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Discussion Starter #1
This goes along with my aversion to grouping. What do the rest of you INFPs think/feel about this?

I am not saying that I am opposed to harmony or keeping the peace - or even sucking it up and doing something you don't want to do at times for the good of the group (I usually do)... but, I don't know. I feel a little bristle inside. It's like making myself superficial or something. Is this my Fi talking?

Like for instance, people I know always want to do group gifts. WE should get Sally a gift. Often appropriate, but often seems impersonal to me. Sometimes I don't want to be a part of it (never mind the fact that I feel pressure to get it done myself since I am the gap filler). What would I prefer? Well, I think I would prefer someone to say, "I got Sally a gift, and I was thinking maybe we could give it as a group. What do you think?" Or, better yet, giving her a gift on their own! Take responsibility for your own thing!

I don't know. Is it that I am seeing the WE as being controlling?

Or, just this weekend. My ISTP husband, "WE should do a deep house clean." Is it that I am totally unwilling to clean the house? NO! I just want him to say, "I am going to do a deep house clean." Or, better yet, just do it. I just can't imagine ever saying that to him. If it bothered me, I would just do it.

What is going on here with me internally? Why is it so offensive to me? WHAT IS MY PROBLEM? Lol.
 

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Absolutely hate it.
Makes me angry just to think about it aaaagghhh.

Like when my mom used to say to me growing up "We should go on a diet!" and I was like Uh??? ...
I also had friends who would say "We should do X activity on fridays! Let's do it!" and I was like Eeehhh???? Uuuhhhh...
Or guys I dated who would say "We should join X group and do X thing, I'm going to set it all up, I'm so excited!" and I was like Whaaaaat? How about you ask me if I want to do that...
Damn, people don't ask anything! Makes me want to stab them.
I always refused to go along with their excitedness, and they were shocked "What do you mean "no"? O_O" like they can't comprehend that their decision for "the good of the group" is flawed because it is not good for me.
I had a friend who one day texted me "We should start an online magazine and write book reviews!" and I thought "I don't want to co-own a magazine, I want to fully-own my own publishings" but I didn't think she would do anything with it because she never asked me if I wanted to pursue this, she just threw the statement on th etable, and I can't work with such a statement, there is no meat in it for me. Next thing I know she's created the magazine and put me as co-founder and texted me "So when's your first piece coming?" and I was like "Uh? I'm not going to be a part of this thing. You never asked me what I wanted" and she was offended and didn't speak to me for a year. She told a third party that she couldn't understand why I was publishing my writings on a weekly basis in a certain platform (fully owned by me) but I wouldn't write for a co-owned thing. Well because I just didnd't want to! And if she had asked to have a proper conversation about it instead of buying a domain without saying a word, she would've saved herself a lot of headaches. Gods help me please, fill my heart with patience for all these stupid people please, amen. Ugh.

I would never in a million years tell someone "WE should do this", that is not the wording I would use. And maybe some people will say I'm picky with the phrasing of things, but the phrasing of things can tell a lot about a person's eagerness to control someone else, and how much they value your free will. If I wanted to do something with someone else, I would ask, and the wording would be "I would really like to do X activity, go to X place, etc. with you, but only if you want, what do you think?" and pass the ball to their court. I don't make stories in my head or decisions on behalf of other people. I don't assume that other people want to do stuff. Or do stuff with me.

Is it that I am seeing the WE as being controlling?
I certainly see it that way.
Of course the people who do that kind of thing will tell you "What? Nooooo I'm not controlling". But they can say whatever, to me they are. And I run away from such people. The surest way to get me to refuse to do something that I want to do with someone, is to make the decision for me instead of asking.

Like for instance, people I know always want to do group gifts. WE should get Sally a gift.
nononono what torture is this. I hate that so much. And I haaaaate the Secret Santa thing. People at work are always "We should do secret santa!" and they go and prepare the little papers and grab a pen, and I'm like Hello? How rude can you be? First you have to ask if I want to do it!
Yes, I like your preferred option, twirler. I would also appreciate that the person says "Hey I've been thinking that if you want we could give X a gift. But what do you think? What do you want to do?"

My ISTP husband, "WE should do a deep house clean."
Ooohhh that is the surest way to get me to not move a finger. Bad wording.

I just want him to say, "I am going to do a deep house clean." Or, better yet, just do it. I just can't imagine ever saying that to him.
Exactly!!!
 

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Yea I think it's a controlling thing, and I think you might not ever say that to people because you would never want to impose your desire on people by saying they SHOULD do anything. Problem is everyone doesn't see the world as a place where people get to have their privacy and do what they want with it.

I always want to fight back when someone says "Let's ___" and it sounds like they aren't giving me a choice. Commands piss me off to no end because it always feels like, "Who are you to tell another living breathing human being with their own brain what to do." Like we don't have our own brain or something , and can't reason things for ourselves so we need to be told what to do like some animal. Or when people say "Do___." instead of "Can you do ______?" Ugh, f off! I have a hard time telling people what to do but when people find it so easy to tell me what to do it makes me think they don't have any respect for me as a person or I must look like someone who can be pushed around. I hate it. And some people who say "We should do____." If you made a suggestion to them they WOULDN'T TAKE IT. NO! I can't stand that one-sided unfairness. People ask you to do things for/with them that they wouldn't dare agree to if YOU asked THEM. "Let me borrow a dollar." "Ok." Vice versa "Let me borrow a dollar." "No man! Don't you got money?!". WTF!!!!!!! SRSLY?!!!!! I could punch someone in the mouth in those moments if I lacked more morality lol.

That force people try to impose just goes against Fi, they try to rile you up for their cause but you want to cling to the ground and extremely hard.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
@entheos @Lord Pixel

Bwahaha. Sorry, but your examples are so funny and true. Why do people assume we will be on the same page? WHY.

Yes, I think of it as a control statement too. Nevertheless, my ISTP swears he is not being controlling and in fact resists control himself, which is why it is so baffling to me. Is it the Fe in him? I really don’t know, but I have made it crystal clear that I do not like it, and it isn’t effective. He keeps saying YOU KNOW how I am (implying I know his intentions are pure… ARE THEY?! Haha), but I think of it as sort of taking advantage – this being a huge overstatement of course (I know he’s the best), but it’s kind of disrespectful, IMO!

I agree. Phrasing - picky tricky little suckers, but it makes the biggest difference to me for whatever reason. Honestly, I guess I have a problem with being asked to do stuff anyway. It is like a huge thing for me to be asked. YET, I am extremely sensitive when I ask someone else to do something.

Do you guys ever feel guilty for not being a “team player” though? I mean, this is why I usually end up going along with it though I detest. I feel like no one understands why I would not want to do something, and like I’m a bad guy for saying “No.” Since this happens all of the time, there can’t be that many of us out there that feel this way. Haha.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Also, it's not like I don't want to do a deep clean of the house. I just want to do it when I want to do and I want to be asked properly he wants help. The argument went like, "THIS IS YOUR THING! You are inspired! So YOU should do it." Lol. We both usually run on this flexible P thing, so when he gets on some inspired kick of "WE should exercise more," etc., it throws me off.
 
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Do you guys ever feel guilty for not being a “team player” though? [...] like I’m a bad guy for saying “No.”
Yes when it's with a SO. No with everyone else.
SOs are special people ahaha. Especially when I know that the intentions behind their unsolicited decision making are good, I'm like oh maaaaan I know you mean well, why make it so hard for me to tell you off, why can't your intentions be mean so I can gladly tell you to eff off.
I have forced myself to shut up and be a teamplayer at times, because it made sense to me rationally to go along with it, a lot of times I treat it as charity work. But man it was haaaaard, tasting my own blood from biting my tongue so hard.
By charity work I mean that after saying 'no' too much, I will choose 1 instance to shut up and follow, thinking in my head "This will make my SO happy, he will think he's smart and there will be no conflict and he will have an ego boost and he will sleep with satisfaction tonight" xD Biting my tongue is charity work, seriously.

I also hate feeling like I say 'no' too much, like it makes me feel sick to my stomach when I've opposed someone a few times in a row, I feel like a debbie downer. I'm typically an uplifter and positive minded, and when I must say 'no' too much, I get a nasty feeling and want to push the person away so that the source of my saying 'no' (source = the person) is removed for the situation. If I remove the source, I can be at peace and feel positive again.

Also, it's not like I don't want to do a deep clean of the house. I just want to do it when I want to do and I want to be asked properly he wants help. The argument went like, "THIS IS YOUR THING! You are inspired! So YOU should do it."
Exactly. It's like you said in another post, when you said that whenever you get an inspiration to do something (like clean) you go and do it by yourself. I am the same way. I go and do the thing by myself, I don't try to enlist other people into the activity, mostly because it wouldn't cross my mind to interrupt their flow and their space. I assume that everyone is experiencing their own flow, just like I am experiencing mine at all times, and so I just feel respect for what people want to do with their time and energy. So if I get an inspiration to clean the house, I just do it. Put on my earphones with a podcast and get to work, and I automatically assume that my SO is immersed in their own activity right now and I don't want or need to bother them. INFPs we are very independent, we do stuff by ourselves.

I wouldn't say it's an Fe thing, since an ENFP I dated did the teamwork thing all the frikking time. I felt like such a debbie downer because I was constantly refusing the plans that he would fabricate for the both of us. He would sign me up for activities and shit I didn't want to do, because he had a story in his head that I would want to do those things, except he never asked me. He would also call his friends and go "Hey me and my girlfriend are showing up at your party, we're excited" and I would hear him say that on the phone and I was horrified! I would tell him off -and of course refuse to go to whatever party- and he then would have to call the people and cancel. This happened A LOT. And I never understood why the guy didn't learn the lesson of asking first. Why would you continually put yourself in situations of making promises to events and then have to cancel because you never checked in with the people involved. It's such a strange thing to me.
My ESFP mother is also a teamwork kind of person. She continually signs me up for events without asking. Then says "Hey we're going to...." "Who's WE?" "You and I of course!" and then I get exasperated. You think she has stopped doing doing after 32 years of knowing me? No. She never learns. Oh well.
I'll just keep exercising my 'no' and maybe one day hopefully people will get tired of having to cancel plans and events due to not asking beforehand. I don't even know. People are weird.
 

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Wait, really?! Oh no, I kinda often say things like "we should do (whatever)" super excitedly with no intention of coming across as controlling :unsure:

It's my way of throwing ideas out there but in a noncommittal way... like "oooooh we should decorate the house!" But I actually don't really have serious plans of decorating but just thought it would be cool to do some time. Or sometimes to try to make it sound inclusive cuz I don't feel a need to talk about stuff I'm doing if it doesn't involve others.

I personally don't like "you should do (whatever)" or stuff like that where it sounds bossy. But I think it ultimately comes down to how it's being said though. Cuz if the person is saying it in a way where they expect you to do that then, yes, I would be irritated by it a bit as well. But with friends and people I enjoy brainstorming with, I've never really minded it and I doubt they do either.
 

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It never ends good. "WE SHOULD GO TO THE RODEO ON ACID!!!"

Um... no we shouldn't. That is not a decision I want to be coerced into making. Or lots of other decisions either. ;-)

I agree with @Lord Pixel too. It's controlling. I do my own thing. I'll tell my friends that I want to ski the Ptarmigan Glacier Middle Finger and let them know they are welcome to join me. But never any pressure. If someone doesn't like what I like, that's ok. And I hope it's ok with them for me not to like something they want to do.
 

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It all depends. Because on one hand, I do like being encouraged, I like actually being involved with another person for once. I may speak to someone else that way an attempt to provide what I would want, this feeling of being included and appreciated. But it has to feel genuine and not like a trap to get me sucked into something. It can't be something that I am obviously disinterested in, that's kinda rude. It also drastically depends on tone. Are you telling me, or are you excitedly making a suggestion?
 

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Eh, well, I tend to be inclusive/collective in terms of lighthearted suggestions, but besides family and close friends, and my chosen obligations/hobbies, I don't really like committing to much of anything with anyone. So I might say something like this but also would rarely mean it as anything more than a suggestion. I get tired of making decisions for myself... I definitely don't have much interest in controlling everyone else.

Group gifts - well, the upsides are that you can get something larger/more expensive with a pool of resources, and that it can make otherwise-awkward or time-consuming gift-giving (like in work, school, other organizations) easier. My mom, brother, husband, and I are all chipping in to get my dad something fairly expensive this Christmas - and I think it is quite personal because we have put a lot of thought and effort into choosing the specs of what we are planning for him. And at work a group gift is an easy way for a lot of people who know someone in varying closenesses to make a kind gesture without struggling to figure out gifts on their own (plus I think most people would rather the $50 Amazon gift card over 12 small trinkets). Choosing the gift doesn't strike me as a struggle. I've never really been in a situation where a group wanted to get a gift but didn't know what. I am also fine with picking out a gift if a group throws money at me... sort of enjoyable honestly. On the other hand, of course, sometimes the group is inconvenient or otherwise unappealing, in which case I try to duck out.

As for someone else suggesting "we" should do something that is clearly going to be me doing - yeah, it's kind of annoying, but I guess I judge it more on whether I agree with their point about what should be done or not. If my husband says we/I should clean... well, he's probably right. And I know that he will be willing to help me if I ask. It'd be different if the other person weren't willing to chip in. In that case I would be inclined to direct a sarcastic response back to them.

Is it that I am seeing the WE as being controlling?
Well, maybe somewhat? To be fair, sometimes people do say it in a controlling way. But other times I think they are just putting an idea out there to see how it goes.
 

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I can get annoyed by it at times - but I generally let my annoyance simmer and fade. I tend to give no response when people say "we should..." and then go off to do my own stuff :D I don't see why I should do anything, especially not when I don't like/ don't see a point in doing it. People tend to leave me alone after that. I do the same for others also - nobody Should have to do anything just because I asked. I always caveat my suggestions and requests with a "only if you want to of course, no pressure!"

A person's response after they receive a rejection for their "we should..." suggestion matters I think. More often than not people don't try to bring me on a guilt trip, and are nice about it when I say no. But some people get offended when they go "we should....." and when you opt out of it, they are offended: because you're no fun, no team player bla bla bla. This irks me to no end. These people try to guilt trip others into doing things they want to do - most likely to attain their own agenda (whether it's fun, less work, or community etc). some people also take all forms of rejection personally, even when you put it as softly as possible, so when you respond with a "no" it hurts their ego.

I easily feel resentful when people do all the above to me, since I hate feeling like I'm coerced into doing something, as it takes away any meaning. I agree that how you ask is important; this is communication skill too. Asking for someone else's opinion is respect and consideration towards another person's space and needs, and not getting offended is recognition that not everyone enjoys what you enjoy (diversity really).

With that said, I have to admit that there are times when my irritation and resentment stem from feeling threatened. A basic fear that I have to expand energy (which is Low in supply by default), to do something I find meaningless. The phrase "we should" kicks off an instinctual response that signals to me I should protect my "space", since any form of obligation without my consent is seen as a transgression of boundaries for me.
 

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Also, it's not like I don't want to do a deep clean of the house. I just want to do it when I want to do and I want to be asked properly he wants help. The argument went like, "THIS IS YOUR THING! You are inspired! So YOU should do it." Lol. We both usually run on this flexible P thing, so when he gets on some inspired kick of "WE should exercise more," etc., it throws me off.
I was going to reply but this covers my sentiments succinctly. But then I freely admit that I have a habit of doing the same thing, though it's more of voicing a desire over asking someone to do something (which I despise..and would much rather think out loud and have people agree rather than directly ask them, a quirk).
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Yes when it's with a SO. No with everyone else.
SOs are special people ahaha. Especially when I know that the intentions behind their unsolicited decision making are good, I'm like oh maaaaan I know you mean well, why make it so hard for me to tell you off, why can't your intentions be mean so I can gladly tell you to eff off.
I have forced myself to shut up and be a teamplayer at times, because it made sense to me rationally to go along with it, a lot of times I treat it as charity work. But man it was haaaaard, tasting my own blood from biting my tongue so hard.
By charity work I mean that after saying 'no' too much, I will choose 1 instance to shut up and follow, thinking in my head "This will make my SO happy, he will think he's smart and there will be no conflict and he will have an ego boost and he will sleep with satisfaction tonight" xD Biting my tongue is charity work, seriously.
Hahaha. You don’t have to explain “charity work” to me. I know just what you mean, and that is the PERFECT way to put it. “He will think he’s smart.” LOL. So cute little SOs. Don’t even realize how much “charity work” we do all of the time. Ya, I think what happens is after it goes on too long, I just get a bit fussy from making what I consider to be “sacrifices,” and he’s like “Where is this coming from?!!?!” And, I throw back at him, “You picked THIS (me)!”

That is a really good point you made about being an uplifter. I think that is why I go along too, usually. Or, because it rationally makes sense, like you said. It just seems like such a weird thing to be bothered by – if it truly is just about the phrasing and not the meaning behind it – and, I think I feel guilty at times because I see “no” as negative, and I don’t like the idea of being a negative person.

I assume that everyone is experiencing their own flow, just like I am experiencing mine at all times, and so I just feel respect for what people want to do with their time and energy.
Sounds so like me that it is scary.

Thanks for clarifying the Fe thing. So what is it? Just a people thing?

That is annoying about ENFP. I can understand your ESFP mom missing this sort of thing (still), but how did ENFP not know that you didn’t want to go?

Yeah, I agree. People are weird.
 
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@MissAl
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Aww. :hug: No worries, friends.

I know what you mean about the excited-happy lighthearted suggestions. And, I think honestly as long as you would not expect me to agree to it or join in your enthusiasm – if it really, truly is OPTIONAL – then, I am not bothered. I just would not want you to count on follow-through on my part or shared enthusiasm. Lol. That sounds so sad, but I think that is how I honestly feel inside.

My extroverted mom is always saying “OHHH, let’s do this! Let’s do that!” But, I just say, “No.” And, she doesn’t care. Like, actually does not care. And, it’s the best because I hate hurting people’s feelings or letting them down.

In these more positive situations, I think I do recognize that your excitement is really your own, and it is more an INVITATION to join (“brainstorming” as you said) in that excitement than a demand.

At the same time, I would not ever want to make you feel bad about being so happy to decorate (Lil Dream’s example), so I would likely not shut down your idea (or let you know I was opposed in these cases) and would likely just go along even if I did not really feel it myself. I do prefer harmony.
 

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@twirler You are hilarious! xD coffee went up my nose choking oh god xD

“You picked THIS (me)!”
xD

I don't know what it is, or where it comes from in certain people, it's a mystery to me tbh.
The only thing I know is that the ENFP was super people oriented and super naïve. He believed that everybody loved everybody, and that everybody loved him. He had no concept of social disruptions, or that somebody in the world would reject him or not want his company. And so he had no boundaries, he had this belief of "Of course she wants to do X Y Z with me, of course! Because I'm awesome and lovely to be around. Cumbayáaaa". Not in an egocentric way, he was too naïve to be egocentric. He just genuinely believed in group work, community & people joining together to create a magical world where we are all happy and grow fairy wings. It was the extroversion in him and how highly he valued groups and the idealisation of the concept of community.
But I think each person has different reasons. Like I imagine an ENTJ would make decisions on our behalf for a different reason, not the idealization of Togetherness and Cumbayá, but more on the lines of effectiveness, or wanting to be controlling of their environment, or something. Your ISTP will value other things. And so on.
 

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@MissAl
@LittleDreamer
@angelfish

Aww. :hug: No worries, friends.

I know what you mean about the excited-happy lighthearted suggestions. And, I think honestly as long as you would not expect me to agree to it or join in your enthusiasm – if it really, truly is OPTIONAL – then, I am not bothered. I just would not want you to count on follow-through on my part or shared enthusiasm. Lol. That sounds so sad, but I think that is how I honestly feel inside.

My extroverted mom is always saying “OHHH, let’s do this! Let’s do that!” But, I just say, “No.” And, she doesn’t care. Like, actually does not care. And, it’s the best because I hate hurting people’s feelings or letting them down.

In these more positive situations, I think I do recognize that your excitement is really your own, and it is more an INVITATION to join (“brainstorming” as you said) in that excitement than a demand.

At the same time, I would not ever want to make you feel bad about being so happy to decorate (Lil Dream’s example), so I would likely not shut down your idea (or let you know I was opposed in these cases) and would likely just go along even if I did not really feel it myself. I do prefer harmony.
I suppose this is where the idea of a reciprocal relationship comes in. I don't mind feigning interest or portraying some excitement if another person is willing to do the same for me. But of course we all know your casual narcissists who always expect you to listen about their day or join their project when they could give a flying monkey turd about anyone else's. Beyond what's necessary for reasonable harmony, I am not interested in complying with these people. Then if a person at least seems to mean well despite my disinterest, I may try to humor them. I would never expect anyone to truly join in on something they outright disliked though, nor would I do the same. I like to think I am intuitive enough myself that I could get the hint if that were the case. In fact, when I detect even the slightest bit of contempt, I may feel uncomfortable and question my dragging the other person in at all. So for me to invite you is kind of a big deal, I don't make suggestions often. If I have misread the situation then you can be honest with me and that is fine too, I'll try not to take it personally.
 

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It just means you're a selfish piece of shit who needs to get a hint about how to share responsibilities and do things that make you cringe in theory but in reality they are what everyone lives for.
 

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This goes along with my aversion to grouping. What do the rest of you INFPs think/feel about this?

I am not saying that I am opposed to harmony or keeping the peace - or even sucking it up and doing something you don't want to do at times for the good of the group (I usually do)... but, I don't know. I feel a little bristle inside. It's like making myself superficial or something. Is this my Fi talking?

Like for instance, people I know always want to do group gifts. WE should get Sally a gift. Often appropriate, but often seems impersonal to me. Sometimes I don't want to be a part of it (never mind the fact that I feel pressure to get it done myself since I am the gap filler). What would I prefer? Well, I think I would prefer someone to say, "I got Sally a gift, and I was thinking maybe we could give it as a group. What do you think?" Or, better yet, giving her a gift on their own! Take responsibility for your own thing!

I don't know. Is it that I am seeing the WE as being controlling?

Or, just this weekend. My ISTP husband, "WE should do a deep house clean." Is it that I am totally unwilling to clean the house? NO! I just want him to say, "I am going to do a deep house clean." Or, better yet, just do it. I just can't imagine ever saying that to him. If it bothered me, I would just do it.

What is going on here with me internally? Why is it so offensive to me? WHAT IS MY PROBLEM? Lol.
I don't like it because it assumes permission; instead of asking for it. I've always found it a bit manipulative.
 
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