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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Thanks again everyone. I decided to edit out this post as upon reflection I don't think I was being sufficiently private/discrete. Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts.
 

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Uhm... so what's really going on? Cuz... that person sounds like they can barely stand to be in your presence.

I mean, if that's your "normal"? Something is seriously wrong. It seems like she was pissed off at you (or looking for a reason to be pissed off at you) before the conversation even started.

Is there some undercurrent that's tainting everything?

As for what you can do different? I didn't see anything you did wrong. (From your version of events, at least...)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the perspective. Obviously most of the time it's not like this. She typically is very affectionate and builds me up. This is how we fight though, and the contrast is remarkable. Which is why it's such a paradox. I'll have to think about if she has something simmering that's going unsaid that's making her perhaps look for reasons to get pissed. Thanks again!
 

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Um, if that was a one time thing, I'd say she was possibly PMSing, or maybe there was something else bugging her and her anger happened to be coming out in that way. For me, if there's an undercurrent, I don't want to directly bring it up, but I'll make it seem like something else is the problem when that's not really what's bugging me.

Maybe consider seeing a therapist or counselor together for help if this is bothering you consistently.

To me, you sound like you're doing all you can to make her happy.
Did you tell her that the way she spoke to you during that made you feel hurt and frustrated?
 

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Ooh goodness, reading through all of this, I felt like I was reading past old texts of mine to my boyfriend;;;

I can relate a bit to how she reacted, especially with the attitude and assuming you're underestimating her,
Perhaps feelings of thinking you're not taking into account that you know what she feels/thinks/plans.
(I have a bit of an issue I've been working on, to stop and realize that people aren't mind-readers . . . )

To be honest, I think it's all on her that do something. Just continue what you're doing, trust me!
I always thank my boyfriend for how nice he always was and how much he worked through my outbursts,
Trust me, she's going to really appreciate your reactions once she comes to terms with how she's acted.

I want to say that in time, she'll realize how ridiculous she is behaving.
It's difficult to say when that will be though, just know it happens when she apologizes.


I also really wish to apologize for the stressful situation you both are currently in, terms of marriage.
The ENTP I have been close with for years has problems with big decisions and commitment,
And the other INFJ I know of became very depressed, thinking of how long her ex and her were living together,
But how he never asked her to marry him, to the point where she wanted to get pregnant to ensure it.

(She is also a lot unhealthier than I am with a history of a lot of mental/emotional issues,
I don't wish to scare you in thinking that your girlfriend will be the same way.)


Just do what you can, and please tell her of your feelings as well!!
I never want my boyfriend to hide from me, even if it were of things that could hurt me.
Same goes for anyone close to me, I always want to know what's going on and how to be of help.

(And the INFJ friend I had, she had trouble getting her ex'es to open up to her and to approach them,
And while she'd get mad at me for helping them open up, she desperately wished for them to go to her.
I can't stress enough how much you should talk to her yourself.)


I wish you the best of luck~
 

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Hmmm....I agree with hopebeat. Either something else has been bothering her and she hasn't opened up about it, PMS, or she might be Fi dominant...lol. I've known ISFP much more likely to react in the way that she was in that conversation.....it's strange for INFJ to react in a "you are calling me stupid" way, because that's heavily rooted in inferior T (not tertiary), especially inferior Te. It's both misatribution of intent, and focusing on the self as the focal point of the statement - regardless of the actual content of the statement. ISFP are also extremely prone to doling out non-sequitur comments.
 

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If she never ever changes from the person you know her to be right now, today, what do you think? What do you envision? What will your marriage look like if she never changes one bit from how she is right now.

Someone once used that line of questioning to help me and I found it to be helpful.

I am not saying she won't change. That is not the point. It is an exercise that broke through the noise for me regarding how to think about a marital (i.e. long term) relationship.
 

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Do you think you might overwhelm her sometimes?

And does this only happen when you two are drinking?
 

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She's not feeling understood (and she's not) and she hasn't realized yet that despite all that she knows ... Much of it , doesn't. matter. It just DOES NOT MATTER. Because much of what she sees with everything (and by that I mean everything else and not a healthy focus), is temporary.

shes also not respecting you. I cut off a guy I never thought I would. I thought .. Delusionally. We'll just say that. :p in the end, each time we've parted ways, it was the respectful thing to do. I couldn't stand his inability to control his drinking (even if just to respect its a trigger for me) so I broke the connection. I think she loves you and can't let you go but she's equally not able to accept whatever it is about you for her to say the word 'inept'.

I would ask her to explain what she means. Tell her you don't understand and you want her to explain it. Because what's natural info to catch is not natural to you (even if you're lying, just do this) <-- do this. Because then it opens the door for communication.

other word choices suggest she feels you lack faith in her (you underestimate me comment), and that you don't trust her, which is a subjective view based on you not trusting her "you have no idea how long I've researched " ... This is either Fi or Fed Up from a build up of feelings over time where you question her. ENTP's can probe and debate often to learn. Sometimes , depending on how someone debates a point of mine, WHEN I'm feeling vulnerable , frustrated and fed up so kinda this, agitated because I know where this is headed thing. (Ni vision however, it's ineffective because it involves someone she loves so it's too close and faulty. Intense feelings gets mixed with and confused as intuition. Over time, Ti gets stronger and it is able to scrutinize better <-- important infj tid bit.

Scrutinize between what's an intense feeling (thought) and what's actual intuition.

This relationship I see is not the healthiest as she sounds defensive from criticism from your end (even if incorrectly perceived / projection). And she's criticizing which is no good. Look up Gottman and the four horseman.

Let's see. What else can I say?

Oh yeah. Practical to make it better. Don't tell her what her problem is. Show her.

Do this by saying 'this isn't working for me' every time she's lashing out. Help her catch herself in the act but not by pointing out what she's doing, but by letting her know your time is valuable and you don't like or enjoy being talked to that way (site examples and expect feedback to how you stink, which is good if you guys ride through resolution)

But also, ask for connection .. To repair. And affection. By asking to understand. Not in a condescending way. If she hates you right now, why? Once upon a time there was this guy I fell for that said early on, "I always end up with a girl passive aggressive" and I said, "I always end up with a man child" and sure enough, we tango'd out our pattern. I eventually learned a plethora of stuff I've ploughed through. Yet, I still have the question " what do you do to make all these women angry?" .. Because that's probably the unhealthy bits that attract him to passivity.

Anyways, my point I think in my sharing is, EVEN IF, the relationship is a loss ... The only common denominator in your relationships is you. It's best to focus on you and what you're doing. I agree with many other posts but, I see it like this.

If the ships going down, best to know why so the next ship sails better ... Keyword sail since relationship is an action like sailing the sea.

I don't see any value for my future sailing experiences, if I jump ship before the ship goes down. Introspection is your only option.
 

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I don't think it has a lot to do with you and you "triggering" her. I know times when I get irrationally irritated at something someone says - especially if I'm in a bad state. I've had this with my mother a lot, she'd say something completely normal and I'd go off like a bomb. It's actually not that bad of a sign that she does this around you (even if it's very stressful for you), because she would only do that with someone she feels very(!) comfortable around!
If my experiences correlate with hers, then there is little that you can do. At some point she'll get annoyed at herself and will work on fixing this, i.e. resolving the deeper agitation she feels for some reason.
Either way, you should set clear boundaries, because you don't have to be her punching ball. Tell her calmly that you're not here to take her hits, just because she doesn't know where else to direct them. She sounds a tad bit unbalanced - show her that you're there for her, that you support her, while she hopefully resolves these tensions in herself.
Hope that helps a bit and all the best to you and your partner :)
 

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OK, i'll give you my two cents.

first of all, i'm assuming she's an INFJ as you said. i'm not totally convinced, because i see my best friend (xNFP) having a lot more of these snarky moments than i do.

but i have them too, and when i do, there are two options
- one: you make me feel tremendously inferior and not good-enough. especially the "i know i used to live there" and "i'm not stupid" type of reactions make me think that this is one option. i think it boils down to an everyday type of feeling that we're not as smart, and with ENTPs it often comes from debates. you thrive on them, we don't. but sometimes everything we say, gets taken into a debate which we're bound to lose. not because we're stupid, but we're just not as good an on-the-spot type of thinker. i get my 'this-is-what-i-should-have-said' reactions like an hour after (we're introverts! plus we've get Ni not Ne!). sometimes that feels like you're bulldozing over all our beliefs and ideas.

maybe that's been going on for a while and she might have taken your rope-explanation as condescending. the feeling that you're the one who knows everything and she's stupid. and at least for me personally, i hate feeling inferior.
if this might be the case, i can only advise two things: for a little while tone it down ('let's look it up', 'let's ask the experts when we get there') so you just don't come across as the one who-knows-everything. secondly and for longer-term: make her look good at the things she's good at so everything balances out more. you probably are better at the rational stuff, but compliment her on the rest (but do it meaningful and on the spot when it happens, otherwise it'll look fake).



- two: there is something completely different going on, and you might not even have anything to do with it but you end up being the punchball (not fair, i know). our own emotions are often a complete fuzzy thing to us, and they are very irrational, so it makes it already very difficult to talk about them (i.e. put into words) and on top we fear not being understood, being rejected etc... so we keep it all inside, but sometimes that's just too heavy to bear.
when i get to that stage, i cannot take anything else on. if anyone then starts talking about something negative, i lash out. and then i feel really really bad, making everything worse.

this one is tougher, here you have to find out what's really wrong. tell her you feel something is a bit wrong like you've done with us. be careful not to come across as blaming so she doesn't get defensive.
but you also have to draw the line. you don't deserve to be treated that way.
 

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Hi guys and gals. I've been lurking on this forum seemingly for eons and have used many of your insights as INFJs to help me understand and empathize with my INFJ girlfriend. She is simulataneously a gem of a woman and a huge pain in the ass. I'm coming to you guys for perspective because even though we share enough amazing moments together that the thought of getting married feels blissful, we still at times fight in a way that leaves us both very drained, and it causes us to question everything.

....

The scenario (last night)

Background: We hadn't seen each other for almost two days, so she'd had alone time and seemed energetic. We went to our favorite bar (where our first date was) to talk eat and enjoy each other.

....

The exchange:

Her: "Uggg... I don't want to talk about [her grad school experience] anymore. What have you been thinking about lately?"

Me: "I've been thinking a lot about [friend A INFJ] and [friend B], they've both been super down and I'm worried. I've been talking a lot the last two days with [friend A INFJ] since he bought his cello."

Her (just a hint of snarky): "I know, you've told me that already. Why is the cello so important?"

Me (non-plussed, perhaps stupidly and missing a flag): "It's funny you mention that, he and I read this article about how important it is to have an Fe outlet when people of his personality type get stuck too deeply in their heads. The pain just doesn't come out otherwise."

Her (a touch more snarky): "Ya but what about his marriage? A cellos not going to fix that."

Me (hint of exasperation): "No you're missing the point. There is something very deep here I'm trying to explain to you but you're skipping over it. [friend A INFJ] is in triage mode. It's an existential crisis. I can't go into the details becuase it's very private but..."

Her (now switching to condesention): "Ugggg.... I know. He's gay I get it. I could tell that was the issue from what you said the other day. Come on... I can read you! Fine, it's private so why are you talking to me about it?"

Me (speechless): After about 15 seconds... "Well, there's just something you're skipping over that I thought was beautiful to share. And it's not okay that you're asserting that him being gay even though he's married is the issue. I didn't say that. Nor do I want to break his confidence and talk about it."

Her (straight up drunken loud snarky): "Yep! You're right, you win. I'm wrong. I'm sorry I asked."

Me (visibly pissed but trying to keep it together): "Babylove...this is THAT moment that you and I need to stop and reset. There's no reason for us to fight. I didn't mean to offend you. But I also don't believe I said anything wrong."

Her (calmer): "You're right...let's talk about something else."

....
This is you conversing with the INFJ woman you think you will marry?

What in the world led you to introduce the topic of your married (evidently to a woman?) gay friend's problems if you never intended to level with her about everything? Talk of respecting the friend's confidence falls flat when we consider she's your supposed wife-to-be.

Besides, she'd already figured out your friend is gay, something you apparently did not see fit to tell her.

Twice you tell her she's skipping over stuff, like some wonderful beautiful thing (which you never describe because you're too busy being condescending and talking about 'resetting' and such).

By the way, in all your analysis and helpful advice to her did you notice she mini-door slammed you twice?

Putting it plainly, your conversation with the woman is hopelessly inept. Hard to believe she didn't pour her beer on your head and walk out.
 

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Twice you tell her she's skipping over stuff, like some wonderful beautiful thing (which you never describe because you're too busy being condescending and talking about 'resetting' and such).
OK good, so i'm not the only one who got very condescending vibes reading through that.
OP, you might really want to work on that if you want this girl to be in your life!



If she is indeed an INFJ, then I think @Hanne 's post is spot on.
Thanks! :)
*Takes a bow*
 

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I briefly knew a INFJ female/ENTP male couple. They are no longer together.

He had nerve damage in his face for a time due to her fist.
 
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I get a déjà vu, woman being aggressive for no apparent reason. I shouldn’t speculate because it’s only your part of the story, and I don’t want to be presumptuous.

Or could be she’s testing you

A couple of interesting books that cover this, “I’m OK you’re OK” and “Games People Play” by a famous psychiatrist, comes under the realm of transactional analysis, i.e. you can shrink her without her knowing it. Then decide accordingly.
 

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This is you conversing with the INFJ woman you think you will marry?

What in the world led you to introduce the topic of your married (evidently to a woman?) gay friend's problems if you never intended to level with her about everything? Talk of respecting the friend's confidence falls flat when we consider she's your supposed wife-to-be.

Besides, she'd already figured out your friend is gay, something you apparently did not see fit to tell her.

Twice you tell her she's skipping over stuff, like some wonderful beautiful thing (which you never describe because you're too busy being condescending and talking about 'resetting' and such).

By the way, in all your analysis and helpful advice to her did you notice she mini-door slammed you twice?

Putting it plainly, your conversation with the woman is hopelessly inept. Hard to believe she didn't pour her beer on your head and walk out.
This seems way too harsh in my opinion. Sure, implying that someone has missed the point can be confronting and should normally be avoided, but still its no reason to get all worked up about. What happened to "having a normal discussion"? And the snarky part started earlier on anyway.

I personally feel she acted way more "easily butthurt"(sorry I cannot find a nicer word), than he was condescending. I mean, from reading the OP it seems to me he obviously had the best intentions and I can 100% relate to the feeling of "anything I say will make her irritated" vibe I got from the OP. It would piss me off like nothing else and I applaud the OP for his patience.

The question remains of course where does this attitude come from? Usually (in my case) it is when something has built up to the point it's really frustrating me, and the slightest little thing can get me to lash out with snarky comments.

Would be good to find out what she has on her mind. Maybe just choose a better moment to talk it out. Not while drinking alcohol at a bar where you are supposed to have fun! Honestly, I would tell her how you feel, how she makes you feel, and how you are worried you are hurting her/doing something wrong. By doing this you are open about yourself, while also being receptive to her and taking a vulnerable stance by showing you want to improve yourself.

Good luck! :)
 

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@jth_ENTP

Have you considered maybe she is struggling to process an old experience of feeling underestimated by others, for example her family, possibly brothers or something else?
I don't disagree, at all. That is a possibility. Regarding being in a relationship, I would add that you, as the partner, should know if you truly want to be with her during this time.

I am a believer, love can conquer all. But if you cycle through these disconnect - argument - apology - reconnection cycles often, that wears on both people. Working on managing your anxiety helps to interrupt that cycle.
 
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