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What signal are you two giving by remaining uncommitted but demanding commitment?
Like I said. Unspoken social contract, wherein polygamy is not the norm and never has been.

Getting close to someone for months and then doing an "okay byeeeeeee" is not okay and never will be, no matter how much the hip, cool, modern, so-called "sexual liberation" movement claims that it is.
 

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Seems like she's the perfect, committed, loving girlfriend now.

It's weird that despite all the shit she did, some things I've seen from her or heard about her since we broke up that I wouldn't want in a girlfriend, I still see her completely committed and completely in love with this guy and it bothers me I couldn't get that from her.
That might be a really useful observation. Could it be that you weren't fulfilling all of your obligations?
 

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Not sure I know what you mean. Could you explain?
Sorry about that. I skipped a crucial word.

What I mean is, were you providing her with the necessities. Did you give her a safe place to stay, money for bills, groceries and shopping. Were you taking care of her sexual needs. If someone broke into your house, did she feel confident in your ability and willingness to defend her. That kind of thing.
 

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Like I said. Unspoken social contract, wherein polygamy is not the norm and never has been.
Too funny how you use polygamy where it's normally only applied in long-term agreed upon marriages and relationships. There's no social contract relative to the pre-relationship phase. Also, how did it work out for you, believing this?

Getting close to someone for months and then doing an "okay byeeeeeee" is not okay and never will be, no matter how much the hip, cool, modern, so-called "sexual liberation" movement claims that it is.
It's not the end of the world if someone bails in the non-committed dating phase. It happens all the time. The concept of dating is getting to know someone to some extent and to bail, if incompatibilities rear their heads. From there if they get along, people enter agreed upon committed relationships and get to know each other on a deeper level. And from there, if they get along, they usually move in together or get married, of which all require agreed upon communications. At any point, people can and do bail.

From the sounds of it, you felt more for her than she felt for you. And that understandably hurts. On the other hand, if your feelings were so deep, you should have committed and asked for commitment so there wouldn't be misunderstandings like this. All your feelings of being betrayed weren't reasonable since your expectations were unreasonable.
 

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It's not the end of the world if someone bails in the non-committed dating phase.
It sounds like you think the non-committed dating phase is somehow eternal until someone signs, stamps and seals an official "we are now an item" certificate.

We clearly have very different ideas about what constitutes normal human relations. Either that, or you're deliberately misunderstanding the OP's situation, and/or fabricating it into your own version of events wherein you would be A-Okay with how it all turned out because hey it was always non-committed so just get over it and move on.
 

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It sounds like you think the non-committed dating phase is somehow eternal until someone signs, stamps and seals an official "we are now an item" certificate.
Close enough, although a simple conversation would be sufficient. It saves people from unnecessary grief from unreasonable expectations.

We clearly have very different ideas about what constitutes normal human relations. Either that, or you're deliberately misunderstanding the OP's situation, and/or fabricating it into your own version of events wherein you would be A-Okay with how it all turned out because hey it was always non-committed so just get over it and move on.
If you care about someone deeply, not only should you ask for commitment, ensure that you too give commitment. Otherwise, the signal you're giving is that you're insufficiently invested to commit. Most women have been led down that path at least once so we've learned not to expect commitment until the guy bellies up the bar and commits.
 

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From the sounds of it, you felt more for her than she felt for you. And that understandably hurts. On the other hand, if your feelings were so deep, you should have committed and asked for commitment so there wouldn't be misunderstandings like this. All your feelings of being betrayed weren't reasonable since your expectations were unreasonable.
See this just shows how you're painting liberally over everything with your own version of events.

In my case it wasn't a simple "oh we weren't committed and I'm moving on now".

She had fallen hard for me and even said she was moments away from writing out a big "I love you" message at a point where we had to be apart for a while. It wasn't just some fleeting thing where I got all loved up while she had other ideas. We were both close, and cautiously growing together, etc etc as is normal in any relationship. The problem was we had to spent a few months apart so we decided to wait before making anything official.

The thing that changed was her "best friend" who spent every day by her side and won her over while I wasn't around.

It wasn't a case of non-committal. It was a case of floosy dumb little girl fantasy, getting swept up when something more convenient came along and she knows she did wrong. A year later she messaged to apologise deeply for what she did to me. Obviously it was too late by then but she knew as well as I always did that she had fucked around with what was obviously an "unspoken social contract" like I alluded to before. You don't just undo human relationships by uttering the phrase "it was non-committed".

To be honest I don't even know what the big issue is here. When people get together it's astoundingly obvious to me that some element of commitment is quickly implied just by gauging how long the two of you have been together. A more pertinent requirement, in my opinion, would be for it to be stated clearly that one person has a desire for non-commitment, otherwise it is blindingly obvious to all but the coldest heart that an emotional connection will be forged.
 

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Why did you decide to wait before making things official?
Don't know, don't remember and don't care, it was years ago and I'm not here to be scrutinsed or criticised for romantic decisions that I have long since moved on from. This thread isn't about me.
 

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Don't know, don't remember and don't care, it was years ago and I'm not here to be scrutinsed or criticised for romantic decisions that I have long since moved on from. This thread isn't about me.
It matters since leaving the door open...leaves the door open for insecurities and uncertainties to walk in and take a seat at the table. That's likely the leverage point that this friend used and without certainty, she allowed him/her in.

Also, your perspective is coming from your experience where my perspective is coming from my experiences in dating. Conceptually, we all learn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
That might be a really useful observation. Could it be that you weren't fulfilling all of your obligations?
Sorry about that. I skipped a crucial word.

What I mean is, were you providing her with the necessities. Did you give her a safe place to stay, money for bills, groceries and shopping. Were you taking care of her sexual needs. If someone broke into your house, did she feel confident in your ability and willingness to defend her. That kind of thing.
Not sure I understand the connection between this and what it was in response to. I was saying that even though she did some terrible things in relation to me, and since then I've heard about and seen her do things I would not want my girlfriend to be doing, it bothers me (somewhat breaks my heart) that I didn't get the commitment and effort and love (despite all of her words and actions before the sudden break ups) and that this guy is getting all of that.

To answer your question, no I wasn't providing her anything substantial. I paid for drinks and dates and experiences. Sexually, I'm very certain I was taking care of her needs there. In terms of security, I think she knew I would protect her.

Too funny how you use polygamy where it's normally only applied in long-term agreed upon marriages and relationships. There's no social contract relative to the pre-relationship phase. Also, how did it work out for you, believing this?

It's not the end of the world if someone bails in the non-committed dating phase. It happens all the time. The concept of dating is getting to know someone to some extent and to bail, if incompatibilities rear their heads. From there if they get along, people enter agreed upon committed relationships and get to know each other on a deeper level. And from there, if they get along, they usually move in together or get married, of which all require agreed upon communications. At any point, people can and do bail.

From the sounds of it, you felt more for her than she felt for you. And that understandably hurts. On the other hand, if your feelings were so deep, you should have committed and asked for commitment so there wouldn't be misunderstandings like this. All your feelings of being betrayed weren't reasonable since your expectations were unreasonable.
Not sure if you're talking to me here or not but I'll respond all the same.

I think there's a huge difference in a casual dating situation and one that's more serious but maybe not committed yet. I've experienced both. And typically, it's pretty clear what the vibe is without outright stating it. When things are casual, you see each other once a week or every other week, no regular plans. Communication over text is sparingly. There's no expectations except to respect each other and have fun together. When that ends, no big deal. But just because you haven't both committed to each other, if you're seeing somebody 3-4 times a week, talking all day every day, exchanging gifts, sharing things about your feelings for each other, than that is a little more serious than a casual situation and should be treated accordingly.

In my situation, I won't say she cheated because slapping that term on it people get upset because we never had the big conversation. But if a week before she's laying in my arms telling me it's the happiest she's been in such. a long time and that she's not going to fuck me over and that she's all mine, I don't think it's the wildest expectation to have that she wouldn't go and sleep with somebody else. To add to that, while she was on this trip that she slept with this guy on, she was texting me every day, wishing me sweet dreams every night. Even the night she slept with him. So either right before or right after she slept with this guy, she texted me sweet dreams. And the next day, texted me saying how she's excited to come home and see me. Maybe not cheating, but definitely behind my back and not right.

I didn't commit to her because we had only been together a few months at the time, I knew she was going away and I was going away right after she returned and based on the things she was saying and the way she was acting, I didn't really think I needed to bring it up as she seemed so into me and figured she would bring it up pretty soon.
 

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Not sure if you're talking to me here or not but I'll respond all the same.

I think there's a huge difference in a casual dating situation and one that's more serious but maybe not committed yet. I've experienced both. And typically, it's pretty clear what the vibe is without outright stating it. When things are casual, you see each other once a week or every other week, no regular plans. Communication over text is sparingly. There's no expectations except to respect each other and have fun together. When that ends, no big deal. But just because you haven't both committed to each other, if you're seeing somebody 3-4 times a week, talking all day every day, exchanging gifts, sharing things about your feelings for each other, than that is a little more serious than a casual situation and should be treated accordingly.

In my situation, I won't say she cheated because slapping that term on it people get upset because we never had the big conversation. But if a week before she's laying in my arms telling me it's the happiest she's been in such. a long time and that she's not going to fuck me over and that she's all mine, I don't think it's the wildest expectation to have that she wouldn't go and sleep with somebody else. To add to that, while she was on this trip that she slept with this guy on, she was texting me every day, wishing me sweet dreams every night. Even the night she slept with him. So either right before or right after she slept with this guy, she texted me sweet dreams. And the next day, texted me saying how she's excited to come home and see me. Maybe not cheating, but definitely behind my back and not right.

I didn't commit to her because we had only been together a few months at the time, I knew she was going away and I was going away right after she returned and based on the things she was saying and the way she was acting, I didn't really think I needed to bring it up as she seemed so into me and figured she would bring it up pretty soon.
From the sounds of it, you and Hal are similar. Both of you waited to commit for no discernible reason and both of you lost out. On the other hand, it's likely best that this happened, considering the disparity of expectations. Perhaps the two of you will eventually find partners who are willing to commit without needing your commitment.
 

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From the sounds of it, you and Hal are similar. Both of you waited to commit for no discernible reason and both of you lost out. On the other hand, it's likely best that this happened, considering the disparity of expectations. Perhaps the two of you will eventually find partners who are willing to commit without needing your commitment.
Nowhere is it stated that they've slept around with other women while being under the unspoken agreement of exclusivity, and in @L19 s case it was stated that there was a spoken exclusivity, a promise, if you will. that romise was ignored by the person who uttered it a week later from what I understand, yet, it's HIS fault?
 

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Nowhere is it stated that they've slept around with other women while being under the unspoken agreement of exclusivity, and in @L19 s case it was stated that there was a spoken exclusivity, a promise, if you will. that romise was ignored by the person who uttered it a week later from what I understand, yet, it's HIS fault?
Nowhere did I state that they've slept around. Also, L19 and Hal have clearly stated that they wanted to wait before committing and yet, had unspoken expectations of commitment from the women they were dating. You can't tie someone down without committing to same. That's not only entitled thinking, it also has the potential to get people screwed. Analogous, someone says they love you and you say, let's wait. Umm...what could possibly go wrong, especially since emotions aren't static?
 

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Not sure I understand the connection between this and what it was in response to. I was saying that even though she did some terrible things in relation to me, and since then I've heard about and seen her do things I would not want my girlfriend to be doing, it bothers me (somewhat breaks my heart) that I didn't get the commitment and effort and love (despite all of her words and actions before the sudden break ups) and that this guy is getting all of that.

To answer your question, no I wasn't providing her anything substantial. I paid for drinks and dates and experiences. Sexually, I'm very certain I was taking care of her needs there. In terms of security, I think she knew I would protect her.



Not sure if you're talking to me here or not but I'll respond all the same.

I think there's a huge difference in a casual dating situation and one that's more serious but maybe not committed yet. I've experienced both. And typically, it's pretty clear what the vibe is without outright stating it. When things are casual, you see each other once a week or every other week, no regular plans. Communication over text is sparingly. There's no expectations except to respect each other and have fun together. When that ends, no big deal. But just because you haven't both committed to each other, if you're seeing somebody 3-4 times a week, talking all day every day, exchanging gifts, sharing things about your feelings for each other, than that is a little more serious than a casual situation and should be treated accordingly.

In my situation, I won't say she cheated because slapping that term on it people get upset because we never had the big conversation. But if a week before she's laying in my arms telling me it's the happiest she's been in such. a long time and that she's not going to fuck me over and that she's all mine, I don't think it's the wildest expectation to have that she wouldn't go and sleep with somebody else. To add to that, while she was on this trip that she slept with this guy on, she was texting me every day, wishing me sweet dreams every night. Even the night she slept with him. So either right before or right after she slept with this guy, she texted me sweet dreams. And the next day, texted me saying how she's excited to come home and see me. Maybe not cheating, but definitely behind my back and not right.

I didn't commit to her because we had only been together a few months at the time, I knew she was going away and I was going away right after she returned and based on the things she was saying and the way she was acting, I didn't really think I needed to bring it up as she seemed so into me and figured she would bring it up pretty soon.
Well, I'm trying to help you figure out why she's giving this guy more than she was willing to give you. In my experience, no matter how much a woman loves you, generally speaking, she will have a hard time respecting you if you are not providing for at least her basic necessities. You can always run game and manipulate, but you don't sound like a piece of shit to me.

What about the other guy? Is he providing for her? If he is, I would guess she really was into you but didn't want to miss out on the chance to "upgrade". I've seen this happen to a lot of guys.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Well, I'm trying to help you figure out why she's giving this guy more than she was willing to give you. In my experience, no matter how much a woman loves you, generally speaking, she will have a hard time respecting you if you are not providing for at least her basic necessities. You can always run game and manipulate, but you don't sound like a piece of shit to me.

What about the other guy? Is he providing for her? If he is, I would guess she really was into you but didn't want to miss out on the chance to "upgrade". I've seen this happen to a lot of guys.
I would say it was too early to be providing in those ways. But it was certainly clear that I could provide and would take care of her.

I paid for all of our dates, drinks, dinners, lunches, concert/sport tickets. Would do her a favor if she asked and I was able to.

I never manipulated her at all. I always tried to treat her as good as I possibly could.

The new guy certainly provides an exciting lifestyle. He's somewhat of a gypsy in the sense that he's always on the move, his work is seasonal in vacation destinations so now she gets to join that. In terms of being able to provide beyond that, doubt he makes much financially.
 

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@L19 So she wasn't treating what you had between you two too seriously and decided to go for a more fun ride.. until that season ends and she still probably sees you as an open option to go back to once that's finished. Did you express your will to make things exclusive between you two or did you leave her hanging by not committing like @mia-me is proposing?
 

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I can see why people don't want to explain or talk about what seems obvious, but I think it's really important if you're trying to establish a committed relationship to be clear and explicit.

Because that is what it is. It's a contract you are both agreeing to.

I don't get how people can have sex and yet feel it's too intimate to talk about what they are both interested in, what their boundaries are, relationship-wise and monogamy wise.

So I'm not trying to chastise, as I can see why you'd want to assume things, but I don't anyone should rely on assumptions. There needs to be an avenue for clear communication. Extremely clear.

If the other person's not interested in talking about things like that it'd probably mean they are incompatible (to me) or they are not interested in a commitment.

She could just have felt she had more chemistry with him though--agonizing over her decision probably isn't going to make it clearer why she did it. I think you should try to learn from what you may have done wrong or improved and then move on. People choose romantic partners for mysterious reasons.
 
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