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I tend to take a more cynical view on humanity than I've been led to believe the average INFP does. I think that people are full of willful ignorance and it drives me crazy. As a whole I get really mad at people. I think they get all caught up in their social crap and are just trying to be comfortable and impress eachother and never really look at the world. I think they are mostly mindless sheep.

Individual people I feel sorry for. I want them to be happy, but I wish they would take a real look at the world. I see people moving around in their lives being so serious about the things that don't really matter and it is so heartbreaking. I envy their ability not to see the world, I'm disdainful of their inability to see it. I can clearly see where they see themselves in their lives and I feel protective. My heart breaks for them and for everyone whenever I consider the state of an individual human. They get so caught up in their patterns. They think what they are supposed to think and do what they are supposed to do. They don't realize how much they are hurting themselves and the world.
 

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I tend to take a more cynical view on humanity than I've been led to believe the average INFP does. I think that people are full of willful ignorance and it drives me crazy. As a whole I get really mad at people. I think they get all caught up in their social crap and are just trying to be comfortable and impress eachother and never really look at the world. I think they are mostly mindless sheep.

Individual people I feel sorry for. I want them to be happy, but I wish they would take a real look at the world. I see people moving around in their lives being so serious about the things that don't really matter and it is so heartbreaking. I envy their ability not to see the world, I'm disdainful of their inability to see it. I can clearly see where they see themselves in their lives and I feel protective. My heart breaks for them and for everyone whenever I consider the state of an individual human. They get so caught up in their patterns. They think what they are supposed to think and do what they are supposed to do. They don't realize how much they are hurting themselves and the world.
I think the same about other people. I also think that it's sad that you can easily see that each one of them is unique, yet they are all trying to become a 'perfect person', so they slowly start to change into the image of that 'person', and then they all look the same.

I also think that the media is playing a big role in destroying people's happiness, because first they give you the portrayal of how people should act through movies and shows and stuff, and then they make you buy stuff which will never make you happy, and only fulfill your superficial desires and give you instant gratification. Then they tell you that those things you bought are 'out' and the new models are 'in', and the cycle keeps repeating.

Also, society never cares about nurturing people's abilities, it just wants to produce citizens which will aid the continuation of industrialization. Which means that everybody will become mindless robots in an attempt to build something which will crash down upon them.

I wish I could break everyone out of that cycle :(
 

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I think the same about other people. I also think that it's sad that you can easily see that each one of them is unique, yet they are all trying to become a 'perfect person', so they slowly start to change into the image of that 'person', and then they all look the same.

I also think that the media is playing a big role in destroying people's happiness, because first they give you the portrayal of how people should act through movies and shows and stuff, and then they make you buy stuff which will never make you happy, and only fulfill your superficial desires and give you instant gratification. Then they tell you that those things you bought are 'out' and the new models are 'in', and the cycle keeps repeating.

Also, society never cares about nurturing people's abilities, it just wants to produce citizens which will aid the continuation of industrialization. Which means that everybody will become mindless robots in an attempt to build something which will crash down upon them.

I wish I could break everyone out of that cycle :(
Yeah. I am so with you...

Have you ever read the book (probably not, honestly. It is not popular) "When Ladies go Atheiving" My kindle broke long before I finished it, but it was fascinating. It is about the beginning of industrialization in the united states. It talks a lot about a magazine, the dry good something. Basically the magazine told people how to increase demand for their products. It goes into the lives of women during the industrial revolution and discusses all of the social pressures, domestic duties, and consumerist agenda that they faced. Eventually it gets to the trend of middle-class women from good families with husbands with good jobs shoplifting. It happened a lot. I never made it to that point, but it just highlights how deliberate the consumerist brainwashing is.
 
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I used to be really cynical and I definitely have my moments. Sometimes I lose my faith in humanity. But, then I'll see something or meet someone that will reignite that faith. There seems to be a lot of entitlement these days - people who believe they should have what they want simply because they were raised having it or see people have it in the movies. So many people don't seem to live in reality. Reality isn't TV or the movies. That's silly and I'm shocked to see that there are real live human beings who think that way. Materialism has always been around as have selfishness, racism, vanity, etc. So many older folks seem to believe that "this generation is worse than the last". That's never true. The "bad stuff" is concentrated into a different area in each generation. The "bad stuff" exists in them all and is just as concentrated as the others.

But, there are so many people who aren't shouting from the rooftops about how awesome they are. There are people who are devoting their lives to helping people. There are so many people who care about their fellow man to a point where they would do anything for someone in need. I know that I would help out anyone. My mom would. My husband would. My mom's business partner would give the shirt off her back to anyone who needed it without a second thought. And these are just people that I know personally. Sure, there are people who wouldn't...like my dad. He thinks you should earn whatever it is. So do my FIL and BIL. That doesn't necessarily make them bad people, just different. My FIL at least gives a lot to charity and has given us some incredible gifts that are designed to be incredibly helpful.

So, I guess it's the individuals I see who shape what I see in humanity as a whole. There are many douchebags out there. But, there are many more people who care. And almost everyone has been through some shit. They may not share it with you or anyone else, but 90% of the people in this world have visited the darkness. We all handle it in different ways. While it doesn't make it good or right, sometimes you can't blame someone for not being the person they "should" be.
 

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Yeah. I am so with you...

Have you ever read the book (probably not, honestly. It is not popular) "When Ladies go Atheiving" My kindle broke long before I finished it, but it was fascinating. It is about the beginning of industrialization in the united states. It talks a lot about a magazine, the dry good something. Basically the magazine told people how to increase demand for their products. It goes into the lives of women during the industrial revolution and discusses all of the social pressures, domestic duties, and consumerist agenda that they faced. Eventually it gets to the trend of middle-class women from good families with husbands with good jobs shoplifting. It happened a lot. I never made it to that point, but it just highlights how deliberate the consumerist brainwashing is.
No, I didn't hear about it...it does seem really interesting :)

There's also a lot of videos talking about how consumerism is sort of 'taking over' people, and that tv is brainwashing them...an interesting article that talks about it that I can't not love is this:

The Mad Cult of the World « PARALLAX

And about the video at the end: the guy's name is Charlie Veitch, search for "the love police" on youtube, he's trying to 'awaken' humanity :)

I'm sorry if this went a bit off-topic but I can't control myself when it comes to stuff like this xD
 

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No, I didn't hear about it...it does seem really interesting :)

There's also a lot of videos talking about how consumerism is sort of 'taking over' people, and that tv is brainwashing them...an interesting article that talks about it that I can't not love is this:

The Mad Cult of the World « PARALLAX

I'm sorry if this went a bit off-topic but I can't control myself when it comes to stuff like this xD
Oh, not at all. This is exactly what I was looking for...well...to know if it was just me, but ideally to learn it wasn't.

Just looking at the picture of the cubicles there was enough to depress me. This is the reality of the world. People's lives really truly are spent sitting in boxes for 8 hours a day, and driving two more to get to the boxes. I'm so sad for people who are stuck in it and I never want to be. My dad is trying so hard to get out of it, but he has such a need to stick with it for some reason.
 

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Oh, not at all. This is exactly what I was looking for...well...to know if it was just me, but ideally to learn it wasn't.

Just looking at the picture of the cubicles there was enough to depress me. This is the reality of the world. People's lives really truly are spent sitting in boxes for 8 hours a day, and driving two more to get to the boxes. I'm so sad for people who are stuck in it and I never want to be. My dad is trying so hard to get out of it, but he has such a need to stick with it for some reason.
Okay, great :D

Yes, it's a sad sight...I have promised myself that after I graduate from college and get some experience, I'll open up something private, so that I can be my own boss and escape this madness.
 

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Okay, great :D

Yes, it's a sad sight...I have promised myself that after I graduate from college and get some experience, I'll open up something private, so that I can be my own boss and escape this madness.
That sounds wonderful. What are you going to school for? My family has a vague plan to start up an alternative education school for intelligent socially inept youth. I think I am going to get a degree in experiential education. The goal of the program will be to give the kids the flexibility they need to explore their gifts in an atmosphere where they can also work on their weaknesses without judgement. Also, to give them peers who actually feel like peers. It's going to have a large component of outdoors active hands on learning.

This way we get to play and have fun and freedom and help people who can't really cope with public school but could excel otherwise.
 

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That sounds wonderful. What are you going to school for? My family has a vague plan to start up an alternative education school for intelligent socially inept youth. I think I am going to get a degree in experiential education. The goal of the program will be to give the kids the flexibility they need to explore their gifts in an atmosphere where they can also work on their weaknesses without judgement. Also, to give them peers who actually feel like peers. It's going to have a large component of outdoors active hands on learning.

This way we get to play and have fun and freedom and help people who can't really cope with public school but could excel otherwise.
Wow. That would be an amazing project! If there was such a school when I was young, I would have definitely gone there.

I'm currently a computer engineering major. I know it sound very un-INFP-ish, but actually programming is a form of art :proud: I also play the guitar, and I try my best to use that to build a career as well. So whichever succeeds, I'm happy both ways :tongue:

I really think that people should be free to choose what they want to do for a living, without being afraid of not earning enough money for a decent life. It's a stupid thought by itself to constrict people and make them do something they hate so that they can have a life :sad:
 

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I used to be really cynical and I definitely have my moments. Sometimes I lose my faith in humanity. But, then I'll see something or meet someone that will reignite that faith. There seems to be a lot of entitlement these days - people who believe they should have what they want simply because they were raised having it or see people have it in the movies. So many people don't seem to live in reality. Reality isn't TV or the movies. That's silly and I'm shocked to see that there are real live human beings who think that way. Materialism has always been around as have selfishness, racism, vanity, etc. So many older folks seem to believe that "this generation is worse than the last". That's never true. The "bad stuff" is concentrated into a different area in each generation. The "bad stuff" exists in them all and is just as concentrated as the others.

But, there are so many people who aren't shouting from the rooftops about how awesome they are. There are people who are devoting their lives to helping people. There are so many people who care about their fellow man to a point where they would do anything for someone in need. I know that I would help out anyone. My mom would. My husband would. My mom's business partner would give the shirt off her back to anyone who needed it without a second thought. And these are just people that I know personally. Sure, there are people who wouldn't...like my dad. He thinks you should earn whatever it is. So do my FIL and BIL. That doesn't necessarily make them bad people, just different. My FIL at least gives a lot to charity and has given us some incredible gifts that are designed to be incredibly helpful.

So, I guess it's the individuals I see who shape what I see in humanity as a whole. There are many douchebags out there. But, there are many more people who care. And almost everyone has been through some shit. They may not share it with you or anyone else, but 90% of the people in this world have visited the darkness. We all handle it in different ways. While it doesn't make it good or right, sometimes you can't blame someone for not being the person they "should" be.
It's necessary to remember to look at the individual people and recognize when someone is good. I have a hard time applying that to the whole, but it is good to know that they really are out there. I know people all have their own lives that have led them to the attitude they have today. I even believe that most people mean well, I just wish they were not so blind.

I'm just starting to dip my toes into philosophy. We are reading Plato's "on knowledge" We went over the idea of the good in class. Good illuminates truth, was basically the point, to condense the metaphor. The point we came to is that there are different degrees of good and truth. The people live in their very narrow world, and they do what is good in that world, but if you were to stretch the good, and try to do what is good for everyone you are forced to live in a different reality.
 

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Wow. That would be an amazing project! If there was such a school when I was young, I would have definitely gone there.

I'm currently a computer engineering major. I know it sound very un-INFP-ish, but actually programming is a form of art :proud: I also play the guitar, and I try my best to use that to build a career as well. So whichever succeeds, I'm happy both ways :tongue:

I really think that people should be free to choose what they want to do for a living, without being afraid of not earning enough money for a decent life. It's a stupid thought by itself to constrict people and make them do something they hate so that they can have a life :sad:
People are slaves to the system. It's so weird, really. It's not like any person is making this happen. Even the people in advertising, marketing, bankers, whatever, they are doing what they know how to and have to to survive in this system.

So many people I know would have benefited from such a school. Hopefully more of them will arise.

I wish I had the patience for programming. What do you make? My ex was a programmer but he mostly did something really complicated that ran behind the scenes of a game and then moved on to a new project before the game was made. Programming is definitely one of those flexible jobs.
 

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humanity is ridiculously diverse and difficult to pin down in any easy way. i tend to get ruffled when people try to claim that humanity is this or that way, as there are a multitude of examples that oppose such claims.

humanity is remarkable and mundane all at once. we are somewhat tragic. we have considerable potential which is untapped.

but why our potential may be untapped is extremely complex, and sometimes not black-and-white bad.
 

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humanity is ridiculously diverse and difficult to pin down in any easy way. i tend to get ruffled when people try to claim that humanity is this or that way, as there are a multitude of examples that oppose such claims.

humanity is remarkable and mundane all at once. we are somewhat tragic. we have considerable potential which is untapped.

but why our potential may be untapped is extremely complex, and sometimes not black-and-white bad.
Would you care to elaborate, particularly on untapped potential?

I love your avatar.
 
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Would you care to elaborate, particularly on untapped potential?
ooh, well... i dont think i have anything that earth-shattering to say...

part of the strength of humanity is our diversity - it's a useful thing, as the failings of one can potentially be supported by the strengths of another. simultaneously, our diversity makes it difficult to make concerted efforts towards some really fantastic achievements... we could have a society which takes care of and enriches a vast amount of the population, if not every member, if we moulded our society for this. or so i believe. but we dont, and there are many reasons for that... some relatively black and white, some not.

our diversity is part of that, a double-edged sword, because... really, we dont KNOW what is "good" and desirable, properly speaking. people develop many ideas about what makes a good society, and naturally not everyone agrees... in order to make great societies, you need to have a large amount of collective efforts. our societies do, indeed, have largescale collective efforts, and achieve some impressive things that we could never do alone, or in tiny groups. but in order to get people to act towards a certain goal, you need to convince or force them to do so...

both convincing and forcing can have positive and negative aspects - convincing could be relatively good, in that you genuinely win someone over with positive arguments or by showing through evidence or example the benefit of a particular way of thinking/doing things... on the other hand, it could involve just tricking someone, mentally manipulating someone. force is quite obvious in its negative aspect (the mere word has negative implications), but few would view it as especially negative when it comes to defending minorities, fostering equality, eliminating oppression.

subsequently, people need to be convinced, or forced, towards particular endevours... but what that endevour might be can change radically depending on whomever manages to get into a seat of power - whether that "seat of power" is extremely, obviously *singularly* authoritarian and dictatorial, or diffuse and more collectively democratic. everyone has an idea about how to make society "better," but a paradise to one might be an abomination to another. and this isnt even counting in simple cynical attempts by certain individuals who lack strong ideological or philosophical motivations to mould society in a particular way, and just do so in order to achieve personal wealth or power (and this, most certainly, does feature strongly in human history).

to make things even more muddled, people are generally products of their societies. societies change - sometimes drastically - but various generations often dont realize this, and fool themselves into thinking that humanity is precisely how their particular society is... or, perhaps more to the point, how their particular society *thinks* the people in their society are. because people - sometimes quite understandably - fail to realize that the way their society percieves humans to be is not the whole picture, they inherently tend to limit themselves in their attempts to understand humanity and to achieve a new society. one simple but potent example are women - womenkind, who were oft-viewed by mainstream, patriarchical societies as inferior in nearly every way, subservient, possibly even sub-human... to most of the people throughout a huge part of history, the idea that women may be politically and economically equal to men would've been not only an abomination, but simply impossible to conceive.

yet here we are today... one of the strongest institutions of many human societies, rarely questioned (at least by men, particularly powerful men), has become largely (though not completely) undermined, and only so shortly ago. most of the men and women who post on this forum wouldnt even take for granted the concept of equality of the sexes.

human potential. but it's so difficult to see it. and sometimes with good reason - because, in order to do the great things in our society, we *do* need some degree of collective action, and this *does* necessitate bending individual will at least partly to support the collectivity, or else nothing will happen (including, for that matter, women's emancipation).

... i really hope this wasnt as rambly as i kind of fear it was :frustrating:

(edit - fiddlehonks! i made WAY longer of a reply than i realized or intended!)


I love your avatar.
oh, ah, thanks :proud:
 

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ooh, well... i dont think i have anything that earth-shattering to say...

part of the strength of humanity is our diversity - it's a useful thing, as the failings of one can potentially be supported by the strengths of another. simultaneously, our diversity makes it difficult to make concerted efforts towards some really fantastic achievements... we could have a society which takes care of and enriches a vast amount of the population, if not every member, if we moulded our society for this. or so i believe. but we dont, and there are many reasons for that... some relatively black and white, some not.

our diversity is part of that, a double-edged sword, because... really, we dont KNOW what is "good" and desirable, properly speaking. people develop many ideas about what makes a good society, and naturally not everyone agrees... in order to make great societies, you need to have a large amount of collective efforts. our societies do, indeed, have largescale collective efforts, and achieve some impressive things that we could never do alone, or in tiny groups. but in order to get people to act towards a certain goal, you need to convince or force them to do so...

both convincing and forcing can have positive and negative aspects - convincing could be relatively good, in that you genuinely win someone over with positive arguments or by showing through evidence or example the benefit of a particular way of thinking/doing things... on the other hand, it could involve just tricking someone, mentally manipulating someone. force is quite obvious in its negative aspect (the mere word has negative implications), but few would view it as especially negative when it comes to defending minorities, fostering equality, eliminating oppression.

subsequently, people need to be convinced, or forced, towards particular endevours... but what that endevour might be can change radically depending on whomever manages to get into a seat of power - whether that "seat of power" is extremely, obviously *singularly* authoritarian and dictatorial, or diffuse and more collectively democratic. everyone has an idea about how to make society "better," but a paradise to one might be an abomination to another. and this isnt even counting in simple cynical attempts by certain individuals who lack strong ideological or philosophical motivations to mould society in a particular way, and just do so in order to achieve personal wealth or power (and this, most certainly, does feature strongly in human history).

to make things even more muddled, people are generally products of their societies. societies change - sometimes drastically - but various generations often dont realize this, and fool themselves into thinking that humanity is precisely how their particular society is... or, perhaps more to the point, how their particular society *thinks* the people in their society are. because people - sometimes quite understandably - fail to realize that the way their society percieves humans to be is not the whole picture, they inherently tend to limit themselves in their attempts to understand humanity and to achieve a new society. one simple but potent example are women - womenkind, who were oft-viewed by mainstream, patriarchical societies as inferior in nearly every way, subservient, possibly even sub-human... to most of the people throughout a huge part of history, the idea that women may be politically and economically equal to men would've been not only an abomination, but simply impossible to conceive.

yet here we are today... one of the strongest institutions of many human societies, rarely questioned (at least by men, particularly powerful men), has become largely (though not completely) undermined, and only so shortly ago. most of the men and women who post on this forum wouldnt even take for granted the concept of equality of the sexes.

human potential. but it's so difficult to see it. and sometimes with good reason - because, in order to do the great things in our society, we *do* need some degree of collective action, and this *does* necessitate bending individual will at least partly to support the collectivity, or else nothing will happen (including, for that matter, women's emancipation).

... i really hope this wasnt as rambly as i kind of fear it was :frustrating:

(edit - fiddlehonks! i made WAY longer of a reply than i realized or intended!)




oh, ah, thanks :proud:
No, not rambly. You make good points.

when you said it last time I realized my error, but I realize it again with this post. When I say humanity I think I really can only mean the people I come into contact with in this society. I've no basis to judge the others. Also, even though I feel like I look outside of the societal norms I am still a product of this society and I really truly cannot estrange myself from that. It's discouraging to realize my view of humanity is really only my view of this society as a piece of it.

I'm falling alseep. Thanks for sharing. The whole thing really was interesting, but I'm too tired to comment further
 
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humanity is ridiculously diverse and difficult to pin down in any easy way. i tend to get ruffled when people try to claim that humanity is this or that way, as there are a multitude of examples that oppose such claims.

humanity is remarkable and mundane all at once. we are somewhat tragic. we have considerable potential which is untapped.

but why our potential may be untapped is extremely complex, and sometimes not black-and-white bad.
Wow! You put it perfectly.

I think there tend to be two different attitudes towards humanity--
1. People are mindless, cruel, ignorant and generally hopeless
2. People are kind and extraordinary

I tend to lean towards the latter belief, but theory is different than practice. I don't think wanting to see people as good actually makes me treat others any better in ordinary social interactions. Anyway, I think you are completely right. People are both extraordinary and hopeless. We have created amazing things by destroying other amazing things. We have the potential to be kind and to be cruel. I think people as individuals are usually more or less harmless in the grand scheme of things, but in groups we can be very powerful and very dangerous.
 

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People are slaves to the system. It's so weird, really. It's not like any person is making this happen. Even the people in advertising, marketing, bankers, whatever, they are doing what they know how to and have to to survive in this system.

So many people I know would have benefited from such a school. Hopefully more of them will arise.

I wish I had the patience for programming. What do you make? My ex was a programmer but he mostly did something really complicated that ran behind the scenes of a game and then moved on to a new project before the game was made. Programming is definitely one of those flexible jobs.
I'm still in my second year, so all I know how to do is to make a teeny tiny program. xD
 
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