How to think structurally?

I'm reminded of something my mom does (who I believe is entp) and a girl at work (also entp) I noticed does, which is change topic w/o others being aware, and causing confusion. So like they might be talking about topic A and then it goes off into some tangent about topic B, and then they'll say something about A using pronouns, and w/o any indication that they're returning to talking about topic A so you think they're talking about subject B when they're really talking about A. ...I think enpts can do that and lose people, jumping between subjects, but not clarifying what subject they are then talking about and causing confusion.

I don't know if that's really what you're talking about. What you're describing. "Sometimes, when I have to present an idea to sensors, I have to explain the step by step process for them to be happy and accept it" makes me think of ENFPs.. to me ENFPs always have such brilliant ideas, but the logic of how they got them seems magical or just random.. like it will make sense what they came up w/ but how they came up w/ it is a mystery, just seems random and they won't be able to explain their train of thought. Were as myself (and I'm guessing w/ entps) a strength is being able to explain my train of thought and reasoning behind why I think something: how I came to an opinion, came up w/ an idea etc. ...that doesn't mean it's always easy to use that ability to explain my train of thought as a persuasive tool because the explanation can become long winded and winding and I might bore and lose people's attention if I get into sharing my train of thought too much, but it is something I am always easily able to pull out and present (though the presentation might not be that entertaining).

If anything though I think I am eager to explain my ideas... I'm even eager to explain other people's reasoning to each other.. I'll see two people disagreeing, and want to and sometimes am like to person Y in front of person X they are arguing w/ "I think person X is thinking we should _ because yada yada." Like as an example (to continue rambling) I was just earlier watching Harmonquest (Dan Harmon and friends playing dungeons and dragons, makes me want to play that game, never have) and in a part there was a puzzle w/ 3 paths, and Dan Harmon thought they should go to the right where the arrow was pointing, they had just passed through path where arrow had been pointing last, so it seemed logical that since that did something, that following arrow again would work. The other guy was like we should go left... there was clearly a logical explanation that Dan Harmon could have given that I would have quickly given, it did something/arrow changed when we followed arrow, so lets follow arrow again, but Dan was just "nah, i'm going to try to ignore your opinion and charge ahead, rather than explain myself." ..and watching that I was like why didn't he just explain himself instead of acting like a dick? ...so I'm definitely someone who is able to and eager to provide logical explanation and details of my train of thought and even other people's train of thoughts. ...my struggle is more that doing so tends to often be overkill and I'll bore them like I prob did to you just now w/ this post.

So @LemniscateWolf I'm not sure if what you are describing, is an inability to explain yourself or a meh, it'd take too long. I don't relate to the inability, but often I am like meh, it takes to long to explain and you'll prob get bored.

I always compared it to inside-out vs outside-in thinking. I believe that NTs are outside-in thinkers since they tend to draw small information from large topics, basically big picture thinking. You see the whole and adjust the whole for the small information.

The other type of thinking, inside-out thinking, is more logical, mathematical. It starts from the small bit of information and builds it outwards into the whole. So if you want to call it structured, the small bit of information adds to the basic understanding of the concept, which is built upwards until the big picture is realized.

I think intuitives are just good at shortcuts.

I have this problem all the time. I'm always jump from topic to topic, or so I've been told. My friends thinks it funny while my family gets annoyed by it. I've been told all my life to, "warn people before I switch topics" on them. So I try to but to be honest, I don't always know where they would get confused because it all relates in my head. To me it's not really switching topics. Anyways, the more I get to know someone the more I adapt to their way of communicating and it gets better. It's more being patient with people and being willing to explain how to I got somewhere and eventually people adjust to my way of thinking too. Eventually I can usually meet them halfway. Anyways, I don't really have a desire to think more structurally because I view my way of thinking as structured, equally valid, and just different from some other people's. Personally, I much rather just explain how I got there and if it's not that important I'll just say nevermind and move on.

Trans-contextual thinking - a person with Ne in their dominant slot is naturally going to be very good at this. Incidentally, it can lead to being perceived as not making a lot of sense and rather tangential in general.

My advice is to consciously slow down when you have to communicate your thoughts and ideas. Because remember, Ti and Fe exist on an axis, and by not allowing space for your third function to operate you will decrease your chances of communicating successfully. And being able to make yourself understood is going to be instrumental in terms of your ideas being valued and/or of any use (at least to others). I guess what I'm saying is that while it might be natural for you to gloss over certain specifics when speaking, that's not going to work with the majority of people.

In other words; you already possess structured thinking(Ti), you just need to learn how to tailor it to a specific audience(Fe).

One way to learn to maintain a linear track of thinking is to write down everything you are thinking about. For example, if you want to talk about apples, then as long as you write everything down you won't get off track too long. After starting with apples 1, you are free to go over to religion and biology, then politics and the economy. After you are done with all of that, you can go back to apples 2. Then you can go to biology and politics and come back to apples 3. Later, edit your document to gather all of the apples. Then you can read your document and be more conscious about your thought process.

After you do that a few times for different things, you will train yourself to think linearly by skipping all of the detours. But it's good to have detours once in a while, because that's creativity.

clem said:

One way to learn to maintain a linear track of thinking is to write down everything you are thinking about. For example, if you want to talk about apples, then as long as you write everything down you won't get off track too long. After starting with apples 1, you are free to go over to religion and biology, then politics and the economy. After you are done with all of that, you can go back to apples 2. Then you can go to biology and politics and come back to apples 3. Later, edit your document to gather all of the apples. Then you can read your document and be more conscious about your thought process.

After you do that a few times for different things, you will train yourself to think linearly by skipping all of the detours. But it's good to have detours once in a while, because that's creativity.

Click to expand...

Listen to the ENTJ. My life hack that I figured out in college is that I have to have an outline to adhere to effectively communicate with most people. I do not like to have a constrained set speech but by making an outline, I can keep my thoughts in a much more linear fashion and I don't forget something important. There are way more Js and Sensors in this world who tend to need a nice clear path when communicating. Even other NPs can get lost if we are not providing enough information to keep them on track. It's not their fault, it actually lies on us. It does not matter how smart you are or that you have solved the world's problems if you cannot express your thoughts in a usable way, you might as well be the village idiot.

In my career, I write reports and also give presentations. In my private life, I also have given presentations to school aged kids and college kids and am a Girl Scout leader. I have to communicate effectively. I am also borderline ADHD and have Ne up the wazoo (like 95% on the scale). In all circumstances I start with an outline. In report writing, I start every project by setting up my template to make sure I cover the topics I need to. In a presentation, I set an outline and then work on putting a powerpoint presentation that helps trigger my thoughts (without writing down what I am going to say). With my girl scouts, I make a meeting plan outline to make sure I cover what we need to and in an order that makes sense.

IDontThinkSo said:

I/E is its own separate axis.

Click to expand...

Yes, to decide the orientation of the function (Ji/Je - Pi/Pe). If you take both axes into account, all you get in terms of T/F, is the contrasting relationship between TiFe/TeFi.

What I'm saying is that the single axis of Ti/Fe, specifically demonstrates the subjects inability to concurrently pay attention in two different ways.