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Discussion Starter #41
It’s most likely you’re going with INFJ because you romanticise it, as it is your shadow.

Have you seen others who type as INFj in real life, other than online? They’re very not, rambling types. Same with most ENXJs I have seen, actually.

But anyway, self discovery is a lifelong journey. Good luck with the INFJ suit :proud:

xray
"Their thought process is utterly fixated on associations between things".

I think this is a very good description of how I think. The connections I make and how I choose to express them, I'd imagine can seem totally random but there's a 'method to the madness' and I see that in Ellen too. She's so quick to talk about how things make her feel instead of simply relaying events. The 'bounce' in her voice is similar to mine, too. I have a difficult time understanding what information is relevant and what isn't, so I tend to say it all! You can probably get a sense of that from how I type.

It may be the nature of the interview and that she is more mature than I am, but I would not be so abrupt in my speaking. Talking about any prejudice I've dealt with would result in long-winded, very heated statements about the 'state' of our world. I try to apply to people's sense of compassion and what relates us, when I'm talking about heavier topics and I tend to exaggerate things in my mind too. Everything carries weight and everything in our world is connected. I'm not religious, or even spiritual really, but that's how I feel. What I feel and what I think is real for me, whether it seems to be based in reality of not.

What I think is interesting, iss that, although you can sense the emotionality in her voice, you don't really see it in her movements. I can be sarcastic, jovial, disgusted, you hear those things in my voice and my body language might not always portray that. I do think I'm more spastic and intense than she is, which I know is saying something! Probably more reserved too. That may seem like a contradictory statement. But, despite how much I delve into a discussion and despite how much I try to connect with the listener, I still feel the massive distance between me and however I'm talking with. I'm not sure I could be "on" as often as she is either! But, maybe if it was my career to be entertaining I could manage it haha.

I'm interested in how you read my ennagram. I know even less about it than I do MBTI. Usually I type as a 4 or 5 but I wouldn't be surprised if 4w5 wasn't wholly accurate either based on what I do know. I'm not sure I'm too attached to the INFJ label? Maybe I am, I do feel that I have a "mystic" aspect of myself that I rely on in my everyday life. That could be a stereotype though! And, one of the primary reasons I was hesitant to align myself with INFJ is because I know how uncommon it is, so realistically it seems unlikely based solely on that. Why I doubt the ENFP label is because I do see how someone would initially type me as one, especially when I'm feeling more socially inclined, I'm not sure it fits though. I have an easier time being outright about myself on her because the anonymous nature of the forum. Again, you made a the point that I can focus on stereotypes a little much and you were absolutely right I think. I'm slow to open up and I'm neurotic as hell! I guess those must be treats I don't associate with ENFPs, even if this is only something that I've thought more subconsciously maybe. Hopefully that makes sense! I'm able to use analogies and I'm able to 'punctuate' my voice and connect with what my listener is thinking in person so explaining myself online can be hard. Unless I already know that person.

I'm not sure I know another INFJ. There is somebody I suspect is an INFJ and no, they are not as scatterbrained as I am. I can't deiced whether a friend of mine is an ESFJ or an ENFJ, I'm leaning ESFJ, but they are not as ramble-inclined as I am. I have a bad habit of saying things that really doesn't need to be said. If I think it, it's important I put it out there so I can see how people feel about it. I mean, unless it could be taken as rude or insensitive.

(Please do not feel like you have to response to such an all over the place message. Just thinking aloud! Thanks for your input, @xraydav)

Edit: I do think I'd be happier if I was more organized. But, what I really want if effortless connections with people who I 'get'. It's so hard to find that for me though. I'm jealous of my ESFP friend in a lot of ways because, even though he has BPD too, he's better at making friends with anybody. I'm nothing like that. That may be nether here nor there though.
 

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It’s most likely you’re going with INFJ because you romanticise it, as it is your shadow.

Have you seen others who type as INFj in real life, other than online? They’re very not, rambling types. Same with most ENXJs I have seen, actually.

But anyway, self discovery is a lifelong journey. Good luck with the INFJ suit :proud:

xray
Lol no, that's because I suggested xNFJ after reading all her replies. Have you?
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Lol no, that's because I suggested xNFJ after reading all her replies. Have you?
I would not have considered it seriously if it wasn't for @Firemoon's very precise input! I'm too close to myself to assess my type and I was finally able to acknowledge that. So, I made this thread :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I'm more curious than anything. Not with the intention of rly relating it to myself, but would anyone mind telling me what an unhealthy ENFJ may look like? What their priorities might be and how they'd interact with others?

I'm torn between INFJ and ENFP myself I guess. While a few others have made other interesting suggestions too.
 

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I'm more curious than anything. Not with the intention of rly relating it to myself, but would anyone mind telling me what an unhealthy ENFJ may look like? What their priorities might be and how they'd interact with others?

I'm torn between INFJ and ENFP myself I guess. While a few others have made other interesting suggestions too.
I'll quote because it's late and I'm feeling lazy haha

For unhealthy ENFJ:

• Dominant Fe wants to actively maintain social cohesion through honoring interpersonal duties and responsibilities. However, it can become too inflexible in terms of assuming that all individuals are essentially similar, because of wanting to avoid the inner turmoil that can be triggered by feeling separate, different, or not accepted by others. This can result in undervaluing or ignoring personal or individual needs and experiences, or anything else that is deemed as disruptive or irrelevant to achieving social connection. To other people, heavy reliance on Fe appears needy, overbearing, or presumptuous.

• When ENFJ doesn't use Ni very well: These ENFJs will tend to behave in ways that seem meaningless, perfunctory, or needlessly accommodating, ignoring important areas of life that require further development.

• When ENFJ overuses Ni: These ENFJs are prone to being too serious, demanding, or judgmental, failing to see how their meddlesome actions erode or damage relationship bonds.

Long term unhealthy Ni behaviors will eventually lead to chronic dissatisfaction or loneliness, feelings of exhaustion or low self-confidence, or unpredictable outbursts of irrational behavior.
For unhealthy INFJ:

• Dominant Ni wants to understand abstract patterns, perspectives, and implications in order to accurately predict what will happen, thereby constructing a sense of personal vision and purpose. However, it can become too prone to overcomplicating meaning and misinterpreting “truth” to the point of forming unrealistic ideals. This can result in undervaluing or ignoring simple facts and details or any perspective that is deemed as disruptive or unduly “infecting” one’s personal vision. To other people, heavy reliance on Ni appears impractical, arrogant, or neurotic.

• When INFJ doesn't use Fe very well: These INFJs will tend to behave in ways that seem isolative, indecisive, or needlessly defensive, ignoring important areas of life that require further development.

• When INFJ overuses Fe: These INFJs are prone to becoming too accommodating or expecting too much from relationships, failing to establish appropriate boundaries or standards for balancing their own well-being with the concerns of others.

Long term unhealthy Fe behaviors will eventually lead to feelings of loneliness, neediness for approval, or difficulty forming healthy relationships.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
I'll quote because it's late and I'm feeling lazy haha

For unhealthy ENFJ:



For unhealthy INFJ:
Yeah, these both a pretty spot on. Unfortunately for me.

"However, it can become too inflexible in terms of assuming that all individuals are essentially similar, because of wanting to avoid the inner turmoil that can be triggered by feeling separate, different, or not accepted by others". That hit too close to home!

"To other people, heavy reliance on Fe appears needy, overbearing, or presumptuous". Ya, I think I can say this is absolutely true.

"Failing to see how their meddlesome actions erode or damage relationship bonds". This sounds like the description of somebody with untreated BPD, especially what somebody may think of when they think of a woman with BPD. I guess it makes sense that I'd connect with it then.

Chronic dissatisfaction. Check. Exhaustion, definitely check. 'Feeling lonely in a crowd' kind of feeling. Feeling undervalued.


"It can become too prone to overcomplicating meaning and misinterpreting “truth” to the point of forming unrealistic ideals. This can result in undervaluing or ignoring simple facts and details or any perspective that is deemed as disruptive or unduly “infecting” one’s personal vision. To other people, heavy reliance on Ni appears impractical, arrogant, or neurotic". Besides the arrogance, usually, this is one of my main issues I feel.

Isolative, is a good way to put how I've been acting for awhile. I'm still 'happy-go-lucky' around people mostly and friendly when the situation calls for it but I spend more time alone than I'd like to. I need to feel connected, appreciated, loved, stimulated in the presence of people as much as possible if I want to feel even moderately content with my life! Alone time, sometimes, is overrated but my body needs a lot of rest and sleep.

My ESFP friend with BPD, meets people often but has a hard time setting boundaries and having an awareness of himself and the relationship, whereas I just can't seem to connect with anybody! Although, I have been doing on dates more and talking to people online a lot. I'm always surprised by how anxiety-free I can be when I want to put myself out there!
@Firemoon please don't force yourself to response to this! Don't disrupt your laziness for me! Thank you for the quotes!
 

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From Gifts Differing:

Extraverted feeling types without a balancing auxiliary have, nonetheless, an urgent need to base their feeling judgments on something. They have no recourse but to adopt the forms of feeling judgment that the community sanctions as suitable. Accordingly they adapt to the collective community, but their deficit of perception prevents them from adapting to other individuals.

One very unperceptive extraverted feeling type, who was having a great deal of trouble with her teen-age children, was persuaded to try to suspend judgment and consistently use the perceptive, unjudging attitude with them. She reported, “It works like a charm, but it’s the hardest thing I ever did.” In the absence of adequate perception, the extraverted feeling types are prone to jump to conclusions and to act on assumptions that turn out to be wrong.

They are especially likely to be blind to the facts when there is a disagreeable situation or painful criticism. It is harder for them than for other types to look squarely at things that they wish were not true; actually it is even hard for them to see such things at all. If they fail to face disagreeable facts, they will ignore their problems instead of finding good solutions.
 

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@Firemoon @Turi @faithhealing

Okay guys l really don’t want to be the person that says this, but you are all engaging in self-report bias. You summon some piece of literature from somewhere and say read this! This is you, and then let faithhealing go “Oh that’s so relatable” based on what has been described in the literature merely on the sight of it.

You end up choosing an answer that is favourable to you personally (For example - one that is exaggerated enough, to minimise any problems) rather than what is truthful objectively based on clear evidence, and reasoning.
 

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@Firemoon @faithhealing

Also I don’t agree with the criteria you used to determine the inferior function. It’s not that the individual uses the secondary function less, it’s that they have less control over the function, in the lower order, that this gives them problems. (Why we always hear CAPT and other leading MBTI authorities talk about one’s type looking like their Animus,
- for example, INFP stresses out like an unhealthy ESTJ)


This description is more indicative of an accurate representation of Fe under the stress of their opposing function, Ti.

“Fe-doms can use Ti consciously for tasks that require critical analysis. For instance, when learning a new concept or procedure, one needs to break it down into sensible parts in order to absorb the information effectively. However, since Ti is the opposing force to Fe, Fe is very prone to overriding and repressing Ti and misunderstanding its fundamental nature. While Fe-doms can use Ti in very simplistic ways, they cannot fathom using Ti as a “main approach to life” like a dominant function, and therein lies the main source of psychological conflict.

Fe focuses on forming and maintaining social bonds with other people, with an eye towards creating supportive and harmonious relationships. When Fe-doms rely too heavily upon Fe, they will identify with Fe’s activities, using their attentiveness to relationships or sense of social responsibility to construct the foundation of their identity. Because of this, Fe will feel continually threatened by the Ti perspective because Ti has the potential to disrupt or shatter one’s ego-image. Ti is focused on impersonal critical analysis, using detachedly factual rules and formulas to navigate the world with independence and confidence. But Fe tends to misinterpret Ti as being cold, irresponsible, neglectful, harsh, arrogant, or even antisocial. Ultimately, Fe forcefully rejects the Ti perspective because it fears that severing one’s knowledge of the world from human perspective erodes social cohesion and, if one does not place enough value on human perspective, then one has less reason to act morally or compassionately. Therefore, unhealthy or immature Fe-doms do their utmost to reject Ti in order to protect their ego-image as a “responsible, caring, and cooperative” person.

However, when Fe-doms rely too heavily upon Fe and suppress Ti, they will develop an overly narrow and confused view of the world. Instead of using Ti appropriately, Fe will use Ti to construct “rational” explanations to confirm poor judgments about people or relationships. In other words, Fe will develop a maladaptive tendency to misinterpret people’s intentions, see ulterior motives that do not exist, or project their own personal issues onto others. When Fe is not functioning in a healthy manner, Fe-doms will be more prone to: taking on too many social responsibilities; relying too much on external sources for validation, self-esteem, or moral direction; developing an unconscious fear of rejection or abandonment; feeling pressure to conform with societal expectations; becoming too conflict avoidant, insecure, or submissive; dismissing or undervaluing personal needs and priorities; interpreting behaviors that are done for oneself as selfish; having difficulty making decisions that require choosing between competing interests; applying double standards or behaving inconsistently; dismissing knowledge that is unrelated to interpersonal relationships; etc. This will lead to a buildup of feelings of incompetence, insecurity, or worthlessness, especially when they are unable to achieve the level of intimacy or harmony with others that they seek.”

Look at this ESFJ character in Superbad, how he breaks down, is Inferior Ti. He immediately starts asking questions and applying everything in terms of his rationality and explanations behind the others’ behaviour (Ti) to move to college without telling him, etc.

at 0:23

“You bailed on me, you said you were gonna be there, but then you weren’t, that’s the definition of bailing.. etc etc”

Or at 1:23 “is this about Becca, is this about some girl man!?” - he did that thing “tendency to misinterpret people’s intentions”.
 

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@Firemoon @Turi @faithhealing

Okay guys l really don’t want to be the person that says this, but you are all engaging in self-report bias. You summon some piece of literature from somewhere and say read this! This is you, and then let faithhealing go “Oh that’s so relatable” based on what has been described in the literature merely on the sight of it.

You end up choosing an answer that is favourable to you personally (For example - one that is exaggerated enough, to minimise any problems) rather than what is truthful objectively based on clear evidence, and reasoning.
The only reason I posted that quote up from Gifts Differing was because I read @faithhealing ask about "unhealthy" ENFJs.

I wasn't saying "this is you" - I was just posting up what imo, a credible source has to say re: ExFJs that don't develop their auxiliary function - which is about as close to "unhealthy" as I wanted to go - didn't want to start sourcing all sorts of crap from all over the internet, wanted to keep it "legit", haha.

There was literally no opinion of mine thrown in, I didn't even quote from the enfj section specifically (doesn't have much about this anyway).
 

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This is ENFP, and the inferior Si that comes into play in your nervous breakdown.


Ne-doms can use Si consciously for tasks that require categorizing sensory or physical details. For instance, when practicing a skill, one needs to learn methodically and remember mistakes in detail in order to improve one’s performance over time. However, since Si is the opposing force to Ne, Ne is very prone to overriding and repressing Si and misunderstanding its fundamental nature. While Ne-doms can use Si in very simplistic ways, they cannot fathom using Si as a “main approach to life” like a dominant function, and therein lies the main source of psychological conflict.
Ne focuses on intuiting patterns in the external world in order to discover new ideas or possibilities, with an eye towards taking advantage of any good opportunity that presents itself and making continuous progress. When Ne-doms rely too heavily upon Ne, they will identify with Ne’s activities, using their creative openness to construct the foundation of their identity. Because of this, Ne will feel continually threatened by the Si perspective because Si has the potential to disrupt or shatter one’s ego-image. Si is focused on methodically collecting and sorting personally relevant facts/details in order to feel grounded in one’s own framework of prior knowledge. But Ne tends to misinterpret Si as being boring, overcautious, repetitive, or even stagnant and pointless. Ultimately, Ne forcefully rejects the Si perspective because it fears that getting bogged down in tiny details is wasting precious time that could otherwise be used for pursuing new possibilities or continual progress and, if one does not have trust in future potential, then one has nothing to look forward to in life, as though one’s sense of hopefulness is slowly draining away. Therefore, unhealthy or immature Ne-doms do their utmost to reject Si in order to protect their ego-image as an “optimistic, open, and forward thinking” person.
However, when Ne-doms rely too heavily upon Ne and suppress Si, they will develop an overly unrealistic and confused view of the world. Instead of using Si appropriately, Ne will use Si to collect “factual” evidence to confirm its own intuitions, premonitions, or ideas. In other words, Ne will develop a maladaptive tendency to misinterpret situations, misjudging the value of the possibilities they see and then entertaining paths that are impractical or unrealistic in expectations, thereby increasing the chances of failure. When Ne is not functioning in a healthy manner, Ne-doms will be more prone to: overlooking important details, making careless errors, failing to learn from past mistakes (and then repeating them), having poor focus, neglecting physical health, continually arriving at dead ends or abandoning ideas midstream. This will lead to a buildup of feelings of incompetence or worthlessness, especially when they are unable to make any concrete progress towards realizing their goals or ideals.

Look at Daniel Radcliffe’s character in What If - He starts arguing and becoming defensive in terms, of “factual” information. Entertaining the path, that somehow his situation (I.e. love for this girl who has a boyfriend) is related to “Bruce Willis” in some movie. (At 0:08 “When does being a man , involve expressing your feelings?”).

So we can see something has deeply upset his internal compass/reasoning of individualistic values and significance (I.e. being a man vs not being a man)


 

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@xraydav

Well, I'm not sure what you're arguing about honestly... I basically agree with the description you've pasted. It's from mbti-notes: "Ti as an inferior function" isn't it? All of my links and criteria are from this blog...you're telling me I'm biased, self-reporting or something like that....and yet...you've posted a text from the same blog. We ...are in the same camp?? I'm actually surprised you cannot see Fe in her despite the informations you got. Anyway, this description applies to ExFJ only, and I judged her Fe was her auxiliary function rather than the dominant one. Maybe I'm wrong though, but I invite @faithhealing to read Fe-Ti struggle in ExFJ, it might help you clarify your mind. I suggest you to read inferior Se (from mbti-notes) too! Good luck!
 

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@xraydav

Chill. Don't overwhelm her with too much information, let her figure out if she feels xNFJ fits her first, then we can look for other types. I suggest you to ask her questions. So far you've only provided informations, but I didn't see you trying to understand her, it'd make things much easier if you take some time for that.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
@xraydav

Chill. Don't overwhelm her with too much information, let her figure out if she feels xNFJ fits her first, then we can look for other types. I suggest you to ask her questions. So far you've only provided informations, but I didn't see you trying to understand her, it'd make things much easier if you take some time for that.
@Firemoon @xraydav

Xray, I do appreciate all the info but it definitely is overwhelming. I think I can see where you're coming from? But, I'm not even sure where to begin to comment on all of that. I read a bunch of stuff that fit and other traits that I would not apply to myself? Are you saying that I'm not talking enough about negative traits that I have, or potential maybe 'weakness'? I mean, Firemoon did specifically ask me about weakness but I'd be more than happy to write about more of my deficits haha. I appreciate your input so I'm glad you've sent info though! I'm not sure I'm bias towards a type of anything? I just want to see what fits but my lack of knowledge when it comes to the more complicated aspects of MBTI makes that kind of difficult. I'll keep studying though.
 

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@xraydav

Well, I'm not sure what you're arguing about honestly... I basically agree with the description you've pasted. It's from mbti-notes: "Ti as an inferior function" isn't it? All of my links and criteria are from this blog...you're telling me I'm biased, self-reporting or something like that....and yet...you've posted a text from the same blog. We ...are in the same camp?? I'm actually surprised you cannot see Fe in her despite the informations you got. Anyway, this description applies to ExFJ only, and I judged her Fe was her auxiliary function rather than the dominant one. Maybe I'm wrong though, but I invite @faithhealing to read Fe-Ti struggle in ExFJ, it might help you clarify your mind. I suggest you to read inferior Se (from mbti-notes) too! Good luck!
You’re right, it is the same website. However, one description is more Ni dom, the one I picked is Fe do,. I guess what I wanted to say is unhealthy and stress mode are two different things. I think there is more literature on stress mode than unhealthy behaviours, though now thinking about it — both descriptions are correct. though, it’s best to know what it looks like

though, it would be best if more people could apply what they report from literature to the actual communications, reactions and behaviours of the OP. I’m seeing trends not just here, but on other forums as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Based on cognitive functions alone, taking into account my limited knowledge, EXFJ and ENTP seem the most accurate. Leaving me to doubt INFJ but I'll keep reading. I mean, I highly doubt I have a preference for 'Thinking' over 'Feeling' so I'm tempted to look more into ENFJ and ESFJ. And, those types have been touched on by both of you.
@xraydav @Firemoon
 
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