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We think I’m a 7 ... definitely sx variant. I always want my 3 mom to just be real, be herself and know she is loved in that real mess and honesty. My whole life this has not really worked and sometimes she feels very threatened. So especially if she is triggered and acting badly, hurting me, and I come and say something like “Well, it makes sense what you’re feeling x because of y and I feel hurt too because of z but we love each other, just need to understand where we both are hurt.”

I think this approach is so kind and is the way I’d like to be approached. If she ever approached me like this, I would feel so relieved. To my mom this approach is a threat. She will say something like “You just keep hitting me and hitting me. You’re attacking me! Get out of here! You’re not an angel! So many people say you’re hard to work with.” Or whatever it is. I’ve always felt like I am trying to help a fox out of a trap and they are snarling at me and scratching and biting and if it’s too much I might have to back away.

I have learned that my approach is not seen as kind. This last time with this, it got so bad that things have not really recovered since. First of all instead of agreeing that no matter what we do love each other and that we can work through it, she didn’t agree with that and hurtled insults. She apologized the next day, but she didn’t send me a birthday present and she always sends me a birthday present. She then felt bad and sent me one late.

I just want her to not feel so threatened and I know we all can trigger people’s fears even if we have no intension of it. I know that somehow my love for her in her worst moments are somehow maybe the worst thing it seems like.... I could tell she thought I was an absolute monster. I don’t think her fear here was made up to hurt me. It was like the fox caught in the trap, thinking I was going to kill her.

Can anyone relate and help me out on this? My mom is 76 and I’m 44... I want this to heal. I dearly love my mom. She is an amazing person, but there is something very wrong about how all of this goes down.
 

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We think I’m a 7 ... definitely sx variant. I always want my 3 mom to just be real, be herself and know she is loved in that real mess and honesty. My whole life this has not really worked and sometimes she feels very threatened. So especially if she is triggered and acting badly, hurting me, and I come and say something like “Well, it makes sense what you’re feeling x because of y and I feel hurt too because of z but we love each other, just need to understand where we both are hurt.”

I think this approach is so kind and is the way I’d like to be approached. If she ever approached me like this, I would feel so relieved. To my mom this approach is a threat. She will say something like “You just keep hitting me and hitting me. You’re attacking me! Get out of here! You’re not an angel! So many people say you’re hard to work with.” Or whatever it is. I’ve always felt like I am trying to help a fox out of a trap and they are snarling at me and scratching and biting and if it’s too much I might have to back away.

I have learned that my approach is not seen as kind. This last time with this, it got so bad that things have not really recovered since. First of all instead of agreeing that no matter what we do love each other and that we can work through it, she didn’t agree with that and hurtled insults. She apologized the next day, but she didn’t send me a birthday present and she always sends me a birthday present. She then felt bad and sent me one late.

I just want her to not feel so threatened and I know we all can trigger people’s fears even if we have no intension of it. I know that somehow my love for her in her worst moments are somehow maybe the worst thing it seems like.... I could tell she thought I was an absolute monster. I don’t think her fear here was made up to hurt me. It was like the fox caught in the trap, thinking I was going to kill her.

Can anyone relate and help me out on this? My mom is 76 and I’m 44... I want this to heal. I dearly love my mom. She is an amazing person, but there is something very wrong about how all of this goes down.
Think of her as an old person who is elder than you and who has taken care of you.
Don't think of her as your mom.

You know what happens is: When we attach these words --- "mom, child, dad, sister, etc..."
When we attach such words, then we don't act wisely.
I know she is your mom, but what does being a mom means? Afterall, she is an elder lady than you. That's the reality. An elder lady who has loved you unconditionally and cared for you.

Listen:
What happens is, sometimes these elder people hurt their kids in the name of love.
Because afterall, mom has got a license of hurting, because it is known that she loves unconditionally. Hence, she can hurt you. Its like a licence they get in the name of relations.

So, think of her as a seperate elder lady who loved you unconditionally. Don't keep words like "mom, child" in your mind.
Think of her like that and then you will know what is right/wrong in the situation.
 

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most interactions with family involve age regression. . . even if it only relates to their perception of you.

For many, you're forever stuck being a teenager with your parents.

so, when they're throwing a tantrum and you're the one acting mature... I'd also have to wonder if she has unresolved trauma in her past. . . particularly within her personal relationships - emotional abuse by a spouse or potentially other issues in her past.. as to whether she sees it as a kind of gaslighting as if you're attempting to make them look crazy by acting calmly or they do see it as threatening in the way of you taking over her role as parent.

the former is a common theme among women of her generation and her acting out may be the only coping/defense mechanism she has in her skillset, particularly when it comes to the people closest to her.

while the latter is just standard of family dynamics. . . to which the consequences of the parent lashing out may only result in feelings of guilt or shame... which generally most people try to avoid feeling.

fact is you're too close to the situation and person, so you can't resolve the issue in the moment. . . and outside of the moment, it's likely very difficult to find the right time to try to discuss these issues. which ultimately having that discussion will make you feel better and she might react positively but generally, things go back to as is.. when another fight comes up.

I'd wager it would likely be easier to get her to ask her gp for medication than it would be to get her to see a therapist or join a support group... have an outlet where she feels safe to express her worries while also receiving a hefty amount of personal attention.

you on the other hand, can try to set healthy boundaries but more than likely have to come to accept the relationship as is. . . you might have an easier time defusing situations with humour or a hug than actually addressing the elephant in the room.
 

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We think I’m a 7 ... definitely sx variant. I always want my 3 mom to just be real, be herself and know she is loved in that real mess and honesty. My whole life this has not really worked and sometimes she feels very threatened. So especially if she is triggered and acting badly, hurting me, and I come and say something like “Well, it makes sense what you’re feeling x because of y and I feel hurt too because of z but we love each other, just need to understand where we both are hurt.”

I think this approach is so kind and is the way I’d like to be approached. If she ever approached me like this, I would feel so relieved. To my mom this approach is a threat. She will say something like “You just keep hitting me and hitting me. You’re attacking me! Get out of here! You’re not an angel! So many people say you’re hard to work with.” Or whatever it is. I’ve always felt like I am trying to help a fox out of a trap and they are snarling at me and scratching and biting and if it’s too much I might have to back away.

I have learned that my approach is not seen as kind. This last time with this, it got so bad that things have not really recovered since. First of all instead of agreeing that no matter what we do love each other and that we can work through it, she didn’t agree with that and hurtled insults. She apologized the next day, but she didn’t send me a birthday present and she always sends me a birthday present. She then felt bad and sent me one late.

I just want her to not feel so threatened and I know we all can trigger people’s fears even if we have no intension of it. I know that somehow my love for her in her worst moments are somehow maybe the worst thing it seems like.... I could tell she thought I was an absolute monster. I don’t think her fear here was made up to hurt me. It was like the fox caught in the trap, thinking I was going to kill her.

Can anyone relate and help me out on this? My mom is 76 and I’m 44... I want this to heal. I dearly love my mom. She is an amazing person, but there is something very wrong about how all of this goes down.
What a rough situation.
It must be painfully troublesome for you to observe her leading with this unhealthy/detrimental approach.
If only things could be easier. This sounds so frustrating, draining, and unproductive.
I don't condone this kind of behavior--but also, I can understand why a 3 (particularly a "feeler" 3)--
would sort of "act out" when approached with issues, specifically those with an emotional component.
3s have (fortunately or unfortunately) a heightened sensitivity to failure/vulnerability; drawing those failures or vulnerabilities to light
(i.e. shame), can be distressing to varying degrees (depending upon wholeness and maturity of the 3 in question).
They lead with emotion (i.e. "heart" within the Enneagram triad), but simultaneously repress it.
They don't want you to see them "naked". That said, it's not an excuse--something she clearly needs to work on.
Perhaps procuring some space is the best route for the moment, then reapproaching when things have calmed down.
 

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Something I learned about my mom as I got older is that she's a very fragile and vulnerable person. I can't rely on her to be emotionally strong and to do the "mature" thing even relative to me, who is decades younger. It's not because she doesn't want to or doesn't try but because she's experienced too much pain in her life and the wounds didn't heal properly. When we're having a disagreement, I learned the best thing is to back off before she reaches her breaking point or she'll lose control and then feel terrible after. There are certain things she can't handle coming from me and the kind thing is not to say them, no matter how much I'd like an "ideal" mother-daughter relationship where I can tell her anything and everything and we could work through it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
What a rough situation.
It must be painfully troublesome for you to observe her leading with this unhealthy/detrimental approach.
If only things could be easier. This sounds so frustrating, draining, and unproductive.
I don't condone this kind of behavior--but also, I can understand why a 3 (particularly a "feeler" 3)--
would sort of "act out" when approached with issues, specifically those with an emotional component.
3s have (fortunately or unfortunately) a heightened sensitivity to failure/vulnerability; drawing those failures or vulnerabilities to light
(i.e. shame), can be distressing to varying degrees (depending upon wholeness and maturity of the 3 in question).
They lead with emotion (i.e. "heart" within the Enneagram triad), but simultaneously repress it.
They don't want you to see them "naked". That said, it's not an excuse--something she clearly needs to work on.
Perhaps procuring some space is the best route for the moment, then reapproaching when things have calmed down.
She has never been in good health levels and really I think rarely goes into average health levels.

I am worried that she might have ruined her own perception of her image of herself as my mom this last time. I wonder what that would do... or if she has to demonize me in order to justify.... I don't know. I hope not. She apologized for the late present and I know in her mind it represented a lot. Represented a lot that she hadn't put it together in the first place, and represented a lot when she decided to put it together late. My poor mom! I don't want her feeling like this about herself or about our relationship. How do I deal with her image-thing?
And I must be the worst, really... because I don't care a bit about that image thing. I just want her to let me love her and vice-versa and be happy. But it SO doesn't work that way, I don't think! Or it must not?
 
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She has never been in good health levels and really I think rarely goes into average health levels.

I am worried that she might have ruined her own perception of her image of herself as my mom this last time. I wonder what that would do... or if she has to demonize me in order to justify.... I don't know. I hope not. She apologized for the late present and I know in her mind it represented a lot. Represented a lot that she hadn't put it together in the first place, and represented a lot when she decided to put it together late. My poor mom! I don't want her feeling like this about herself or about our relationship. How do I deal with her image-thing?
And I must be the worst, really... because I don't care a bit about that image thing. I just want her to let me love her and vice-versa and be happy. But it SO doesn't work that way, I don't think! Or it must not?
:/ Aww...
Have you attempted allowing her some space to readjust?
Sometimes relaxing the approach, timing, or environment helps... if she's Fi-Te/Te-Fi,
placing deliberate pressure on Te (i.e. "[Insert issue] is what I see... I think this is a problem. I don't want this to go on.
How can we work together to resolve this?") is also an option.
Having her emotions analyzed or escalated more might not aid the situation, but encouraging some form of action may.
Just a thought.
 

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How do I deal with her image-thing?
Is she sociable? Does she have friends? Get out often enough? I know it's difficult in these times.. but having more social outlets can improve her overall mental health while also reducing her stress and anxiety in regards to your relationship - which, if she has few other outlets except for family, may be putting too much strain on her in the role of a family matriarch... feeling as if she has to be in control all the time and coming off a bit narcissistic.

If she's unable to get out much, then you can try introducing concepts of mindfulness to her.. tai chi is a great option as it promotes low impact and slow exercises she can do. although if she has mobility issues, you might look into more adaptive exercises from a chair.





 
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(I seem to have a similar relationship with my mom, so I might project a bit in this post and it might make my response less relevant to your situation.)

Anytime I try to communicate deeply with my mom about a problem we/I am having, she totally shuts down. Her MO is to “tune out” the moment she hears something she perceives to be an attack—even if it isn’t an attack. It’s so bad that I made the mistake of bringing up the rift between us a few months ago to see if we could bridge it, and I definitely won’t be doing that again!

If you don’t mind me asking, what is her MBTI type? Mine is an ISFJ. We have an extremely strong parent-child dynamic, and she becomes incredibly prideful and defensive the moment she feels I am going above her head on an intellectual/emotional level so, my entire relationship with her is built on shallow small-talk which is unfulfilling to me, but it’s that or nothing at all.


I think that sometimes it is particularly difficult for NF’s when they try to connect with someone on a deeper, emotional level, and are unable to because the other party is not receptive. I think that sometimes this can happen with other types because it leads to confusion. (Why are we talking about this? Where is this coming from? Do you have a problem with me? I don’t understand what you’re trying to get me to realize and this confusion is making me feel frustrated/angry/defensive.)

I’ve noticed that—for most people—once a relationship dynamic has been established, it becomes nearly impossible to change. Unfortunately, I think parents have a difficult time reconciling the change between their ten year old child with their now-adult one.

My mom also feels the need to be perfect and cannot accept when someone thinks she is less than this so if I come to her with something that challenges her carefully crafted “perfect” image, we have a huge problem.

I applaud your efforts to keep trying where I have given up. Has it always been this way between you and your mom or has something in the past happened to produce tension and make her less receptive to “hearing you out”?

(Sorry I didn’t address the enneagram aspect of your post. It is very new to me and I am still learning about it! I did find this though. I know it points to a romantic pairing, but I wondered if you could pick similarities out of it for your relationship with your mom.)

 

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We think I’m a 7 ... definitely sx variant. I always want my 3 mom to just be real, be herself and know she is loved in that real mess and honesty. My whole life this has not really worked and sometimes she feels very threatened. So especially if she is triggered and acting badly, hurting me, and I come and say something like “Well, it makes sense what you’re feeling x because of y and I feel hurt too because of z but we love each other, just need to understand where we both are hurt.”

I think this approach is so kind and is the way I’d like to be approached. If she ever approached me like this, I would feel so relieved. To my mom this approach is a threat. She will say something like “You just keep hitting me and hitting me. You’re attacking me! Get out of here! You’re not an angel! So many people say you’re hard to work with.” Or whatever it is. I’ve always felt like I am trying to help a fox out of a trap and they are snarling at me and scratching and biting and if it’s too much I might have to back away.

I have learned that my approach is not seen as kind. This last time with this, it got so bad that things have not really recovered since. First of all instead of agreeing that no matter what we do love each other and that we can work through it, she didn’t agree with that and hurtled insults. She apologized the next day, but she didn’t send me a birthday present and she always sends me a birthday present. She then felt bad and sent me one late.

I just want her to not feel so threatened and I know we all can trigger people’s fears even if we have no intension of it. I know that somehow my love for her in her worst moments are somehow maybe the worst thing it seems like.... I could tell she thought I was an absolute monster. I don’t think her fear here was made up to hurt me. It was like the fox caught in the trap, thinking I was going to kill her.

Can anyone relate and help me out on this? My mom is 76 and I’m 44... I want this to heal. I dearly love my mom. She is an amazing person, but there is something very wrong about how all of this goes down.
Possibly, she has felt controlled in her past by someone who was less than kind, and when you try to fix the situation with logic, she sees it as you trying to control her and to "fix her" against her will. The fact that she is reacting so strongly, even to the point of almost removing your daughtership shows how strongly she will fight to be herself. She has possibly lost trust that people who are close to her won't hurt her. Even though logically, your mind has a great solution to the problems between you and her, that is a threat to her someway. Therefore, the best thing you can do is to stop trying to straighten out the situation or her. She would feel less threatened if you would just hug her, and say "I love you mom, what can I help you with today?"
 

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We think I’m a 7 ... definitely sx variant. I always want my 3 mom to just be real, be herself and know she is loved in that real mess and honesty. My whole life this has not really worked and sometimes she feels very threatened. So especially if she is triggered and acting badly, hurting me, and I come and say something like “Well, it makes sense what you’re feeling x because of y and I feel hurt too because of z but we love each other, just need to understand where we both are hurt.”

I think this approach is so kind and is the way I’d like to be approached. If she ever approached me like this, I would feel so relieved. To my mom this approach is a threat. She will say something like “You just keep hitting me and hitting me. You’re attacking me! Get out of here! You’re not an angel! So many people say you’re hard to work with.” Or whatever it is. I’ve always felt like I am trying to help a fox out of a trap and they are snarling at me and scratching and biting and if it’s too much I might have to back away.

I have learned that my approach is not seen as kind. This last time with this, it got so bad that things have not really recovered since. First of all instead of agreeing that no matter what we do love each other and that we can work through it, she didn’t agree with that and hurtled insults. She apologized the next day, but she didn’t send me a birthday present and she always sends me a birthday present. She then felt bad and sent me one late.

I just want her to not feel so threatened and I know we all can trigger people’s fears even if we have no intension of it. I know that somehow my love for her in her worst moments are somehow maybe the worst thing it seems like.... I could tell she thought I was an absolute monster. I don’t think her fear here was made up to hurt me. It was like the fox caught in the trap, thinking I was going to kill her.

Can anyone relate and help me out on this? My mom is 76 and I’m 44... I want this to heal. I dearly love my mom. She is an amazing person, but there is something very wrong about how all of this goes down.
If she is anything like some other 3s I've met, she might not even realize her own emotionality in such..."aggression".
Pointing that out can essentially be an attack of her self-perceived composure, in her eyes.
That said, we mostly regret it afterwards. And that's the best time to talk to her.

So pointing that out might be counterproductive, it's better to let it fizzle out, give her space.
The thing that helped me realize how to handle other 3s is essentially, any "hostility" is often an emotional reaction.
You can't reason with an emotional reaction. Wait until it settles down.

Furthermore, you might want to look into Counterphobic 6, too. All unhealthy 6s can show (disintegrate) to 3-ish negative behaviors. Including that mask.
The CP 6 (counterphobic) also tends to be a whole lot more reactive to perceived threats compared to a 3.
Meaning, the 3 usually needs more provocation before they act out. While the CP 6 often lashes out preemptively.
 

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Your mother had no right to treat you like that and you deserve a childhood full of love and encouragement!

That being said there is probably a reason why your mother has that kind of behaviour and it isn't allways easy to find a concrete reason, but it should never be an excuse for letting the kid take the burden instead. Now she has become elder and I think you want her last years to be pleasant and harmonic because you are a nice and kind person, but it is hard when she has this attitude of hers. When people are older their hormones changes too, making females less agreeable, generally speaking. I think that when you wisit your mother you should bring someone with you to support you, or have someone around you at all times. Some people live for a long time. My grandmother (not my biological) lived over 100 years. That is a long time to be treated like that and you will in that case your self be old. So I still suggest that you don't accept her behaviour but let her know how you feel. Maybe its exactly what she need, and maybe she will even respect you for it? Defend your self! To defend one self is not a cruel or mean attack, it is human and healthy! That is my advice. I wish you the best!
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Something I learned about my mom as I got older is that she's a very fragile and vulnerable person. I can't rely on her to be emotionally strong and to do the "mature" thing even relative to me, who is decades younger. It's not because she doesn't want to or doesn't try but because she's experienced too much pain in her life and the wounds didn't heal properly. When we're having a disagreement, I learned the best thing is to back off before she reaches her breaking point or she'll lose control and then feel terrible after. There are certain things she can't handle coming from me and the kind thing is not to say them, no matter how much I'd like an "ideal" mother-daughter relationship where I can tell her anything and everything and we could work through it.
This is how my ISTP dad deals with her too. He gave me a gift once by saying "I know you want to be close to your mom, but you can't. She just hates herself too much."

I'm sorry. I wish we could be closer to our moms. =)

When she does things to hurt me is the time that this all comes out, because I really will only take so much without standing up for myself.
 
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(I seem to have a similar relationship with my mom, so I might project a bit in this post and it might make my response less relevant to your situation.)

Anytime I try to communicate deeply with my mom about a problem we/I am having, she totally shuts down. Her MO is to “tune out” the moment she hears something she perceives to be an attack—even if it isn’t an attack. It’s so bad that I made the mistake of bringing up the rift between us a few months ago to see if we could bridge it, and I definitely won’t be doing that again!

If you don’t mind me asking, what is her MBTI type? Mine is an ISFJ. We have an extremely strong parent-child dynamic, and she becomes incredibly prideful and defensive the moment she feels I am going above her head on an intellectual/emotional level so, my entire relationship with her is built on shallow small-talk which is unfulfilling to me, but it’s that or nothing at all.


I think that sometimes it is particularly difficult for NF’s when they try to connect with someone on a deeper, emotional level, and are unable to because the other party is not receptive. I think that sometimes this can happen with other types because it leads to confusion. (Why are we talking about this? Where is this coming from? Do you have a problem with me? I don’t understand what you’re trying to get me to realize and this confusion is making me feel frustrated/angry/defensive.)

I’ve noticed that—for most people—once a relationship dynamic has been established, it becomes nearly impossible to change. Unfortunately, I think parents have a difficult time reconciling the change between their ten year old child with their now-adult one.

My mom also feels the need to be perfect and cannot accept when someone thinks she is less than this so if I come to her with something that challenges her carefully crafted “perfect” image, we have a huge problem.

I applaud your efforts to keep trying where I have given up. Has it always been this way between you and your mom or has something in the past happened to produce tension and make her less receptive to “hearing you out”?

(Sorry I didn’t address the enneagram aspect of your post. It is very new to me and I am still learning about it! I did find this though. I know it points to a romantic pairing, but I wondered if you could pick similarities out of it for your relationship with your mom.)

This is helpful because of the connection-- it feels healing to know you're not alone.. Honestly she seems like a fellow Ne-dom who is annoyed by my Ne-dom lol.. It's hard to say. She might be ENTP (although I don't think so, she seems Fi-Te) or also might be ESFJ. I think she's an ENFP 3 has been my conclusion.. Definitely a 3. The unhealthier someone is, the more obvious their enneagram, I'd say.

Aren't those relationship descriptions just wow? I think I'm most likely either 7 or a 1, although I think people guess 2 about me for the most part, but I feel like I can't be a 2 because if I was I'd be at pretty high health, and I don't think that's correct. We all test on the high level of health if the Enneagram isn't correct lol. I'm at medium health levels of 7, so that's likely it.
 

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Possibly, she has felt controlled in her past by someone who was less than kind, and when you try to fix the situation with logic, she sees it as you trying to control her and to "fix her" against her will. The fact that she is reacting so strongly, even to the point of almost removing your daughtership shows how strongly she will fight to be herself. She has possibly lost trust that people who are close to her won't hurt her. Even though logically, your mind has a great solution to the problems between you and her, that is a threat to her someway. Therefore, the best thing you can do is to stop trying to straighten out the situation or her. She would feel less threatened if you would just hug her, and say "I love you mom, what can I help you with today?"
I do know what was going on in her past. It was nasty. This is a helpful perspective you've got just because it's so obviously how she must view it and is so foreign to me. I personally think not being able to talk easily about feelings with a feeling person sounds like.... well... it sounds like what I've been dealing with. =)
 

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If she is anything like some other 3s I've met, she might not even realize her own emotionality in such..."aggression".
Pointing that out can essentially be an attack of her self-perceived composure, in her eyes.
That said, we mostly regret it afterwards. And that's the best time to talk to her.

So pointing that out might be counterproductive, it's better to let it fizzle out, give her space.
The thing that helped me realize how to handle other 3s is essentially, any "hostility" is often an emotional reaction.
You can't reason with an emotional reaction. Wait until it settles down.

Furthermore, you might want to look into Counterphobic 6, too. All unhealthy 6s can show (disintegrate) to 3-ish negative behaviors. Including that mask.
The CP 6 (counterphobic) also tends to be a whole lot more reactive to perceived threats compared to a 3.
Meaning, the 3 usually needs more provocation before they act out. While the CP 6 often lashes out preemptively.
I had a friend who was a counterphobic 6, that pre-emptive stuff is the truth.
My mom is a true 3. She has huge accomplishments under her belt and still produces big projects. There's never a time that she doesn't have a project. Mostly I am very baffled. She goes from 0 to 60 in a split second. I suppose I should know by know what is going to kick her off, but I don't always. This last time, I hadn't been around her for about a year. We moved out of state. It was shocking... the level of not being able to talk rationally and the level of her vehemence. Well.... it was all really bad. Enough so that I wonder if I'm past being hurt and also past expecting us to get along... but I'm probably not past standing up for myself. I only learned to do that consistently the last few years. . Basically, if she can say it, she has, maybe? But I wonder if that also means that she knows I don't have this "image" of her that she will want. I don't know. My poor mom.
However, I can try to just leave the situation and see if she calms down. She often tries to get sympathy/talks bad about me.... classic unhealthy stuff, though, and I'm kind of done with that. I'm done with her getting away with that, because that's not new at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Your mother had no right to treat you like that and you deserve a childhood full of love and encouragement!

That being said there is probably a reason why your mother has that kind of behaviour and it isn't allways easy to find a concrete reason, but it should never be an excuse for letting the kid take the burden instead. Now she has become elder and I think you want her last years to be pleasant and harmonic because you are a nice and kind person, but it is hard when she has this attitude of hers. When people are older their hormones changes too, making females less agreeable, generally speaking. I think that when you wisit your mother you should bring someone with you to support you, or have someone around you at all times. Some people live for a long time. My grandmother (not my biological) lived over 100 years. That is a long time to be treated like that and you will in that case your self be old. So I still suggest that you don't accept her behaviour but let her know how you feel. Maybe its exactly what she need, and maybe she will even respect you for it? Defend your self! To defend one self is not a cruel or mean attack, it is human and healthy! That is my advice. I wish you the best!
She is going to live a long time.
BTW Electra and @Rift She's in terrific shape and exercises about 1 1/2 hours-3 hours per day, btw. She's a 3, she's got a lot of projects and is the head of a bunch of stuff... that kind of stuff. Actually, she writes the most fantastic history books I've ever seen. They are fascinating!. She's a genealogist by trade, super cool in those areas. COVID has been a bit tough on her socially, but she is still head of stuff and writing and talking on the phone. I think she said "I'm going nuts, but I'm getting a lot of stuff done." Anyway, this argument happened fall 2019. I just barely realized I can ask 3s about it and maybe get some more perspective. I already talked to my therapist about it quite a bit.

I think one of the newer problems is that I am standing up for myself ( I used to stay silent ), not even in a rude way, in my opinion. But maybe in a condescending way? For instance: "Mom, you and I can surely work THIS out. All we have to do is talk about our feelings and care about each other. We both want each other to feel loved, don't we?" After which I find out that she probably either can't listen to me in that mode or she really doesn't care if I feel loved. I'm gonna go with the 1st one. Otherwise, it's sooo sad that it's almost comical. Here I am saying "We really love each other, that's all that matters." and she's like "You're horrible. You're a freak. You're a monster." So.... someone who has done as much for me as my mom, even though I know it all made her feel better about herself and all... but really mostly she loves me and does so much for me and my family. So. I'm going to go with that she is just so unhealthy that she really can't think straight at those moments.
 
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She is going to live a long time.
BTW Electra and @Rift She's in terrific shape and exercises about 1 1/2 hours-3 hours per day, btw. She's a 3, she's got a lot of projects and is the head of a bunch of stuff... that kind of stuff. Actually, she writes the most fantastic history books I've ever seen. They are fascinating!. She's a genealogist by trade, super cool in those areas. COVID has been a bit tough on her socially, but she is still head of stuff and writing and talking on the phone. I think she said "I'm going nuts, but I'm getting a lot of stuff done." Anyway, this argument happened fall 2019. I just barely realized I can ask 3s about it and maybe get some more perspective. I already talked to my therapist about it quite a bit.

I think one of the newer problems is that I am standing up for myself ( I used to stay silent ), not even in a rude way, in my opinion. But maybe in a condescending way? For instance: "Mom, you and I can surely work THIS out. All we have to do is talk about our feelings and care about each other. We both want each other to feel loved, don't we?" After which I find out that she probably either can't listen to me in that mode or she really doesn't care if I feel loved. I'm gonna go with the 1st one. Otherwise, it's sooo sad that it's almost comical. Here I am saying "We really love each other, that's all that matters." and she's like "You're horrible. You're a freak. You're a monster." So.... someone who has done as much for me as my mom, even though I know it all made her feel better about herself and all... but really mostly she loves me and does so much for me and my family. So. I'm going to go with that she is just so unhealthy that she really can't think straight at those moments.
You said about an argument between you and her, quote: "I think she said, "I'm going nuts, but I'm getting a lot of stuff done." Anyway, this argument happened fall 2019." Just looking at the argument on the face of it, did you suggest to your mom that she get some mental help, therapy, or medication? Did her abuser ever tell you that your mom was nuts? You also say she is so unhealthy, but the real problem may be that she does not trust anyone, due to perceived past betrayals. You said earlier that she was treated nasty by someone, did you sometimes side with her abuser?

She sounds like a very put-together and gifted woman, who has been through a lot, yet she has been good to you and the family. The bottom line could be that she likes who she is and does not want anyone, no matter how much she loves them, to ever manipulate, control, or try to fix her against her will. When she thinks that is happening again, it feels like an attack to her, then she loses it. I may not even be close, but, you said the argument in 2019 started with her saying "I'm a little nuts, but I'm getting a lot done." If this started an argument, it could only be because you literally agreed with it and offered suggestions to help her, when she was actually casually making a statement of how busy she was.

If pushed a lot harder, your mom could cut you off. Not sending you a birthday present was a shot over your bow to tell you to back off. You can either be right, or have a mom, but in this case, not both.
 

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I had a friend who was a counterphobic 6, that pre-emptive stuff is the truth.
My mom is a true 3. She has huge accomplishments under her belt and still produces big projects. There's never a time that she doesn't have a project. Mostly I am very baffled. She goes from 0 to 60 in a split second. I suppose I should know by know what is going to kick her off, but I don't always. This last time, I hadn't been around her for about a year. We moved out of state. It was shocking... the level of not being able to talk rationally and the level of her vehemence. Well.... it was all really bad. Enough so that I wonder if I'm past being hurt and also past expecting us to get along... but I'm probably not past standing up for myself. I only learned to do that consistently the last few years. . Basically, if she can say it, she has, maybe? But I wonder if that also means that she knows I don't have this "image" of her that she will want. I don't know. My poor mom.
However, I can try to just leave the situation and see if she calms down. She often tries to get sympathy/talks bad about me.... classic unhealthy stuff, though, and I'm kind of done with that. I'm done with her getting away with that, because that's not new at all.
lol, sorry, this got a bit more long-winded than I anticipated. Anyway, I hope it provides more food for thought.

This is just me saying, it can be difficult to tell them apart. I had a friend I was sure was a Sx 3, too.
She also partook in huge projects, was active and doing stuff constantly.
But upon closer discussion, the reasons vary. I.e. same results, different reasons.

I as a 3 want respect, recognition and praise something along those lines. That's why we "perform".
While the CP 6 wants power -- because people won't dare touch you or hurt you if you're powerful, right?
It's also a very much more hierarchical kind of thinking from the CP 6. Since titles demand a certain level of respect, according to them, it seems. I'm more blind to that, or perhaps one could say, more flexible? lol

But that's how a CP 6 that disintegrates to 3, I saw the aforementioned friend walk that path last year. Yuck.
My disintegration to 9 is a whole lot more about depression, doing nothing, wasting time, sulking/wallowing in my feelings. In other words, we don't tend to become reactive. Even if unhealthy. (unless their image is threatened)
The CP 6 will always be reactive first, how others perceive them (image) comes secondary -- it's not their core.
And they'll be more prone to "repairing" relationships afterwards, since they react first. Think later.
3s are opposite there. Which is why I'm leaning towards CP 6.

Also, about you not having an image. I usually do not care about that.
Though I have seen some failed 3s (or 3s that perceived themselves to have failed, unhealthy) try pushing their own goals/aspirations on their children.
Though honestly that's not the vibe I'm getting.
That tends to be more positive affirmation; especially when they succeed in what the parents want.

I will say, my grandmother is a 7.
And that can be quite grating, in terms of unreliability and the sometimes chaotic tendencies of the 7.
i.e. making promises and then....nothing, or refusing to uphold said promises later. Backing out last minute.
But it's usually not enough to warrant what your mother seems to put you through.

But maybe in a condescending way? For instance: "Mom, you and I can surely work THIS out. All we have to do is talk about our feelings and care about each other. We both want each other to feel loved, don't we?"
Though this might be my ENTJ way, but you might be better off asking "What could I do better?"
IME 3s prefer to go to the cause of emotion, as in: If I bump my toe everyday in the table on the way out.
I move the table, I don't necessarily talk about my pain. No bumpy bump toe, no pain.

Just a short in the dark, but maybe understanding her love languages may help?
I'm sure it's applicable to some (limited?) extent. It sounds like your way of doing things -- and possibly in how to make you feel loved -- might vary. This could add to any frustration.
 
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
You said about an argument between you and her, quote: "I think she said, "I'm going nuts, but I'm getting a lot of stuff done." Anyway, this argument happened fall 2019." Just looking at the argument on the face of it, did you suggest to your mom that she get some mental help, therapy, or medication? Did her abuser ever tell you that your mom was nuts? You also say she is so unhealthy, but the real problem may be that she does not trust anyone, due to perceived past betrayals. You said earlier that she was treated nasty by someone, did you sometimes side with her abuser?

She sounds like a very put-together and gifted woman, who has been through a lot, yet she has been good to you and the family. The bottom line could be that she likes who she is and does not want anyone, no matter how much she loves them, to ever manipulate, control, or try to fix her against her will. When she thinks that is happening again, it feels like an attack to her, then she loses it. I may not even be close, but, you said the argument in 2019 started with her saying "I'm a little nuts, but I'm getting a lot done." If this started an argument, it could only be because you literally agreed with it and offered suggestions to help her, when she was actually casually making a statement of how busy she was.

If pushed a lot harder, your mom could cut you off. Not sending you a birthday present was a shot over your bow to tell you to back off. You can either be right, or have a mom, but in this case, not both.
No no, you’re WAY off. WAY off. “I’m going nuts but I’m getting a lot of stuff done”. Is not anything that caused an argument. That was how she said she was dealing with COVID. Someone before you asked how she was doing with COVId, that’s how she was doing.

You’re going so far, but if you want to know, her abusers were her older sisters and her mother. I have stuck up for her many times and I also have pointed out their manipulation, because until recently she was having a really hard time admitting that the biggest abuser was the biggest abuser. Her sister is a very skilled manipulator. How interesting that you think her behavior is condonable. Of course it is not. I am the one telling you she is a skilled person. Those are my descriptions of my mom. I take an honest look. She is awesome in most ways and she is also very hurtful and like the snarling biting fox in many ways. To me it’s normal to have good and bad traits— actually that is kind of the problem. It seems like she can’t tolerate the idea that she does anything wrong at alll— but she would say so. She wants us to tell her that she is awesome a lot. Which I do. I’m very liberal with praise. Why would I hold the good stuff back?

She doesn’t like most parts of her. She is really teeter-totter on that, sometimes really saying how much she hates herself. Sometimes saying how she saved the day. Same with other people and with myself. One day I’m the best angel and best daughter in the world and the next day I am the devil and the cause of all problems in life.

She’s very unhealthy. Very scared. I love her so much, but I think you guys might want a different kind of love. This is what they are talking about with 3s and image and lies— can you see it? For me it’s normal to love someone through their strengths and weaknesses.
 
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