Okay, that should've gotten people's attention. Of course I enjoy being convinced by a good and reasoned argument. What I mean in this case is people throwing in a (to me, random or irrelevant) fact and then hoping you'll change your mind.
Can anyone shed some light on that dynamic?
(Husband (don't know type, something with a strong Te and probably some Si/Ne, but neither ESTJ nor ISTJ profiles sound right - tested ENTJ once but doesn't resonate with Ni at all) and I (INFJ) are making list of stuff to take on motorcycle holiday next week.)
Me: I have a mind to take the chain lube. We'll be driving over 1000 km, and they say to lube the chain every 500 or so. If the can won't fit in the luggage, I don't mind leaving it at home, but put it on the list for now, OK?
Husband: Your motorcycle won't break down if you don't oil it during the holiday.
Me: So you want me to leave it at home?
Husband: Actually, yes.
Or:
(I'm waiting for the dishwasher to finish before going to bed.)
Husband: Do you want to wait up for the dishwasher?
Me: Yes. I want to give it 10 more minutes.
Husband: It can take a long time, you know!
Me: So you want me to not wait and come to bed with you?
Husband: Actually, yes.
This just drives me batty. I know my 'So you want me to X?' response isn't the most elegant ever, but it's the best I can manage given what's really going through my head.
("Aargh, if you want something ASK IT. Coward! I'm happy to give up something I want if that makes you happy, but at least give me the chance to feel good about myself doing so!")
("So not only do you want me to drop whatever I want in favour of what YOU want, you want me to decide it on my own so you don't have to feel 'bad' for keeping me from something I want?")
("I am AWARE of your random fact, mister! And you know what? It's random and irrelevant and I've thought about the weight I need to give it already! So stuff it.")
("How about you listen to what I want and WHY I WANT IT, and then try to persuade me using arguments that actually matter instead of just dropping in something random and wanting me to be all magically swayed by it.")
("Aargh! You're distracting me with a fact that's not even relevant to YOU! You don't care what I take with me on holiday! I have 'books and notepads' on the list, for crying out loud! Things that are both useless to you and likely to lead to me not paying you attention all the time. And you believe in religiously oiling your chain even though you have an automatic chain lubricator on your bike! So it's probably something about not wanting to risk the oil can to leak all over our luggage. Which is a GREAT reason! But you don't say THAT now, do you?")
("Sure, that's a really nice frame job you're attempting there. You're casting me as 'the one who wants something' and yourself as 'the voice of reason' while deftly sidestepping the facts that you also want something and that I also have logical reasons. I'm not buying it, m'dear.")
I know that the things going through my head are my own interpretation and not at all charitable. (I have something of a hair trigger when it comes to people telling me I'm not allowed to want what I want. Bad parents.
My annoyance is out of proportion because of that, and also because after 12 years of us being together I still haven't been able to get my husband to understand that I really want him to not assume about what my reasons are, because he usually gets it wrong.) If you think 'Husband's' responses in the above dialogue are perfectly reasonable, could you describe what your thought process is?
(I'm looking for more 'calm yourself down, March!' arguments in my arsenal, and my Ni thrives on alternative perspectives to try on for size.)
He says his reasoning is something like:
" 1) Ah, she wants to bring the chain lube. 2) That HAS to be because she's afraid something bad will happen! 3) I don't want her to bring the chain lube, 4) so if I put her at ease, she'll no longer want to so something I don't like."
1) Sure.
2) You can't say that, really. Doesn't follow at all. Could be this reason, could be any other reason, and unless you KNOW, it's wise not to assume a) that there's only one reason and b) that just happens to be the first reason that pops into YOUR head.
3) That's fine. People want things all the time. No problem. And I like giving him what he wants.
4) Here's where I go haywire. The combination of not being direct about his wants AND trying to manipulate me based on crappy, superficial and WRONG information is just toxic to my poor brain cells. (Especially because occasionally I'll tell him off for assuming there's only one reason and he'll retort "But you didn't tell me ALL your reasons, now did you! How am I supposed to know?" even when I haven't even started telling him any of my reasons.)
So, what do you think is going on here?
His Te vs my Ti? I have a lovely little interconnected network of reasons, and he sees one superficial problem and 'solves' it and thinks it should do the trick? (Which is sometimes true, but he often doesn't investigate the problem enough to get at the superficial problem that's actually holding me back.)
My annoyance with his lack of Fe? I would prefer it if he argued from our relationship or his own wants and needs. "I just really want you to come to bed with me. Could you do the dishwasher trick tomorrow?" "Aww, sure." Instead it's 'not about feelings, but about logic!' which I'd accept if he actually gave me a logical story, but he doesn't.
Some other function-related clash?
Some stupid but not function-related habit?
It seems so natural to him that I can't imagine it's not a personality type thing.
We're both loving, generous and reasonably intelligent people, and it's not about either of us not wanting the other to be happy. It's just that the way the other tries to make us happy sometimes feels really depressing.
Can anyone shed some light on that dynamic?
(Husband (don't know type, something with a strong Te and probably some Si/Ne, but neither ESTJ nor ISTJ profiles sound right - tested ENTJ once but doesn't resonate with Ni at all) and I (INFJ) are making list of stuff to take on motorcycle holiday next week.)
Me: I have a mind to take the chain lube. We'll be driving over 1000 km, and they say to lube the chain every 500 or so. If the can won't fit in the luggage, I don't mind leaving it at home, but put it on the list for now, OK?
Husband: Your motorcycle won't break down if you don't oil it during the holiday.
Me: So you want me to leave it at home?
Husband: Actually, yes.
Or:
(I'm waiting for the dishwasher to finish before going to bed.)
Husband: Do you want to wait up for the dishwasher?
Me: Yes. I want to give it 10 more minutes.
Husband: It can take a long time, you know!
Me: So you want me to not wait and come to bed with you?
Husband: Actually, yes.
This just drives me batty. I know my 'So you want me to X?' response isn't the most elegant ever, but it's the best I can manage given what's really going through my head.
("Aargh, if you want something ASK IT. Coward! I'm happy to give up something I want if that makes you happy, but at least give me the chance to feel good about myself doing so!")
("So not only do you want me to drop whatever I want in favour of what YOU want, you want me to decide it on my own so you don't have to feel 'bad' for keeping me from something I want?")
("I am AWARE of your random fact, mister! And you know what? It's random and irrelevant and I've thought about the weight I need to give it already! So stuff it.")
("How about you listen to what I want and WHY I WANT IT, and then try to persuade me using arguments that actually matter instead of just dropping in something random and wanting me to be all magically swayed by it.")
("Aargh! You're distracting me with a fact that's not even relevant to YOU! You don't care what I take with me on holiday! I have 'books and notepads' on the list, for crying out loud! Things that are both useless to you and likely to lead to me not paying you attention all the time. And you believe in religiously oiling your chain even though you have an automatic chain lubricator on your bike! So it's probably something about not wanting to risk the oil can to leak all over our luggage. Which is a GREAT reason! But you don't say THAT now, do you?")
("Sure, that's a really nice frame job you're attempting there. You're casting me as 'the one who wants something' and yourself as 'the voice of reason' while deftly sidestepping the facts that you also want something and that I also have logical reasons. I'm not buying it, m'dear.")
I know that the things going through my head are my own interpretation and not at all charitable. (I have something of a hair trigger when it comes to people telling me I'm not allowed to want what I want. Bad parents.
(I'm looking for more 'calm yourself down, March!' arguments in my arsenal, and my Ni thrives on alternative perspectives to try on for size.)
He says his reasoning is something like:
" 1) Ah, she wants to bring the chain lube. 2) That HAS to be because she's afraid something bad will happen! 3) I don't want her to bring the chain lube, 4) so if I put her at ease, she'll no longer want to so something I don't like."
1) Sure.
2) You can't say that, really. Doesn't follow at all. Could be this reason, could be any other reason, and unless you KNOW, it's wise not to assume a) that there's only one reason and b) that just happens to be the first reason that pops into YOUR head.
3) That's fine. People want things all the time. No problem. And I like giving him what he wants.
4) Here's where I go haywire. The combination of not being direct about his wants AND trying to manipulate me based on crappy, superficial and WRONG information is just toxic to my poor brain cells. (Especially because occasionally I'll tell him off for assuming there's only one reason and he'll retort "But you didn't tell me ALL your reasons, now did you! How am I supposed to know?" even when I haven't even started telling him any of my reasons.)
So, what do you think is going on here?
His Te vs my Ti? I have a lovely little interconnected network of reasons, and he sees one superficial problem and 'solves' it and thinks it should do the trick? (Which is sometimes true, but he often doesn't investigate the problem enough to get at the superficial problem that's actually holding me back.)
My annoyance with his lack of Fe? I would prefer it if he argued from our relationship or his own wants and needs. "I just really want you to come to bed with me. Could you do the dishwasher trick tomorrow?" "Aww, sure." Instead it's 'not about feelings, but about logic!' which I'd accept if he actually gave me a logical story, but he doesn't.
Some other function-related clash?
Some stupid but not function-related habit?
It seems so natural to him that I can't imagine it's not a personality type thing.
We're both loving, generous and reasonably intelligent people, and it's not about either of us not wanting the other to be happy. It's just that the way the other tries to make us happy sometimes feels really depressing.