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Some questions down the bottom :)

I always read about infps' being steadfast, and who consider the notions of 'right' and 'wrong' as black and white and non negotiable...

but I am not exactly like this. I think the world is morally ambiguous and would happily concede my position if I wasn't accurate. Do descriptions of Fi overplay the notion of strongly held values? I mean, I know estjs', isfjs', istps', entps' who defend their beliefs stronger than I do. Every time a "value" is defended, people are quick to assert that that is a demonstration of Fi+Te, but every person has values and beliefs and ties to them to differing degrees, across the scope of all people.

I was always the person with "live and let live" attitude, and I used to associate fi with this statement (within reason, clearly something Fi believes strongly is hardly going to be tolerated) but I am unsure about this.

Maybe black and white thinking is just alleviated through the development of Ne. Thing is, I don't think i've ever had values that were in terms of black and white thinking, but I do admit to having bouts of dichotomous thinking when it comes to how I think about myself and my life. I apply two systems it seems.

Maybe "strong values" come from certainty? I tend to always question what I think and it's hard to strongly advocate for something one is not sure of. Does Fi normally latch onto something without effort?

Q: What's your relationship like with your values?

and

Q: are your values black and white? (i.e. things are either good or bad, there's no grey)
 

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There is nothing but shades of grey
Wrong (in my book that is).

Some things will always be wrong, a pretty harsh example would be rape. I honestly can't find ANY thing that justifies it (although I tend to feel less sorry for some people who suffer it *cough*, but that's just me enjoying a bit of schadenfreude, when someone has 'wronged' me in the past. I can view it as the punishment they earned earlier )

Another example would be, you will never get me to support the Israelis regarding Palestine.
It doesn't matter if you show me tons of reports about how many lives might have been saved by it or w/e, it is not right regardless.

And to finish this, myself I do have some strong values, but I'm mainly adaptable, negotiable etc.:mellow:

Edit:

Q: What's your relationship like with your values?

I think I'm not consciously aware of most of them, which means it can be a bit stormy at times. Some values seem to have pretty much been forced down my throat as well, those values tend to make me pretty frustrated when the conscious me says, "What the hell is wrong now?" I just can't grasp that something is wrong, yet I feel the 'punishment' of breaking a value (pretty harsh in my world).

Of course there are a lot of values I've identified, my conscious me is generally supportive of them (not all though).
Overal, lets say 70% accepted, 30% bothersome.

Q: are your values black and white? (i.e. things are either good or bad, there's no grey)

I have some moral absolutes, I do. but I also think that there are a lot of greyness in this world. To much even.. Seeing as a lot of people abuse this 'greyzone' to capitalize on the fact that there is no right/wrong.
 

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there's no black and white model that applies to everything... too much variety and ambiguity for that. at the same time, i understand why it's said that our values are non-negotiable. i think that in any given situation, it's hard to shake me off my perception of what's right and wrong. i can't ever say "this is always right, and this is always wrong". but if i say "this is right right now" or "this is wrong right now", i'm not likely to be shaken from that.
 

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Well, I want to talk about colors if I may, but of course, only in my humble opinion follows these words:

I see the world in mostly grey. There are a few black and white issues/values/morals/guideposts that I absolutely will not budge on. If one tries to get me to move on any issue pertaining to those things I hold true, I'll start to see red. I must stay true to what I feel is right for me despite what a society, family or friends say. I'll resist and insist and dig in my heels. But most of the time... I'm in a grey area, floating along, easy going, loving life. The Dude abides.
 
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I see the world in mostly grey. There are a few black and white issues/values/morals/guideposts that I absolutely will not budge on. If one tries to get me to move on any issue pertaining to those things I hold true, I'll start to see red. I must stay true to what I feel is right for me despite what a society, family or friends say. I'll resist and insist and dig in my heels. But most of the time... I'm in a grey area, floating along, easy going, loving life. The Dude abides.
Yes - exactly! That's how I think about having dom Fi - for the very most part, I'm laid back and I'm generally good at tailoring my responses to the situation (i.e. I form an opinion based on using more detached/objective criteria). If someone can make a convincing argument, I am easily swayed to their way of thinking. This is why for the most part, I have no problem debating.

Then there's Fi - there's like a line in my brain demarcating my Pness (hehe) from Fi. Then it's much harder for me to budge (although I can, it just takes a hell of a lot). Intellectually, I understand that there are shades of grey when it comes to my core values, but I can't really believe it - like viscerally.
 
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Q: What's your relationship like with your values?
A: I think I have pretty general morals, because every situation is different so you just have to take everything with a pinch of salt and not judge people too harshly,


Q: are your values black and white? (i.e. things are either good or bad, there's no grey)
A: I like that you said there is no grey! Erm I think that for the most part things are done for good reasons, because people sometimes do stupid things which have bad consequences, but they had the best intentions based on what they know, no one really wants to just disrupt a situation, and if they are like that then maybe it isn't their fault and it is how they were raised so I think that everyone deserves a chance...
 

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.. my Pness...
Just thinking here about my Pness also, I say *possibilities and not much closure* equals P and I live a lot of my life in that world. However, when something in me is violated and it's something I hold dear, I can become very black & white. It reminds me of this from one of the INFP profiles...

"INFPs are flexible and laid-back, until one of their values is violated. In the face of their value system being threatened, INFPs can become aggressive defenders, fighting passionately for their cause. When an INFP has adopted a project or job which they're interested in, it usually becomes a "cause" for them. Although they are not detail-oriented individuals, they will cover every possible detail with determination and vigor when working for their "cause"."

"INFPs have a profound sense of honor derived from internal values. The INFP is the Prince or Princess of mythology, the King’s Champion, Defender of the Faith, and guardian of the castle. Sir Galahad and Joan of Arc are male and female prototypes of an INFP. To understand INFPs their cause must be understood, for they are willing to make unusual sacrifices for someone or something believed in."

"They can make errors of fact, but seldom of values."

"In the routine rituals of daily living, INFPs tend to be compliant and may even prefer having decisions made on their behalf, until their value system is violated! Then INFPs dig in their heels and
will not budge from ideals. Life with an INFP will go gently along for long periods, until an ideal is struck and violated. Then an INFP will resist and insist
."
 

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I think every situation is different. I trust my gut to tell me what is right and wrong, because there will always be factors that cannot be accounted for until you are there in the moment and making the decision. In some cases, I can almost guarantee I'll side one way or the other. I think everyone has certain human rights to live how they want as long as it does not infringe upon other people. So something like gay marriage is a black and white issue for me: They should be allowed to get married like anyone else. There is no grey area because what other people choose to do with their lives is none of my concern.

On the other hand, there are grey areas for things like killing. Killing is wrong, but I'm for the death penalty for murderers, specifically mass murderers and ones who will never be anything to humanity but wasted tax money as they sit in jail until they die. I don't see why the burden should be on everyone else to pay to keep psychos locked up so they can't kill us. So, the reasons one person is taking another person's life define a large grey area.

Most things I at least keep open the possibility of changing my mind about. Anyone who is older than 25 should have realized by now that your opinion can change as you have new life experiences, so with that in mind I can't fully commit myself to any one opinion on most subjects. But I have a pretty good idea, and I know whenever I go with my instinct about what is right or wrong, it never fails unless new information comes to light.
 

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I definitely agree that there are a lot of misconceptions about INFP "values". I mean, I can't make you a laundry list of what I value....I can throw out a few concepts, but they aren't defined like rules. If they become too specific, then they restrict you so that you'll never find a way to realize them. So they stay fluid in a sense - they are open for interpretation depending on context. I've read in profiles how Fi-doms often have constant inner turmoil - that's what happens when you're always having to gauge everything against this inner standard which is broad & vague, yet demands consistency. The values are a guide like a compass, not a black and white set of directions.

In one sense, the values are rigid, because the external is weighed against them & defined by them & not vice verse; in another sense, the values are not rigid, but require a thorough examination of the external before making judgment, because their underlying, fundamental truth is too broad to be applied the same way to every situation, so they encompass many ways to be wrong or right.

I'd compare these values to water.....water is water no matter what container it is put in, yet its shape will adapt to its container. Values stay the same, yet adapt to the situation, unless the container is simply not sufficient to hold them, and then they break through and seek a more suitable environment. Then the water is strong force imposing its will, but otherwise it seems passive & flexible.

This is where you get the tendency of INFPs to "give the benefit of the doubt" and to be very tolerant of different feelings in people as long as they don't violate a very basic moral value. It's only when Ne is not well developed that an INFP will seem "rigid" - they've lost perspective. Or in the case of there being major inconsistency of feeling in an external value- holes in that container, or a container too narrow- then the INFP will become a force to be reckoned with.

There's definitely an acute awareness that your feelings are subjective also. I think Fi-doms will often know their values are very individual because it's a matter of what is important to them, but for INFPs in particular, Ne gives a broad view of how this deep sense of right & wrong applies globally. It's an effort to understand what is important for people as whole, not to impose the INFP's will though. So there's the personal values, what's important to me as an individual (which the INFP may be more comfortable defining in concrete terms, because it's less about truth than individual needs), and then there's the moral code, which is much broader and conceptual, because now you're looking at things outside of the context of self. Again, only if the external cannot accommodate this code will it show its force.

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I really, really like this post by PeacePassion, made some time ago & so I refer to it a lot..... http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/10418-infp-code-2.html#post223152

I'm including my comments from that discussion, because they're a bit more concise than the above.... :laughing:

There is an idea of Fi being a source of significant ideas that are fundamental and broad and come from some innate, impalpable source. It's almost like a very strong inborn compass, if you want to over-simplify it. This compass can be pointing you towards what is morally right in general, right for you as an individual, and what is good for a situation. A different context can mean it may point a different way.

Jung said:
The primordial images are, of course, just as much ideas as feelings. Fundamental ideas, ideas like God, freedom, and immortality, are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas.
The ideas he mentions encompass so much....think of even the idea of "peace" (something most INFPs idealize). What does that mean? It is so broad, it has so many interpretations, yet I think an INFP recognizes when such an idea is violated very easily. To define it with words constricts the vastness of such a principle. To define it can lose too much of the meaning.
 
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