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Discussion Starter #1
I'm not trying to undermine people who put others before themselves (I am/was one of them), but..
If I really think about it, I don't think anyone can make such a choice that they don't believe will benefit them in some way.
I mean, basically everything we do, we do for our own good. And I don't mean this as a negative thing, it's just how it is.
Anyway, I've got some extreme examples, but first, what are your thoughts on this?
 

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私を愛して
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Fe is a lie!
Who would of thunk Fe be to a manipulative function...
 

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It's funny because a lot of the most "giving and selfless people" are often the most fake and narcissistic!! They do good just so they can talk about how good they are!

But I see what you're saying, when I give or donate it's usually an amount that's so small it doesn't really hurt. If I leave a super generous tip it feels good, but I feel like it does come back I also get tips (some great and some average). I feel like what comes around goes around.

If you help a friend move or give someone a ride, I suppose you could keep a mental tally of what they owe you. If you just give money to a homeless person or donate to a charity I don't really see how that could benefit someone. Unless your saying that the reward of feeling good is the only reason for doing anything. Like how giving a great Christmas gift feels better than receiving one.

I'd love to hear your examples
 

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I thought this was common knowledge anyways?
 
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Discussion Starter #5
It's funny because a lot of the most "giving and selfless people" are often the most fake and narcissistic!! They do good just so they can talk about how good they are!

But I see what you're saying, when I give or donate it's usually an amount that's so small it doesn't really hurt. If I leave a super generous tip it feels good, but I feel like it does come back I also get tips (some great and some average). I feel like what comes around goes around.

If you help a friend move or give someone a ride, I suppose you could keep a mental tally of what they owe you. If you just give money to a homeless person or donate to a charity I don't really see how that could benefit someone. Unless your saying that the reward of feeling good is the only reason for doing anything. Like how giving a great Christmas gift feels better than receiving one.

I'd love to hear your examples
Precisely.
Well, in case of helping out friends for example, I'm not expecting anything else in return. I just do that because it makes me feel good. Like what you said in your last sentence. Of course, if someone takes advantage of this, they're not my friend. Or should I say, those, who I consider my friends, are not taking advantage of this.

As for my examples, you nailed one. When I thought about "selfless actions", charity came to mind, but... When people/companies donate money with their name attached to it, it's like they're saying "Hey, look at me, what a good person/company I am!" It's basically self-advertising. When they donate anonymously, they at least don't do it because they want the whole world to know, but solely for themselves (I also think this speaks volumes about them - I mean the fact that someone is donating in order to feel good about themselves).

The extreme example would be self-sacrifice. As in dying for another human being.
I believe that there are two scenarios in this case. First, the sacrifice may truly believe that they will be rewarded for their "selfless" act after they die. Second, the sacrifice may feel that they would be unable to live with themselves if they let the other die (the first one may even seem foolish, and the second one cowardly).
Again, I'm really not trying to be negative here, I just think that's the way it is. And I'm curious about other opinions.
 

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Hmmm I think that just because altruism can provide a multitude of benefits to the giver, does not necessarily mean that these override a giver's real concern to help the other person, or that said giver is even aware of these benefits to begin with.

& Oooh I can't stand it if people show off their good deeds just to get attention (Doing it to inspire others though is a different story). Or when they continuously use not having something like a, "million dollars" as an excuse for never bothering to help others. But this doesn't mean altruistic people don't exist. It just means there are a lot of people who pretend.

I can't prove my altruism. But for me, it's a passionate feeling of genuine care for other people. I don't require an incentive to give. I don't care for personal gain, or money for the most part unless I can utilize it as an asset for someone else. If I could be anonymous every time I gave, this would happen in a heartbeat especially since I don't like attention anyway. I become non existent when I see someone else in need, like I don't feel myself anymore. I'm irrelevant.

Maybe the beauty of altruism is that you can't prove it. I just think that it's the right thing to do. How it makes me feel doesn't matter.

(I'm exhausted rn so I might edit this when I can think better)
 

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It exists but it is the most emotionally draining thing to do. There is no fulfillment in it. We can only manage a small amount of altruism before our instincts kick in and take charge so that we get things we need.

edit: watch Designated Survivor to understand what I mean. This last episode Sutherland's character said "I'm finding more and more every day that doing the right thing doesn't always feel good." That's what altruism is. It's doing the right thing, regardless of the way it makes you or others feel.
 

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I'm not trying to undermine people who put others before themselves (I am/was one of them), but..
If I really think about it, I don't think anyone can make such a choice that they don't believe will benefit them in some way.
I mean, basically everything we do, we do for our own good. And I don't mean this as a negative thing, it's just how it is.
Anyway, I've got some extreme examples, but first, what are your thoughts on this?
I'm inclined to agree. Maybe I'm jaded, or just willing to admit that my own brand of altruism is non-existent, but I won't put my feelings/thoughts/well-wishes on the line for anyone, unless I know they'd do the same for me. I have to really care about someone to do anything remotely "altruistic."
 

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If Fe is a lie than does that mean types like INFJs don't really exist? What are they then in reality if not?
No,
I meant Fe is a lie in terms of it being described as an "altruistic" function, therefore meaning people with Fe are just narcissists.
 
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There are people like this, yes.

There are also people who do genuinely care about other people more than about themselves.

There are 7.4 billion people on the planet. If only 1% of 1% of them even appear altruistic, and if only 1% of 1% of them are truly genuine, that's still 74 genuinely altruistic people on the planet.
 

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私を愛して
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There are people like this, yes.

There are also people who do genuinely care about other people more than about themselves.

There are 7.4 billion people on the planet. If only 1% of 1% of them even appear altruistic, and if only 1% of 1% of them are truly genuine, that's still 74 genuinely altruistic people on the planet.
I killed those 74 people the other night so it's down to 0 as of now.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
for me, it's a passionate feeling of genuine care for other people. I don't require an incentive to give. I don't care for personal gain, or money for the most part unless I can utilize it as an asset for someone else. If I could be anonymous every time I gave, this would happen in a heartbeat especially since I don't like attention anyway.
I'm the same way. I don't measure what good will it do to me if I help someone, because it feels good to do so. But that's the thing I know. That it feels good. When I ask the question "why do I help others when I don't gain anything from it?", the answer is "because it feels good". And that's the point I'm debating. If I didn't know in advance that a good deed will feel good, would I do it?

Maybe the beauty of altruism is that you can't prove it.
That's.. An interesting way to think about it. Thank you.
 

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I think that's an unfair way to look at it. There are people in the world who genuinely want good things to happen to others. I think that's altruism. Of course, regular folk like us aren't altruistic but I've volunteered a couple of times for a religious organization whose sole purpose was to serve others. The people who ran it were all simple people who dressed simply and they managed to raise enough money to build houses for poor people and also provide free meals to the hungry. If you ask me if this organization isn't corrupt at all, I wouldn't be able to answer that. But there are people there who gave up all their material belongings and dedicated their lives to serve others. I think you can call that altruism.
 

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It is impossible to not gain something in doing a good deed whether you like it or not;
- It could be a simple thanks.
- It could be more respect/ raises reputation.

It is possible to do something altruistic in terms of; not interested in gaining something in return i.e. not interested in raising reputation or gaining thanks.

e.g. me helping you out on something, however my concern on helping you is to actually help you and not because I want something in return and if I did then I neglect it as a "don't worry about it/ no problem." <-- that is realistic altruism.
 
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