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How to win your argument against "ISTJ Dad" and "ISFJ Mom" if you're an ENFP?

How to win your argument against "ISTJ Dad" and "ISFJ Mom" if you're an ENFP?

that is a totally hard task... I don't know how to tell them I'm a grown up
you know ENFP people are just extremely happy and very chill.. right? so they just think I always act nonsense or something...

any good advices?
and I'm really confuse how I get the "ENFP" pattern when both Mom and dad are "ISxx"

Thanksss...
Vivian
 

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My Dad's ISFJ and my mums ESFJ .. so it's definitely challenging!

I'm fine with my Dad, no problems, but constanly clash with my Mom.
Over the years I've learned that there's no point trying to have an argument with Mom as she always has to win. It drives me insane, but it comes down to the fact that with the SJ's they're very much concrete thinkers, so very much see things in black and white and as they are currently, rather than having the desire to collect more information or have the foresight.

I still struggle with my feelings of their closemindedness, but I think both them AND ENFP's can be to the opposite extremes. Just keep reading up in this forum and books about your personality and theirs, it'll help I promise :wink:
 

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Come to this battle prepared. We are good at this.
I don't think my xSFJ mom likes reason at all. She is also an incredibly unhealthy 2. Her reasoning makes me go like this >> :confused: Because there is no reasoning in her world. It just "is" in her world.

And her perspective is the only one she will see. I get exhausted validating her perspective and seeing things from her perspective when she will never try to see from mine. At best, all I can do is help her to come up with her own conclusion and make her feel like it was what she was thinking all along.

So I can offer no advice. Because I'm at the point when my mom talks or nags, I envision how I will feel when she is lying in her coffin. While she is standing there in the present moment trying to power trip, guilt induce, or spew close-minded nonsense, I go inside my mind with that future vision and think "Damn I'm going to really miss her some day." This is how I survive with most of my family.

Arguments are pointless with my mom. She is never going to change. I can't really teach her that it's wrong to be racist or get her to understand that her martyrdom is controlling and abusive. I've been trying to do that for years. Now, I walk away and try not to indulge in conversations. But I still need to maintain my boundaries as an adult, and that's where clashes can start.

As far as the OP, I wouldn't bother trying to prove them wrong. It won't work and you can get some serious drama placed on you. But I do think you are going to have to validate yourself over and over for being who you are instead of being dependent on their approval. You take pride on being your own unique person. They may value you being compliant with structure. They can't change who you are and make you what you are not. You know that and hold it inside. Keep focusing on how strong you are, and how well you can hold your head up in the face of adversity.

You can't win. Let it go. At some point we all have to accept our parents for who they are.
 

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Arguments are pointless with my mom. She is never going to change.
I agree. My mom and sister are ESFJs so while a bit more emotional they are from the SJ subtype. Yes, they see a world where most rules are good rules and the idea of rules as a whole are sheer brilliance. As an ENFP I'm really independent and try defy or destroy rules I think arn't fair or hurt people. Unfortunately, they don't see it that way. If they believe in a rule, that rule is pretty much law.

My mom's pretty religious in a strict sense. Even as an adult she'd try to get after me for drinking or smoking my Cubans or whatever else. We had some big fights which ended in the "As long as you keep your high GPA, and keep succeeding in your jobs and career and I don't have to pick you up from the cops or in a coffin what you do can be tolerated" line.

That's worked out well, as if I'd stop my penchant for the occasional party and my love of liquor because someone said so.
 

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Good luck. That's all I have to say.

My ESFJ Sistercan't get a thing past my ISTJ Dad. I avoid arguing with my Dad because I always win the reasoning portion of the argument and he runs off upset. He'll throw tantrums and use the "I'm your father" card. At this point however, he's come to accept that I have a good reason for anything I do. He will give advice if it is something he knows he's more experienced than me at but other than that, it has taken a very long time for him to trust my judgement.

Si dominants can be really stubborn and it doesn't matter what logic you present unless they decide beforehand that they'll trust you. For the ISTJ Dad though, target the emotional argument and if you can win him over, he'll have an easier time with your ISFJ Mom. You've got the "Daddy's little girl" card. My INFP sister can get away with murder.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for all your comments everybody... That really help me a lot :):laughing:
 

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I have an ISTJ dad and an ISFJ mom too!
My dad and I normally got along great...most of the time. My mom and I *could* get along well, but she has a lot of emotional problems so it was hard to know how to deal with her since she wasn't always consistant.

Basically though I find that well thought out reasons (followed by actions to back them up) are the most powerful arguments towards any cause you may have. The worst thing you can do is show too much emotion, it seems to make them feel you are proving their point for them.
 

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Well my dad is an ISTJ and the only advice i can think of now is to display information on what you are arguing for. Like if you want something maybe you can show him some reveiws lol or how cool the product is but other than that i dont know what to tell you haha, usually its a losing battle on my part.
 

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ISxJs need to feel secure in the domain of their home and family, so based on personal experience I wouldn't advise you to argue, per se. Don't think that just because they are SJ types, they can take what you dish out. Our NP, especially that tertiary Te flaring up without warning, can really hurt Sensors, especially SFs, if we're not careful.

I would advise you to stay your chill self, and try to gently press your issue until you feel you can't go any further without sparking a conflict. If you get there, back down and try again later, at a time when your SJ parent is relaxed, secure, and in a good mood. Don't give up. Ne hates being patient, but that's what we have to be for the more together-seeming people in our lives :3'
 

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My parents are also sensors while I am not sure of my dad's type yet I know my mom is an ESFJ and for me I tend to back my Ne with both Fi and Te when debating so that I can use logic to support how/why this is possible and reasonable, morals and feelings as to why my idea mus be embraced over tradition and then intuition of course to let the possibilties of solving the said argument flow into my mind. Gennerally I win debates with my other Intuitive friends (gennerally not always some are very stubborn and sometimes I am wrong) but these types of people if you say anything to offend them or defy what they have grown accustomed to they freak out and act like all hell is breaking loose. If you understand their angle of thinking adjust your argument so that it makes sense in their reality so that you can work the situation in your favor, it may be hard but not immposible so good luck :wink:
 

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My mom is an ISFJ and we used to fight all the time. In high school it was like this. She would come home and start yelling at us about some random chore we neglected. (Even if we did a bunch of other chores) like leaving a dish in the sink. I would say you need to chill out if you just ask me to do it I will, but I don't want to be yelled at like that about such frivolous stuff. (Perfectly reasonable to me) I would keep pushing that issue and finally she would very sarcastically say "Would you please do XYZ.", and maybe do it for a couple of days, but it was obvious she thought I was a horrible son. lol.

You can definitely see the different personality types playing out there. I wouldn't notice some detail in the environment around me.that needed to be dealt with. She came home saw it and thought it was obvious that I, my brother or sister should have handled it. She would get mad after working all day. I would get offended for not being talked to in a nice enough way and then we just would fight about it.

I understand theory why she was so upset about minor things not being clean and what not, but it still floors me how emotional she got about that crap.
 

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My parents are both STJs, and even with logic on my side the likelihood of success is low. Other perspectives are (in their words) 'bullshit' to them, and if they've already decided you're not going to be able to change their minds no matter how right you are. The ideas they've already accepted are written in stone and completely irrevocable, no matter how anachronistic or unjust. It just devolves into them using any and all power they have over you to coerce the desired behaviour. My ESFJ sister is even worse, since she's beyond all reasoning - even my parents seem to acknowledge this and usually don't bother trying to reason with her.

tldr: For STJs, your best bet is to present a detailed, logical argument and pray they decide to accept it. For SFJs, just hope you won't have anything to argue about in the first place.

(I'm not saying all SJs are this bad, but the ones who have any form of power over you will generally make you wish they didn't.)

"As long as you keep your high GPA, and keep succeeding in your jobs and career and I don't have to pick you up from the cops or in a coffin what you do can be tolerated"
Pretty sure that's their idea of tolerance. I wish I could get that out of mine.
 

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How to win an argument? Well, lets do a practice run. You can try arguing with me here, hahaha......
I'm an ISFJ but not yet a mother.
 

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My mum used to be really strict on us, but I would just refuse to do the things she asked. Bratty? sure. It eventually meant I had freedoms my sisters didn't have because I managed to lower my mums expectations. Now shes pleased if I just do the dishes or walk the dog, I don't have to be perfect at everything.

As for arguements, point out times your mum/dad has made mistakes or were wrong about something. My mum is a nurse and doesn't take my pain seriously, so I like to bring up the time my wisdom teeth came in and caused serious pain for three months- By the time I got to the dentist, the new teeth had done serious damage to their neighbours and chipped into the enamel causing an infection and I had to go on medications to get rid of the infection, then a specialist from another city had to come in to take my teeth out because they were in serious condition. It was so bad that if the tooth was extracted slightly wrong I could have lost function of half my face and the ability to talk. I was lucky I guess, that everything turned out okay. And I have a story I can hold over my mum FOREVER.
 
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