[lirulin]

from the perspective of one who gets these jokes, usually when people joke with each other like that it's a matter of trust. As in, you are such good friends that you know you don't need to be suspicious of each other's motives or get paranoid about their so-called "real" meaning or "implications" and then attack them with accusations about what they "truly" meant ---- because you actually know and trust and aren't prone to convicting a friend on so subjective/imaginary a basis. Within that, there is a range of what different people consider appropriate. But the main point is that these remarks are not hurtful to people who get it, not intended to be hurtful & usually do not express what one truly feels - often the opposite, as in when the joke is that something is so patently untrue that saying this negative & blatantly false thing is hilarious to the parties involved since the idea of it being true is, to them, ridiculous -- not actually plausible. Unfortunately, Ne is really good at ignoring context & thinks almost everything is plausible, so some people get completely confused - XNFPs are particularly prone to this. It's usually not a good tack to take with them.
fwiw

(But yes, passive-aggressive digs that people try to pass off as humour also exist)

 

[lirulin]

i think your "oh" was more of a general "oh" of surprise than anything else, but i totally get that.

i disagree with irulin. i know INTJs are particularly prone to this where they make a joke which sounds demeaning and get all confused when others get offended, but that's because they are being insulting, even if they are being "sarcastic". i've literally known an INTJ friend who would spout of racist jokes, and because they were being sarcastic and playing on the ignorance OF racism, and using the irony of NOT seeing it that way, it's ok to them. the fact of the matter is they made a racist joke, and whilst it's ok if it's funny PURELY on the merit of it's irony, it's not ok if they're repeated and done without very good context for irony. i'm sorry it's not. that's just an example, and INTJs do this about everything- if someone's fat they make fat jokes. obviously the idea is to come back at them so it's "good natured" but i think it's "unnecessary" and "irritating".

and then yeah i also agree that you get the passive aggresive comments which are just pathetic and insecure.

INTJs and ENFPS in this combination are bad. "funny PURELY on the merit of it's irony" is essentially the whole point with us. Plus we assume it IS very good context: friends = people who don't hurt each other is the base assumption so anything interpretation we think is reasonable has to incorporate it. Or we think that in our actions it is so obvious that we are not racist/sexist/whatever that to take the joke the wrong way means you doubt that, which can be unexpected/insulting/etc. INTJs take trust & understanding - knowing who a person is - really seriously and the ability to push it verbally & be understood is almost interpreted as proof of friendship. Whereas to ENFPs the basic, obvious part is the idea that it could cause hurt, the blatantly obvious part to the INTJs is the perspective, the context that should neutralise that hurt, eliminate the insult. It is there, we see it - not everyone else will see it or or treat it as relevant though.

The problem is people usually tell us off by claiming what we "really" meant, or ascribing intentionality on our part re their emotional reaction - the reaction we did not intend or suspect. The reaction that is really - to our mind - the fault of your misperceptions/mistrust. Whereas, if someone just says "it's a sensitive topic - don't joke about xyz with me" it's much easier to back off. There are still the "but you should learn to deal with it!" ones, but they're usually being immature -- that kind of pushy is uncalled for. Obviously many of you will not share this mindset and there is no problem with that - but it helps to know where people are coming from in this. If you look like you are only hurt by this because you do not understand, there is much less incentive for the other to change their actions - they will instead expect you to change, to learn to understand. And so you're both expecting each other to change and it doesn't get anywhere... there can be a conversation and solution though, if it is dealt with properly.

 

[lirulin]

^ If they've done it before, then it seems normal to be suspicious - even I might be, though I tend not to notice insults & would never pick up on OH. Wouldn't occur to me. As much as it is sometimes paranoia, ENFPs are better at recognising subtle threats where INTJs don't bother thinking about it & we can get burnt by that.

But I have learnt to be far more cautious around my ENFP friends than with others because they don't want to deal with some of the things I can say and I don't want to deal with doubt that seems to express a threat to the friendship. We'd both have to stop&think&recalibrate every time. It seems an unnecessary hassle. But when I do slip up I can be totally anal-retentive about ensuring they know what I actually meant before I promise to avoid, if I can remember, such statements in future. Like, really anal-retentive.

I find my worst instances are with ENTP actually - they dish it out, seem like they can take it so I'm feeling all safe and then wham! - Ne in overdrive. They really can't take it a lot of the time but there is never any warning.

 

[lirulin]

It's not a misconception. It is a perspective.
And it IS the point - to us. You can have a different priority that is just as valid without it negating or invalidating ours. You try to claim only one perspective is valid and you will get nowhere with INTJs. There are millions of viable perspectives to everything.

INTJs think they have already proven it by actions, by being a friend (what GoGo called the safety net of friendship), so to add gushy phrasing is not only redundant, but distasteful & can even look expressive of doubt. Which is why we ourselves usually can put up with all kinds of bullshit from people so long as they are friends without even considering it a problem. The point in everything is the intention. Also, when INTJs say "hello" it is laced with irony half the time. The irony is there. Just because you do not see it nor care for it does not make it nonexistant. This is how we talk and we understand our intentions and it works in many contexts with others who understand too.

There is a difference between disliking something and pronouncing it wrong. These jokes are generally not a good tactic to take with ENFPs & a few other types, as they are liable to misinterpret it and even the few that don't often dislike it - just as gushing and hugs and gossip and clinginess are all bad tactics to take with INTJs. But what makes them bad tactics is the target's preferences - none are inherently bad. Anyone of course has a right to ask people not to treat them in a way that hurts them - but to misunderstand or dismiss someone else's perspective as irrelevant is not a kind thing to do either, and, most of all, it is not terribly functional when negotiating such a request.