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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

Great website BTW!


QUESTION
I seek advice on "job fit" for an ENFP that I am considering for a promotion. Feedback and questions welcome.


CURRENT ROLE
Our ENFP, having recently graduated from a Masters in Finance, is currently an intern with us.
She is currently responsible for a full analysis of our companies business software needs, and in turn updating our business software in preparation for our upcoming growth phase.
It's actually a massive 6 month project.
Her lack of experience, is most definitely made up by her intelligence, and passion and energy for the project (in typical ENFP fashion).
She is a little young, so does require me to create a lot of structure for her (read: advice and guidance), but I'm also trying my best to not micro manager her.
Although she's only been with us for a few weeks, my confidence is growing in her ability to succeed in this role.


FUTURE ROLE
We try our best to understand what our interns what to achieve, and we bend over backwards to try and accommodate their goals. IMO most internships are of little actual benefit to the intern, we try to avoid this if we can.

Our ENFP's main goal is to get her work visa (she is a foreign student...excellent English)...but she would like to begin developing her skills in general business analysis, and move towards, "Intra"-preneurial activities.

We have a possible full time role for her after the internship in Business Services, the role could include such things as
- General book keeping
- Possible managing our financial reporting
- Payroll admin
- Executing HR processes, advert, initial screening etc
- General admin tasks
- Personal assistant work for me as GM
- Continuing the IT development role, as needed

The role would also include
- Analysis of new business opportunities for me from time to time

The role could possible include some basic quoting and in-bound sales activities as well
And perhaps some reception work
However the accent may be a barrier?

THE ACTUAL QUESTION
With the background aside. The reality is that the role is a detailed administrative type role. Not a typically good fit for ENFPs
It is likely that as she would be working closely with me, so she will most certainly have business learning opportunities. (I like to mentor those around me).
However, I'm concerned that the detailed, repetitive nature of most of her role, while end up driving our ENFP crazy, and she won't perform well.

I look forward to your thoughts

Cheers

S
 

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... personality type isn't a measure of competence. If I were your ENFP in question I would be questioning if you're ethically qualified to keep your position by releasing personal information about me on a public forum, and your competence as a manager because you choose to judge me on something other than my performance. Ta, ta. Let us know if there is a lawsuit in your future. Thank you coming, and have a nice day. :happy:

... I represent myself and my own thoughts and your ENFP is welcome to her own. These are mine.
 

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I am considering an ENFP for a promotion - Not sure all of job suits her - ad...

^That was pretty rude. Also, the information wasn't really that personal, no names have been mentioned, nor what country shes from or where she lives ect.

I work as an admin assistant and i must say i actually really enjoy and excel at my job. I work with a good bunch of people that I love to be around so that also helps a lot. If she seems passionate about it and is competent like you say, i wouldn't let the fact that shes an ENFP deter you from giving her the promotion. The personality type is more of a guideline, we can actually be very organised and focused if we enjoy what were doing and want to succeed, its not a personality type thing, its a human thing. 😊


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... yes, and I will not apologize. He would not DARE make this thread asking about a candidate being male, female, white, black or Asian, heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual, or based on the candidate's ethnicity or spiritual beliefs. My case rests on points 2, 3, 6 and 7. He seems to be basing his argument on age and type and not her competence as an employee and showing his own lack of professionalism by disclosing information and referring his decision to an Internet forum and using the wrong parameters to judge a candidate. And why should it matter that she's French and bilingual?

The Myers & Briggs Foundation - Ethical Guidelines
 

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* Chuckle * It all depends on the ENFP I guess. I don't know any ENFP who are remotely interested in business. Not to say there isn't, I just don't know any. ENFP hate routine, mundane task, reputation also can bore us to tears. So unless she isn't cooped up in a cubicle, or small office all day, she may ground herself enough to focus. I've had a few desk jobs, and trust me they are not all cracked up to what I assumed . ENFP need freedom to move around, or come and go, lol.

You maybe surprised to know that ENFP don't dig mentoring, they like to live through their own personal experiences, mentoring would equate telling us what to do, what is best etc, Yikkes !!!....the job description has nothing to do with whether she could fill the position or not, ENFP can do anything they put their mind too, or interest them. ENFP prefer to invest their heart into their work, into everything they do. Human experiences- anything along the line of some sort of human behavior is at the core of who we are, business ? What is business, LOL. Business is so SP SJ. NF's like personal pursuits, something that will reflect back towards them. Working for other people can be draining on an ENFP.

Good luck, maybe you found yourself a focused well grounded ENFP, rofl.
 

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^That was pretty rude. Also, the information wasn't really that personal, no names have been mentioned, nor what country shes from or where she lives ect.

I work as an admin assistant and i must say i actually really enjoy and excel at my job. I work with a good bunch of people that I love to be around so that also helps a lot. If she seems passionate about it and is competent like you say, i wouldn't let the fact that shes an ENFP deter you from giving her the promotion. The personality type is more of a guideline, we can actually be very organised and focused if we enjoy what were doing and want to succeed, its not a personality type thing, its a human thing. 


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I don't think @Spastic Origami was being rude. The person is using the MBTI to type someone into a roll for a job position. Being a typist is extremely alarming specially in the work force and is looked down upon. If the OP is actually serious about using our advise or any advise gained from the MBTI I would have some serious questions about his ethics. I think a male ENFP would be very protective of us. I don't find his reaction rude but rather a defensive posture to protect her.

The MBTI at it's basic core is just a shell of how a person sees and perceives information. Think of it as a pair of glasses. This still leaves a lot to be open about on the level of an individual's skill set. We're still all individuals. I doubt anyone is completely like me. I do admit I have similarities with other ENFPs like our ability to be positive and understanding. This of course does not equate to that I lack the ability to understand when someone is typing me. Colleges use it to give undergrads newly out of high-school an ability to understand themselves so they can pick a field that might suit them. They also walk a fine line with that. The test is only used to give them a compass of what degree program they might fit and is not used to judge the student that they HAVE to pick one of the ones on the list. We have an ENFP as a doctor in here. In fact we do extremely well at sciences in general because of our Ne brain. Added with her positive outlook I'm sure she makes a wonderful doctor. Being a doctor is not on the list of recommend carrier choices. If the school had used the MBTI from entering a doctorate program they could be sued for discrimination. This goes for the same thing in a job environment.

To answer the OP and I certainly hope he does not take our suggestions seriously for her sake. Please go by what she is as an individual. You stated yourself, "her intelligence, and passion and energy for the project." She sounds on paper to be very confident. We can work well in a team and in the right atmosphere be very team driven and positive. We will have a creative approach in every thing we do. Our intelligence is actually a surprise for most people. If she has passion for her job (she went and got a masters in the subject) then any ENFP will strive to be the best at it. We're a very positive force when we like what we're doing.
 

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I think ENFPs can do most things they really want to do, even if it seems contrary to their personality (which is often wildly misunderstood), if they know it will get them to where they ultimately want to be, if the goal of the business/enterprise itself is interesting to them, and/or if there are a lot of people involved. For some of us, while administrative work isn't glamorous per se, in the right niche and in high enough of a position, it can provide us with the lifestyle and quality of life we seek.

Where I still work--more than a decade later--I started as a temp. I was certain I would only stay a few years (wanderlust and all). I was initially simply interested in being exposed to a different sector. In the end, I replaced the MBA who originally hired me (long story and lots of drama). Everything was in shambles (hence the MBA being let go), and I had no one-on-one training. However within a few months I had fixed the chronic problems and set-up systems and procedures to prevent the compliance and financial issues going forward. I'm still regularly told that the department is considered one of the best run in the institution (there are metrics for this).

People tend to assume that an ENFP would be horribly ill-suited to compliance, finances, and grants, however, in terms of continual problem-solving and needing to explain complex concepts to people (who either hate it or have no experience with it), it's strangely satisfying and comes naturally to me. While SJs are known to excel at administrative and financial work (and do), I can say from experience that conversely they can lack a connection to the big picture, and thus can make plenty of mistakes as well as errors in logic. I work with a ton of SJs and they also are all content with the status quo.

Finally, I see hiring not as a marriage (meaning it's not forever), but it's about finding the best candidate to provide what is needed at the time. Everyone has their innate strengths and weaknesses, so it's an art to leverage the strengths while being cognizant of the weaknesses (which we all have), and anticipating how both will play out among a group of people. When a person is ready to move on, even when I'm truly sorry to see them go, I always see it as an opportunity to reevaluate how things are working and what changes could or should be made.
 

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Isn't illegal to use MBTI when considering promotions?
I know psychometric(and personality tests) are usually seen as okay for job screening, but not promotions.

I'm a little bit worried that OP is doing something unethical, and really, really unprofessional. Her personality shouldn't be a determinant of whether or not she can get the job done, her performance (AND ONLY THIS!!!!) should be.
 

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@OP
Please understand personality types are a guideline as to how someone will behave and not what will be their quality of work.
Also, as to whether your employee is happy with their job is in my opinion THEIR concern.

I hope, OP is trying to understand as to how someone HE ASSUMES has an ENFP personality, that is someone who is creative and may prefer dynamic tasks can fit into the humdrum of administrative work:
The answer is simple - they have a creative coping skill.

Perhaps your employee will balance the dry work with artistic skills at home.
Perhaps your employee will internally challenge themselves to complete tasks more efficiently.
Perhaps multitasking can provide creativity.
Maybe being a positive influence around the water cooler and team in general will help them do well.
Their creativity may correlate data in ways you may have never considered.
The list goes on.

In terms of mentoring, perhaps giving the ENFP challenges to overcome will let you know what type of guidance they need. In my opinion, ENFPs do best when left alone to a challenge, given the opportunity to ask questions and for you to expound upon the answers.
Also, ENFPS are open to discussing innovative ideas with peers and supervisors.

I am sure the experience will be good for the OP to learn about ENFPs in action and how we do amazing work.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
... personality type isn't a measure of competence. If I were your ENFP in question I would be questioning if you're ethically qualified to keep your position by releasing personal information about me on a public forum, and your competence as a manager because you choose to judge me on something other than my performance. Ta, ta. Let us know if there is a lawsuit in your future. Thank you coming, and have a nice day. :happy:

... I represent myself and my own thoughts and your ENFP is welcome to her own. These are mine.
Hello Origami.

You comment does lead me to recognize that I need to clarify my question. Thanks.

How easily can ENFPs remain passionate and therefore more easily remain highly productive with relatively mundane detail work, that we can all agree ENFPs don't "tend" to find particularly motivating. These roles require greater discipline from ENFPs, and graduates don't have the work history to show this ability.

Is it detail work that kill ENFPs, or does detail work that doesn't tie into the big picture that kills them? Most ENFP descriptions bring this issue up...hence me desire to seek further clarification.

This part of your post was a great....and then...

Regarding your ethical concern, frankly my friend your comment shows possible emotional scripting. My advice...is it's not wise to question someones qualifications, when you yourself lack the qualifications to hand out legal and ethical advice. I doubt you are a lawyer, or an HR expert of the regulations in my country. My actions are fair, legal, and ethical. And in fact the employee in question is aware of the post. Your post was hypocritical at best.

Your second post make little sense, and shows a complete lack of the realities of recruitment. Age does matter in recruitment, so does English skills for a communications position. Type (i.e. strengths and weakness tendencies, and passion drivers have SOMETHING to do with employ-ability, bio variables, have NOTHING to do with employ-ability. Your mixing a round circle with a group of cornered squares my friend.

Please keep your comments productive and on thread. Hijacks and trolling are not appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
^That was pretty rude. Also, the information wasn't really that personal, no names have been mentioned, nor what country shes from or where she lives ect.

I work as an admin assistant and i must say i actually really enjoy and excel at my job. I work with a good bunch of people that I love to be around so that also helps a lot. If she seems passionate about it and is competent like you say, i wouldn't let the fact that shes an ENFP deter you from giving her the promotion. The personality type is more of a guideline, we can actually be very organised and focused if we enjoy what were doing and want to succeed, its not a personality type thing, its a human thing. ��


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Hello Shandyerx,

Although I understand you don't speak for all ENFPs, I'd be interested in understanding your thoughts more.
- "I work as an admin assistant and i must say i actually really enjoy and excel at my job"
- "I work with a good bunch of people that I love to be around"
- "passionate about it and is competent"
- "if we enjoy what were doing and want to succeed"

So what is it YOU think that can make ENFPs demotivate easily with mundane admin over perhaps "s" types (have I got that right?)

Do you feel you you're good at admin as long as your involved in the big picture and can see the impact of your work?...what would you say is the primary variable to you remaining passionate about your particular work.

I look forward to your thoughts

Cheers

S
 

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Discussion Starter #12
* Chuckle * It all depends on the ENFP I guess. I don't know any ENFP who are remotely interested in business. Not to say there isn't, I just don't know any. ENFP hate routine, mundane task, reputation also can bore us to tears. So unless she isn't cooped up in a cubicle, or small office all day, she may ground herself enough to focus. I've had a few desk jobs, and trust me they are not all cracked up to what I assumed . ENFP need freedom to move around, or come and go, lol.

You maybe surprised to know that ENFP don't dig mentoring, they like to live through their own personal experiences, mentoring would equate telling us what to do, what is best etc, Yikkes !!!....the job description has nothing to do with whether she could fill the position or not, ENFP can do anything they put their mind too, or interest them. ENFP prefer to invest their heart into their work, into everything they do. Human experiences- anything along the line of some sort of human behavior is at the core of who we are, business ? What is business, LOL. Business is so SP SJ. NF's like personal pursuits, something that will reflect back towards them. Working for other people can be draining on an ENFP.

Good luck, maybe you found yourself a focused well grounded ENFP, rofl.
Great quote MuCh.

There's a lot I want to dive into here. Let me get to it later.

Much appreciate you advice!

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I don't think @Spastic Origami was being rude. The person is using the MBTI to type someone into a roll for a job position. Being a typist is extremely alarming specially in the work force and is looked down upon. If the OP is actually serious about using our advise or any advise gained from the MBTI I would have some serious questions about his ethics. I think a male ENFP would be very protective of us. I don't find his reaction rude but rather a defensive posture to protect her.

The MBTI at it's basic core is just a shell of how a person sees and perceives information. Think of it as a pair of glasses. This still leaves a lot to be open about on the level of an individual's skill set. We're still all individuals. I doubt anyone is completely like me. I do admit I have similarities with other ENFPs like our ability to be positive and understanding. This of course does not equate to that I lack the ability to understand when someone is typing me. Colleges use it to give undergrads newly out of high-school an ability to understand themselves so they can pick a field that might suit them. They also walk a fine line with that. The test is only used to give them a compass of what degree program they might fit and is not used to judge the student that they HAVE to pick one of the ones on the list. We have an ENFP as a doctor in here. In fact we do extremely well at sciences in general because of our Ne brain. Added with her positive outlook I'm sure she makes a wonderful doctor. Being a doctor is not on the list of recommend carrier choices. If the school had used the MBTI from entering a doctorate program they could be sued for discrimination. This goes for the same thing in a job environment.

To answer the OP and I certainly hope he does not take our suggestions seriously for her sake. Please go by what she is as an individual. You stated yourself, "her intelligence, and passion and energy for the project." She sounds on paper to be very confident. We can work well in a team and in the right atmosphere be very team driven and positive. We will have a creative approach in every thing we do. Our intelligence is actually a surprise for most people. If she has passion for her job (she went and got a masters in the subject) then any ENFP will strive to be the best at it. We're a very positive force when we like what we're doing.
Thank you NIHM,

That was a very measured post.

To clarify my position further, I am using this information to have further discussions with the individual to help them decide if they think they can succeed at the role. I am using MBTI for what it is designed, a mirror to help people understand themselves.

If she decides she wants to go for the position, it will be added to her contract as an opportunity, that if certain KPIs are achieved she will be awarded. I am protecting her, as I don't want to set her up for failure, and her and I have already discussed my concerns. I hope this gives you some peace of mind.
 

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Hello Origami.

You comment does lead me to recognize that I need to clarify my question. Thanks.

How easily can ENFPs remain passionate and therefore more easily remain highly productive with relatively mundane detail work, that we can all agree ENFPs don't "tend" to find particularly motivating. These roles require greater discipline from ENFPs, and graduates don't have the work history to show this ability.

Is it detail work that kill ENFPs, or does detail work that doesn't tie into the big picture that kills them? Most ENFP descriptions bring this issue up...hence me desire to seek further clarification.

This part of your post was a great....and then...

Regarding your ethical concern, frankly my friend your comment shows possible emotional scripting. My advice...is it's not wise to question someones qualifications, when you yourself lack the qualifications to hand out legal and ethical advice. I doubt you are a lawyer, or an HR expert of the regulations in my country. My actions are fair, legal, and ethical. And in fact the employee in question is aware of the post. Your post was hypocritical at best.

Please keep your comments productive and on thread. Hijacks and trolling are not appreciated.
... she has her masters, that 4/5 years of high school, 4 years of an honors undergrad and 2 years of a masters. That makes for a total of 10/11 years of school and 6 where she was responsible for her own motivation, for her own work and the details of her success. Think about it logically for a second. That a lot of detail work considering that when you get to the senior years of high school the essays aren't marked so much on their content but their structure, conformity to APA/MLA formats and the appeal to authority figures to support your argument. Mathematics courses require students to show every step, philosophy programs require one to show argument and counterargument and everything performance oriented like drama or music is memory, practice and performance of details. This I know because it is my field, details uber alles. Having a masters is all in the details.

What has more validity? Her performance and her competence? Her choice to go into whatever field she's in and to work for your company? Or a psychology test that identifies her preferences and NOT her limitations in thinking and ability? Actually, there have been numerous business articles written questioning the effectiveness of the instrument, and MBTI qua MBTI is an enterprise in the business of selling their service. A person or a company who buys a product often feels obliged to use the product because they have invested time and money into the product. Even if MBTI is 100% true, it shows that every type has a shortcoming and requires different leadership and different training.

In theory, you might have to tell an ENFP to mind the details but you might also have to tell and ISTJ to move on, or try something new because the project is no longer profitable or the solution becomes obsolete. You're telling me that she competent, right?
 
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