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Discussion Starter #1
I recognise myself as an INFJ, it's the only type I've ever been from the last few years of being immersed in MBTI. I've also been official type by a practitioner. So assuming that is my correct type, I would like to hit the nail on this issue.

Within typical sources of information about INFJ, Ni, or INxJ's , it's always represented that this typing have 'aha' moments or they know things but cannot explain them.

I don't understand this, I have never understood this and sometimes I kid myself into thinking I do - but everytime I come across this notion I'm reminded that I am at a loss and it's frustrating. I have never NOT been able to explain something - I can always pick out what lead me to my conclusion, and eventually I wouldn't be able to explain any further but I can ALWAYS track back to the source.

For example, recently my friend was praising me for my ability of 'knowing' people from very little information. He used the example of a time when he gave me a few descriptions about his mum, and later on in the conversation I gave him instances of ways his mum would react to certain situations, and also descriptions of his mum (' I feel like you're mum would do this...). From this he was really surprised because from what I said I knew he's mum well. I explained to him where my assertions come from. I was able to extrapolate the information he gave me using a framework I have for understanding people, it's based on my experiences of people and it's also solidified with the help of MBTI. HOW I extrapolate, I don't know - but I can atleast track back, and explain how I got there.

What is being said by Ni seems as if the knowledge itself and all traces of it is formed COMPLETELY unbeknownst to the user. Even if that were happening, how can one not self-reflect - infact, most of the insights I come up with come from deliberate self-reflection. Sometimes I see something and I realise something, but I always follow a trail and I can always explain it relative to the stimuli. I was literally JUST watching a video about things INFJ's say, one of them being "I don't know how I know, I just know" . When I heard this I paused the video then closed the page, then proceeded to write this post. Never in my life have I said that sentence or anything synonymous.
 

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I feel you... It's just kind of the nature of the beast. Ni works behind the scenes, so to speak, not in a directly observable way, like Te. Articulating your thought processes is an intensely abstract and difficult thing, as well. Like trying to remember a dream (Although I remember most of my dreams in detail... But supposedly almost no one else can.). It took me many years to get good at it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I feel you... It's just kind of the nature of the beast. Ni works behind the scenes, so to speak, not in a directly observable way, like Te. Articulating your thought processes is an intensely abstract and difficult thing, as well. Like trying to remember a dream (Although I remember most of my dreams in detail... But supposedly almost no one else can.). It took me many years to get good at it.
Wait I think my title was misleading. What I meant was that, I don't relate to the 'aha' thing because I feel like I can always explain my insights.
 

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Yes.. you have a talent =) I can get overwhelmed by the information I store to come to a conclusion. Sometimes I find people will not be able to understand the connections either or rather disbelieve in them.
However I do have times I can explain such as when I have only a small amount of info and that it was enough. And other times, when I'm incredibly relaxed.

I think I would rarely say too 'I don't know how I know, I just know.' I would be more likely to say, 'it's obvious isn't it?'
 

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I recognise myself as an INFJ, it's the only type I've ever been from the last few years of being immersed in MBTI. I've also been official type by a practitioner. So assuming that is my correct type, I would like to hit the nail on this issue.

Within typical sources of information about INFJ, Ni, or INxJ's , it's always represented that this typing have 'aha' moments or they know things but cannot explain them.

I don't understand this, I have never understood this and sometimes I kid myself into thinking I do - but everytime I come across this notion I'm reminded that I am at a loss and it's frustrating. I have never NOT been able to explain something - I can always pick out what lead me to my conclusion, and eventually I wouldn't be able to explain any further but I can ALWAYS track back to the source.

For example, recently my friend was praising me for my ability of 'knowing' people from very little information. He used the example of a time when he gave me a few descriptions about his mum, and later on in the conversation I gave him instances of ways his mum would react to certain situations, and also descriptions of his mum (' I feel like you're mum would do this...). From this he was really surprised because from what I said I knew he's mum well. I explained to him where my assertions come from. I was able to extrapolate the information he gave me using a framework I have for understanding people, it's based on my experiences of people and it's also solidified with the help of MBTI. HOW I extrapolate, I don't know - but I can atleast track back, and explain how I got there.

What is being said by Ni seems as if the knowledge itself and all traces of it is formed COMPLETELY unbeknownst to the user. Even if that were happening, how can one not self-reflect - infact, most of the insights I come up with come from deliberate self-reflection. Sometimes I see something and I realise something, but I always follow a trail and I can always explain it relative to the stimuli. I was literally JUST watching a video about things INFJ's say, one of them being "I don't know how I know, I just know" . When I heard this I paused the video then closed the page, then proceeded to write this post. Never in my life have I said that sentence or anything synonymous.
Oh man, I'm so glad I'm not the only one. I don't think I ever have this "aha" thing simply because I'm aware of my thinking process haha. I always make sure to understand the origins of my hunches or insights (and, at the same time, I use Fe-Ti to confirm, reject or correct my insights). I think you're right, introspection is probably the reason why we can explain our conclusions.

how can one not self-reflect - infact, most of the insights I come up with come from deliberate self-reflection. Sometimes I see something and I realise something, but I always follow a trail and I can always explain it relative to the stimuli. [...] "I don't know how I know, I just know". Never in my life have I said that sentence or anything synonymous
I feel this in my bones.
 

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Sounds like you rely on frameworks you've constructed via a combination of Ni, Fe, Ti. So when you get a gut instinct, since you're familiar with your process, you can accurately trace what led you to the conclusion. I think the unconscious "a-ha" moment is typically built on theories we have floating in our heads at any one time and then extrapolating a given scenario or data point based off of frameworks, hypothesis and theories we've built over time. I've read that oftentimes INFJs won't realize why they've come to a conclusion until they've had time to reflect upon things or if a stimuli jolts their brain sometime after the original prognostication.

I think it comes down to how in-tune with your internal processes you are. I believe Malcom Gladwell wrote about it in Blink, I think he used the terms "blinking" and "thin slicing data".
 

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Wait I think my title was misleading. What I meant was that, I don't relate to the 'aha' thing because I feel like I can always explain my insights.
I can too. Easily! I was actually thinking about this the other day. Usually, ENFPs or INFPs are the one who have trouble rationalising their intuition.
 

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Scury.​
 
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Yes.. you have a talent =) I can get overwhelmed by the information I store to come to a conclusion. Sometimes I find people will not be able to understand the connections either or rather disbelieve in them.
However I do have times I can explain such as when I have only a small amount of info and that it was enough. And other times, when I'm incredibly relaxed.

I think I would rarely say too 'I don't know how I know, I just know.' I would be more likely to say, 'it's obvious isn't it?'
I don't particularly think I have a talent but even the 'it's obvious isn't it' is not relatable.
Since I'm aware of how I'm moving from A to Z, I'm aware of the effort I took - and there is no way the other guy put as much effort as I just did, so the conclusion is never obvious - as a result it's always something I feel I need to tell them(Or others in general, in my fantasies). The only thing that's quick/instant to do and requires no effort is reading emotions and figuring out what it means about the person ("Oh you're irritated......because you're...).
 
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Wait I think my title was misleading. What I meant was that, I don't relate to the 'aha' thing because I feel like I can always explain my insights.
The 'aha'-issue kinda implies you do not use it actively. Because obviously, if you do, it can't surprise you. So have you ever not used it actively, and suddenly been surprised by a conclusion you had?

Personally, I've gotten comfortable with relying on these flashes of insight. I may have a problem, and I let it rest in the back of my head, and suddenly, eventually -- days later -- I have a solution. The surprising thing is not the solution itself -- I can always tell you why it is a solution. The surprising thing is timing. I couldn't tell you exactly why I thought of this solution just now.

And perhaps, added to that, the imperative quality. There's a really strong sense of obvious right attached to it, which you might consider strange, because then why didn't you think of it before? :)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The 'aha'-issue kinda implies you do not use it actively. Because obviously, if you do, it can't surprise you.
This makes sense, the issue is that the consensus seems as though Ni doms are infact having these surprises. So it throws the whole 'active' thing under the water.

So have you ever not used it actively, and suddenly been surprised by a conclusion you had?
To answer your question, no I have never been 'surprised'.



Personally, I've gotten comfortable with relying on these flashes of insight. I may have a problem, and I let it rest in the back of my head, and suddenly, eventually -- days later -- I have a solution. The surprising thing is not the solution itself -- I can always tell you why it is a solution. The surprising thing is timing. I couldn't tell you exactly why I thought of this solution just now.
I relate and agree with most of what you said, except for the days later comment. I never quite let things rest. Even if I'm not actively thinking to solve the problem, I'm always aware that it IS a problem, and it's much like solving a puzzle - I'm jumbling things together and the picture is forming. There is always a sense of direction.

And perhaps, added to that, the imperative quality. There's a really strong sense of obvious right attached to it, which you might consider strange, because then why didn't you think of it before? :)
There is that sense of obviousness to it, but not around the conclusion itself - but the leaps you had to take in between, the conclusion itself was a well crafted picture.
 
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Pls, you do it all the time when we speak to each other
What do you mean?

I don't think so, our conversations normally consist of well thought out accounts. If I've ever said something without explaining, it's not because I can't but I suppose I feel like I don't need to 'break' it down to for you to understand - but it never comes from 'nowhere'.
 

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@Baphomet: Heh, well. I naturally can't say how it should be for you -- that 'aha' thing might really be somewhat off, as far as the descriptions go. I actually wondered this before, exactly because of the active-use argument. I don't really have control over it, but you'd think INxJs would. The rest sounds like it can be comfortably explained by primary vs. tertiary, though.

I mostly use it in writing, and true, it's like a puzzle -- I like my stories to have a logically cohesive structure, which means my plot is in position A, I want to get it to position B, and there is no obvious way to get there that I like. Much like two pieces of an actual jigsaw puzzle that just don't fit together. And so I leave it be, because eventually, something will happen, as if you're suddenly looking at the puzzle pieces from another angle, and from that angle, they fit together in an excellent way.

So the sense of direction is indeed lacking for me. Apart from knowing, because of previous experience, that something will happen, I couldn't tell you what or where. I used to be really suspicious of it, because it doesn't make a ton of sense, lol XD
 

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@Baphomet interesting thread.

Is it more a matter tho that in retrospect you figure out how you got to a conclusion or are you consciously aware of the train of though/logic as it's leading you to a conclusion.

I would say for myself (ENTP - and perhaps a source of comparison for yourself) the thought process, train of logic is something that is very extroverted and conscious it's not at all a retroactive thing. When I make a conclusion there's usually a whole conversation/monologue leading up to it.

I would also agree w/ the comment made, that the lack of explanation thing may be more an ENFP or INFP Ne-Fi thing. I feel like I find ENFP and INFP usually don't have explanation or are not very good at articulating how they came up with ideas. Whereas when I talk to INFJs it does feel like I'm talking w/ another Ti user (Ti is INFJs 3rd function) ..even though the content of their beliefs may be more Fe influenced and they can be more touchy and SJWs... in conversation it does feel like I'm talking to another ENTP, there's lots of logic.


..so I wouldn't say what you're describing discounts you as an INFJ. In fact perhaps you're more accurately INFJ and the people who talk about lack of explanation are really mistyped ENFPs and INFPs or such.

Also perhaps no one really fits exactly into any type and so there's always going to variability and blurred lines among types.
 

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@Baphomet interesting thread.

Is it more a matter tho that in retrospect you figure out how you got to a conclusion or are you consciously aware of the train of though/logic as it's leading you to a conclusion.
I would say both occurs but a good way to explain it would be the following: Overall I am going from A to Z; I go from A to D without knowing it's occurence, however once I arrive at D (sort of like a checkpoint) I can put the pieces together in retrospect, then I moved forward from D again. So it's sort of like leaps. As a whole, I am aware of the 'general' train of thought.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with neuroscience but think of it like saltatory conduction in axons: "Action potentials travelling down the axon "jump" from node to node. This is called saltatory conduction which means "to leap."



I would say for myself (ENTP - and perhaps a source of comparison for yourself) the thought process, train of logic is something that is very extroverted and conscious it's not at all a retroactive thing. When I make a conclusion there's usually a whole conversation/monologue leading up to it.

I would also agree w/ the comment made, that the lack of explanation thing may be more an ENFP or INFP Ne-Fi thing. I feel like I find ENFP and INFP usually don't have explanation or are not very good at articulating how they came up with ideas. Whereas when I talk to INFJs it does feel like I'm talking w/ another Ti user (Ti is INFJs 3rd function) ..even though the content of their beliefs may be more Fe influenced and they can be more touchy and SJWs... in conversation it does feel like I'm talking to another ENTP, there's lots of logic.


..so I wouldn't say what you're describing discounts you as an INFJ. In fact perhaps you're more accurately INFJ and the people who talk about lack of explanation are really mistyped ENFPs and INFPs or such.

Also perhaps no one really fits exactly into any type and so there's always going to variability and blurred lines among types.
Perhaps you're right - maybe I should pay no mind to it whenever I hear descriptions such as what I'm attempting to clarify. The inner frustration of inconsistency eats at me.
 

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It's not always clearcut for everyone. Some are prone to digging deeper into their type than others. It can also depend on the kind of day someone is having, what type they feel like. While I feel like INFJ is a fitting type for me, there are still times when I question my type especially when I have un-INFJish moments. With there being 16 types, sometimes other descriptions have fit me pretty well so that doesn't make it any easier. Everyone has different experiences. Sometimes, people who do have a good grip on their type don't seem to understand when I say I am an INFJ but then give a list of the other types I could be. People are complex and can't always be fit into perfect boxes.
 
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