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Discussion Starter #1
How would I do this? Winning the argument itself with facts is not a problem. The problem is to get them to acknowledge defeat and stop trying to use transference with logical fallacies and ambiguous phrasing.

My step-dad is ESTJ and we get into petty arguments a lot. When I prove him wrong he will respond with one of several things:
- Total silence as if the argument never occurred. Eventually he might say "I don't have time to talk about this right now!"
- Repetition of something that asserts his position of power over me (ex. "It's my house!"), or repetition of his original position which has been defeated.
- A logical fallacy, usually a straw man or ad hominem.

He also has this way of phrasing statements as questions so that my only possible response can be in answer form, not counter-argument form. It is very hard to explain so I will just save it.

Basically, what is the most effective way of getting an arrogant ESTJ to realize and admit they are wrong? I need tactics, strategies... What has worked on you in the past?

(This is assuming there are, ironically, ESTJ using Internet forums.)
 

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Damn difficult, that's for sure. Even when my point is clearly more logical, he manages to somehow flip my words around or accuse me of something I never said, etc. Most frustrating person I've ever argued with (but he might just be a very unhealthy ESTJ)
 
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It will be challenging to get him to acknowledge that you have "won" the argument while employing only INTJ cognitive functions. Have you tried other approaches, such as using Fi? Maybe if you act less aggressively yourself, he'll listen. It takes a act of devil's advocacy to your own defaults, but if you really care about the situation and not necessarily debating for its own sake, it could work.

Something like "I know you're busy right now, but I really need to talk to you about this. It would mean the world to me."
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Damn difficult, that's for sure. Even when my point is clearly more logical, he manages to somehow flip my words around or accuse me of something I never said, etc. Most frustrating person I've ever argued with (but he might just be a very unhealthy ESTJ)
Yeah I hate that... when he tries to infer some hidden meaning from what I've said and responds to that instead of what I actually said. I wonder why they are so often described as "logical" because it seems like they're immune to logic. Debating with them is like talking to a brick wall; useless.
 

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My girlfriend's father is an ESTJ, an evil evil one. She's INFP and it's a disaster. Since her relationship with her father is really getting in the way of our relationship I've been thinking a lot about strategies that she can use to win an argument with him. (Not that she does them, I tell her "do this, do that" and she never tries anything because she can't see that he's not going to listen to her if she stays in the 'submissive daughter' position).

One of the main problems, I think, is that it's hard for him to treat you as equal on a argument. What I think must be done is for you to really be confident and consistent about your position on the argument. Her point to her dad is "I'm old enough to come home as late as I want to, and go wherever I want to, whenever I want to", she needs to stop asking him to go out. I mean, if she need to go out to, I don't know, go to the bank, she'll kinda ask his permission. Like "I'm going to the bank because I have to do n things, okay dad?" And he says "okay" in his overseer kind of way. But when she does this she's reaffirming his positions as owner of her. What I mean is that you have to be consistent in your actions and your point. You point need to get to him BEFORE the argument. Does this sound right?

Another thing is the confidence of the 'not-need' for his approval. Remember that scene in Fight Club when Darla is asking a lot of questions and the-guy-whose-name-we-don't-know is getting confused as hell and then Tyler start telling him what to do and to end the conversation he tell him to say "This conversation is over"? That's the kind of attitude I think you need when in a argument with a ESTJ, I mean, be a man! Remember, ESTJ value respect, at least make him respect how much of a man you are.

And you're a INTJ, I don't know if this matters, but take off the "life is just a meaningless dream" attitude when you're talking with him. :b
You know? Your neutral look, the I don't really care attitude, the "the way to solve this is purely through rational thought" way of talking. He may be a Thinker and the rational appeal does work, but that's under his authority. He doesn't care if it's right or wrong, it's his house, for christ sake!

And I don't think using the Fi approach will get you anywhere, it doesn't work for my Fi girlfriend, at least. The thing to see here is that for him it isn't about what actually IS right and wrong, but what 'he knows better than you' that is right and wrong, and this, for him, isn't open for discussion.

My point is that this is a case where your attitude will speak louder than your words.
 

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I would totally appreciate feedback on this thread. It's not that I necessarily want to WIN an argument, it's that the arguing is ridiculous. My ESTJ roommate whom I really do love can come at things from a super emotional position. Like "you'd rather do x than spend time with me?" Anyway. I just really like being friends with her. And I've avoided entering into a fight because she can really win! I just want her to know that I love her. How do I get her to talk for real with me?

Thank you dears. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
@StaggerLee Wow, I feel like you are describing the same person when you describe your GF's dad. He does everything you mentioned. That is interesting about the attitude thing, I had never thought of that because attitude does not affect the truth/falsity of anything. But hey, if it works, I'll give it a try. Thanks.

@Owfin true, maybe.. but I'll never know because he would never admit it. He once told me (direct quote) "you have never beaten me in an argument" and then said to get out of the car and walk home for suggesting such a thing. lololol.
 

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The problem isn't he's an ESTJ. It's the fact that he's arrogant. Really, if he's that prideful, don't argue with him. You're not doing yourself any favors.
 

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there are those who are "always right" because their belief in their positions is strong,
and there are those who are "always right" because their ego can't admit defeat.

i can't see inside his mind, so i could be wrong, but it does sound as if he falls into both categories. image matters a lot to him, and it would shatter his "always right" image if he admits that his point has been disproven. you have to settle for the fact that he knows inwardly when he has been disproven, even if he never lets on that he knows.

the only way is to prove your point without even touching on his (contradicting) point. avoid anything that disproves his argument directly. don't shoot down the "false fact" - instead, prove the "true fact." this can't always be done but there are times when you can totally sidestep controversy by positive argument.

you also have to show him respect. don't say anything that makes him feel insulted or like you consider him unknowledgeable regarding the point in question.

ESTJs tend to be sensitive regarding control (that is, if they are type 8, and that seems to be a common type for Te doms). if he feels like he has lost control over his house, or like you are trying to control (translation: change) his actions, you won't ever be able to convince him. if you are trying to convince him to change about something, he will feel controlled and will likely clamp down and become even more stubborn about his point. all you can do is respectfully present the logical arguments that show it would make sense for him to act in a certain way, and then let him decide. no orders, no pushing, no manipulation, no insistence that he change.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
@seastallion The irony is that it'd actually be better for his image if he could admit defeat. Being intellectually honest is something I respect... using fallacious logic is not.

Does this type actually know inwardly when they've been disproven? I've always wondered this.

A lot of it comes down to errors in communication IMO... when I ask why a rule exists he assumes that I'm actually trying to change the rule. He does a lot of assuming and jumping to conclusions. I should probably work on emphasizing my intentions better.


@JuliaRhys Guess I can't argue with an ESTJ, you'd know better than I would. But I have a feeling you're a different sub-type than him. You'd never find him on a forum, it's "not productive". :p
 

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Poptart;2311622[USER=12956 said:
@JuliaRhys[/USER] Guess I can't argue with an ESTJ, you'd know better than I would. But I have a feeling you're a different sub-type than him. You'd never find him on a forum, it's "not productive". :p

It ISN'T productive. But I do it anyways. It's a little thing called "procrastination."
 
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@seastallion The irony is that it'd actually be better for his image if he could admit defeat. Being intellectually honest is something I respect... using fallacious logic is not.

Does this type actually know inwardly when they've been disproven? I've always wondered this.

A lot of it comes down to errors in communication IMO... when I ask why a rule exists he assumes that I'm actually trying to change the rule. He does a lot of assuming and jumping to conclusions. I should probably work on emphasizing my intentions better.


@JuliaRhys Guess I can't argue with an ESTJ, you'd know better than I would. But I have a feeling you're a different sub-type than him. You'd never find him on a forum, it's "not productive". :p
my dad is an ESTJ and he wouldn't be on a forum either, for that reason - it's "not productive." and i know some other ESTJs. my comments are based on the ESTJs i know.

yes, i'd respect someone more if they are willing to admit when they're wrong but - you have to understand - sometimes image-consciousness is based in insecurity...an insecure mind will often present itself as more sure of itself than it actually is. sometimes it's enneagram type 3 in action - i'd venture to guess he might have both 3 and 8 in his tritype.

he's a thinker...yes, he will know when he has been disproven...but he will believe whatever he wants to believe, anyway. ESTJs are very logical and rational in addition to being committed to their opinions.

if you start out by saying that you aren't criticizing the rule or asking to change it, and that you will respect/keep the rule anyway, but you just want to understand his reasons behind that rule, you might have better results. (he may still read disrespect into this, if he thinks in general you are disrespectful towards him...if that's the case, then a clear/consistent change in behavior towards respect, maintained for a while, will adjust his assessment about this.) but you have to ask him this when he's not already riled up or arguing with you...once he's in the position of defending his position, you won't get anywhere with him.
 

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Make them feel smarter than you, then they'll give you an inch of space and then POUNCE!
Just kidding, I don't usually pick arguments against you guys because our communication styles are so different and I don't feel the need to be "right."
 

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How would I do this? Winning the argument itself with facts is not a problem. The problem is to get them to acknowledge defeat and stop trying to use transference with logical fallacies and ambiguous phrasing.

My step-dad is ESTJ and we get into petty arguments a lot. When I prove him wrong he will respond with one of several things:
- Total silence as if the argument never occurred. Eventually he might say "I don't have time to talk about this right now!"
- Repetition of something that asserts his position of power over me (ex. "It's my house!"), or repetition of his original position which has been defeated.
- A logical fallacy, usually a straw man or ad hominem.

He also has this way of phrasing statements as questions so that my only possible response can be in answer form, not counter-argument form. It is very hard to explain so I will just save it.

Basically, what is the most effective way of getting an arrogant ESTJ to realize and admit they are wrong? I need tactics, strategies... What has worked on you in the past?

(This is assuming there are, ironically, ESTJ using Internet forums.)
If you want to win the argument, ironically enough appeal to his sense of reasonableness/fairness. Compromise a little, but then say something like "but you HAVE to admit xyz...", xyz being a little less assertive than your previous statements. It's a good way of saying "Okay, let's just stop arguing" without making them give ground (which as you saw, doesn't really happen). It's not really about pride, but more on that below.

Personally, I enjoy arguments in some weird way, so even if I'm losing and know it, I'll keep on arguing for the sake of arguing. Pride has a little to do with it, but it's fun to see how far you can go before the other person calls you out for being ridiculous.

Hope that gives a little insight.
 

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Yeah I hate that... when he tries to infer some hidden meaning from what I've said and responds to that instead of what I actually said.
That's Ni, not Si. Si prefers to deal with what is obvious, not with what is hidden. ESTJ has Si, not Ni.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If you want to win the argument, ironically enough appeal to his sense of reasonableness/fairness. Compromise a little, but then say something like "but you HAVE to admit xyz...", xyz being a little less assertive than your previous statements. It's a good way of saying "Okay, let's just stop arguing" without making them give ground (which as you saw, doesn't really happen). It's not really about pride, but more on that below.
Last time I did that, he said "your only intention right now is to argue with me!" lol, as if intentions have any bearing on the truth of a conclusion. But I look back and can tell that he knew I was right. So maybe there is something to this...

That's Ni, not Si. Si prefers to deal with what is obvious, not with what is hidden. ESTJ has Si, not Ni.
Ok, well for some reason he still does it and I can give many examples. Here is one: I asked my 7-year-old brother if a girl in his class was nice, and my dad started yelling and saying that he didn't like me asking "leading questions with agenda attached to them". I could write you a novel giving examples of this, so I'll stop now and hope you get the point.

I'm Ni-dom and I don't do that at all. I adhere to the rules of logic/argumentation and ask for clarification on the implicit premises so I can understand the actual argument and respond to it.
 

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Ok, well for some reason he still does it and I can give many examples. Here is one: I asked my 7-year-old brother if a girl in his class was nice, and my dad started yelling and saying that he didn't like me asking "leading questions with agenda attached to them". I could write you a novel giving examples of this, so I'll stop now and hope you get the point.

I'm Ni-dom and I don't do that at all. I adhere to the rules of logic/argumentation and ask for clarification on the implicit premises so I can understand the actual argument and respond to it.
And the reason of why you think the opposite of "adhering to the rules of logic/argumentation and ask for clarification on the implicit premises so I can understand the actual argument and respond to it" leads to Si-dom is....?
 
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