Personality Cafe banner

21 - 38 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
702 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Haha, then you must be a 4w3 if you had any doubts. I should have stayed with a Tennessee Williams (obvious 4) theme, and said Tom Wingfield from "The Glass Menagerie" is likely a 4w5. I relate to him a lot. Riso-Hudson say Blanche is 4w3 and Laura Wingfield is 4w5. I think Laura is a dissociated 9w1 instead, though her character is symbolic of Type 4. I also see this in John Merrick of "The Elephant Man." He's representative of Type 4 so-instinct, but he's played as a gentle, self-effacing 9. Though he is born deformed, there's really no sense of shame, longing, or self-pity in the character. A character like The Phantom from "Phantom of the Opera" is a so-instinct 4w5 who does display typical 4 behaviors/fixations.

Edit: The Phantom is a sx-instinct.
I absolutely love the Phantom but I'm more Blanche honestly, as far as general attitude. She cares what people think and has an elegance to her. The Phantom doesn't seem to care about much but his music and Christine, doesn't care what people think of that. He bares his soul. Blanche does too, but she shifts what people see. I do see the distinction now, but I'm still sort of new to the enneagram.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
146 Posts
No they don't have to be showy and outwardly dramatic..
"Fours with a 3 wing can sometimes seem like Sevens. May be outgoing, have a sense of humor and style. Prize being both creative and effective in the world. Both intuitive and ambitious; may have good imaginations, often talented. Some are colorful, fancy dressers, make a distinct impression. Self-knowledge combines well with social and organizational skills. When more entranced, often have a public/private split. Could conceal feelings in public then go home to loneliness. Or they could enjoy their work and be dissatisfied in love. Tendency towards melodrama and flamboyance; true feelings can often be hidden. Competitive, sneaky, aware of how they look. Some have bad taste. May be fickle in love, drawn to romantic images that they have projected onto others. Could have a dull spouse, then fantasize about glamorous strangers. Achievements can be tainted by jealousy, revenge, or a desire to prove the crowd wrong."

Hmm.. when i read this and the 4w5 im starting to think I may be 4w5 instead. I relate to both but this:
"Loners; can seem enigmatic and hard to read. Externally reserved and internally resonant. When they open up it can be sudden and total. When entranced or defensive, Fours with a 5 wing can easily feel alienated and depressed. Many have a sense of not belonging, of being from another planet. Can get lost in their own process, drown in their own ocean. Whiny - tend to ruminate and relive past experience. Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment." very much. ahh idk anymore.
It seems to be quite a good description.
I know two 4s (maybe my ex was four as well so it would be 3), and even if for me it is an evidence that we are absolutely connected and that we are extremely similar inside, our behaviors and reactions are absolutely different.
They tend to be mysterious, they don't like to show how they feel and would rather be upset in silence than showing they care. They are a lot more introverted than me.
I am 4w3, and I tend to be a bit melodramatic, totally unable to keep things for me when I am upset ... I need things to be clear, whereas the other fours I know are just withdrawing and stay silent. I can do that too, but I need the drama and the explosion beforehand.

I always figured they were 4w5.

The two descriptions above confirm that. I am totally like the description of the 4w3 and they are absolutely like the 4w5, so for me, it is quite accurate.
Of course, I also have this mysterious part of loneliness in myself, also think I come from another planet sometimes. Because even if my wing is 3, I am still a 4.
But I think it is a lot stronger for 4w5.

I might totally be wrong, but I think that if you totally relate to 4w3 but hesitate with 4w5 because of certain points, it is because there is something "mysterious", melancholic and dark in the 4w5, and those things are just present in every four. I don't know if I am clear.
I am absolutely sure I am 4w3 and I absolutely don't behave like a 4w5 from the outside, but I can relate to them anyway because my "deep" inner self is close to them. That doesn't mean I am 4w5 at all.

I also think that sometimes, maybe you just don't have a very powerful wing (which obviously is clearly not the case for me :p)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
My mom is a 4w5. She really does not care what people think of her. If people don't like her or disapprove or whatever, she figures it's a total failing on their part.

For me . . . I really do care what people think. I wonder if that's a function of our wings. She's Sp dom and I'm apparently Sx, so that might be part of it too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
146 Posts
I think it's quite weird for a four not to care about what other people think.
I thought the heart triad was actually "famous" for its need of being loved and accepted by others.
But I guess that the healthier you are, the more you can get over that.

I am saying this, but I don't really know actually. I am just repeating things I've read, there is a lot I need to learn about the enneagram
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
I'm 4w5 and have only more recently been in touch with the 3 side (I mean, it was always there, but it wasn't something I closely identified with).

I do think the "cerebral" descriptor is very apt, though it does apply to just 4 and 5 in general and 5w4 as well.

4w5 makes you more withdrawn than 4w3, which is not to be confused with degree of introversion, or even shyness.
It means that when I come across something and I can't get my way being me, being or seeming unique or creative, getting my way via 4 tactics, I may withdraw to think and plan it through, study it on my own. 3, I think, is more likely to make a pleasant assertion and take action, even if the action is just talking it out.
I think w3 is less averse to being in the limelight, often craving it whereas w5 wants to sit in a dark corner with a sketchbook or lute or something

I used to actually also be confused by the 4ness and the 5ness because they feel so incredibly separate. Both are entirely me and something I identify very closely with, but I feel like entirely different people when I think about those two mindsets. Part of me wants to sift through every emotion I'm feeling and part of me detaches from it. They come together in wanting to analyse all the feelings in the world and delve deep into the human psyche on all accounts.

The 3 side pushes me to achieve, is sort of the best way I can express it. I don't relate to it as strongly as some, who identify with the 3's brand of image-focus, "I am what I do." w3 would identify more fully with the image triad's 'fake it till you make it' mantra (while w5 is yelling with its hands on its head 'fake what??? What are we doing????'). As I've grown to access it more it's sort of like using it to justify "doing."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
787 Posts
I think it's a very confusing and difficult distinction to make. At the end of the day, we're all 4s, so we should theoretically have an awful lot in common no matter what. Broad generalizations never work, especially since the 3-wing and 5-wing aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. According to some lines of reasoning, we should all have elements of both wings to different degrees.

I've been agonizing over my own dominant wing recently. It's definitely a conundrum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
All quotes from Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.
4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
I think a huge deciding factor I've noticed between the two:

4w3 tend to be very goal driven.
4w5 tend to be very individual driven.

As a 4w3, I honestly cannot find myself existing without every single action and thought of mine being tied to some form of success I wish to achieve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
As a 4w5, I never really cared about success or fame. So the 3 side is alien to me.

I both care about what others think, and don't care what others think.

For example, if I produce a piece of art and they weren't accepted by people... ehh, I wouldn't care.

If I thought that people were beneath me, I wouldn't care.

If someone directly insults me and decide that he is just a nasty person, I wouldn't care. However, I would care if the person was usually nice or something.

If some random person looks at me funny or something, I would care. I am really terrified of rejection and being hated, but I don't mind being an outcast.

So it's weird... I both care A LOT about what others think, and at other times, I don't. It's almost as if I pick and choose what to care and what not to care .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
731 Posts
Type 4 is an image type.

The goal is to ultimately find your identity.

A 4w3 would find their "identity" in their achievements.
A 4w5 would find their "identity" in their knowledge.

A 4w3 will feel ashamed if they fail something important
A 4w5 will feel ashamed if they weren't prepared for something important
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
742 Posts
I'm really over-dramatic, and I almost have sort of a 'split-personality' and a bit of a schism resulting in self loathing as I get mad at myself for being so disingenuous and fake; whilst at the same time, always putting too much pressure on myself to be 'exceptional' in some way.

I can be really lively, social, and amiable; and the next, withdrawn, pensive and reserved. Both sides are quite often in conflict with each other. I really desire to be authentic and real, and I sometimes have to remind myself to reel everything back in a bit, and get back in touch with who 'I' really am, and not to be so focused on shallow or superficial pursuits. Sometimes, I force myself to do things that aren't authentic or genuine to myself, and it makes me feel really sad and like some slutty Mc-Hooker face, or something, but yet for some reason, i cannot stop. I can't ever fully stop trying to strive and be 'successful'

but if I ever do reach my desire for 'success' and 'accomplishment' I would just give up and become totally lazy and not give a crap. Because deep down, I resent all of it.

But I sort of like working hard, and seeing how all your hard work pay off. It's really fulfilling (I used to be really lazy; so more so because of that) Of course, it can't just be anything. It has to be something that is meaningful and personal significant to me. I cannot quite put in the same amount of effort into a normal job, and a lot people still think I'm lazy because of that. That, or I am thought of as some kind of swindler, Which in all honestly, I probably am just a little bit.

I suppose my 3-wing seeks to make myself feel 'special' and 'unique' by fitting into a more conventionally attractive molds, and to desire to have some sort of 'pzazz'

It's really easy for me to lose track of myself and what I really desire or is the best for me, though. Liable to get a little burnt out.
I'm a walking contradiction!
Spoken like a true 4w3 :).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
742 Posts
I acted like a 4w5 for I while because I wanted to be one and wanted people to see me that way :laughing:.

Short way to tell: if they really care about what other people think, they're a 4w3. This is demonstrated in doing things strictly for a good impression or pleasing someone else. I'm a major people-pleaser, but I also hate it because I'll abandon my own opinions and identity to be accepted. But when I'm all about my identity, I feel like a selfish prick because I know how much I might be offending people :/.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts


Fours are image types, so idk why people think 4w5 wouldn't care about their appearance. I care about my appearance and looking stylish, I generally follow normal fashion trends. I wasn't always that way but I've started caring more recently.



 

·
Banned
Joined
·
206 Posts
4w3:
Passions are envy+deceit.
Has more of an ego but may often be oblivious to it.
Is more of the over-doer.
They are attracted to grandiosity.
They seem more like a walking contradiction due to the difference of the 4 core and the 3 wing.
Seems ISFPish or ENFPish.

4w5:
Passions are envy+avarice.
Often seem to be insecure?
Is more of the overthinker.
They are attracted to minimalism.
Their 4 core and 5 wing seems to flow together more.
Seems INFPish.
 
21 - 38 of 38 Posts
Top