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"I don't deserve to be happy"

Is this attitude so normal for #4 ?

If YES ,why ?

and how to deal with it ?
 
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No it is not healthy but wouldn't be surprised if it is a common issue having to deal with it myself, for me it is more like having to do without and struggling through life while watching others almost ease through it without much if any real struggles in life. It is very easy to be positive when life is on easy but when it hits the fan it is much harder especially when it is personal or someone close suffers.

Everyone deserves to be happy and to enjoy life just not at the expense of others.
 

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This is my take on things from looking at my own experience so it may or may not be applicable to all 4's. I'm also a social 4 so that's the perspective I'll be speaking from.

I think having thoughts of not deserving good things (happy) is pretty common amongst 4's. Growing up they believed their needs and wants were not allowed. Personally, whenever I got something I wanted as a child I remember my older brother, who was my strongest attachment, got angry at me since he didn't get his wants. So I did things that favored what he liked to keep the relationship in tact but giving up my wants at the same time and that stuck with me. In other 4's cases maybe they weren't payed attention to and believed they were unimportant. They may have been rejected in overt or even subtle ways and they took it to mean they are unimportant. That can give rise to feelings of worthlessness that is common among 4's. Feeling worthless means you don't think you deserve good things.

How to deal with it? If I had to put it simply it would be to forgive yourself and accept who you really are. One of the lost childhood messages for the 4 is, "You are seen for who you are". 4's just want to be seen, heard, and want express themselves and getting to really know who they are is the right path towards that. You don't have to hide who you are anymore.

Hope this helps. Please share any feedback or if there was anything you related to. I'd love to hear it.
 

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I'd say it is, worthlessness, undeserving of good things, defective, all normal for a 4. Why? Because you have an ideal of who you should be in your mind, and once that ideal is "reached" (it can never be reached) then you will deserve all those things. How to deal with it? Accept your self, the way you are now, get out of the gap between who you are and are not, rest easy in yourself, in your ugly, despite what you think the world thinks, lay down the burden of trying and just be, then you'll be happy even if you don't "deserve" it.

Also it's funny how I didn't read the above post but said the same thing, must be a 4 thing.
 

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The thought comes to mind that many of us grow up with our needs, wants, desires, interests, and personalities being invalidated by the world around us making do and going without including the things that are often taken for granted. Many 4s are flowers growing in the dark.
 
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The thought comes to mind that many of us grow up with our needs, wants, desires, interests, and personalities being invalidated by the world around us making do and going without including the things that are often taken for granted. Many 4s are flowers growing in the dark.
Sure I grew up like that as well but what about people who grow up like this and are not 4s. Like is this a nuture thing?
 

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Sure I grew up like that as well but what about people who grow up like this and are not 4s. Like is this a nuture thing?
I know that other types struggle differently under the same conditions so I am never surprised that so many people end up having issues or worse end up on drugs or having some other major problem. This world sucks to be honest.
 
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I hope I may join as a five with a four wing. The discussion topic took my attention because the happy thing was really the theme of my week.

I started a course on loving yourself and loving others from a buddhist perspective on Monday and in the first unit we were made to reflect on the question of what makes us happy.

When I couldn't sleep the first night of the course I had this question popping up again in my thoughts and I began to cry and I got into very deep emotional pain and at some point I felt like four years old or somehow much younger like a child, and I felt not just unhappy as that child, I felt miserable.

The beliefs that came with that grief or were the door to the grief was a bit different though to what you are talking about here. This might be the five core. For me it rather feels that there is nothing that could ever make me happy. That it just is not possible for me to be happy. To have a happy life. That I am not able to be happy.

Because it evolves around capabaility/ability my guess is that this is the five.

What I can see so far is that whether I deserve it or not is not a question that plays an important role here. Consciously it is for me rather the opposite and I remember myself telling myself many times that when I look around I would deserve it more than others. So I would be interested when you fours could describe more detailed why you think you are not worth it. If this is true about what you believe about yourself what's the stories that prove this?

I'd love to hear those!

I'd love to continue to describe mine and how I remember my childhood but first I need to do something else. I hope I can be back later.
 

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I have a really bad habit of punishing myself and withdrawing from the world when I feel like I am not who I want to be... or as my brain tells me, who I should be.

I've seen therapists for my mental health issues back when I was really struggling and one of them pointed out how I tend to speak with a self critiquing tone. A lot of "should"s and "shouldn't"s. We worked on this issue by changing the language and the tone of how I speak to myself and by inspecting where these thoughts come from.

I deal with it by practicing self love. It's a life long habit of critiquing myself so I know it isn't going to be easy; I mean, I'm still working on it. I started by replacing a lot of the "should"s with "want" and "wish". This way, it doesn't have a self punishing tone but instead, a self motivating tone. But, the issue doesn't stop here because these thoughts still stem from a place of deep hatred. So once I catch myself trying to punish myself for who I am, I engage in grounding and loving activities. Meditation, giving myself a spa treatment at home, listening to music, treating myself to a bougie drink from some expensive cafe...etc. This way, I feel like I am sending myself the message that I am okay. I'm good. There's nothing wrong with who I am. Instead, I want to celebrate all of my emotional victories in life. Making myself feel loved by me really helps.

Also, I just want to say that all the replies in this thread are so beautiful. :)
 

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So I would be interested when you fours could describe more detailed why you think you are not worth it. If this is true about what you believe about yourself what's the stories that prove this?

I'd love to hear those!

I'd love to continue to describe mine and how I remember my childhood but first I need to do something else. I hope I can be back later.

Why you think you are not worth it?

For me I can pinpoint a few reasons.

I grew up with a cousin the same age as me until I was 13, he over shadowed me because he was everything a boy was supposed to be and I was not, so people treated him like he was older than me. And the only way I knew that was because he gained respect from people for being strong, charismatic, and brave. For me that begged the question "Why do people treat him like that and not me, what is wrong with me?" So I began to think you have to be like that in order to "deserve" respect, love and admiration. And I was not like that. He was ESTP 8w7, my polar opposite fwiw.

Then Highschool reinforced this idea of who I was not and who people accept. Many kids in highschool got socially rewarded for being tough, winning a fight, coming from a "cool"(rough) neighborhood, being in juvi, being in a gang, some kids even were in jail, and everybody thought they were cool, guys respected them, high fived them, named dropped them, and girls talked about them and wanted to be around them and date them. I felt like, I'm not like these people, and because I'm not like these people the world ( my surroundings) does not respect me, admire me, love me, care about me. So the idea that I had to be like that to deserve respect, love and admiration was reinforced. After 3 years of me attending the school my cousin (who lived out of state and attended another school) moved in with my family, attends the school for a year and becomes popular to the point that people referred to me as his cousin instead of my name, and I had been there for 3 years prior, so life reinforced that idea in my head again just in case I didn't get the point, guys like him are more valuable and deserving of love than me.

And if I think back even before highschool, there was a moment where me and my cousin got into a fist fight. After the fight was over both our out little brothers told our grandma about it, me thinking my grandma is supposed to be impartial to her grandkids, never expected her to ask our brothers "Who won?" and of course both our brothers sided with ESTP because he's big and strong and can beat you up(even though it was a sloppy fight and there was no clear winner). After they told my grandma my cousin won, I won't forget the look of respect in her eyes she had when she looked at my cousin, it was like a reflex, she almost nodded at him like good job. That was the first moment I remember thinking to get respect in this world you have to be like that.

Fast forward to college, I hung around the wrong crowd, bunch of knuckle head players. One guy I was friends with had 2 girlfriends at once, I was so impressed at the time. All our main concerns revolved around girls. But silly me I was a hopeless romantic and wanted to "fall in love" and find "the one" and these guys wanted to sleep with everything in sight. At first they poked some small fun at my real desires to find a girl friend, and that was enough for me to realize the "culture" of this group", if you're not trying to be a player and you're trying to keep one girl, you're lame. I didn't have the sense to know otherwise at the time. Of course I thought there was something wrong with me, why did I feel weird about trying to bed every girl in sight, why wasn't I like these guys, also why am I not aggressive in pursing women, I remember even thinking that maybe it's because I'm gay, just to try and find an explanation. And then the reinforcement of these insecurities begun, I watched on the sidelines like a bench player as these guys treated girls like shit and got laid. It made no sense to me, why does being an asshole work, at the time I did not know all about girls liking bad boys and such. It made me feel like I had to be an asshole to get what I want, which is a relationship. And I asked myself again "What is wrong with me, why does it not feel good for me to be an asshole but it's so easy for them to be an asshole." I asked this because I watched it work, I watched them play the game and I felt like because I am who I am I don't get to play. Once again I don't deserve respect, love or admiration, because I'm not like that.

I did good by ridding myself of those friends. I made friends with an ENFJ who helped me realize those guys were bad for me and that what I wanted ( relationship, one person, love) was normal and I shouldn't feel weird or "lame" for wanting the things I want. We are still friends to this day and he is like a brother to me. And shortly I made friends with a new pack of guys who were more like me and not playerish and I felt like "Wow I didn't know I could find this." and I finally was able to be myself around others.

Fast forward to post college, meeting women, finding a job, fulfilling career, all these things seemed harder than expected. Idk why I thought life just hands you an adult life starter kit, but I realized everything that happens to me now I have to make happen myself. That's when I ran into the new I-don't-deserve-this problem, all the things I wanted I had to be someone else to get. All I could do was look up self help programs, advice, articles on the internet, and all that really ended up happening was slaps to my self esteem. To get women you need to be confident, to get a good job you need to be a go-getter, to get a fulfilling career and make your dreams come true you need to be a risk taker, to get this you need to be a hustler, disciplined, out going, a leader, alpha, respected, thick skinned, not care what people think about you, have your shit together, responsible, not insecure, not needy, focused, have a 5 year plan, have no debt, have good credit, have life figured out, have a life etc etc. In the face of all this self help advice, reading articles of 10 things women want in a man, 10 habits of wealthy people, 10 things all successful people do and yada yada yada, I felt completely unworthy, seeing things on these lists I didn't have seeing things on the list of things you shouldn't have that I do have, it just made me feel like ultimately I'm not the kind of person that gets these things in life and therefore I am not the kind of person who deserves this, because I don't have the qualities/what it takes. There is an outgoing, confident, responsible, assertive, "alpha" version of myself in my mind that looks at me and shakes his head at every day I fail to become him, telling me that I will never get where I want to get or what I want to get in this life unless I become him, he is the ideal me, the me that has life figured out, that has his shit together, that can talk to strangers without lack of social abilities, that is charismatic with every woman he encounters, an assertive go-getter, tht is installed with evrey should have on every one of those lists and freed from every should not have. And until I'm him or close to him, I have the feeling deep down that I don't deserve the things I want, because that's what it takes and I don't have that, so I don't get those things, respect, love and admiration, because those things are reserved for the people who are like that.

Sorry, that was more than a few reasons.

TLDR: Conditioned Perfectionism.
 

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For me it's some kind of survivor's guilt. So many people all over the world have it worse. Who am I to deserve all the things I have? Sometimes I just want to throw it all away. Who am I to become even capable of happiness? I don't deserve it if there are still others who are suffering and are not happy in their lives.

I may be a 4 or a 9, but it's definitely in my tritype.
 

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Thank you for your long story, @Lord Pixel

I am too tired now to be able to take it all in. I hope I can come back soon and see what I understand.

Thank you so much for your openness. It's rare that men share so openly with me. In the last paragraph in the first part you had anger coming up, right? I'd completely get why. It's so sensible to be angry at all that I find.

I know you have the four style of course but still it feels like an honour that you shared so much.

It's really like @acaciaforest writes. So kind people here. : )
 

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I have others heard talking like this, @Sei35, I think Nines and Fours : ) I am always struck about hearing such an experience. I don't believe that I take something away from people who are miserable when I am happy. To be honest, I don't get the whole reasoning behind. Could you explain more in depth?

What I have - what is different, but I think worth a comparison - I am fearful of success because I have often experienced rejection in the form of envy when I got something nice or achieved something. On the surface the whole pattern might look as a caring for others, not being too successful in order not to trigger unpleasantness for them, but truly I don't care about them, what I don't want, is to be rejected.

What I am wondering, is, where the concern with your own needs is involved in your pattern because our patterns are always here to protect US : ) Do you have a clue?
 

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hej @Lord Pixel

Thank's again for your detailed account on your feelings of not deserving happiness. I think I didn't realise very clearly the main point you were making. That for you it felt as if you were the wrong kind of character to gain or to earn happiness. It is the more popular personality types - like male eights for example - who get what they want and are happy because of that. But you cannot.

Have I summarized well?
 

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hej @Lord Pixel

Thank's again for your detailed account on your feelings of not deserving happiness. I think I didn't realise very clearly the main point you were making. That for you it felt as if you were the wrong kind of character to gain or to earn happiness. It is the more popular personality types - like male eights for example - who get what they want and are happy because of that. But you cannot.

Have I summarized well?
Well I didn't want to say it's just male 8s or any particular type. Just there are traits that people respect in other's and reward them for having that I did not have, what ever personalities have the those traits. So yea that was my point pretty much.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
To @The Edwardian Spirit @KidPeculiar @Lord Pixel @Sengai @acaciaforest @Sei35


so sorry for the late reply

,and

Thanks for all points of view and solution
Thanks for being here in the time that I need help

_

sometimes when the sky didn't turn out to be in the exact way like my sketch
and I am not aware of my stupidity

I could be in hell to feel the unnecessary burning
,which I think I deserve it
,which I feel painfully comfortable

,and the burn could make me feel deeply again

I think I enjoy it when I can rebirth

...so weak ,so human ,so silly

_

I agree with you,guys about the expectation of 4s
,and will bounce back to set it as my mission to see it through
_

somehow reading and feeling from your comments make me have some strange hope
....the tiny hope that I know it will need my strong grip to pet and pound
and know for certain that 'we' are in 'this' together as...
_

maybe we,humans weren't designed to be completely happy
 

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I think I get better and better what you are really saying, @Lord Pixel. This is really the four's core identification, isn't it, that you possess all the unpopular traits? Do you see that clearly?

You know, when I read your long posting and your confirmation of my summary I wanted to reply something like "you are mistaking admiration and popularity for happiness" - but now I understand much better that the story you tell really is the four's self-defense and is as such totally healthy and if we want to use this ugly word from psychology functional. (We really need better ones)

What is so interesting around the Enneagram four style is that occidental psychology doesn't realise that it is just another way of nature to protect life in endangering situations like childhood.

Popular psychology is such a fucking mess. Hahahahahahaha! (Sorry, that's what five's like. To find out the flaws in someone elses knowledge).

I haven't realised as profoundly yet as now that what is recommenden in our culture is to adapt a mix of the strategies of the three, seven and nine, and for the ladies some fourish emotionality, for the gents a little touch of the eight's strength as a cure all, not realising that these are no less a trap than the four's or the other more unpopular or more neutral styles in the public taste.

The question is, what do we do about this? I realise that I need and want to make friends more fully with my four wing. The five's intellectual prowess is much more popular than the ability to deal with pain well. I learned that outside and judge myself accordingly. But it is actually a transformative power. The more resistance to pain and emotions, the more difficulties we have to relax, allow, and - BE HAPPY - the three, seven and nine : )

Because happiness is not wanting to be anywhere else. Gaining admiration from others rather is a happening. And it ends and it fades and then you get addicted - the three : )
 

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I have others heard talking like this, @Sei35, I think Nines and Fours : ) I am always struck about hearing such an experience. I don't believe that I take something away from people who are miserable when I am happy. To be honest, I don't get the whole reasoning behind. Could you explain more in depth?

What I have - what is different, but I think worth a comparison - I am fearful of success because I have often experienced rejection in the form of envy when I got something nice or achieved something. On the surface the whole pattern might look as a caring for others, not being too successful in order not to trigger unpleasantness for them, but truly I don't care about them, what I don't want, is to be rejected.

What I am wondering, is, where the concern with your own needs is involved in your pattern because our patterns are always here to protect US : ) Do you have a clue?
Maybe it is in some ways similar to your experience. I am also fearful of success. This is because in my experience and what I've seen with others, that more successful and powerful people abuse the less fortunate ones. Sometimes they don't actively do this, but in trying to hold on to power they refuse to give others a chance.

Even if I didn't have the personal experience, our culture has a way of telling us so. For example, that most politicians are corrupt and many rich people are crooks. It couldn't be helped that I associate success with unfairness or selfishness. The flip side of that is that if you have some appearance of success, people will assume that you will share with them. Otherwise, you really are selfish.

In a way, poverty and ignorance are glorified and equated with innocence.

The thing is, I don't really want to deal with so many people, so I don't want to bring too much attention to myself by being too happy, haha. Introvert problems.
 

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I think I get better and better what you are really saying, @Lord Pixel. This is really the four's core identification, isn't it, that you possess all the unpopular traits? Do you see that clearly?

You know, when I read your long posting and your confirmation of my summary I wanted to reply something like "you are mistaking admiration and popularity for happiness" - but now I understand much better that the story you tell really is the four's self-defense and is as such totally healthy and if we want to use this ugly word from psychology functional. (We really need better ones)

What is so interesting around the Enneagram four style is that occidental psychology doesn't realise that it is just another way of nature to protect life in endangering situations like childhood.

Popular psychology is such a fucking mess. Hahahahahahaha! (Sorry, that's what five's like. To find out the flaws in someone elses knowledge).

I haven't realised as profoundly yet as now that what is recommenden in our culture is to adapt a mix of the strategies of the three, seven and nine, and for the ladies some fourish emotionality, for the gents a little touch of the eight's strength as a cure all, not realising that these are no less a trap than the four's or the other more unpopular or more neutral styles in the public taste.

The question is, what do we do about this? I realise that I need and want to make friends more fully with my four wing. The five's intellectual prowess is much more popular than the ability to deal with pain well. I learned that outside and judge myself accordingly. But it is actually a transformative power. The more resistance to pain and emotions, the more difficulties we have to relax, allow, and - BE HAPPY - the three, seven and nine : )

Because happiness is not wanting to be anywhere else. Gaining admiration from others rather is a happening. And it ends and it fades and then you get addicted - the three : )
Well when you attach significance to love, respect and admiration you feel like you don't matter to people with out at least one of those. It's like you aren't seen and other's are more significant and valuable than you are. Constantly not being seen because the world is looking at other's who are more worthy.
 

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I'd rather not believe the exceptions to the rule are 4s that know they shouldn't be abused. No, it's not normal for 4s, likely because anyone can become depressed. Popularized descriptions of Enneatypes seem to focus on how we overcompensate for our weaknesses. This is useful to see how we respond differently to conflict, but we should remember environment or disorders do more damage to us than our own personality styles.

How to deal with negative notions? A few ways are knowing what you're possibly running from dealing with, and remaining calm enough to take advantage of better options instead of feeding a panic. Definitely work on immediately accepting when you are upset instead of pretending to be unfazed or "normal." In my experience it worsens things to deny yourself that kind of relief. Also I hear psychotherapy is good to try.
 
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