something, they should be willing to do it. Like, say an elephant wanted to work for your company (assuming elephants can do human tasks), you're not going to wrap ropes around it and pull it in the direction you want. You're going to have to coax it into doing what you want. Maybe put a carrot in front of it so it has some incentive to move. I think the carrot technique should really only be used if they arn't willing to help you out. Ask politely and they (at least I would) appreciate your politeness.
 
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