Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
After being questioned on my enneatype by plenty of people in the last few months (consensus being on type 4), and being told that I only shift gear to being type 1 when something big happens (I observed that too), and upon finding this great questionnaire (cuz I looove talking about myself), I'm going to waste another Monday night on doing what I feel like doing. Fuck yeah, life.

1. How would an author describe you in a book? Write the paragraph that would introduce you in a novel.

He was one of those intelligent souls condemned to never reach their full potential in the eyes of everyone except themselves. A living contradiction for everyone who knew him on any level and a dormant danger to everyone else. But in his own mind, he was only someone trying to live up to the great men he'd read about and whenever he failed to do anything that helped him retain that mindset, he'd satisfy himself with simply thinking about all those men and all the events and changes they made in the history of mankind. To him, merely dreaming such sonorous dreams was a definition of a life worth living. Living up to those dreams was wholly contingent, a mere metaphysical accident. Better a Caesar in a beggar's garb than a peasant in a business suit, or so he thought. And thoughts amounted to everything.

2. Think over the past day or week and make a mental list (you can also write it here) of ways other people have annoyed, angered, or otherwise bothered you - any situation where people have done one thing, while you wished they would have done another. Look at each of these instances and answer (you can make a list or make note of general patterns - an example is good):

My best friend, after botching a group presentation, went on a blame game tirade about a member of his group. He blamed everything on him. I despise sore losers and I especially hate people who blame others after a defeat. At that moment, I felt like punching him in the face, and I almost did. Yesterday, I felt like doing it again because he made an argument so stupid, and so borrowed from other stupid people, that I almost completely lost it. Thankfully, we were texting. If we were talking face-to-face, I'd strangle him for disappointing me that hard.

a. How would I characterize the trait that bothered me?

Irrationality. Failure to accept responsibility. Failure to empathize with others in a joint effort. Failure to look ahead after a setback.

b. Why did it bother me?

It physically suffocated me.

c. How did I react?

By losing my shit.

d. How do I wish I would have reacted?

I should've lost my shit harder than that.

e. If there was a discrepancy between c. and d., why did it come up?

Because I hold back too much sometimes and when I think back on those things, I can't help the passive-aggression. Don't ever remind me of things that made me angry because I'll get angry simply thinking about them.

3. What holds you back in life? This can be an internal or external force. If that thing were gone, what would be different? What would you do?

Sleep. No matter how much or how little I sleep, the headaches never go away. 20 minutes after waking up, headaches start again. Sleep is my eternal enemy. I keep procrastinating on things and delaying any cognitively demanding tasks just because 'I haven't had enough sleep'. At this point, it's impossible for me to imagine this need to go away. I'm used to the headaches by now.

If it did go away, I feel like I'd be the next Carl Fucking Gauss. Ok, that was an exaggeration. I can't even 2+2 without a calculator sometimes.

4. Your deepest secret has just been revealed to the person or people from whom you most wished to keep it. How do you feel? How do you react? What are the results on your life?


I have no secrets. I live my life with the mindset of never having to hide anything. But that doesn't mean I only do things that are socially acceptable. On the contrary, I do everything I feel like doing; I just make sure I can justify my actions later on. And sometimes when I can't justify them, I can always play the 'I felt like it' wild card and prepare myself to brace the consequences. Ironically, that honesty actually got me out of many tough situations.

5. You are offered one of three gifts: a bottle filled with water from the Fountain of Life, a crown which will give you peaceful dominion over the world's people for your entire (full) lifetime, and a ring which will unite you with your true love and ensure a happy, passionate marriage. Which do you choose and why? What are your hesitations and motivations?

The first one. I can achieve the other two at my will if I'm immortal. I want dominion, but not without the necessary struggle. If I'm granted a kingdom without having made any effort for it, I'll never live up to the duty I've been given. And as for true love: I'd rather spend my life with invaluable comrades and only dream about a wife and family that I may or may not have. I have no hatred for love and family; just that these things are, in the grand scheme of things, so inconsequential and insignificant for the attention and care they demand. And sometimes, in unfortunate cases, they have the potential to destroy great minds and bog them down into problematic domestic affairs. It's revolting, really, to see so much brainpower going to waste because of the startling complexity of human relationships. That does imply a soft spot for ideal matches, but even if I meet my ideal match, I'd still say no to a life lived in her service. She'd be a big part of my life, no doubt, but I'd rather be of more use to the world than to my wife, if I really had to choose between the two.

6. You are offered one of three houses. The first is located in a big city and has historic and artistic value: it was designed by a great architect and was owned by interesting people in the past. Owning this house is very prestigious and guarantees you social status and a circle of friends, but it also comes with responsibility - you must keep the house up to code, manage the household, and give parties and events. The second house you may design using your imagination - literally your dream house - it is located in a very secluded location and no one is allowed to visit this house except you and your immediate family. The third house is very nice, but has no particular aesthetic appeal - a McMansion in short. It is in an extremely convenient location and is very secure. It is impossible for thieves to break in and it has no danger of natural disasters. You are guaranteed to be able to sell the house for double the price in twenty years. Which do you choose and why? What are your hesitations and motivations?

The first one, easily. Not because of the status or the prestige; I'd actually try to make sure people stay away from my house (possibly by starting 'haunted house' rumors about it). I love art and fine architecture. Someone once asked me what will I do if I go to Paris; I said I'll read a book on top of Eiffel tower. Actually, I'll take out a huge portion of this house and convert it into a library and a club for intellectuals and artists; hire the best coffee-makers around to keep us pretentious twats up at night talking about impractical things that only a vampire can truly care about.

You may ask why not the second house since it allows me to design however I want. Well, the secluded location is the deal-breaker. I want to have my own cozy dwelling in the middle of action. Kind of like a bunker in a battlefield where I get to partake in the battle while also being a spectator.

7. You are offered one of three doors. The first opens to a world that is dangerous and demands mental or physical skill to navigate through, but also has great rewards to be gained: think of the worlds portrayed on the shows Game of Thrones or Supernatural. The second opens to a world that is full of wonders, magic, and knowledge, which can be learned or experienced, but there is little solid resting ground - think of the worlds portrayed in the shows Doctor Who or in the multi-media phenomenon A Hitchkiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The third opens to a world where you may experience a life of peaceful, uneventful poverty - think of the hobbits in the series Lord of the Rings or most of the animals living in Narnia. Which do you choose and why? What are your hesitations and motivations?


The first one, again. I loathe inaction and stagnation, but I also dislike persistent action without thought. I need just enough time to think about the things that are happening but not enough time to stagnate. And of course, things must happen. I hate the idea of magic, its inherent inscrutability, so fuck the second world. What's the point of learning an art that you can only perform and never understand? I don't even know the appeal of magic, honestly.

8. What do you wish people understood about you? Talk about a time you were misunderstood.

I wish they'd understand that although I reject their opinions and beliefs about almost everything and can argue my perspective fairly well, it still doesn't mean that I have my own opinions and beliefs about those things. I consider it my duty to never accept things I can refute. And that sometimes leaves me with a vacuum of beliefs. They see a fanaticism in my rejection when it's simply just annoyance. No, I don't have an agenda because of which I reject your opinions. I reject them because they are wrong. Simple as that. Don't expect me to have an answer when I prove yours wrong. Perhaps it's time to accept the reality that we all just don't know.

9. What do you hope people won't notice about you? What are you uncomfortable being teased about?

My absolute lack of guard against physical attacks. I'm always uncomfortable around people who're too physically jumpy. I feel as if they'd jump at me any moment and I'd be stuck in a pointless physical struggle for the next few minutes; and the worst part is that I won't be able to think about worthy things during that pointless wrestling. I hate exerting myself physically without a point. If it's a sport, I'm in. Just don't get hyper around me elsewhere or I'll punch you in the fucking face.

Luckily, they can't tease me about it since very few people actually like these ultra-energetic people. They make everyone uncomfortable except their own kind. I'd rather they stick to their own kind.

10. What's worse - to be seen as caring more than you do or less than you do? Why? Do you think you come across one way or the other? Do you typically pretend to care more or to care less?

Caring more, obviously. There are always gestures to adopt if you're seen as caring less which will show that you do care (actually, it doesn't work... it didn't work in my relationship but... whatever). If you're seen as caring more, people try to sell bullshit to you or think you're too naive.

At times I catch myself pretending I care less. Maybe because I'm embarrassed to admit I care, or maybe it serves me an advantage to not care. But my emotionless face and meme-worthy smile makes sure that I always appear as if I don't care. My silence often makes people think I'm clinically depressed.

11. Think about a time that someone else tried to control your actions - to tell you what to do, to manipulate you, or influence you. How did you feel and how did you react? What went through your mind?

A friend told me to insult a classmate in whatsapp group for petty politics. I told him off saying it'll look too desperate. When he pushed, I told him to do it himself. When he pulled the 'aren't you a friend' card, I said I'm a friend not a slave. He stopped. I have no problem with people telling me what to do as long as it is a rational command. But people are fucking stupid, so I end up getting into fights with people who try to control me. It's fucking annoying. It goes without saying but someone truly rational will never feel the need to 'control' others anyway. Smart people know that scarce good advice is far better than occasional or consistent commands. And in the above scenario with my friend, he should've been smart enough to make sure I cared enough about his politics to comply.

12. When you first meet someone, what are your first thoughts? What judgments do you make and what kinds of considerations do you have? Are you more concerned with what they think of you or what you think of them? If you are preparing to meet someone new, what do you hope about them and what do you fear about them?

My first thought is a plea, 'Please be unique!'. Bring me something new; new concerns, new passions, new thoughts, new desires, new talents, just don't be another robot. It's nigh impossible to find humans, really. I only care about what they think of me when I think something worthy of them.

When I meet someone new, I hope for a good conversation. My only fear is they might bore me.

13. Think about the last time you cried (if you've recently lost a loved one or gone through another similarly difficult experience, you can go back further and choose a random instance). What caused this? Who was around? Were you crying out of sadness, joy, frustration, or some other factor? How did you feel afterwards? Did it change anything? Is this typical for you?

I never cry because of the usual reasons. The last time I got close to crying was while watching 'Racing Extinction'. Seeing all those people giving their all to a losing battle. The fact that if they succeed, no one will ever notice that someone even fought for this success because no one cares about nature, and if they fail they won't even be alive to say, 'We told you this would happen!', is heart-breaking enough. It's unfortunate that things that truly matter remain out of sight until it's unbearable to even look at them. You'd google 'Caspian Tigers' and feel rage at those Russian soldiers who wiped those magnificent creatures off this planet. But it wouldn't occur to you how many more species, at this very instant, are dying away. And it would be very impractical for you to care about that really. Earth Sciences don't really offer that many jobs, apart from in petroleum-related fields which ironically only serve to destroy Earth. It's frustrating that we set up these little closed systems for ourselves; self-serving to the point that self-service becomes an addiction and then it's too late to push ourselves to do something that doesn't begin and end with us only.

Enough nerdery. No one's ever seen me cry. I can only get teary-eyed out of melancholy about abstract ideas like above. Real, concrete, sadness only makes me angry. It's typical of me to get a lump in my throat thinking about abstract sadness, and only an impatient anger for real sadness. Does it change me? I think given how well-sorted my emotional reactions are, change is more like a premise here rather than a conclusion.

14. Think about the last time you felt really happy, joyful, or satisfied. What caused this feeling? What was different? What keeps you from feeling this way all the time?


Every time my bestie sends me a text message saying, 'Wanna go out for coffee/tea?'. I love it when we spontaneously plan stuff and extravagantly spend our money on little luxuries and then grumble about our empty wallets at the end. I feel like...living life in those moments. For a small time it feels like there's no restriction on us anymore and we are immortals living in a world that doesn't seem to have an end. The only thing that stops us is... budget... and responsibilities. And I'd actually prefer it if these moments are restricted like this. I'd feel queasy if they lasted too long.

15. If you were a tragic hero, what would be your fatal flaw? If you were a character in a comedy, what would be your distinguishing trait (i.e. stingy with money, fastidious, shallow, pretentious, etc.) Do you think others would agree with these?

My fatal flaw as a tragic hero would be a failure to understand that just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's going to happen nor does it mean others are going to do it. As a comedy character, my distinguishing trait would be entirely-out-of-the-blue sarcasm.

I know most will agree with my flaw as a tragic hero at least.

16. Think over the past day or week and make a mental list (you can also write it here) of ways that you have done badly - by yourself, by others, etc. - any time that you have done something, and wish you would have done better. How would you characterize these instances? What caused you to fail and what was your reaction? Are you more likely to be hard on yourself or to find excuses for yourself?

Ahh, only study related issues come up. I need to stop winging my exams, that's all. I neither find excuses for myself nor do I punish myself. I own my failure and move on. And sometimes move on so completely that I forget about my failure completely. Way to go Stawker.

17. a. Imagine meeting an evil version of yourself - your 'dark side' - and describe this person.

You mean that wanker who prefers to not leave his room for months and barks at anyone who dares disturb him and outright defies every good advice because he's sick of it all and just wants to commit suicide?

Veeeeery evil.

b. Describe your ideal self.

Someone whose whole being is a humbling reminder of all the things that lie on the edges of human existence; in other words, the things that are keeping us orderly afloat in this chaotic universe. Simultaneously a rustic and an ascetic; someone who knows how to introduce unbridled passion within the limits of civil life. Almost like striking a chord tense enough to stiffen every muscle in the body while also creating a peaceful melody. The embodiment of the struggle behind all that is beautiful and worth protecting.

18. What is your experience with and how do you deal with the following:
a. loneliness:
I don't feel lonely, ever. I sometimes get so horny it almost resembles loneliness but bah, it only takes one orgasm to go away.
b. doubt: If I find doubt where I think it shouldn't be, then get ready to see me at my angriest. I despise uncertainty and that has created some really difficult moments in my relationships with people.
c. boredom: I call my friends and go out with them. If they aren't available, I get up and start cooking random stuff.
d. laziness: I do nothing about it. I prefer to do things only when I feel like doing them. And I still manage to be more disciplined than most people I know. Funny.
e. temper: Mostly I eat it inside. But if it's something really fucking stupid, I lash out. And I feel no regrets about that.

19. Which of the 'seven deadly sins' - pride, wrath, sloth, envy, lust, gluttony, avarice - do you relate to most and why? Which do you relate to least and why? Feel free to go into depth about these.


Most: Wrath. I don't get angry often but when I do, I feel like I'm justified. I often let anger take the best of me when vulnerability, a simple confession about my needs, would do far better. I give orders instead of placing requests. And so on.

Least: Envy. I think too much about myself and dead people to even care what people around me are doing or having.

20. Link a song you relate to and explain why.


This song is me in music form. Melodic undertones and harsh vocals; guitars that deliver a frisson-surge but within limits. It's energetic and disciplined. The part from 1:55 to 2:50 never fails to give me goosebumps. The politically-charged lyrics only make it better.

---------------------

Calling my mom @Dare just to waste her time. Others are welcomed too. I want to settle on a tritype ideally.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
@Stawker

You put me in danger of being a better person too frequently for me to think you aren't an e1.

That's not to say I won't play along (tonight).

If you have time, tell me what your relationship to the following are:
1. Envy?
2. Shame?
3. Taking pride in being unique?
4. Like being 'seen'/getting attention?
5. Like the idea of being rescued romantically or otherwise? What about supported or nurtured?
6. How concerned are you with self-image?
7. Do you feel like something fundamental is missing (you lack something as a person compared to others)?
8. Ever feel that you/your identity could disappear suddenly?
9. Do you deteriorate to self indulgence (or critical perfectionism)?
10. Ever been resentful of other's achievements or felt competitive in a hostile way?

:)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
@Stawker
If you have time, tell me what your relationship to the following are:
1. Envy?
Never felt it.

2. Shame?
I lost all my shame some time ago, so not this either.

3. Taking pride in being unique?
Every.Moment.Of.My.Life.

4. Like being 'seen'/getting attention?
I like it when I receive it in moderation. Too much and I start to feel ...naked. Too little and I go into recluse mode again.

5. Like the idea of being rescued romantically or otherwise? What about supported or nurtured?
Even at my lowest, I've never felt the need to be saved. I fancy rescuing people, even when I'm the one who needs rescuing. At worst, I fantasize being a martyr -- that I save something even as I go out.

6. How concerned are you with self-image?
A friend today remarked, 'Why do you pretend to be a hoodlum when you're actually a disciplined and sophisticated person?'. I probably ironically care about self-image in a very twisted way.

7. Do you feel like something fundamental is missing (you lack something as a person compared to others)?
Sometimes, with certain people only. But it's nothing fundamental, just something that I think will help me maneuver life more easily if I had it so...nope.

8. Ever feel that you/your identity could disappear suddenly?
No. Something in me always, as if dutifully, pulls me back to a more meditative state of mind, a state which I believe is where I am at my truest. It's impossible to imagine that one day I can suddenly begin to live without thinking.

9. Do you deteriorate to self indulgence (or critical perfectionism)?
Sometimes. But only when I come across someone who I perceive to be light years ahead of me.

10. Ever been resentful of other's achievements or felt competitive in a hostile way?
No. I'm more likely to be in awe of those better than me than to feel a sort of jealousy that likes to compete. This awe sometimes freezes me in my footsteps and really works against me, and I'd prefer to get rid of this proclivity actually. Today I was playing basketball after a long time with my College's team (all at least 3 years my senior who practiced regularly), and throughout the whole game I just watched them. I was absolutely useless on the court. My only thought was a seething sense of inferiority that kept telling me to step outside, just observe the game, and practice when I'm alone and can take risks freely (that's what I've always done to the point that I absolutely suck at team play). I was too afraid to do something that might disappoint them so I ended up doing nothing which disappointed them anyway. Others of my batch who were equally rusty, on the other hand, only became more competitive and tried even harder. This is the thing that I feel like I'm lacking. I'm competitive but my way of competing requires too much time and is too perfectionist. I feel like I need that competitive hostility.

Awwwwww
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
After being questioned on my enneatype by plenty of people in the last few months (consensus being on type 4), and being told that I only shift gear to being type 1 when something big happens (I observed that too).
Can you tell me how this "something big happens" works? E4 integrates to a E1 but integration is said to be a conscious choice. E1 disintegrates to e4 under stress so it's possible to behave/look like a 4 when you're still a core 1. I assume the 4 look would be heightened if you also happen to have it in your tritype to begin with.

I don't doubt you have a slice of dark romanticism in you (looks at your current avatar -- yeah, lol), I just don't believe you live there. You speak in 1 language ('duty'), you focus on 1 things (making the world better etc), you seem to see your role in life in a 1 way (teacher, role model, standards setter/enforcer etc). You look outwards, you'd put the world on your shoulders if you could. This is not what a 4 does.

The other thing that has to be said up front is that even though any MBTI can be any enneagram type, an ENTJ as a poor-me 4 who feels ill equipped to be in the world compared to others and needs to be rescued!? You're deep & intuitive, you have the (well developed) N, you're just missing a couple of other letters since 4s tend to be INFXs, which makes perfect sense bc they are withdrawn and 'go inward' (introverts) and their feelz are an enormous part of being a 4.

What they feel is what they are (identity). They will cultivate moods to keep a stable identity. They will act out from feelings; 'how dare you make me feel X!' These are not T types. I assume the reason you get the occasional e4 INTJ is bc they don't have well developed Te yet (when enneagram gets set). From this perspective a Te dominant/ENTJ is incredibly unlikely (even if technically possible). I'm aware you're no Gordon Gecko (stereotypical ENTJ) but I still think; seriously?

But alright. Let's play it out.

1. How would an author describe you in a book? Write the paragraph that would introduce you in a novel.
He was one of those intelligent souls condemned to never reach their full potential in the eyes of everyone except themselves. A living contradiction for everyone who knew him on any level and a dormant danger to everyone else. But in his own mind, he was only someone trying to live up to the great men he'd read about and whenever he failed to do anything that helped him retain that mindset, he'd satisfy himself with simply thinking about all those men and all the events and changes they made in the history of mankind. To him, merely dreaming such sonorous dreams was a definition of a life worth living. Living up to those dreams was wholly contingent, a mere metaphysical accident. Better a Caesar in a beggar's garb than a peasant in a business suit, or so he thought. And thoughts amounted to everything.
Who doesn't like Diogenes? 1.

2. Think over the past day or week and make a mental list (you can also write it here) of ways other people have annoyed, angered, or otherwise bothered you - any situation where people have done one thing, while you wished they would have done another. Look at each of these instances and answer (you can make a list or make note of general patterns - an example is good):
My best friend, after botching a group presentation, went on a blame game tirade about a member of his group. He blamed everything on him. I despise sore losers and I especially hate people who blame others after a defeat. At that moment, I felt like punching him in the face, and I almost did. Yesterday, I felt like doing it again because he made an argument so stupid, and so borrowed from other stupid people, that I almost completely lost it. Thankfully, we were texting. If we were talking face-to-face, I'd strangle him for disappointing me that hard.
We must be really bored. 1.

a. How would I characterize the trait that bothered me?
Irrationality. Failure to accept responsibility. Failure to empathize with others in a joint effort. Failure to look ahead after a setback.
1. Note how this is about values, ideals, morality, thinking -- more objective stuff, not 'he made me feelz'. You like to police people's 'bad' behavior or at least teach them to be better. You set the standard and other's need to conform (in a morality/rational way not a rules are rules way). You're like one of those cattle dogs that rounds up the herd. Adorable.

b. Why did it bother me?
It physically suffocated me.
Body/instinctive type. 1.

c. How did I react?
By losing my shit.
d. How do I wish I would have reacted?
I should've lost my shit harder than that.
E1s tend to hold themselves back in fear of their own anger (really letting it rip)

e. If there was a discrepancy between c. and d., why did it come up?
Because I hold back too much sometimes and when I think back on those things, I can't help the passive-aggression. Don't ever remind me of things that made me angry because I'll get angry simply thinking about them.
1 Anger = body type. The only way around it is if we say you're a 4 who holds yourself in anger as part of your identity. But your anger is a reaction and you've said before it passes quickly. That's a 1. I have known an unhealthy 4 who would lash out (upon being hurt in the feelz) and put a hole in the wall -- you're not that person. And I don't believe you are low in health levels either.

3. What holds you back in life? This can be an internal or external force. If that thing were gone, what would be different? What would you do?
Sleep. No matter how much or how little I sleep, the headaches never go away. 20 minutes after waking up, headaches start again. Sleep is my eternal enemy. I keep procrastinating on things and delaying any cognitively demanding tasks just because 'I haven't had enough sleep'. At this point, it's impossible for me to imagine this need to go away. I'm used to the headaches by now.

If it did go away, I feel like I'd be the next Carl Fucking Gauss. Ok, that was an exaggeration. I can't even 2+2 without a calculator sometimes.
2 + 2 = unconscious desire to be 4? I'm sorry to hear about your headaches.

4. Your deepest secret has just been revealed to the person or people from whom you most wished to keep it. How do you feel? How do you react? What are the results on your life?
I have no secrets. I live my life with the mindset of never having to hide anything. But that doesn't mean I only do things that are socially acceptable. On the contrary, I do everything I feel like doing; I just make sure I can justify my actions later on. And sometimes when I can't justify them, I can always play the 'I felt like it' wild card and prepare myself to brace the consequences. Ironically, that honesty actually got me out of many tough situations.
This reads like zero shame (and a lot of natural/'real' confidence in who you are). Unless I'm meant to read this backwards like your way of dealing with the (subconscious?) shame you feel is to act shamelessly, I really don't see how you could be a shame-sensitive 4.

5. You are offered one of three gifts: a bottle filled with water from the Fountain of Life, a crown which will give you peaceful dominion over the world's people for your entire (full) lifetime, and a ring which will unite you with your true love and ensure a happy, passionate marriage. Which do you choose and why? What are your hesitations and motivations?
The first one. I can achieve the other two at my will if I'm immortal. I want dominion, but not without the necessary struggle. If I'm granted a kingdom without having made any effort for it, I'll never live up to the duty I've been given. And as for true love: I'd rather spend my life with invaluable comrades and only dream about a wife and family that I may or may not have. I have no hatred for love and family; just that these things are, in the grand scheme of things, so inconsequential and insignificant for the attention and care they demand. And sometimes, in unfortunate cases, they have the potential to destroy great minds and bog them down into problematic domestic affairs. It's revolting, really, to see so much brainpower going to waste because of the startling complexity of human relationships. That does imply a soft spot for ideal matches, but even if I meet my ideal match, I'd still say no to a life lived in her service. She'd be a big part of my life, no doubt, but I'd rather be of more use to the world than to my wife, if I really had to choose between the two.

Mr Integrity (1) who wants dominion (1) but needs to earn* it (1), who wants to be of use to the world (1), who values the 'great' (1) for all (1) above his personal romance/feelz (1). Bonus points for the word 'duty' (1) (which you use regularly). *There is a distinct contrast between the strategy to get needs met that a 1 uses ('earns') compared with the strategy a 4 uses ('withdraws'). They are from different 'hornevian groups' (the other possibility is 'demands'). To put it in different terms, 4s seem like they don't have an internal locus of control -- they don't use terms like 'earn' or 'my will' as you did, they want to be rescued (presumably they feel/believe/want to believe they can't do it themselves). There is a world of difference between an animal so vital they need fresh meat (a struggle) and one who needs someone to hand it to them.

6. You are offered one of three houses. The first is located in a big city and has historic and artistic value: it was designed by a great architect and was owned by interesting people in the past. Owning this house is very prestigious and guarantees you social status and a circle of friends, but it also comes with responsibility - you must keep the house up to code, manage the household, and give parties and events. The second house you may design using your imagination - literally your dream house - it is located in a very secluded location and no one is allowed to visit this house except you and your immediate family. The third house is very nice, but has no particular aesthetic appeal - a McMansion in short. It is in an extremely convenient location and is very secure. It is impossible for thieves to break in and it has no danger of natural disasters. You are guaranteed to be able to sell the house for double the price in twenty years. Which do you choose and why? What are your hesitations and motivations?
The first one, easily. Not because of the status or the prestige; I'd actually try to make sure people stay away from my house (possibly by starting 'haunted house' rumors about it). I love art and fine architecture. Someone once asked me what will I do if I go to Paris; I said I'll read a book on top of Eiffel tower. Actually, I'll take out a huge portion of this house and convert it into a library and a club for intellectuals and artists; hire the best coffee-makers around to keep us pretentious twats up at night talking about impractical things that only a vampire can truly care about. You may ask why not the second house since it allows me to design however I want. Well, the secluded location is the deal-breaker. I want to have my own cozy dwelling in the middle of action. Kind of like a bunker in a battlefield where I get to partake in the battle while also being a spectator.
Spoken like someone who has a foot in both extrovert & introvert or withdrawn & not withdrawn camps. If you were a true 4 I think you would have chosen the secluded house, so 1. If you are a core 1, 1w9 with 4 & 5 in your tritype, you would still have the 4 & 5 & 9 wing all being a withdrawing influence. I wonder if that explains your slight introverted tendency for an extrovert as well as your oversized (and/or fast developed introverted functions) Ni & Fi. The only other thing that stands out is you have an intellectual bent -- 1s are known for being intellectual despite being a body type, so I'll call it a 1 for that reason too. But then 4 on the 'love art & fine architecture' and wanting artists to come over (could be tritype influence. I love good art/architecture/artists too and I only have a 4 wing).

7. You are offered one of three doors. The first opens to a world that is dangerous and demands mental or physical skill to navigate through, but also has great rewards to be gained: think of the worlds portrayed on the shows Game of Thrones or Supernatural. The second opens to a world that is full of wonders, magic, and knowledge, which can be learned or experienced, but there is little solid resting ground - think of the worlds portrayed in the shows Doctor Who or in the multi-media phenomenon A Hitchkiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The third opens to a world where you may experience a life of peaceful, uneventful poverty - think of the hobbits in the series Lord of the Rings or most of the animals living in Narnia. Which do you choose and why? What are your hesitations and motivations?
The first one, again. I loathe inaction and stagnation, but I also dislike persistent action without thought. I need just enough time to think about the things that are happening but not enough time to stagnate. And of course, things must happen. I hate the idea of magic, its inherent inscrutability, so fuck the second world. What's the point of learning an art that you can only perform and never understand? I don't even know the appeal of magic, honestly.
I think 4s would choose the second, so 1

8. What do you wish people understood about you? Talk about a time you were misunderstood.
I wish they'd understand that although I reject their opinions and beliefs about almost everything and can argue my perspective fairly well, it still doesn't mean that I have my own opinions and beliefs about those things. I consider it my duty to never accept things I can refute. And that sometimes leaves me with a vacuum of beliefs. They see a fanaticism in my rejection when it's simply just annoyance. No, I don't have an agenda because of which I reject your opinions. I reject them because they are wrong. Simple as that. Don't expect me to have an answer when I prove yours wrong. Perhaps it's time to accept the reality that we all just don't know.
This is anti-4, so 1. E4s have plenty of false beliefs, it seems they don't leave 'the position vacant' (they fill blanks in to create a favorable narrative). Plus, 'duty' again.

9. What do you hope people won't notice about you? What are you uncomfortable being teased about?
My absolute lack of guard against physical attacks. I'm always uncomfortable around people who're too physically jumpy. I feel as if they'd jump at me any moment and I'd be stuck in a pointless physical struggle for the next few minutes; and the worst part is that I won't be able to think about worthy things during that pointless wrestling. I hate exerting myself physically without a point. If it's a sport, I'm in. Just don't get hyper around me elsewhere or I'll punch you in the fucking face. Luckily, they can't tease me about it since very few people actually like these ultra-energetic people. They make everyone uncomfortable except their own kind. I'd rather they stick to their own kind.
The worst thing about being physically attacked is that it would momentarily stop your thinking eh? I'm not sure there's a type for that :)

10. What's worse - to be seen as caring more than you do or less than you do? Why? Do you think you come across one way or the other? Do you typically pretend to care more or to care less?
Caring more, obviously. There are always gestures to adopt if you're seen as caring less which will show that you do care (actually, it doesn't work... it didn't work in my relationship but... whatever). If you're seen as caring more, people try to sell bullshit to you or think you're too naive. At times I catch myself pretending I care less. Maybe because I'm embarrassed to admit I care, or maybe it serves me an advantage to not care. But my emotionless face and meme-worthy smile makes sure that I always appear as if I don't care. My silence often makes people think I'm clinically depressed.
If you were a 4 that would mean you would disintegrate to a 2. In case you don't know how disintegration works: basically it's like an escape/coping mechanism -- when a person is seriously stressed/isn't coping they can shift (unconsciously) from the same level of health from their core type to their disintegration type (this is healthier than dropping health levels). Apparently the more practiced you are at making the jump (had troubles in life previously etc), the more easily you will make the switch and for people who do this habitually they can appear to be the other type (their disintegration type). "Ones under great stress for long periods may mistake themselves for Fours because they will chronically act out many average to unhealthy Four characteristics." (Riso & Hudson).

With your personality I find a 4 to 2 disintegration difficult to imagine. I see 1 core, disintegrates to 4, integrates to 7 (which your vampire hours with intellectuals/artists & a coffee machine brings to mind) as far more likely. The other thing to note is integration isn't taking on the other type (as if it were your core) it's about taking parts from that other type that help you adjust/cope/be more balanced in your core type. So a 1 who integrates to a 7 lets go & relaxes a little. A 4 who integrates to a 1 learns to have a bit more discipline & integrity (but won't be a full 1). A 4 disintegrating to a 2 would become "over-involved and clingy". A 1 moving 'down' to a 4 would become "irrational and moody" (according to Riso & Hudson -- the idea being that whatever was repressed comes out under disintegration). It's also possible you're simply shifting around on your tritype and therefore it isn't an 'acting out' in the way disintegration is.

11. Think about a time that someone else tried to control your actions - to tell you what to do, to manipulate you, or influence you. How did you feel and how did you react? What went through your mind?
A friend told me to insult a classmate in whatsapp group for petty politics. I told him off saying it'll look too desperate. When he pushed, I told him to do it himself. When he pulled the 'aren't you a friend' card, I said I'm a friend not a slave. He stopped. I have no problem with people telling me what to do as long as it is a rational command. But people are fucking stupid, so I end up getting into fights with people who try to control me. It's fucking annoying. It goes without saying but someone truly rational will never feel the need to 'control' others anyway. Smart people know that scarce good advice is far better than occasional or consistent commands. And in the above scenario with my friend, he should've been smart enough to make sure I cared enough about his politics to comply.
1

12. When you first meet someone, what are your first thoughts? What judgments do you make and what kinds of considerations do you have? Are you more concerned with what they think of you or what you think of them? If you are preparing to meet someone new, what do you hope about them and what do you fear about them?
My first thought is a plea, 'Please be unique!'. Bring me something new; new concerns, new passions, new thoughts, new desires, new talents, just don't be another robot. It's nigh impossible to find humans, really. I only care about what they think of me when I think something worthy of them. When I meet someone new, I hope for a good conversation. My only fear is they might bore me.
A 4 wants to be unique, they don't want to see unique in others (creates envy in them) so 1. I think the shame sensitive types are meant to be more concerned with how the other sees/likes you (whether you bore them), so 1 again. E4 in tritype may explain this need for depth/humanity/proof of life without the associated envy/shame. Could also just be a Ni/Fi/SX/IQ thing.

13. Think about the last time you cried (if you've recently lost a loved one or gone through another similarly difficult experience, you can go back further and choose a random instance). What caused this? Who was around? Were you crying out of sadness, joy, frustration, or some other factor? How did you feel afterwards? Did it change anything? Is this typical for you?
I never cry because of the usual reasons. The last time I got close to crying was while watching 'Racing Extinction'. Seeing all those people giving their all to a losing battle. The fact that if they succeed, no one will ever notice that someone even fought for this success because no one cares about nature, and if they fail they won't even be alive to say, 'We told you this would happen!', is heart-breaking enough. It's unfortunate that things that truly matter remain out of sight until it's unbearable to even look at them. You'd google 'Caspian Tigers' and feel rage at those Russian soldiers who wiped those magnificent creatures off this planet. But it wouldn't occur to you how many more species, at this very instant, are dying away. And it would be very impractical for you to care about that really. Earth Sciences don't really offer that many jobs, apart from in petroleum-related fields which ironically only serve to destroy Earth. It's frustrating that we set up these little closed systems for ourselves; self-serving to the point that self-service becomes an addiction and then it's too late to push ourselves to do something that doesn't begin and end with us only.

Enough nerdery. No one's ever seen me cry. I can only get teary-eyed out of melancholy about abstract ideas like above. Real, concrete, sadness only makes me angry. It's typical of me to get a lump in my throat thinking about abstract sadness, and only an impatient anger for real sadness. Does it change me? I think given how well-sorted my emotional reactions are, change is more like a premise here rather than a conclusion.
You are such a 1.

14. Think about the last time you felt really happy, joyful, or satisfied. What caused this feeling? What was different? What keeps you from feeling this way all the time?
Every time my bestie sends me a text message saying, 'Wanna go out for coffee/tea?'. I love it when we spontaneously plan stuff and extravagantly spend our money on little luxuries and then grumble about our empty wallets at the end. I feel like...living life in those moments. For a small time it feels like there's no restriction on us anymore and we are immortals living in a world that doesn't seem to have an end. The only thing that stops us is... budget... and responsibilities. And I'd actually prefer it if these moments are restricted like this. I'd feel queasy if they lasted too long.
1 for the reason that this looks a lot like your "security point" which is a temporary move to the average levels of your integration type to let some stress out (healthy coping mechanism). This only happens when you feel sure; "when we feel secure in the strength of our relationship with another person... Ones will sometimes behave like average Sevens but not as often as they tend to act out the average to unhealthy issues of Type Four. Ones are not going to act like average Sevens unless they feel safe to do so" (Riso & Hudson). E7 behaviors is exactly what it looks like with your taking joys from small pleasures/being more spontaneous etc.

15. If you were a tragic hero, what would be your fatal flaw? If you were a character in a comedy, what would be your distinguishing trait (i.e. stingy with money, fastidious, shallow, pretentious, etc.) Do you think others would agree with these?
My fatal flaw as a tragic hero would be a failure to understand that just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's going to happen nor does it mean others are going to do it. As a comedy character, my distinguishing trait would be entirely-out-of-the-blue sarcasm. I know most will agree with my flaw as a tragic hero at least.
Very 1.

16. Think over the past day or week and make a mental list (you can also write it here) of ways that you have done badly - by yourself, by others, etc. - any time that you have done something, and wish you would have done better. How would you characterize these instances? What caused you to fail and what was your reaction? Are you more likely to be hard on yourself or to find excuses for yourself?
Ahh, only study related issues come up. I need to stop winging my exams, that's all. I neither find excuses for myself nor do I punish myself. I own my failure and move on. And sometimes move on so completely that I forget about my failure completely. Way to go Stawker.
For the taking full responsibility, not distorting reality, not presenting a false image and no shame, 1 by default.

17. a. Imagine meeting an evil version of yourself - your 'dark side' - and describe this person.
You mean that wanker who prefers to not leave his room for months and barks at anyone who dares disturb him and outright defies every good advice because he's sick of it all and just wants to commit suicide?
Had a look at which types are said to suicide. Only 1s, 4s and 5s. Heh. (According to Riso the 6s try suicide but do it in a way they're saved). So that doesn't help to narrow it down... Pathology in 1s is OCD, depression, self destructive behaviors. The longer list is: rigidity, very judgmental, rationalizing, intense feelings of disillusion/depression, outbursts of rage, obsessive thinking, compulsive behaviors, periods of masochistic self-punishment. For 4s pathology is Depression, Narcissistic PD, Avoidant PD. The longer list: oppressive sense of alienation (from self & others), extreme emotional volatility, dependency with unstable relationships (that sounds particularly fun), outbursts of rage/hostility/hatred, chronic long term depression/hopelessness, self-sabotage (including rejecting positive influences), obsessions with death/morbidity/self-hatred. Which do you identify with more when at your worst? Although it is notable that the question was about darkness and you only described self harm. The unhealthy inward facing 4 I knew (an INFJ) would turn outward when at her worst (lash out). It seems you turn from outward facing naturally to inward when not coping which is the opposite.

b. Describe your ideal self.
Someone whose whole being is a humbling reminder of all the things that lie on the edges of human existence; in other words, the things that are keeping us orderly afloat in this chaotic universe. Simultaneously a rustic and an ascetic; someone who knows how to introduce unbridled passion within the limits of civil life. Almost like striking a chord tense enough to stiffen every muscle in the body while also creating a peaceful melody. The embodiment of the struggle behind all that is beautiful and worth protecting.
It's undeniable there is something beyond typical Te & 1 here in style but the topic is still "keeping us orderly" and "the limits of civil life" and tension in the body (a 1 tell) with humble and peace and "protection". You have a beautiful mind -- for a 1 :) The other thing to note is that SX and Fi can be 'passion' -- it's not necessarily a word to immediately associate to 'romantic' 4s. I think you can look like a 4 and certainly have a strong 4 influence in there but I don't believe you're actually a 4.

18. What is your experience with and how do you deal with the following:
a. loneliness:
I don't feel lonely, ever. I sometimes get so horny it almost resembles loneliness but bah, it only takes one orgasm to go away.
b. doubt: If I find doubt where I think it shouldn't be, then get ready to see me at my angriest. I despise uncertainty and that has created some really difficult moments in my relationships with people.
c. boredom: I call my friends and go out with them. If they aren't available, I get up and start cooking random stuff.
d. laziness: I do nothing about it. I prefer to do things only when I feel like doing them. And I still manage to be more disciplined than most people I know. Funny.
e. temper: Mostly I eat it inside. But if it's something really fucking stupid, I lash out. And I feel no regrets about that.
For the relevant things, some Te & 1

19. Which of the 'seven deadly sins' - pride, wrath, sloth, envy, lust, gluttony, avarice - do you relate to most and why? Which do you relate to least and why? Feel free to go into depth about these.
Most: Wrath. I don't get angry often but when I do, I feel like I'm justified. I often let anger take the best of me when vulnerability, a simple confession about my needs, would do far better. I give orders instead of placing requests. And so on.
1, by definition.

Least: Envy. I think too much about myself and dead people to even care what people around me are doing or having.
This is the definition of a non 4. 4s feel envy, 1s feel anger. These emotions aren't a little note on the side. They are definitive for the type. Enneagram speaks to how we emotionally cope with the world. You get angry. I experience fear. There is no getting around these bottom lines. There are a number of similarities between 4s and 1s but if you don't feel envy, you're not a 4, no matter how 4ish you may look. I guess people may see you as acting out in anger (like 4s can) but without envy, you aren't a 4. 1


From my questions:

Even at my lowest, I've never felt the need to be saved. I fancy rescuing people, even when I'm the one who needs rescuing. At worst, I fantasize being a martyr -- that I save something even as I go out.
1. The rescue theme is big with 4s, even at average health levels they're looking for it. And then they can have a 'won't be a follower' thing going on at the same time (rescued but won't follow = ongoing rescuing required) which really makes them fun to deal with (when not healthy).


A friend today remarked, 'Why do you pretend to be a hoodlum when you're actually a disciplined and sophisticated person?'. I probably ironically care about self-image in a very twisted way.
4s pretend to be better than they are (create an image). And here you are doing the exact opposite, 1. Do you know why you do it?


No. Something in me always, as if dutifully, pulls me back to a more meditative state of mind, a state which I believe is where I am at my truest. It's impossible to imagine that one day I can suddenly begin to live without thinking.
Dutifully, eh? :)


No. I'm more likely to be in awe of those better than me than to feel a sort of jealousy that likes to compete. This awe sometimes freezes me in my footsteps and really works against me, and I'd prefer to get rid of this proclivity actually. Today I was playing basketball after a long time with my College's team (all at least 3 years my senior who practiced regularly), and throughout the whole game I just watched them. I was absolutely useless on the court. My only thought was a seething sense of inferiority that kept telling me to step outside, just observe the game, and practice when I'm alone and can take risks freely (that's what I've always done to the point that I absolutely suck at team play). I was too afraid to do something that might disappoint them so I ended up doing nothing which disappointed them anyway. Others of my batch who were equally rusty, on the other hand, only became more competitive and tried even harder. This is the thing that I feel like I'm lacking. I'm competitive but my way of competing requires too much time and is too perfectionist. I feel like I need that competitive hostility.
This strikes me as 5ish (the withdraw, practice, return instinct). You certainly have withdrawing tendencies. And the "seething sense of inferiority" does look either 4ish or 1ish (both types are very self punishing). Some would say this is shame/envy (interesting).



There were a few things I didn't get into. One was my experience with two 4s I knew well (one healthy, one unhealthy). I also never spoke about SX + 4 vs SX + 1 -- if you're confident you're SX (you certainly seem like it), you should recognize yourself in one of those two descriptions. It might be interesting to type up the health levels for both types and get you to pick where you're at. I have tons of notes on 1s, 4s and 5s too if you want to go deeper into some aspects.

I'm curious to know how you/others see you as a 4. I see you're complex and deep but I personally don't see core 4. I could be wrong of course and am open to hearing the case for you being a 4. I'm also curious to know if your 4ishness increases or decreases with stress.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Can you tell me how this "something big happens" works? E4 integrates to a E1 but integration is said to be a conscious choice. E1 disintegrates to e4 under stress so it's possible to behave/look like a 4 when you're still a core 1. I assume the 4 look would be heightened if you also happen to have it in your tritype to begin with.
I'm a fairly laid-back person until some big political event happens. Suddenly I'm reminded of all the things for which I need to struggle. Before that, I procrastinate until it starts to wear me off; but as soon as something that violates my values happens on a large-enough scale, I go in a turbo-mode and start working my ass off until someone or something slaps me out of my hardass mode and reminds me there's still room to breathe. I spend most of my time cultivating my senses, reliving past memories of sights and sounds only, and debating things in my head. This debating is for its aesthetic pleasure; it takes me to the idyllic memories I've crafted of dead philosophers and for the entire duration of those monologues, I feel as calm and serene as I imagine them to have been, pondering things that seem impractical and stupid in the moment but wise and sonorous over a lifetime. But this debating takes a turn when I see the world going downhill. Now it becomes an impatient search for answers, for anything helpful that I can render intelligible. This turbo-mode is where I believe I'm at my best, but certainly not the healthiest.

I don't doubt you have a slice of dark romanticism in you (looks at your current avatar -- yeah, lol), I just don't believe you live there. You speak in 1 language ('duty'), you focus on 1 things (making the world better etc), you seem to see your role in life in a 1 way (teacher, role model, standards setter/enforcer etc). You look outwards, you'd put the world on your shoulders if you could. This is not what a 4 does.
You are right. I don't live there. I've tried, and continue to try from time to time, to live there but I always end up getting agitated. It's like this huge canvas in the middle of my mansion which I like to stare at for hours and hours, but there always comes a time when I grow tired of the fact that it doesn't respond to me. I live in a kind of a limbo. I feel exiled. I crave both beauty and change, and there's seldom any beauty in change. I often catch myself being more sad after a success than after a defeat. And this sadness, I imagine, is analogous to the sadness of a soldier after a victory who knows home is still a far away dream.

This irrational and unconscious insistence on remaining sad without any cogent reason is why I think I might be type 4.

What they feel is what they are (identity). They will cultivate moods to keep a stable identity. They will act out from feelings; 'how dare you make me feel X!' These are not T types. I assume the reason you get the occasional e4 INTJ is bc they don't have well developed Te yet (when enneagram gets set). From this perspective a Te dominant/ENTJ is incredibly unlikely (even if technically possible). I'm aware you're no Gordon Gecko (stereotypical ENTJ) but I still think; seriously?
Ummm...actually, I do begin to think in terms of 'how dare you make me feel X' in intimate relationships but only when I feel like the balance has been on the other side for too long. It's more like a way of getting even, and mostly I transgress.

Who doesn't like Diogenes? 1.
I actually don't. I find him needlessly vulgar.

Unless I'm meant to read this backwards like your way of dealing with the (subconscious?) shame you feel is to act shamelessly, I really don't see how you could be a shame-sensitive 4.
What does shame consist of for 4?

If you were a 4 that would mean you would disintegrate to a 2. In case you don't know how disintegration works: basically it's like an escape/coping mechanism -- when a person is seriously stressed/isn't coping they can shift (unconsciously) from the same level of health from their core type to their disintegration type (this is healthier than dropping health levels). Apparently the more practiced you are at making the jump (had troubles in life previously etc), the more easily you will make the switch and for people who do this habitually they can appear to be the other type (their disintegration type). "Ones under great stress for long periods may mistake themselves for Fours because they will chronically act out many average to unhealthy Four characteristics." (Riso & Hudson).

With your personality I find a 4 to 2 disintegration difficult to imagine. I see 1 core, disintegrates to 4, integrates to 7 (which your vampire hours with intellectuals/artists & a coffee machine brings to mind) as far more likely. The other thing to note is integration isn't taking on the other type (as if it were your core) it's about taking parts from that other type that help you adjust/cope/be more balanced in your core type. So a 1 who integrates to a 7 lets go & relaxes a little. A 4 who integrates to a 1 learns to have a bit more discipline & integrity (but won't be a full 1). A 4 disintegrating to a 2 would become "over-involved and clingy". A 1 moving 'down' to a 4 would become "irrational and moody" (according to Riso & Hudson -- the idea being that whatever was repressed comes out under disintegration). It's also possible you're simply shifting around on your tritype and therefore it isn't an 'acting out' in the way disintegration is.
What's the difference between jumping through tri-type and falling down the disintegration hole?

How does 4 in my tritype comes out as compared to 4 in disintegration?

1 for the reason that this looks a lot like your "security point" which is a temporary move to the average levels of your integration type to let some stress out (healthy coping mechanism). This only happens when you feel sure; "when we feel secure in the strength of our relationship with another person... Ones will sometimes behave like average Sevens but not as often as they tend to act out the average to unhealthy issues of Type Four. Ones are not going to act like average Sevens unless they feel safe to do so" (Riso & Hudson). E7 behaviors is exactly what it looks like with your taking joys from small pleasures/being more spontaneous etc.
I almost habitually act like an E7 when surrounded by strangers I know I'm going to be spending a lot of time with. For example, joining a new school or starting a new course etc. In all these new places, I assume the role of the stand-up comedian and try to get everyone to relax and unite them as fast as possible. And through my quirks, also filter out the people who can see some depth in my humor. In fact, I'm this way in the beginning of every new friendship too. People are surprised to see how quickly I turn silent once actual friendship begins. It seems that I work the opposite way. If I'm comfortably silent in your company, it means I'm truly comfortable with you. If I'm talking too much, it means I'm trying to let people know who I am so they won't bother me when I want to be alone and quiet.

Had a look at which types are said to suicide. Only 1s, 4s and 5s. Heh. (According to Riso the 6s try suicide but do it in a way they're saved). So that doesn't help to narrow it down... Pathology in 1s is OCD, depression, self destructive behaviors. The longer list is: rigidity, very judgmental, rationalizing, intense feelings of disillusion/depression, outbursts of rage, obsessive thinking, compulsive behaviors, periods of masochistic self-punishment. For 4s pathology is Depression, Narcissistic PD, Avoidant PD. The longer list: oppressive sense of alienation (from self & others), extreme emotional volatility, dependency with unstable relationships (that sounds particularly fun), outbursts of rage/hostility/hatred, chronic long term depression/hopelessness, self-sabotage (including rejecting positive influences), obsessions with death/morbidity/self-hatred. Which do you identify with more when at your worst? Although it is notable that the question was about darkness and you only described self harm. The unhealthy inward facing 4 I knew (an INFJ) would turn outward when at her worst (lash out). It seems you turn from outward facing naturally to inward when not coping which is the opposite.
I identify completely with the 1 list but two elements from 4 also fit excellently: Fascination with death/morbidity (never self-hatred though) and self-sabotage.

Least: Envy. I think too much about myself and dead people to even care what people around me are doing or having.
This is the definition of a non 4. 4s feel envy, 1s feel anger. These emotions aren't a little note on the side. They are definitive for the type. Enneagram speaks to how we emotionally cope with the world. You get angry. I experience fear. There is no getting around these bottom lines. There are a number of similarities between 4s and 1s but if you don't feel envy, you're not a 4, no matter how 4ish you may look. I guess people may see you as acting out in anger (like 4s can) but without envy, you aren't a 4. 1
What are the similarities between 4 and 1?


From my questions:
4s pretend to be better than they are (create an image). And here you are doing the exact opposite, 1. Do you know why you do it?
I try to be at both ends, at once. I used to be more polarized in my younger years but as time went on, and I experienced both ends of almost everything, I think I learned the crucial fact that life is possible all across these dichotomies and spectra. In extreme measures, I've felt or have been both stupid and smart, vulgar and decent, ugly and attractive, poor and rich, rejected and understood, tired and motivated. Through all these experiences, I've learned that it's possible to move in the right direction no matter which end of the spectrum you find yourself on. So I try to be or at least act like I'm everywhere on that spectrum so that people can find a leader, or at the very least a companion, in me. I still somehow harbor the image of an elitist though; stupidity just isn't something I can empathize all that well with even if I have been stupid in the past. Perhaps stupidity encompasses the 'wrong' direction for me so I try to pull people out from it as fast as I can by.... acting annoyed and disgusted. It doesn't work to pull most out but for those who admit that there is some intelligence in me, it works wonders. Others just turn their back to me, which really is a weakness although it doesn't feel like one.

In short, I'm just trying not to ostracize parts of reality for personal preferences. My preference is a movement, not a status quo. I'd like to be able to relate with as many people as I can; maybe to theorize about ways of improving for every status quo, or maybe, in cases where I bother to invest more effort, to pull or push people as effectively as I can.

There were a few things I didn't get into. One was my experience with two 4s I knew well (one healthy, one unhealthy). I also never spoke about SX + 4 vs SX + 1 -- if you're confident you're SX (you certainly seem like it), you should recognize yourself in one of those two descriptions. It might be interesting to type up the health levels for both types and get you to pick where you're at. I have tons of notes on 1s, 4s and 5s too if you want to go deeper into some aspects.

I'm curious to know how you/others see you as a 4. I see you're complex and deep but I personally don't see core 4. I could be wrong of course and am open to hearing the case for you being a 4. I'm also curious to know if your 4ishness increases or decreases with stress.
I haven't yet read about sx 4 but I remember reading about sx 1 and calling it the most accurate description of myself. But I've met some people who are every bit as rigid and perfectionist as 1s are generally portrayed to be so I began to doubt whether enneagram 1 is just a part of my personality rather than the whole. Due to my edgy persona on online forums/chats, people are always doubtful of my typing as 1 too. I think my 4ishness increases with stress, if stress is to be any state of mind which can not straight out be called 'happy'.

Thank you for spending so much time on this. I really appreciate this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
I'm a fairly laid-back person until some big political event happens. Suddenly I'm reminded of all the things for which I need to struggle. Before that, I procrastinate until it starts to wear me off; but as soon as something that violates my values happens on a large-enough scale, I go in a turbo-mode and start working my ass off until someone or something slaps me out of my hardass mode and reminds me there's still room to breathe. I spend most of my time cultivating my senses, reliving past memories of sights and sounds only, and debating things in my head. This debating is for its aesthetic pleasure; it takes me to the idyllic memories I've crafted of dead philosophers and for the entire duration of those monologues, I feel as calm and serene as I imagine them to have been, pondering things that seem impractical and stupid in the moment but wise and sonorous over a lifetime. But this debating takes a turn when I see the world going downhill. Now it becomes an impatient search for answers, for anything helpful that I can render intelligible. This turbo-mode is where I believe I'm at my best, but certainly not the healthiest.
I see a lot of 1 with some 4 and possibly 7. If you were 147 (or just go there frequently) that would be 'triple idealist' which would explain a lot. Plus, 147 + SX would cover a wide range and be a particularly intense personality...hmm. Out of curiosity, do you recognize yourself in this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dGvMQvwh1So

You are right. I don't live there. I've tried, and continue to try from time to time, to live there but I always end up getting agitated. It's like this huge canvas in the middle of my mansion which I like to stare at for hours and hours, but there always comes a time when I grow tired of the fact that it doesn't respond to me. I live in a kind of a limbo. I feel exiled. I crave both beauty and change, and there's seldom any beauty in change. I often catch myself being more sad after a success than after a defeat. And this sadness, I imagine, is analogous to the sadness of a soldier after a victory who knows home is still a far away dream.
I'm starting to wonder whether reality is a bore for you bc you are so visionary and so idealistic and so super standards setting (rather than simply bc 4s shut off reality/withdraw/imagine away).

This irrational and unconscious insistence on remaining sad without any cogent reason is why I think I might be type 4.
E1s are known for being frequently depressed (one of the reasons they're confused with 4s). That's not to dismiss this point. It does look a lot like a 4. This needs to be properly accounted for at some point (we'll come back to it).

Ummm...actually, I do begin to think in terms of 'how dare you make me feel X' in intimate relationships but only when I feel like the balance has been on the other side for too long. It's more like a way of getting even, and mostly I transgress.
Interesting both in the 4ishness but also in your openness. You seem to exhibit heathy e4. When we get around to health levels, if your E1 and 4 are exhibiting different levels (or different bands of levels), that will confirm it's tritype (disintegration is meant to be a straight jump).

What does shame consist of for 4?
It's how they feel -- they constantly feel inadequacy and envy and therefore shame. I believe that's meant to be the driving force behind the withdrawing and the creating a false image of their identity; "I'm special/unique and that's why..." (at average/unhealthy levels). Paralysis can happen. I'm not sure if there was a bit of that involved when you were playing basketball the other day (but you responded in a more healthy way).

What's the difference between jumping through tri-type and falling down the disintegration hole? How does 4 in my tritype comes out as compared to 4 in disintegration?
Stress prompts the jump in disintegration (which shouldn't be easy unless done repeatedly before), shifting focus in tritype is easier bc they are a natural part of you already -- they bleed into your core type (you can see the 1 & 3 influences from my tritype in 5 me if you know where to look/what to look for).

I almost habitually act like an E7 when surrounded by strangers I know I'm going to be spending a lot of time with. For example, joining a new school or starting a new course etc. In all these new places, I assume the role of the stand-up comedian and try to get everyone to relax and unite them as fast as possible. And through my quirks, also filter out the people who can see some depth in my humor. In fact, I'm this way in the beginning of every new friendship too. People are surprised to see how quickly I turn silent once actual friendship begins. It seems that I work the opposite way. If I'm comfortably silent in your company, it means I'm truly comfortable with you. If I'm talking too much, it means I'm trying to let people know who I am so they won't bother me when I want to be alone and quiet.
It still looks to me like E1 using another type in it's service but I think E7 needs to get ruled out of possibility of being in your tritype. The last time we did this you seemed to have a big 5 influence. I'm not seeing it this time.

I identify completely with the 1 list but two elements from 4 also fit excellently: Fascination with death/morbidity (never self-hatred though) and self-sabotage.
Yeah you come across as a 1 with a healthy 4 influence (none of that self-hatred/dishonesty/ego protection).

What are the similarities between 4 and 1?
I see quite a few similarities: both display depression/anger, both perfectionists with a tough self-critic, both standards-setters/'judge' and both struggle with acceptance/'letting-go'. Both can be controlling (albeit in very different ways).

They had this at the Enneagram Institute re 1s mistyping as 4s (including similarities):

Since Ones and Fours are so different, it might seem strange that they can be confused. The confusion seems to arise when a One (who may be going to Four under stress) begins to think that he or she is a Four. Invariably, Ones who misidentify themselves as Fours focus almost exclusively on the traits of the unhealthy Four and not on the type as a whole. Because they feel melancholy, depressed, and alienated from others, they may convince themselves that they must be Fours. If Ones have been having more severe difficulties, they may be "shunting" to Four more continuously to avoid falling into even more unhealthy Levels of type One–a far more serious problem. At such times, Ones are typically guilt-ridden, feel worthless, and are subject to excruciating self-contempt and self-hatred. (They may even felt suicidal). Their confusion would clear if they were to look at themselves historically and see both themselves and the Four as a whole.

In the average Levels, Ones usually attend to their responsibilities first, and deal with their feelings later. Their lack of focus on their feelings is actually one of the main causes of their not infrequent depressions. (It is also worth mentioning that Ones are one of the types more vulnerable to depression.) Fours, on the other hand, want to sort out their feelings first, and deal with their duties after they have worked through their emotions. As a result, they may have difficulty mobilizing themselves to meet responsibilities. Most Ones would not give themselves permission to "indulge" their feelings in this way for very long. For lower average Fours, non-productively dwelling on their feelings can be the rule rather than the exception.

Despite these differences, there are similarities. Both tend to be perfectionistic and dissatisfied with things as they are. Both are often frustrated with themselves and their environment, and can be perceived by others as fussy, or picky. Both can be very particular about their environment and the "rules" that they want others to observe in their personal space. ("No one comes in here without removing their shoes.") Both types can be angry: average Ones are frequently critical and irritable, but usually over others' inefficiency or failure to follow agreed upon procedures. Average Fours are often critical and picky over others' lack of awareness of their sensitivities. The may feel irritable about others' apparent coarseness. Similarly, Fours can also become resentful when they feel that others' do not appreciate their depth and creativity. If upset in this way, Fours attempt to punish the offenders by coldly withdrawing emotionally or even physically. They refuse to engage in further communication. Average Ones do not withdraw from people. On the contrary, they press themselves and their opinions on others with increasing urgency as they become angrier at what they see as the irresponsibility of others.

It is also possible for an occasional healthy Four to be mistaken for a One; such a misidentification would, however, be a compliment to the Four since it indicates that he or she has integrated to One and is living with purpose beyond the self. Fortunately for them, some Fours actually do integrate and begin to manifest the reason, moderation, and attraction to objective values of healthy Ones. Further, some Fours may well be teachers and in a teaching situation be called on to move beyond their feelings and interior states. But a Four who has genuinely integrated some of the healthy qualities of type One is still a Four—and besides having either a Three-wing or a Five-wing, other important characteristics, will continue to be present in the Four's overall personality. Contrast a Four such as Anne Rice and a One such as Martha Stewart or a Four such as Tennessee Williams and a One such as Arthur Miller for more insight into these types.

I try to be at both ends, at once. I used to be more polarized in my younger years but as time went on, and I experienced both ends of almost everything, I think I learned the crucial fact that life is possible all across these dichotomies and spectra. In extreme measures, I've felt or have been both stupid and smart, vulgar and decent, ugly and attractive, poor and rich, rejected and understood, tired and motivated. Through all these experiences, I've learned that it's possible to move in the right direction no matter which end of the spectrum you find yourself on. So I try to be or at least act like I'm everywhere on that spectrum so that people can find a leader, or at the very least a companion, in me. I still somehow harbor the image of an elitist though; stupidity just isn't something I can empathize all that well with even if I have been stupid in the past. Perhaps stupidity encompasses the 'wrong' direction for me so I try to pull people out from it as fast as I can by.... acting annoyed and disgusted. It doesn't work to pull most out but for those who admit that there is some intelligence in me, it works wonders. Others just turn their back to me, which really is a weakness although it doesn't feel like one.

In short, I'm just trying not to ostracize parts of reality for personal preferences. My preference is a movement, not a status quo. I'd like to be able to relate with as many people as I can; maybe to theorize about ways of improving for every status quo, or maybe, in cases where I bother to invest more effort, to pull or push people as effectively as I can.
You are interesting. The Enneagram isn't personality in the conventional sense, it's ego fixations/coping mechanisms. A person is meant to move to the highest health level in their type/s and then, ideally, could shift between any of the highest levels (all 9 of them) and even possibly rise above that to have none. The unhealthiest people do the opposite, shifting down to the lowest level in their core type, so fixated on what they believe is real and how they habitually react, they can't break out of their miserable state. It's interesting that you can see so easily 'outside yourself' and value other ways and intuitively want to move. No wonder you come across as having such a dynamic personality.

Interestingly the highest use for 4 is to learn the "fundamental truth that our true self is not a thing with fixed attributes, it is an ever-transforming, ever-renewing process... Fours discover that who they really are is a flow of experience that is much more beautiful, rich, and satisfying than anything they could come up with in their imaginations. The experience of intimate contact with this flow opens us up to deeper contact with others and with more subtle aspects of spiritual reality. This contact always feels personal--precious and of the moment...Thus the Four's special essential quality is the embodiment of... impressionability--the ability to be touched and to grow from experience."(Riso & Hudson)

I haven't yet read about sx 4 but I remember reading about sx 1 and calling it the most accurate description of myself. But I've met some people who are every bit as rigid and perfectionist as 1s are generally portrayed to be so I began to doubt whether enneagram 1 is just a part of my personality rather than the whole. Due to my edgy persona on online forums/chats, people are always doubtful of my typing as 1 too. I think my 4ishness increases with stress, if stress is to be any state of mind which can not straight out be called 'happy'.
I have the SX 4 descriptions here. You aren't going to like them :) To be thorough, I think we should check again that you identify as SX. That your 4ishness increases with stress indicates a move to 4 under stress (from 1, disintegration). I think people, for the most part, have too narrow a view of types and that's where many of the mistypes happen. Not that I'm not open to the possibility you actually are a 4, I am.

Sexual Types -- constant search for connection and attraction to intense experiences (not just sex). Sexual types seek intense contact -- could be deep conversation, high intensity sport etc. Tend to have a wide-ranging, exploratory approach to life but can have difficulty focusing on own needs/priorities. On a subconscious level they are always looking outside themselves for what/who will complete them.

Social types are focused on the group -- they wish to be accepted and needed. They notice hierarchical social structures immediately. They like to know what's going on in the world, 'touch base' with people they know to feel safe, alive, energized.

Self-Pres tends to focus on comfort/security of their environment, they're earthy/practical etc (when healthy).

You seem like a SX, is that still your first instinct of the three? (We'll go through SX descriptions next)

Thank you for spending so much time on this. I really appreciate this.
You're welcome! I'm enjoying it and am happy to stick at it until you feel like you have the right answer :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I see a lot of 1 with some 4 and possibly 7. If you were 147 (or just go there frequently) that would be 'triple idealist' which would explain a lot. Plus, 147 + SX would cover a wide range and be a particularly intense personality...hmm. Out of curiosity, do you recognize yourself in this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dGvMQvwh1So
When I was going over the tritype descriptions some months ago, I actually thought a lot over 145 vs 147. I couldn't decide between the two. In numbers I'd say I related 98% with 145 and 100% with 147. The only reason I chose 145 in the end is because, separately, I relate more with type 5 than type 7. Maybe I'm missing some theoretical groundwork here.

I'm starting to wonder whether reality is a bore for you bc you are so visionary and so idealistic and so super standards setting (rather than simply bc 4s shut off reality/withdraw/imagine away).
I'm only bored of my reality, not reality as a whole. There are always things to change, things I can do, but almost always I'm never in the right place, or at the right time, or in the right mindset, or with the right experience, to do any of that. That's the cause of my frustration with reality. That's why I've had to learn to come to terms with conditional nature of the way reality works. I was always a dreamer; an imaginative kid who'd make huge complicated plots out of one glimpse of a toy he wished for but didn't get. But to realize that there's a possibility of a life where I'd be resigned to that kind of dreaming alone, that took me time. And now, I know it won't be too bad if I really have to live a poet's life.

It's how they feel -- they constantly feel inadequacy and envy and therefore shame. I believe that's meant to be the driving force behind the withdrawing and the creating a false image of their identity; "I'm special/unique and that's why..." (at average/unhealthy levels). Paralysis can happen. I'm not sure if there was a bit of that involved when you were playing basketball the other day (but you responded in a more healthy way).
Ah fuck, I'm guilty of that. There have only been few occasions though, and in all of them, it was my intellect under question. I felt thoroughly inadequate and after a series of unfortunate failings, I comforted myself with 'I have my own ways'. And of course, I later realized that I was utterly wrong about that. Even now, when faced with people far better than me, I'm prone to feeling inadequate and shame but I don't use that excuse anymore. It was a hard lesson to learn but I've mastered it now.

My strategy in every failure is to withdraw and learn on my own pace. The excuse part was useless apart from emotional comfort. I've learned that having the mindset of "One day I'll be able to do it too" works far better than "I'm just different". It was an unhealthy habit I got rid of. Perhaps disintegration?? hmm..

In the average Levels, Ones usually attend to their responsibilities first, and deal with their feelings later. Their lack of focus on their feelings is actually one of the main causes of their not infrequent depressions. (It is also worth mentioning that Ones are one of the types more vulnerable to depression.) Fours, on the other hand, want to sort out their feelings first, and deal with their duties after they have worked through their emotions. As a result, they may have difficulty mobilizing themselves to meet responsibilities. Most Ones would not give themselves permission to "indulge" their feelings in this way for very long. For lower average Fours, non-productively dwelling on their feelings can be the rule rather than the exception.
It's true that I don't allow myself to dwell on my feelings for too long -- not to mention, it sickens me to stagnate --, but whenever I feel that something's emotionally off in me, I prefer to deal with my problem first. I'm quick to take leave from my responsibilities (my attendance in the last 2 years of high school was only 45%). Usually though, I have a high tolerance threshold and can handle many big tasks just fine no matter the other burdens. It's only when stuff gets accumulated and I start to feel like life's doing me wrong that I go on a long leave. That's the point where even hitting a toe in a chair suffices for me to shout 'What the fuck is wrong with you?' ('you' referring to my life here).

My recuperation period lasts until I feel like I'm a changed person, and am really itching for some real-world action.

Despite these differences, there are similarities. Both tend to be perfectionistic and dissatisfied with things as they are. Both are often frustrated with themselves and their environment, and can be perceived by others as fussy, or picky. Both can be very particular about their environment and the "rules" that they want others to observe in their personal space. ("No one comes in here without removing their shoes.") Both types can be angry: average Ones are frequently critical and irritable, but usually over others' inefficiency or failure to follow agreed upon procedures. Average Fours are often critical and picky over others' lack of awareness of their sensitivities. The may feel irritable about others' apparent coarseness. Similarly, Fours can also become resentful when they feel that others' do not appreciate their depth and creativity. If upset in this way, Fours attempt to punish the offenders by coldly withdrawing emotionally or even physically. They refuse to engage in further communication. Average Ones do not withdraw from people. On the contrary, they press themselves and their opinions on others with increasing urgency as they become angrier at what they see as the irresponsibility of others.
Ummm.... I actually relate with both, almost fully. It seems only natural to me to withdraw from people who have no notion of personal space or sensitivities, especially in a group setting. I got into a fight with that ENTJ type 8 I once talked about precisely because he had disturbed my thoughts 5 times and I had also heard plenty of complains from his roommates. It is also very natural to me that people demand what they rightfully deserve. I've had violent reactions to both kinds of transgressions in the past (mostly to the latter kind). But I don't think I'm a very critical person in general. Only people who get very close to me have anything to say about how critical I am, but that's probably because I don't have much to say at all. I hate nitpicking. And I definitely tend to feel uncomfortable if there's someone in a party who won't sit still until every AC in the room is working perfectly fine. It gets in the way of unity. I want everyone in the room to act as if it is their own house, and if now something is malfunctioning, they should understand that it is not because someone intended it to be that way. There has to be that perfect overlap between responsibility, no accident, and lack of justification, for me to kick into the critical mode. I criticize only when the failure occurs because the responsible person didn't take care of it. I don't get angry over an imperfection, I get angry over an imperfection that could very easily be avoided.

It is also possible for an occasional healthy Four to be mistaken for a One; such a misidentification would, however, be a compliment to the Four since it indicates that he or she has integrated to One and is living with purpose beyond the self. Fortunately for them, some Fours actually do integrate and begin to manifest the reason, moderation, and attraction to objective values of healthy Ones. Further, some Fours may well be teachers and in a teaching situation be called on to move beyond their feelings and interior states. But a Four who has genuinely integrated some of the healthy qualities of type One is still a Four—and besides having either a Three-wing or a Five-wing, other important characteristics, will continue to be present in the Four's overall personality. Contrast a Four such as Anne Rice and a One such as Martha Stewart or a Four such as Tennessee Williams and a One such as Arthur Miller for more insight into these types.
Uhh, between Anne Rice and Martha Stewart, I relate only with Anne. Anne comes close to me but her perspectives seem too simplistic and unrefined to me. Between Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller, however, I relate with both. I'm only going by their quotes but so far almost every quote I've read from them resounds with me and my concerns. Tennessee speaks more about my social life, and Arthur speaks more about my personal one.

You are interesting. The Enneagram isn't personality in the conventional sense, it's ego fixations/coping mechanisms. A person is meant to move to the highest health level in their type/s and then, ideally, could shift between any of the highest levels (all 9 of them) and even possibly rise above that to have none. The unhealthiest people do the opposite, shifting down to the lowest level in their core type, so fixated on what they believe is real and how they habitually react, they can't break out of their miserable state. It's interesting that you can see so easily 'outside yourself' and value other ways and intuitively want to move. No wonder you come across as having such a dynamic personality.

Interestingly the highest use for 4 is to learn the "fundamental truth that our true self is not a thing with fixed attributes, it is an ever-transforming, ever-renewing process... Fours discover that who they really are is a flow of experience that is much more beautiful, rich, and satisfying than anything they could come up with in their imaginations. The experience of intimate contact with this flow opens us up to deeper contact with others and with more subtle aspects of spiritual reality. This contact always feels personal--precious and of the moment...Thus the Four's special essential quality is the embodiment of... impressionability--the ability to be touched and to grow from experience."(Riso & Hudson)
I sometimes feel that things in the moment pale in contrast with things in retrospect. And it's because in the moment, there are other things going on in my head; but in retrospect, it's just the thing itself. I have frequent dreams about running like a mad man; running so fast and without a thought that I become entirely absorbed in the sensation of running. Initially, I thought it was some sort of a nightmare but after more dreams about huge moons and trees, I realize that it's really just a craving for more intense sensory experiences. Does this sound like 4?

I have the SX 4 descriptions here. You aren't going to like them :) To be thorough, I think we should check again that you identify as SX. That your 4ishness increases with stress indicates a move to 4 under stress (from 1, disintegration). I think people, for the most part, have too narrow a view of types and that's where many of the mistypes happen. Not that I'm not open to the possibility you actually are a 4, I am.

Sexual Types -- constant search for connection and attraction to intense experiences (not just sex). Sexual types seek intense contact -- could be deep conversation, high intensity sport etc. Tend to have a wide-ranging, exploratory approach to life but can have difficulty focusing on own needs/priorities. On a subconscious level they are always looking outside themselves for what/who will complete them.

Social types are focused on the group -- they wish to be accepted and needed. They notice hierarchical social structures immediately. They like to know what's going on in the world, 'touch base' with people they know to feel safe, alive, energized.

Self-Pres tends to focus on comfort/security of their environment, they're earthy/practical etc (when healthy).

You seem like a SX, is that still your first instinct of the three? (We'll go through SX descriptions next)
Obviously SX. SP doesn't even come close when I forget to take a shower or sleep for weeks. But the few times I indulge in SP-like tasks, like actually sleeping and showering regularly or doing my assignments on time, it feels heavenly. Shame I can never keep that up for too long.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
When I was going over the tritype descriptions some months ago, I actually thought a lot over 145 vs 147. I couldn't decide between the two. In numbers I'd say I related 98% with 145 and 100% with 147. The only reason I chose 145 in the end is because, separately, I relate more with type 5 than type 7. Maybe I'm missing some theoretical groundwork here.
I expect the 7 is from integration but we'll work it out. Have you ever looked into whether you identify more with 4w5 or 4w3? (also possible to have no wings or both wings but that's unusual). I want to check where the 5 influence is coming from.

Here are a bunch of SX 1 & 4 descriptions. Maybe bold what you identify with and underline stuff that is so far off it's bothersome (or whatever you prefer). I'm including a number of different descriptions bc they vary -- I figure it's better to deal with some overlap and see the average overall than have one description that may not be the whole picture and therefore could be misleading. All of these people are reputable in the enneagram community:

Starting with Naranjo:
SX Ones (the countertype of 1s): seek to perfect others -- more a reformer than a perfectionist. Anger potentiates a special intensity of desire both to get what they want and to change other people & society to fit one's ideals. This intensity makes rationalizations imperative. 'A rhinoceros of a person' [think Christopher Hitchens]. 'Why not' (no shame) mindset. Zeal/drive similar to an 8 when they know they're right.

SX Fours (counter-shame): 'Shameless' -- rebel against any shame they may feel in relation to their desires. Envious anger manifests as being very competitive. Outspoken with anger. Neurotic. Self-absorbed. Very vocal about expressing needs; 'I will scream when not satisfied' (worked in childhood but in adulthood people will avoid and so creates a vicious cycle of rejection then more anger/complaining). Biting envy/oral aggression. Wishing with anger. 'I'll cut your head off so I look taller'. Invalidation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Riso & Hudson:
SX One 'Shared Standards': want a flawless relationship with an idealized partner. Long for perfect mate & source of stability in their lives. In this respect they can be mistaken for 4s. They have high expectations of their partner/close friends/family and want to believe the other holds the same standards ('we share these ideals, don't we?'). SX 1s fear the other will fall short, destroying the harmony/perfection of the relationship. This can lead them to push loved ones to meet their standards. They also may have trouble finding someone who meets their standards, trying one relationship after another but always feeling disappointed.

Sexual 1s place great emphasis on fidelity ('love is forever'). Although they do not appear needy they often suffer from well hidden fears of abandonment and a chronic sense of loneliness. The mix of high expectations with abandonment issues can result in a critical, controlling attitude towards the partner ('Don't ever let me down. Don't ever deceive me'). At lower levels they may need to check in on the other's activities & whereabouts. SX 1s feel that they have earned a good relationship, earned their pleasure and feel threatened at the possible loss of one of their few areas of reward.

In the unhealthy range, the Sexual variant endows them with strong desires & appetites but this is difficult to justify to the 1s superego. They may alternate between intense desire and the need to reject that desire. This may lead to both sexual compulsivity and repression. At the same time they may believe the other is the source of their obsessions and want to control the other so that the balance of the relationship can be restored. Less healthy SX 1s are prey to bouts of intense jealousy. Their fears are such that they constantly question/grill the other. In extreme cases they may punish the self or others to purge themselves of their desires.


SX Fours 'Infatuation': the type to most exemplify the romanticism, intensity, and longing for a rescuer [Riso has all six average to unhealthy health level descriptions include 'rescuer'] Can be sweetly vulnerable and impressionable but also aggressive & dynamic, especially in their self expression. There is an assertive, seemingly extroverted component to them and are unlikely to let their romantic fantasies stay fantasies for long. Often turbulent & stormy, their emotional lives revolve around the person they are attracted to. Intense feelings of admiration, longing and hatred for the object of desire can all coexist. Sensual & seductive, they can also be jealous and possessive and they want to be the only person who matters in the other person's life. SX 4s often have severe doubts about their own desirability, so they strive for accomplishments that will make them acceptable to the other (be a great artist or star) while being resentful of those who achieve those things.

Envy is also most clearly visible in this variant. Relationship problems arise bc they often become romantically involved with people who have qualities that 4s admire or want in themselves, but then end up envying and resenting the loved one for having these very qualities. Idealizing the other can quickly shift to rejecting them for their slightest flaws. At the same time SX 4s are often attracted to people who are, for one reason or another, unavailable. They may spend a great deal of time longing to have the desirable other to themselves and detesting anyone who has the other's attention.

In the unhealthy range, intense envy of others can lead to a desire to sabotage them in order to get revenge. Unhealthy SX 4s unconsciously live by the adage 'misery loves company' ('if I'm going to suffer so are you'). They may create competitions and rivalries and feel completely justified in undoing their opponents or in hurting those who have disappointed them. They are prone to rapid shifts in their feelings towards others, even towards their protectors and loved ones. Their emotional chaos may lead them to rash acts of violence against themselves or the people they believe have frustrated their emotional needs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ocean Moonshine
https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/type-stackings/
sx/so (generally)
This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. They may identify so strongly with whatever they’re involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it’s purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other’s buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It’s not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they’re able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.
Motivation: to impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.
Familiar roles: provocateur, activist

Sexual/Social One
The instinctual energy of this subtype is the most at odds with their dominant Oneness. This subtype is the most intense. They are looking for perfection in everyone they are close to, not just their spouses. They can be very charismatic and engaging. They can also be very persuasive, like the social/sexual. If they have an opinion you are going to hear about it. It’s very important for them to be understood. They are outwardly competitive. Like the social/sexual, they too may be mistyped as other enneatypes. The anger that is under the surface with the other instinctual variants of type One is much more likely to be apparent with this subtype. You always know where you stand with them. They can mimic type Eight’s energy in this regard. On the high side, this type is warm and engaging, but on the down side this same energy can bring with it the full brunt of the One’s anger and the need to be right.

Sexual/Social Four
This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sexual Four description (according to Beatrice Chestnut).
In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as competition. These Fours don't feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about themselves.

Sexual Fours believe it's good to be the best. Most people want to present a good image to others, but Sexual Fours don't care very much about image management or being liked. For them, it's better to be superior. They are highly competitive, and their intense focus on competition takes the form of actively striving to show that they are the best.

People with this subtype tend to have an “all or nothing” belief related to success: if success is not all theirs, they are left with nothing. This pattern leads to excesses related to their efforts to achieve success, and it also generates feelings of hate.

Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as overcompensation- a means of being recognized. These Fours like being part of “chosen” group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.

Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype's unconscious instinctual impulses. Sexual Fours' deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others' accomplishments in comparison with their own.

Sexual Fours “make others suffer” because they feel that they have been made to suffer and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain. Naranjo observes that this tendency of this Four can be summed up by the phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.” Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Their relationship to suffering can thus best be understood as a refusal to suffer. This gets expressed as an active insistence on their needs being validated and met. (They want with anger.) More shameless than shameful, Sexual Fours are vocal about expressing their needs; they rebel against any shame connected to their desires. This subtype follows the life philosophy that “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.”

When others experience Sexual Fours as demanding, this can lead to a pattern of rejection and anger: Sexual Fours get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes people to avoid or reject them, and then they get angry about being rejected. This type can thus get trapped in a vicious cycle when rejection leads to protest and protest leads to rejection.

The Sexual Four is more assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Naranjo refers to this Four as the “mad Four” as opposed to the “sad” (Social) Four. These Fours can be very outspoken with their anger because expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger, they don't have to feel their pain anymore.

These Fours may even seek to hurt or punish others as a way of repudiating or minimizing their underlying pain. They feel justified in pointing to others as the source of their deprivation or frustration, which serves as both a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.

Naranjo says that this Four subtype can be the angriest personality among the Enneagram types. They may express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. (This kind of anger was the impulse between the French revolution: “I envy the rich, so I'll organize a revolution.”) And Sexual Fours can be very impulsive. They want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

Naranjo calls this type “Competition,” and Ichazo called it “Hate.” While this type can be both hateful and competitive, it is important to remember that the competition and hate expressed by this Four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. The painful sense of envy felt by the Sexual Four can motivate a wishing with anger, or a sense of “Ive got to get what I need, both to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful, and to feel better about myself with respect to others.” Their competitiveness and anger is a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.

These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody's love, they can be very direct about asking for what they need, or can become “extraordinary”- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior- in an effort to attract it. In line with their natural intensity (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally, like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.

Sexual Fours are most likely to be confused with Type Eights or Sexual Twos. Like Eights, they have easier access to anger than most types, but they differ from Eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Naranjo points out that Eights often don't need to get angry, whereas this Four frequently feels misunderstood or envious, so they may show anger more often. They can also look like Sexual “Aggressive-Seductive” Twos (because both types can be aggressive and seductive in relationships) but the Sexual Two is more oriented toward pleasing others.


Sexual Ones (according to Beatrice Chestnut)
The Sexual One - "Zeal" (Countertype)
While the Self-Preservation One is a perfectionist, and the Social One unconsciously takes on the pose of someone who is "perfect" in modeling to the right way to be, Sexual Ones focus on perfecting others, This One is more of a reformer than a perfectionist. They have a need to improve others, but don't focus on being perfect themselves.

This is the only One subtype that is explicitly angry and so is the countertype of the three One personalities. The Sexual One is impatient, can be invasive, goes for what he or she wants, and has a sense of entitlement. These Ones have an intensity of desire fueled by anger that motivates them to want to improve others. This can be expressed as a sense of excitement, passion, or idealism about the way things could be if people would reform their behavior, or if the reforms they envision were enacted by society. This makes them compelling and vehement.

This character feels entitled in the sense of possessing the mentality of a reformer or a zealot-one who knows how to live or do things better and so feels a right to assert their will over others. Like the mentality of a conqueror, this approach can be rationalized (and made virtuous through the rhetoric of their adherence to a higher moral code or calling.

According to Naranjo, Ichazo gave this subtype the name, "Zeal," meaning "a special intensity of desire." Zeal suggests an intensity or excitement that fuels the desire to connect with others. It also means doing things with care, dedication, and fervor.

This One's anger infuses his desire with a special intensity or urgency and the person has the sense that "I have to have it," or "I have a right to it," or “I have to improve it (society or another person) to make it the way I know it should be."

In the Sexual One, this intensity of desire can support the impulse to reform or perfect specific others or to make the world a better place in the way this One believes it should be. Sometimes, this desire to perfect others grows out of a genuine belief in an enlightened vision of reform or idealism. However, it may at the same time be fueled by this instinctual subtype's need to make others more perfect. One woman I know with this subtype reported that she felt she would be justified in leaving her husband if he did not carry out her suggestions for his improvement. And she felt a need to help him become a better person so she could have a better partner.

In Western culture there can be an anti-sexual or anti-instinctual sentiment-the idea that it's not okay to act on one's desires. For instance, the sinfulness of sex is so pervasive that it can be hard sometimes not to feel improper or naughty if we allow ourselves to freely express our sexual desires. But the Sexual One has a different, more liberated, attitude with regard to sexual desire. There’s a kind of "go for it" mentality that can then necessitate the finding of good reasons to support the rightness of whatever the Sexual One wants to do. Unlike the Self-Preservation Ones, these Ones don't question themselves as much. Instead they are concerned more with making others into the people they think they should be.

These Ones are avengers; they are not afraid of confrontations. They may be containing a murderous rage that they cannot see. Their anger can be like a volcano that erupts. They perceive themselves as strong. They have great strength and determination and can be very brave. They are also impulsive and do things quickly.

Sexual Ones have two sides: a more playful side oriented toward pleasure and an aggressive, angry side. Pain is the emotion they repress the most and the one they find most difficult to show. They may act out their unacknowledged pain by leading a double life as a way of breaking the rules. Some Sexual Ones display "trap-door" behavior, discharging their anger and pain through "bad" acts. An example of this is Eliot Spitzer. As the Attorney General of the State of New York, he crusaded against lawbreakers, going after Wall Street criminals and prostitutes in an effort to reform society. However, he later resigned as the Governor when he was caught having an ongoing relationship with a prostitute himself.

In light of this type of behavior, this One can look like a type Eight. Like Eights they can be energetic, assertive, and strong. These Ones believe the have a right to impose their vision and get what they need, in the same way an Eight might overpower or dominate a situation to impose their own will. But Eights and Ones differ in that Ones are "over-social" and Eights are "under-social."

Sexual Ones bring intensity and energy to relationships. They can be forceful and insistent. They may attempt to reform their partners and friends, conveying the sense of being on a mission or drawing on a higher calling or authority in the things they do. They excel at pointing out what others might need to do to reform their behavior or meet specific standards, but focus less interest and attention in reforming their own behavior, seeing what they do as right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm only bored of my reality, not reality as a whole. There are always things to change, things I can do, but almost always I'm never in the right place, or at the right time, or in the right mindset, or with the right experience, to do any of that. That's the cause of my frustration with reality. That's why I've had to learn to come to terms with conditional nature of the way reality works. I was always a dreamer; an imaginative kid who'd make huge complicated plots out of one glimpse of a toy he wished for but didn't get. But to realize that there's a possibility of a life where I'd be resigned to that kind of dreaming alone, that took me time. And now, I know it won't be too bad if I really have to live a poet's life.
It seems like you shift your type yet the romantic sensibilities remain :)

Do you feel general muscle tension in your body a lot? Do you, in your body, feel yourself holding back anger? Do you physically feel gut reactions to things regularly?

Ah fuck, I'm guilty of that. There have only been few occasions though, and in all of them, it was my intellect under question. I felt thoroughly inadequate and after a series of unfortunate failings, I comforted myself with 'I have my own ways'. And of course, I later realized that I was utterly wrong about that. Even now, when faced with people far better than me, I'm prone to feeling inadequate and shame but I don't use that excuse anymore. It was a hard lesson to learn but I've mastered it now.
Okay, this is genuinely 4ish. Side note: your intellect was under question? I don't see how that's possible :)

My strategy in every failure is to withdraw and learn on my own pace. The excuse part was useless apart from emotional comfort. I've learned that having the mindset of "One day I'll be able to do it too" works far better than "I'm just different". It was an unhealthy habit I got rid of. Perhaps disintegration?? hmm..
Yeah, perhaps. The withdraw, learn, return routine is very 5ish. I do that. That "one day I'll be able to do it too" is what I've been telling myself since I was a kid. It works for me too.

It's true that I don't allow myself to dwell on my feelings for too long -- not to mention, it sickens me to stagnate --, but whenever I feel that something's emotionally off in me, I prefer to deal with my problem first. I'm quick to take leave from my responsibilities (my attendance in the last 2 years of high school was only 45%). Usually though, I have a high tolerance threshold and can handle many big tasks just fine no matter the other burdens. It's only when stuff gets accumulated and I start to feel like life's doing me wrong that I go on a long leave. That's the point where even hitting a toe in a chair suffices for me to shout 'What the fuck is wrong with you?' ('you' referring to my life here).
Yeah, again this sounds 4ish. But then it also just sounds like someone who wasn't coping. And/or someone's inferior Fi saying 'enough, limit reached, I'm coming out'.

Out of these three words: thinking, feeling, action -- which, when normal/healthy, do you do first, second, third (on average).

My recuperation period lasts until I feel like I'm a changed person, and am really itching for some real-world action.
I do the exact same thing.

Ummm.... I actually relate with both, almost fully. It seems only natural to me to withdraw from people who have no notion of personal space or sensitivities, especially in a group setting. I got into a fight with that ENTJ type 8 I once talked about precisely because he had disturbed my thoughts 5 times and I had also heard plenty of complains from his roommates. It is also very natural to me that people demand what they rightfully deserve. I've had violent reactions to both kinds of transgressions in the past (mostly to the latter kind). But I don't think I'm a very critical person in general. Only people who get very close to me have anything to say about how critical I am, but that's probably because I don't have much to say at all. I hate nitpicking. And I definitely tend to feel uncomfortable if there's someone in a party who won't sit still until every AC in the room is working perfectly fine. It gets in the way of unity. I want everyone in the room to act as if it is their own house, and if now something is malfunctioning, they should understand that it is not because someone intended it to be that way. There has to be that perfect overlap between responsibility, no accident, and lack of justification, for me to kick into the critical mode. I criticize only when the failure occurs because the responsible person didn't take care of it. I don't get angry over an imperfection, I get angry over an imperfection that could very easily be avoided.
You have the reasonableness of a One. You want people to behave a certain 'right' way. It's your 'perfecting others' routine, which you even try on this "immovable object" from time to time :) Fours don't try to improve others, bring them up to your (high) level, they want to elevate themselves (in some form) or even bring others down.

I sometimes feel that things in the moment pale in contrast with things in retrospect. And it's because in the moment, there are other things going on in my head; but in retrospect, it's just the thing itself. I have frequent dreams about running like a mad man; running so fast and without a thought that I become entirely absorbed in the sensation of running. Initially, I thought it was some sort of a nightmare but after more dreams about huge moons and trees, I realize that it's really just a craving for more intense sensory experiences. Does this sound like 4?
Do you wish you could stop thinking? I think the huge moon and trees is meant to come from the 4 side -- 5w4s, myself included, frequently talk about a connection to nature we feel/dream about.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I expect the 7 is from integration but we'll work it out. Have you ever looked into whether you identify more with 4w5 or 4w3? (also possible to have no wings or both wings but that's unusual). I want to check where the 5 influence is coming from.
Theoretically, I relate more with 4w5. But from the examples given of these types, 4w3 seems closer. Albert Camus, Marcel Proust, and Walt Whitman, express my own thoughts. On the other hand, I've always found the works of Kafka, Bergman, and Kierkegaard, somehow dry. Although they have had profound influence on me, and I love their works, it still seems to lack vitality. I'm also noticing a strange pattern here: the 4w5 people have accompanied me through my depressions, and 4w3 people have been there at every parole from depression. I don't really see myself in the purely theoretical description of a 4w3 though; I neither suffer from a low self-esteem nor a very high one. I've never been particularly sensual. All my charm consists of.. .I don't know. Others are better equipped to answer that.

For the excerpt below, I'll bold what I always do, underline what I sometimes do, and leave out what I never do. Comments will be in a different font:

Starting with Naranjo:
SX Ones (the countertype of 1s): seek to perfect others -- more a reformer than a perfectionist. Anger potentiates a special intensity of desire both to get what they want and to change other people & society to fit one's ideals. This intensity makes rationalizations imperative. 'A rhinoceros of a person' [think Christopher Hitchens]. 'Why not' (no shame) mindset. Zeal/drive similar to an 8 when they know they're right.

I've used Christopher Hitchens as a shorthand for an introduction before. At the very least, I'd like to be someone like Christopher Hitchens. I love that guy.


SX Fours (counter-shame): 'Shameless' -- rebel against any shame they may feel in relation to their desires. Envious anger manifests as being very competitive. Outspoken with anger. Neurotic. Self-absorbed. Very vocal about expressing needs; 'I will scream when not satisfied' (worked in childhood but in adulthood people will avoid and so creates a vicious cycle of rejection then more anger/complaining). Biting envy/oral aggression. Wishing with anger. 'I'll cut your head off so I look taller'. Invalidation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Riso & Hudson:
SX One: 'Shared Standards': want a flawless relationship with an idealized partner. Long for perfect mate & source of stability in their lives. In this respect they can be mistaken for 4s. They have high expectations of their partner/close friends/family and want to believe the other holds the same standards ('we share these ideals, don't we?'). SX 1s fear the other will fall short, destroying the harmony/perfection of the relationship. This can lead them to push loved ones to meet their standards. They also may have trouble finding someone who meets their standards, trying one relationship after another but always feeling disappointed.

Sexual 1s place great emphasis on fidelity ('love is forever'). Although they do not appear needy they often suffer from well hidden fears of abandonment and a chronic sense of loneliness. The mix of high expectations with abandonment issues can result in a critical, controlling attitude towards the partner ('Don't ever let me down. Don't ever deceive me'). At lower levels they may need to check in on the other's activities & whereabouts. SX 1s feel that they have earned a good relationship, earned their pleasure and feel threatened at the possible loss of one of their few areas of reward.

In the unhealthy range, the Sexual variant endows them with strong desires & appetites but this is difficult to justify to the 1s superego. They may alternate between intense desire and the need to reject that desire. This may lead to both sexual compulsivity and repression. At the same time they may believe the other is the source of their obsessions and want to control the other so that the balance of the relationship can be restored. Less healthy SX 1s are prey to bouts of intense jealousy. Their fears are such that they constantly question/grill the other. In extreme cases they may punish the self or others to purge themselves of their desires.


SX Fours 'Infatuation': the type to most exemplify the romanticism, intensity, and longing for a rescuer [Riso has all six average to unhealthy health level descriptions include 'rescuer'] Can be sweetly vulnerable and impressionable but also aggressive & dynamic, especially in their self expression. There is an assertive, seemingly extroverted component to them and are unlikely to let their romantic fantasies stay fantasies for long. Often turbulent & stormy, their emotional lives revolve around the person they are attracted to. Intense feelings of admiration, longing and hatred for the object of desire can all coexist. Sensual & seductive, they can also be jealous and possessive and they want to be the only person who matters in the other person's life. SX 4s often have severe doubts about their own desirability, so they strive for accomplishments that will make them acceptable to the other (be a great artist or star) while being resentful of those who achieve those things.

Envy is also most clearly visible in this variant. Relationship problems arise bc they often become romantically involved with people who have qualities that 4s admire or want in themselves, but then end up envying and resenting the loved one for having these very qualities. Idealizing the other can quickly shift to rejecting them for their slightest flaws. At the same time SX 4s are often attracted to people who are, for one reason or another, unavailable. They may spend a great deal of time longing to have the desirable other to themselves and detesting anyone who has the other's attention.

In the unhealthy range, intense envy of others can lead to a desire to sabotage them in order to get revenge. Unhealthy SX 4s unconsciously live by the adage 'misery loves company' ('if I'm going to suffer so are you'). They may create competitions and rivalries and feel completely justified in undoing their opponents or in hurting those who have disappointed them. They are prone to rapid shifts in their feelings towards others, even towards their protectors and loved ones. Their emotional chaos may lead them to rash acts of violence against themselves or the people they believe have frustrated their emotional needs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ocean Moonshine
https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/type-stackings/
sx/so (generally)
This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. They may identify so strongly with whatever they’re involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it’s purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other’s buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It’s not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they’re able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.
Motivation: to impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.
Familiar roles: provocateur, activist


The Motivations here hit real close.

Sexual/Social One
The instinctual energy of this subtype is the most at odds with their dominant Oneness. This subtype is the most intense. They are looking for perfection in everyone they are close to, not just their spouses. They can be very charismatic and engaging. They can also be very persuasive, like the social/sexual. If they have an opinion you are going to hear about it. It’s very important for them to be understood. They are outwardly competitive. Like the social/sexual, they too may be mistyped as other enneatypes. The anger that is under the surface with the other instinctual variants of type One is much more likely to be apparent with this subtype. You always know where you stand with them. They can mimic type Eight’s energy in this regard. On the high side, this type is warm and engaging, but on the down side this same energy can bring with it the full brunt of the One’s anger and the need to be right.

Sexual/Social Four
This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sexual Four description (according to Beatrice Chestnut).
In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as competition. These Fours don't feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about themselves.

Sexual Fours believe it's good to be the best. Most people want to present a good image to others, but Sexual Fours don't care very much about image management or being liked. For them, it's better to be superior. They are highly competitive, and their intense focus on competition takes the form of actively striving to show that they are the best.

People with this subtype tend to have an “all or nothing” belief related to success: if success is not all theirs, they are left with nothing. This pattern leads to excesses related to their efforts to achieve success, and it also generates feelings of hate.

Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as overcompensation- a means of being recognized. These Fours like being part of “chosen” group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.

Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype's unconscious instinctual impulses. Sexual Fours' deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others' accomplishments in comparison with their own.

Sexual Fours “make others suffer” because they feel that they have been made to suffer and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain. Naranjo observes that this tendency of this Four can be summed up by the phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.” Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Their relationship to suffering can thus best be understood as a refusal to suffer. This gets expressed as an active insistence on their needs being validated and met. (They want with anger.) More shameless than shameful, Sexual Fours are vocal about expressing their needs; they rebel against any shame connected to their desires. This subtype follows the life philosophy that “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.”

When others experience Sexual Fours as demanding, this can lead to a pattern of rejection and anger: Sexual Fours get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes people to avoid or reject them, and then they get angry about being rejected. This type can thus get trapped in a vicious cycle when rejection leads to protest and protest leads to rejection.

The Sexual Four is more assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Naranjo refers to this Four as the “mad Four” as opposed to the “sad” (Social) Four. These Fours can be very outspoken with their anger because expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger, they don't have to feel their pain anymore.

These Fours may even seek to hurt or punish others as a way of repudiating or minimizing their underlying pain. They feel justified in pointing to others as the source of their deprivation or frustration, which serves as both a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.

Naranjo says that this Four subtype can be the angriest personality among the Enneagram types. They may express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. (This kind of anger was the impulse between the French revolution: “I envy the rich, so I'll organize a revolution.”) And Sexual Fours can be very impulsive. They want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

Naranjo calls this type “Competition,” and Ichazo called it “Hate.” While this type can be both hateful and competitive, it is important to remember that the competition and hate expressed by this Four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. The painful sense of envy felt by the Sexual Four can motivate a wishing with anger, or a sense of “Ive got to get what I need, both to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful, and to feel better about myself with respect to others.” Their competitiveness and anger is a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.

These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody's love, they can be very direct about asking for what they need, or can become “extraordinary”- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior- in an effort to attract it. In line with their natural intensity (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally, like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.

Sexual Fours are most likely to be confused with Type Eights or Sexual Twos. Like Eights, they have easier access to anger than most types, but they differ from Eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Naranjo points out that Eights often don't need to get angry, whereas this Four frequently feels misunderstood or envious, so they may show anger more often. They can also look like Sexual “Aggressive-Seductive” Twos (because both types can be aggressive and seductive in relationships) but the Sexual Two is more oriented toward pleasing others.


Sexual Ones (according to Beatrice Chestnut)
The Sexual One - "Zeal" (Countertype)
While the Self-Preservation One is a perfectionist, and the Social One unconsciously takes on the pose of someone who is "perfect" in modeling to the right way to be, Sexual Ones focus on perfecting others, This One is more of a reformer than a perfectionist. They have a need to improve others, but don't focus on being perfect themselves.

This is the only One subtype that is explicitly angry and so is the countertype of the three One personalities. The Sexual One is impatient, can be invasive, goes for what he or she wants, and has a sense of entitlement. These Ones have an intensity of desire fueled by anger that motivates them to want to improve others. This can be expressed as a sense of excitement, passion, or idealism about the way things could be if people would reform their behavior, or if the reforms they envision were enacted by society. This makes them compelling and vehement.

This character feels entitled in the sense of possessing the mentality of a reformer or a zealot-one who knows how to live or do things better and so feels a right to assert their will over others. Like the mentality of a conqueror, this approach can be rationalized (and made virtuous through the rhetoric of their adherence to a higher moral code or calling.

According to Naranjo, Ichazo gave this subtype the name, "Zeal," meaning "a special intensity of desire." Zeal suggests an intensity or excitement that fuels the desire to connect with others. It also means doing things with care, dedication, and fervor.

This One's anger infuses his desire with a special intensity or urgency and the person has the sense that "I have to have it," or "I have a right to it," or “I have to improve it (society or another person) to make it the way I know it should be."

In the Sexual One, this intensity of desire can support the impulse to reform or perfect specific others or to make the world a better place in the way this One believes it should be. Sometimes, this desire to perfect others grows out of a genuine belief in an enlightened vision of reform or idealism. However, it may at the same time be fueled by this instinctual subtype's need to make others more perfect. One woman I know with this subtype reported that she felt she would be justified in leaving her husband if he did not carry out her suggestions for his improvement. And she felt a need to help him become a better person so she could have a better partner.

In Western culture there can be an anti-sexual or anti-instinctual sentiment-the idea that it's not okay to act on one's desires. For instance, the sinfulness of sex is so pervasive that it can be hard sometimes not to feel improper or naughty if we allow ourselves to freely express our sexual desires. But the Sexual One has a different, more liberated, attitude with regard to sexual desire. There’s a kind of "go for it" mentality that can then necessitate the finding of good reasons to support the rightness of whatever the Sexual One wants to do. Unlike the Self-Preservation Ones, these Ones don't question themselves as much. Instead they are concerned more with making others into the people they think they should be.

These Ones are avengers; they are not afraid of confrontations. They may be containing a murderous rage that they cannot see. Their anger can be like a volcano that erupts. They perceive themselves as strong. They have great strength and determination and can be very brave. They are also impulsive and do things quickly.

Sexual Ones have two sides: a more playful side oriented toward pleasure and an aggressive, angry side. Pain is the emotion they repress the most and the one they find most difficult to show. They may act out their unacknowledged pain by leading a double life as a way of breaking the rules. Some Sexual Ones display "trap-door" behavior, discharging their anger and pain through "bad" acts. An example of this is Eliot Spitzer. As the Attorney General of the State of New York, he crusaded against lawbreakers, going after Wall Street criminals and prostitutes in an effort to reform society. However, he later resigned as the Governor when he was caught having an ongoing relationship with a prostitute himself.

In light of this type of behavior, this One can look like a type Eight. Like Eights they can be energetic, assertive, and strong. These Ones believe the have a right to impose their vision and get what they need, in the same way an Eight might overpower or dominate a situation to impose their own will. But Eights and Ones differ in that Ones are "over-social" and Eights are "under-social."

Sexual Ones bring intensity and energy to relationships. They can be forceful and insistent. They may attempt to reform their partners and friends, conveying the sense of being on a mission or drawing on a higher calling or authority in the things they do. They excel at pointing out what others might need to do to reform their behavior or meet specific standards, but focus less interest and attention in reforming their own behavior, seeing what they do as right.
Do you feel general muscle tension in your body a lot? Do you, in your body, feel yourself holding back anger? Do you physically feel gut reactions to things regularly?
Yes, but only when I'm at the best of my mental health. Mostly though I have a headache so I try to be as expedient with physical energy as possible. But when I get going at something, I feel that tension. It's almost like a signal now; when I want to get serious about something, I stiffen up, and vice-versa. And it's not just getting serious about physical activity. I approach mental enterprises in the same way.

Okay, this is genuinely 4ish. Side note: your intellect was under question? I don't see how that's possible :)
Trust me, there are waaaaay smarter people. I've been with a few of them. It's simultaneously suffocating and enlightening (more to the latter as time goes on).

Out of these three words: thinking, feeling, action -- which, when normal/healthy, do you do first, second, third (on average).
Think, act, and then feel. That's how it is even when I'm unhealthy. I can physically feel my emotions lagging behind my thoughts and action. My emotions are rarely available in the moment.

You have the reasonableness of a One. You want people to behave a certain 'right' way. It's your 'perfecting others' routine, which you even try on this "immovable object" from time to time :) Fours don't try to improve others, bring them up to your (high) level, they want to elevate themselves (in some form) or even bring others down.
Yeah, I'm noticing that difference in me and the four descriptions. When confronted with people better than me, my first impulse is not to compete with them. It's to get their approval, make them think that I'm worth their time. And once I'm on their side, I want to be of some use to them; teach and learn, that is. I only get the competitive urge when I feel completely useless.

Do you wish you could stop thinking? I think the huge moon and trees is meant to come from the 4 side -- 5w4s, myself included, frequently talk about a connection to nature we feel/dream about.
As long as I can quench my thirst in dreams, no. Life's too short to not think.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
@Stawker I noticed the change to bolded over ever square inch of the One SX description and almost none on the Four SX. Does this mean we're done with 'am I a One or a Four?' and we're down to double checking tritype now? I know we still have to answer the 'why do you get fixated on being sad like a four' question -- I thought we'd try to answer it after confirming your tritype first.

Theoretically, I relate more with 4w5. But from the examples given of these types, 4w3 seems closer. Albert Camus, Marcel Proust, and Walt Whitman, express my own thoughts. On the other hand, I've always found the works of Kafka, Bergman, and Kierkegaard, somehow dry. Although they have had profound influence on me, and I love their works, it still seems to lack vitality. I'm also noticing a strange pattern here: the 4w5 people have accompanied me through my depressions, and 4w3 people have been there at every parole from depression. I don't really see myself in the purely theoretical description of a 4w3 though; I neither suffer from a low self-esteem nor a very high one. I've never been particularly sensual. All my charm consists of.. .I don't know. Others are better equipped to answer that.
It's an interesting problem to work out bc we suspect you have 5 in your tritype so the 4w5 may be picking up the five wing from there on the potentially false positive side and for a potential false negative, it just so happens that the 3 descriptions are pretty bad so there can be a downplay of 3. SX 3 descriptions are better but still too shallow/narrow and they are skewed towards females (and I don't mean XNTJ females either). The idea behind 3 SX is archetypal masculinity/femininity but they don't separate what that would look like for each (or keep it purely general) which strikes me as missing the entire point they're making!

I'd like to put down the clean type 3 SX and type 5 SX descriptions to see how much bolded that returns (we can look at 4w3 & 4w5 tomorrow). When you read the 3 SX descriptions below, remember that the spirit is masculinity and being charming/attractive with that in the widest possible sense (or what, if anything, you do in that regard). Yeah, some SX 3 men might live at the gym to make that happen, others will use things other than their looks to draw people in with their masculinity (personality/strength/masculine charm/leadership etc).

E3 SX is meant to be deeper, Naranjo specifically said not Hollywood version of femininity/masculinity -- less flashy/shallow, more traditional/grounded in spirit. It's still meant to be about connection/intensity/merging and you can't do that with a couple of narcissists glued to their mirrors. I have no idea why none of these 3 SX descriptions point out the obvious either: masculine-feminine polarity creates intense tension/desire and a structure to connect/merge that is more 'team'/'one'/'ideal', less competitive/divided (for compatible SX types anyway). Of all the ways for an SX type to get their kicks (on the enneagram), this is the most obvious one imo. The simplest too: boy + girl.

Even with all those caveats (and since I'm a 3 SX personally), I still must say, these 3 SX descriptions are terrible. It's like they simply can't grasp the essence of it. Maybe they are trying to cover too much ground. The notable thing is that this is the only SX heart type (2, 3, 4) that isn't prideful. I think a healthy/secure SX 3 quietly knows the value of whatever they have that can attract a mate but they don't even need to mention it. They'll do what you did with your modest "others are better equipped to answer" move. I could go on but you get the idea -- read between the lines while reading the 3 SX one in particular.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 SX

Naranjo -- 'Masculine or Feminine' -- tend to identify this way but not in a Hollywood appearance only way, more traditional masculine/feminine in a 'passion for family/please partner' way. Achieves in service of others [3s are an 'earning' type] Charismatic, excels in looking good to attract others who then become the focal point of their efforts. The most emotional 3, can be shy but can support with great enthusiasm & dedication.


Riso/Hudson
'The Catch'
SX 3s are characterized by a powerful desire to be desired. This is not just sexual desirability but an overall drive to be valued and wanted. They work at developing an appealing, alluring image, striving to become the ideal of their gender and often enjoy helping others maximize their attractiveness as well. SX 3s want to be the kind of person that their love interest would want to show off to his/her friends. Whether male or female they tend to cultivate whatever personal qualities they feel will get others interested in them. They can be seductive, but unlike 2s who seduce by lavishing attention on the other, 3s seduce by drawing attention to their own exceptional qualities -- the type to work out/find the right look/carefully groom etc.

SX 3s often know how to attract mates, but they may not know how to sustain relationships. As SX types they possess a strong desire for intimacy, but as 3s they fear deep emotion connection. They may attempt to achieve emotional intimacy through sexual connection, but in the lower levels, fears of their own undesirability will cause them to reject even people they deeply care about. In some cases, they may use sexual conquests to dispel fears of being unattractive. Less healthy SX 3s also tend to be exhibitionists -- wanting to display themselves either to seduce others or to reassure themselves that they are attractive and valued.

In the unhealthy levels,SX 3s can become caught up in promiscuity. Underneath the surface, they are extremely vulnerable but tend to strike out at others who question their value in any way. Slights to their narcissism, real or imagined, can lead to vindictiveness, sexual rage and jealousy, often out of all proportion to their actual disappointments.


Oceans Moonshine
Sexual/Social 3s
The focus of this subtype is less on material gain. The basic fear for this type is loss of intimate love. The sex/soc subtype, like the sex/self-pres, lacks trust in their intimates. Because they feel unworthy of true love, they don’t believe that anyone can love them solely for themselves. Therefore, they continuously strive to hold onto their intimates’ admiration, deluding themselves that if they are admired, they may become worthy of love. They do this through vigorous maintenance of their appearance, achievements, etc. Ageing is often especially difficult for this subtype.

This insecurity leads to an incessant need for reassurance from intimates, in the form of words of affirmation or time spent together (to the exclusion of others). This insatiable need often leads to intense jealousy, which only serves to distance others from them, thus erroneously affirming the Three’s basic fear that they are unworthy of true love. While they share a lot with the sex/self-pres Three, the secondary social instinct adds an element of competition when it comes to questions of desirability. This subtype likes to be seen as the alpha male or alpha female.

When the sex/soc is healthier, they realize this competition is self-defeating. They can take comfort in the thought that another person’s success and attention do not take away their worth in any way.


Sexual Threes (according to Beatrice Chestnut)
The Sexual Three - "Charisma"
The victory or goal that the Sexual Three subtype is interested in (that expresses this Three’s vanity) is one of sex appeal and beauty rather than money or prestige-but they are just as competitive in pursuing these goals as a business executive is in work matters. In this Three, vanity is not denied (as with the Self-Preservation Three) or embraced (like the Social Three); rather, it's somewhere in between, being employed in the service of creating an attractive image and promoting important others.

The Sexual Three is sweet and shy and not as extroverted as the Social Three-especially when it comes to speaking about himself. It's hard for these Threes to promote themselves, so they often put the focus on others they want to support.

Although they are just as capable as the other Threes of achieving worldly success through competence and hard work, these Threes don't feel the need to achieve goals in the external world because their focus is much more on pleasing and making themselves attractive as a way of earning love. They see their accomplishments in the successes and happiness of the people around them.

Although Ichazo called this type "Masculinity/Femininity," Naranjo explains that this is not Hollywood-style masculinity or femininity, or even necessarily a very sexualized masculinity or femininity This type is more concerned with having an attractive presentation as a man or a woman-and, subtly at times, with pleasing others by being attractive in a classically masculine or feminine way. And while Threes are heart types, in this subtype the pleasing may occur less through emotional connection or sexual seductiveness and more through a mental connection or enthusiastic support. Naranjo changed the name to "Charisma" to reflect the special way Sexual Threes motivate and excite the admiration of others through a quality of "personal magnetism."

Sexual Threes achieve within relationships. These Threes are pleasers and helpers; they tend to work hard in support of someone else, expending a lot of energy in promoting others. Sexual Threes can be very ambitious and hardworking, but it’s always to make someone else look good. Often this Three doesn't seem like a Three because they are not so focused on their own status and achievement, but for them it's more about being attractive and supporting others-it's enough for them to be beautiful [this is so female aimed], they don't have to achieve to get love. It's the pleasing that brings approval or love, so they don't have to be conventional achievers. [Like XNTJ women are going to pass on achieving things outside of our relationship just bc we don't have to]

Sexual Threes put a lot of energy into seducing and pleasing others. They may have a fear of disappointing others, and so they justify themselves with excuses to avoid confrontation. People with this subtype may have fantasies about the "ideal partner," and they may want to change their partner to be like they would like him or her to be. They may have fantasies of waiting for "Prince Charming" (or "Princess Charming") and living "happily ever after."

These Threes tend to be oriented toward pleasing others in the sense of having a family or team mentality. They may focus narrowly on what is good for the family (at home or at work) and project the image of someone who is good in this way.

Because so much depends on their being attractive to others, Sexual Threes think they need to be good and perfect to be loved. They tend to be very helpful to prove their lovability-they aspire to have the image of the "best lover" or the "perfect wife."

Attaining love or desire from others becomes a goal, an achievement, a conquest for Sexual Threes. To support this, they have a passion for projecting a handsome, pretty, or sexy image. They feel an urgent need to be looked at and recognized as attractive by people they want to attract (romantically)-perhaps reflecting a lack of attention and admiration from their mother or father.

In this Three there is a sense of disconnection from feelings and from the real self. They often have no real contact with themselves or others. This disconnection is emotional, sexual, and physical. One Three with this subtype commented, "it's like we put out an 'Out to Lunch' sign." This is the main issue for Sexual Threes. They typically experience a feeling of emptiness, like a void. This Three experiences an empty feeling in terms of having a lack of a clear sense of self or identity. This is related to the fact that the Sexual Three experiences difficulty in being, feeling, and expressing authentically. While they may be very attractive, they may also have low self-esteem and be unable to love themselves. In the face of this, they may "put on a good face" and look sweet and complacent while hiding their strengths as a way to look good for others.

The Sexual Three is the most emotional of the Threes, so you are more likely to see them expressing their feelings. This Three doesn't wear the kind of social mask that a Social Three wears. There is a deep sadness within the Sexual Three. They often had a difficult early life, and they use "disconnections" from themselves as a way to forget, or to make up for and minimize, past abuses. There is a lot of fear of feeling emotional pain and sorrow, and so they learn to disconnect from their deeper emotional experience. They also experience criticism as very threatening, as it destroys their mask of being a "perfectly good person."

Sexual Threes can look like Twos or Sevens. They can look like Twos because they seek to connect with others through being pleasing and attractive. They differ from Twos, however, in that they focus more on a specific image of physical attractiveness and less on shape-shifting, prideful self-elevation, and meeting emotional needs. They may be mistaken for Sevens in that they tend to be positive and enthusiastic in their support of others. They can be excellent cheerleaders. However, while Sevens are fundamentally self-referencing, Threes reference others as a way of determining how to be. Threes are more disconnected from themselves, while Sevens typically know what they need and want.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 SX (the countertype)

Naranjo, 'Confidence' -- tend to be very passionate with/about one person ('frequently someone they can't find'). They search for absolute love, the exemplar person who will be with them no matter what (beyond normal dedication). One of the most Romantic types. This Romanticism gives a vibrant inner life. They trust that special someone with their private inner world. Only open to deep intimacy with one or two people.


Riso/Hudson
5 SX 'This Is My World'
In the average range, the detachment and avoidance characteristics of Fives clash with sexual variants desire for intense connection. SX 5s like sharing secret information with their intimates. But they are always experiencing some degree of tension between pursuing those they are attracted to and lacking confidence in their social skills. Thus SX fives are driven to engage intensely with people, although often with anxiety and a tendency to withdraw at a moment's notice. They are more affable and talkative than the other two instincts of the type, but they can cause others surprise and consternation when they unexpectedly drop out and disappear for periods of time. On the other hand, when romantically interested in someone, they can become extremely open and merged, more like 9s. On the other, when they feel unappreciated or misunderstood, they can quickly become emotionally distant. Powerful connections with others alternate with long periods of isolation.

The SX instinct mixes with intellect to produce intense imagination. SX 5s create alternative realities -- private "worlds" of various kinds -- that they present to potential intimates. They are looking for the ideal mate, the mate for life, who will not be turned off by their strangeness ('Does this intensity frighten you?) Strong sexuality [the most sexual of all the enneagram types according to Riso] gives SX 5s the impetus to risk emotional contact and also provides relief from their constant mental activity. It becomes a way to ground themselves. But in less healthy 5s, the mix of imagination and sexuality can become dark & fetishistic: they can become lost in disturbing fantasies & dreams.

In the unhealthy range, longing for lost love and feelings of rejection can lead SX 5s into isolation and self destructive behavior. They are often drawn, through voyeurism, into dangerous lifestyles and can be attracted to society's underbelly.


Ocean Moonshine
Sexual/social 5s
This subtype is the most dramatic of the instinctual stackings of type Five. They are less concerned than the social/sexual subtype with social rejection, but take rejection from intimates very much to heart. They have a strong desire to express themselves, and can be the most Four-like of all the instinctual subtypes of type Five.

Not only do they have a strong desire to merge with a significant other, they also want to make their mark in the larger social sphere. The intensity, aggression, counterphobic stance and desire to connect deeply, all combine with the social instinct to produce a highly charged personality. This subtype can become quite accomplished if they are able to form an intimate connection with someone who will help ground them and provide them with a feeling of security. When Fives of this subtype feel a sense of safety due to healthy intimate relationships, they will want to share whatever knowledge, talent or insight they may have.

When unhealthy, this subtype can be very dark, pessimistic and the most confrontational of all the subtypes of Five. They can also become very arrogant.


Sexual 5s - Beatrice Chestnut
Sexual Fives (the countertype)
In the Sexual Five, avarice is expressed through an ongoing search for a connection that will satisfy their need for an experience of the most perfect, safest, and most satisfying (idealized) union. This Five may look like the other two five subtypes on the outside, having all the regular five inhibitions and introversion in the area of relationship, but the sexual five places a special value on one-to-one or intimate connections.

This five has a passion for finding a special person they can connect with deeply, sometimes a person they cannot find or have yet to find. Like the social five, this five also searches for a high ideal, but this five looks for the ideal in the realm of love. This five feels a need to find a high exemplar of absolute love. Like the search for the extraordinary of the social five, the ideal kind of connection this five searches for represents a very high standard. Sexual fives seek something like the ultimate mystical union- an experience of the divine in human relationships. And this can also happen with the search for good friends or a spiritual teacher.

While social and self-preservation fives are more removed from their emotions, the sexual five is intense, romantic, and more emotionally sensitive. This five suffers more, resembles the four more, and has more overt desires. This is the countertype among the fives. It may not be completely obvious from the outside, however- they may seem very much like other fives until you touch their romantic spot and inspire their romantic feelings.

While they can appear reserved or laconic on the outside, sexual fives have a vibrant internal life that is highly romantic. There are examples of sexual five artists- like Chopin, who Naranjo notes is the most romantic of the classical composers- who display extreme emotional expressiveness through their artistic creations but are cut off in many ways from others in the everyday world.

Sexual fives live in an inner world filled with ideation, theories, and utopian fantasies about finding unconditional love. They live for a couple's love as a kind of ultimate or ideal experience of connection. However, what they search for represents an idealized form of relationship that may not exist in the human world. [Or we can just date another 5 SX, duh]

Trust is the basic issue with the sexual five. The name Naranjo ascribes to this subtype is “confidence,” which has a special meaning related to an ability to trust the other, and suggests a search for the person who will be with you no matter what, the partner (or friend) that you can trust with all your secrets. Confidence is the kind of ideal that makes sexual fives very romantic deep inside. They search for an idealized version of love and relationship as a source of meaning in life.

The sexual five's search for a high exemplar of connection is so exacting that it's very hard to pass their test with consistency if you are the person in relationship with them. It's very easy for the sexual five to be disappointed. This subtype has such a great need to trust in the other that the need is not easily satisfied, and so there can be a lot of testing in their relationships.

Fives tend to be a private people, but this five has a great need for intimacy under the right circumstances--if they can find a person they can really trust to love them despite their flaws. This sub-type expresses a need to be completely transparent with their partner, and they need their partner to be very open as well; this ideal of trust and intimacy is not easy to find.

Because of this, sexual fives can get very picky about the people they have relationships with, and they can become frustrated when they discover that the other is human.

If a partner does not live up to their expectations of transparency and openness, they tend to feel disappointed and--because they have a fear of being hurt by others--to isolate themselves.

Some sexual fives say that their search for an ultimate kind of connection does not only center on relationship with a lover or life partner. One five said he related to the idea of “emotional promiscuity,” saying, “I want ultimate contact with a lot of people,” one at a time.

And some fives with this sub-type report that although they feel guarded in the face of too much emotional intensity, they have a deep desire for intimacy with a trusted few. One five with this sub-type described especially appreciating the experience of “clicking” with someone-- the feeling of having chemistry with another person--saying that when he felt this he could become infatuated very quickly.

Although the sexual five may look like a type four, this five is still quite five-ish, so is not likely to be mistaken for a four. And while this sub-type is the five counter-type and seeks to manifest an ideal of intimacy, it may be hard to discern the difference between this five and the other two fives, as all of the five sub-types experience a need to withdraw. However, this five has a need to find a special relationship that will provide both safety and an ultimate kind of love.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While we're at it, let's knock out the possibility of you having 7 in your tritype (I suspect it's a place you visit than live).

7 SX

Naranjo -- 'Heavenly, not Earthly': passion to imagine something better than reality ---> idealization. Passion to dream, go for imagined rather than ordinary, not so interesting reality. Need for rose colored glasses. Tend to look at things with the optimism of a person in love. Gluttony for things of the higher world. Tendency to display too much optimism & enthusiasm.


Riso/Hudson
SX 7 'The Neophile'
In the average range SX 7s are constantly looking for something new and beyond the ordinary; like 4s, they tend to reject the mundane. In all their activities/interactions, they want to experience the intense charge of being alive. They see life through heightened imagination, idealizing themselves, their relationships, and reality. They often have a wide ranging curiosity and interests and are fascinated by new ideas and topics they see as being on the cutting edge. SX 7s are magnetized by people whom they find interesting or refreshing. When the radar of their sexual instinct locks onto such a person, they do not hesitate to approach the person with charm and genuine interest. They feel temporarily dazzled and hypnotized by the object of their curiosity and may induce similar feelings in others. Sexual 7s enjoy the excitement of fantasizing about future adventures and shared interests with the new person. They love wild ideas, wit, and humor -- their minds move very quickly, but this can also cause restlessness with themselves and their relationships. [Sounds a lot like Ne dominants which are usually 7s]

Less healthy SX 7s can become fickle -- both with their interests and with their affections. They fear commitment, preferring the intense feelings of infatuation that occur in the earliest stages of a relationship (they love falling in love). They revel in romance and in the process of mutual discovery, but as soon as the feelings become familiar, they are ready to explore other possibilities. Similarly, restlessness causes them to lack discernment. They may get involved in faddish or sensational ideas in glitzy packaging that are little more than temporary distractions. Disappointment soon follows.

In the unhealthy range, SX 7s become even more reckless in their pursuit of charged excitement. They may involve themselves in crazy schemes and unrealistic or dangerous love affairs. They become thrill seekers, looking for more and more extraordinary sources of entertainment while being less and less affected by any of it. They become hardened and dissipated from living on the edge, often burning out or damaging themselves in some permanent way from their excesses.


Ocean Moonshine
Sexual/Social 7s
This subtype has a lot of energy, crazy, intense energy and this energy is going to find a way to manifest. This subtype of Seven can have the biggest extremes in behavior and with material success in life. With the self-pres instinct last in the stacking they aren’t afraid of taking risks, so they sometimes become very successful but they typically also take too many risks, look for too many easy ways out. With the self-pres least developed, they can become dependent on others to add a much needed stabilizing element to their busy hedonistic lives. They have many of the same issues and share many of the same problems as the other sexual first subtype with regards to relationship addiction and have even more dependency issues then the sexual/self-pres. They can lose focus and drift similar to the social/sexual subtype and their high energy can likewise be draining for others.

With this subtype, you have drama mixed with mental energy. What separates them from Fours who they might resemble superficially is their planning and future orientation. Their drama and intensity is focused on what they are going to do, not on what has happened. They are usually blind to their past, moving forward and not looking back.


Sexual Sevens (according to Beatrice Chestnut)
The Sexual Seven - "Suggestibility"
Individuals with the Sexual Seven subtype are gluttons for things of the higher world-for optimistically seeing things as they could be in the ideal world of their imaginations. Sexual Sevens are dreamers with a need to imagine something better than stark, ordinary reality. These Sevens have a passion for embellishing everyday reality, for being too enthusiastic, and for idealizing things and seeing the world as better than it actually is. Their gluttony gets expressed as a need for idealization.

Sexual Sevens are not as interested in the things of this world as they are in the things of a more highly advanced dimension. They look at the sky as an escape from the earth; they are more “heavenly” than “earthy.” People with this subtype are light-hearted enjoyers with a need to dream and to idealize and embellish the ordinary. In line with this tendency, they can be very idealistic and somewhat naïve.

These Sevens tend to look at things with the optimism of somebody who is in love. Everything looks better when you are in love, and the Sexual Seven takes refuge in this kind of ideal, positive experience as a way of unconsciously avoiding what might be unpleasant in life. They focus on a highly positive view of life to distract themselves from the uncomfortable or scary emotions they would rather remain unaware of.

It is said that “love is blind.” Naranjo contends that Sexual Sevens may be said to be blind in this same sense: they display a bit too much enthusiasm and optimism and pay disproportionate attention to the positive data in a situation. These Sevens can fall in love very intensely, and they relate to their world through dreaming and imagination. They imagine what the world could be, and they can believe that this optimistic view is real.

In this way, Sexual Sevens express a need to fantasize, a need to dream, or a need for rose-colored glasses. These Sevens have a tendency to be too happy. They display a need to live in a charmed reality, to fantasize-to live in a world seen as an overcompensation that reflects an unconscious desire to deny or avoid the painful or boring or frightening parts of life. Sexual Sevens tend to experience an underlying fear of getting stuck in these kinds of feelings and so take refuge in optimism.

This Seven’s need to dream is a form of idealization-a passion for viewing life as it could be or as they imagine it to be; a tendency to live for the sweetness in a dreamed-of or imagined world rather than for the ordinary and not-so-interesting reality. They don’t want to pay attention to anything bad or difficult that might be happening.

Sexual Sevens think, “I’m okay, everything’s okay.” Naranjo points out that this way of thinking is very therapeutic for everyone who is not a Seven. Sexual Sevens often had some sort of painful experience growing up and they’ve adopted a sense of lightness as a defense against feeling their pain. They defensively take refuge in a happy, or excessively happy, and expansive mood that operates as a way of unconsciously diverting themselves from recognizing and feeling a deeper pain. It’s like walking lightly above things or hovering at an elevated level as a means of escaping the uncomfortable emotions.

The name given to this type is “Suggestibility,” which implies a readiness to be mentally flexible and imaginative-but it also has to do with being gullible, easy to hypnotize, and susceptible to the infection of enthusiasm. Naranjo points out that Sexual Sevens’ cognitive defenses are shaped as suggestion, fantasy, and illusion. They can naively believe that people are what they say they are, and they can be very trusting, seeing the world and people in beautiful, perhaps overly positive, terms. They run to an idyllic future and away from a potentially uncomfortable or painful present. They display a prevalence of thought and imagination over feeling and instinct.

In terms of personal style, Sexual Sevens are people who like to talk a lot. They are verbose and excited by their own discourse, and their speech is characterized by a flow of “wonderful ideas and possibilities.” They can also play the role of the carefree clown whom nothing seems to affect. People with this subtype tend to use ironic humor, which can be escapist, and they test limits through seduction and humor. They seek acceptance, appreciation, and recognition, and they manipulate through seduction.

Sexual Sevens plan and improvise a lot. They believe that they can do everything, and they feel a need to plan or mount successful strategies that will ensure their pleasure. They may experience anxiety, however, about the difficulty of engaging in many scenarios at once and having to give something up. They can have a restless and anxious energy, which can take the outer form of doing things on many fronts and engaging in many activities at the same time. Their excitement and anxiety can cloud their perception of reality. At times they may rebel through passive-aggression, which they tend to do by living in their imagination-relating to situations as they would like them to be and not taking action in the real world.

Sexual Sevens see the world as a marketplace of outstanding opportunities: the more you take, the more you can enjoy. These Sevens express excitement about the possibility of consuming many experiences-everything is exciting and spectacular-like someone who goes to a bakery and wants to try a bit of everything. They find a sense of satisfaction in being able to have it all, in not missing or losing out on anything.

Contrary to what we might expect from this “Sexual” Seven subtype, this Seven is not so much focused on sex as they are on the essence of love. Sexual Sevens fall in love very easily, but they’re not as interested in having sex with someone as they are in attaining a kind of idealized ultimate connection. Sexuality itself stays primarily in the head for these characters. It’s a normal sexuality on one hand, but it’s a promise for a bigger opening to a mystical union on the other.

Sexual Sevens are gluttons for things of the higher world, and this makes them dreamers. They often feel an attraction to spiritual or metaphysical experience, as well as to extraordinary or esoteric things. Earthly, mundane things can be very hard to bear for a person who lives in a more idealized mental reality, and so this individual can have an intense dislike for activities they find routine, tedious, or boring.

For the Sexual Seven, earthly things take effort, and can therefore feel boring or tedious, whereas the mind works so easily and without friction. It’s so much easier to imagine doing something than to actually do it. So, this Seven finds comfort-indulging a kind of worldly laziness-in imagining instead of doing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, but only when I'm at the best of my mental health. Mostly though I have a headache so I try to be as expedient with physical energy as possible. But when I get going at something, I feel that tension. It's almost like a signal now; when I want to get serious about something, I stiffen up, and vice-versa. And it's not just getting serious about physical activity. I approach mental enterprises in the same way.
Coincidence that a body/muscle tension type (E1) gets tension headaches daily?

I liked your "At the very least" re Hitchens btw.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
@Dare
Sorry for the late reply. I had two projects going on (have, more like) and 4 assignments.

I think yes, we can settle on 1 core. I still have some questions regarding my being 1 core. For long time now, I've felt that I'm too polite. I forgive too easily, let go too easily. Most things that people tend to be pissed at, justifiably or not, just pass over me without being registered. And even if I tell myself that it's right to be indignant about it, I still can't be bothered. Just today in the bus, someone took my seat by the window (I had booked it). I asked him to change his seat and he started rationalizing why it's seat number this and not that even though the seats were clearly marked. Instead of now telling him to look up at the symbols, I just sat down beside him, without a fuck. Some seats ahead, a similar thing happened after 5 minutes. A guy came and simply told the wrongly seated passenger to 'Get over here'. He said that with decisiveness, and the other one didn't say a thing. Unlike yours truly, who is way too overly polite. You'd expect a 1 to stand his ground but I don't do that, not in these matters. Not in many matters actually. My INFJ roommate (not sure of his enneagram) is more concerned with 'duties given to others' than I am. He frequently gets into an argument with the hostel administration over poor handling of the kitchen while I sit here and languidly wonder 'where do you get all this energy from?'.

My 1 behavior seems to be very selective. It kicks in only when it is emotionally registered, only when I'm not thinking about other things and only when I can imagine the consequences as worse than before. Telling the passenger next to me to change seats with me bears no consequence in my head. In the end, we both travel the same distance, with the same comfort, and reach the same destination. Although I know that it is wrong for him to just choose whatever seat he wants. Lashing out on the cook for not keeping the kitchen properly also bears little consequence in my head. I go to the kitchen every day and while it's not pristine, it's not too bad either. Maybe I've yet to see things my roommate has. I don't just do things because I think they are right; although that's what a 1 should be doing, if I've understood this type correctly.

From the other descriptions you've posted, I can see myself relating with parts of 3 and 7. As for 5, it's a 80% match. With 3, I seem to differ on presenting an attractive image. I've always been one of the most lousily dressed up kid and I think I really need to fix that now. Being a lousy dresser, I'm only taken seriously by people who know what I'm capable of. Others constantly underestimate me. But I admit to feeling a strange sort of pride whenever people find out that I'm not a book to be judged by its cover. The sx 3 proclivity of seeing their achievements in the achievements of others who they helped is something I relate with very much.

Sx 7 does sound like a place I visit only.

The one thing that I cannot feel, like at all, is this constant search for an 'intimate one-to-one' connection, or an ideal relationship so to say. I mean yes I do want an ideal relationship but that's not the focal point of my life. I'd rather, like the sx 5 example given above, have an intimate emotional connection with lots of people over time, than just limit myself to one only. If anything, I'd rather be speaking to a whole nation and feeling a connection about a shared goal with each one of my audience. It is one of my favorite fantasies. I think I have a lot to give, and I want to give everything to almost every person I come across, provided they are worth it -- which I usually find out during the course of disseminating my contents.

All of this, I think, points toward 145. But I'd like to have my doubts cleared nonetheless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
@Dare Sorry for the late reply. I had two projects going on (have, more like) and 4 assignments.
No problem, there is no hurry, take all the time you need :)

I think yes, we can settle on 1 core. I still have some questions regarding my being 1 core. For long time now, I've felt that I'm too polite. I forgive too easily, let go too easily. Most things that people tend to be pissed at, justifiably or not, just pass over me without being registered. And even if I tell myself that it's right to be indignant about it, I still can't be bothered. Just today in the bus, someone took my seat by the window (I had booked it). I asked him to change his seat and he started rationalizing why it's seat number this and not that even though the seats were clearly marked. Instead of now telling him to look up at the symbols, I just sat down beside him, without a fuck. Some seats ahead, a similar thing happened after 5 minutes. A guy came and simply told the wrongly seated passenger to 'Get over here'. He said that with decisiveness, and the other one didn't say a thing. Unlike yours truly, who is way too overly polite. You'd expect a 1 to stand his ground but I don't do that, not in these matters. Not in many matters actually. My INFJ roommate (not sure of his enneagram) is more concerned with 'duties given to others' than I am. He frequently gets into an argument with the hostel administration over poor handling of the kitchen while I sit here and languidly wonder 'where do you get all this energy from?'.

My 1 behavior seems to be very selective. It kicks in only when it is emotionally registered, only when I'm not thinking about other things and only when I can imagine the consequences as worse than before. Telling the passenger next to me to change seats with me bears no consequence in my head. In the end, we both travel the same distance, with the same comfort, and reach the same destination. Although I know that it is wrong for him to just choose whatever seat he wants. Lashing out on the cook for not keeping the kitchen properly also bears little consequence in my head. I go to the kitchen every day and while it's not pristine, it's not too bad either. Maybe I've yet to see things my roommate has. I don't just do things because I think they are right; although that's what a 1 should be doing, if I've understood this type correctly.
I'm not sure how a 'big picture' Te/Ni type could take bus numbers that seriously (personality will mix with enneagram). You processed it logically (same comfort/distance) bc that's how it should be calculated (says the INTJ :) The only people who will be processing it as 'a rule is a rule!' are ISTJs or similar. And ISTJs are most commonly enneagram 1. So some XNTJs and many ISTJs are both e1s despite being world's apart in their nature.

ISTJs are the past oriented 'enforcers' who trust in systems previously built. They get very 'TJ' on people to get them to follow every rule (they don't want people 'getting ideas', lol). Obviously we XNTJs like to decide for ourselves the value of systems already in place. We are precisely the opposite of ISTJs in the way they maintain 'traditions' -- forward looking XNTJs can see a better way and are naturally agents of change.

Our 'open' minds seem to go to the big picture too. So maybe I could invent a better way for bus seating to be done, but my Ni doesn't want to focus on such mundane petty stuff that already works well enough. There may also be a factor of not being neurotic or a 'high conflict' individual also (you naturally let things go easily. I assume you score high in A over T (assertive vs turbulent). Would you say that this forgiving/letting go "too easily" makes you more adaptable?

So how can XNTJs and ISTJs have the same enneagram and be so different? They just are. Unhealthy ISTJs ruin the reputation of e1 for all e1s. That cliche e1 who is the preacher or school teacher and takes on that 'just do as I do!' attitude is so uh, not attractive. Speaking of attraction, ENTJs are most commonly sx/so (the majority have sx in the first two) whereas the majority of ISTJs are either so/sp or sp/so -- they were so ISTJ that the SX instinct ran away (lol).

So most ENTJs e1s will be SX 'perfecting others' where ISTJ are more likely to be SO 'perfect' -- these are the ones that want others to conform to them and won't change/improve themselves. It's a very stand offish instinct (like a rigid dictator) compared to e1 SX as we just covered; 'shared standards' which is more 'human' in my eyes, it's more a coming together even if the ENTJ is the leader. It's also important to remember that SX is the countertype for e1 -- that means, by definition, they won't look like a typical e1.

I also think the picture that comes to mind of the barking ISTJ as a typical e1 is at odds with a very healthy e1w9. Heath levels matter. For example a health level 6 (on the low side of average) e1 is described as: "afraid others will mess up the order & balance they've achieved and angry others don't take their ideals seriously, they react by reproaching and correcting others for not living up to the standards."

Where a healthy (above average) 1w9 is described as: "highly discerning, wise & civilized. They can be scholarly and erudite, maintaining a dispassionate philosophical stance that focuses on long range concerns -- the "big" picture. They can have an introverted, reclusive quality about them... they wish to improve things but with a gentler, more detached touch than other Ones". (Riso & Hudson)

So an ENTJ who is 1) healthy 2) 1w9 (rather than 1w2) and 3) the countertype (SX) -- will look different to an 'average' e1, especially when that average is likely to be an ISTJ -- it's just very different people (unless the ISTJ is freakiskly intelligent -- intelligence is correlated with being open-minded).

So, I think you need to remember that e1 covers a wide range (far beyond the stereotype), that with SX you are the countertype (you are not expected to look like a 1) and that your tritype & personality will factor in too and that includes both MBTI as well as things like your temperament/character too (neurotic etc). It also seems you like to think (understatement) so 'acting like a 1' has to have a bigger pay-off than your thinking in the first place. You are very 5ish for a 1.

How you describe your e1 as very selective is really interesting. That's exactly how it works in me. I go about my 5w4 business and every now and then I get triggered into e1 (e5 isn't working or someone is seriously bothering me and I know they're wrong and in a negative consequences to others way). This secondary way of coping is more on/off with e5. Although I do exhibit a number of XXTJ behaviors daily (strongly dislike chaos etc).

What percentage of the time would you say you behave 1ish? (by the 1w9, healthy, sx version of 1)

From the other descriptions you've posted, I can see myself relating with parts of 3 and 7. As for 5, it's a 80% match. With 3, I seem to differ on presenting an attractive image. I've always been one of the most lousily dressed up kid and I think I really need to fix that now. Being a lousy dresser, I'm only taken seriously by people who know what I'm capable of. Others constantly underestimate me. But I admit to feeling a strange sort of pride whenever people find out that I'm not a book to be judged by its cover. The sx 3 proclivity of seeing their achievements in the achievements of others who they helped is something I relate with very much.
I did notice your under-promise/over-deliver pattern. It's an interesting twist on the usual 'creating an image' (typically an oversell if it's not in line with reality).

Is it important to you at all to become the embodiment of excellence (by your definition)?

How important is the idea of being an inspiration/role-model to you?

When healthy and attractive opportunities available, would people call you 'driven'?

Fast forward to a point in your life where you are happy with yourself: would you feel more pride if someone you respect told you you're 'unique' or 'enigmatic' or 'an exemplar of what a man should be'? (this isn't a person you're trying to date)

Did you relate to more of the 4 SX or the 3 SX we covered?


The 80% match with e5 wasn't a big surprise (I feel like I'm talking with another five when you aren't giving me pep talks :). I'm guessing you will be 5w4. Have you read the 5 wing descriptions before?

The one thing that I cannot feel, like at all, is this constant search for an 'intimate one-to-one' connection, or an ideal relationship so to say. I mean yes I do want an ideal relationship but that's not the focal point of my life. I'd rather, like the sx 5 example given above, have an intimate emotional connection with lots of people over time, than just limit myself to one only. If anything, I'd rather be speaking to a whole nation and feeling a connection about a shared goal with each one of my audience. It is one of my favorite fantasies. I think I have a lot to give, and I want to give everything to almost every person I come across, provided they are worth it -- which I usually find out during the course of disseminating my contents.
"Disseminating your contents", eh? Even without you being Freudian, it's pretty obvious that somewhere between being sx/so & ENTJ that you need to be SX with 'your people' (whomever that group may be). 'One on one' with one woman is less important to you than 'giving yourself' to those you wish to lead/teach. The SX descriptions are general (for the most part), which is lame bc there will be a difference between sx/sp and sx/so.

I guess it could be argued that you are merging with an ideal and are being one on one in that sense, but if you want to look at SX from the perspective of it being a survival instinct: pure SO is survival by 'safety in numbers', pure SX is 'I've got your back' and something inbetween is the SX leader of the SO group. In your subconscious 'we' (whatever that we may be) are safer with you as our leader. It's sometimes said that SX leaders can only lead after they have someone standing behind them (or they do it better that way).

All of this, I think, points toward 145. But I'd like to have my doubts cleared nonetheless.
It's already adding up to be 154 but, if you don't mind, I'd like to carefully rule out 153 bc a) every ENTJ should explain in detail why they aren't a 3 (out of 2/3/4. Most ENTJs are 8s or 3s to begin with. Te is heavily associated with 3), b) it's possible the 4ishness is coming from wings & disintegration, and c) judging by how little was highlighted on the 4 SX we covered (this needs to be explained), I wonder if you have an idea about 4s that may be covered by 3s and/or 5s (like the ability to be dark).
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
@Dare
I got my roommate working on the project at the cheap cost of making coffee for him every day and helping him with the algorithm when he gets stuck. So I've got time now. And that reminds me of a habit: If I can imagine the solution to some problem, I consider my job done. Why write the code when you know the algorithm? even a clerk can do that. This is an impractical habit for sure but I can't get rid of it. Type 5 maybe???

I assume you score high in A over T (assertive vs turbulent). Would you say that this forgiving/letting go "too easily" makes you more adaptable?
Last time I took the test, got 95% on assertive. To your question: Yes and No. It makes me a not-so-fun person to be around I suppose. And it also makes me appear passive. My family actually thought I wouldn't survive in a hostel given my passivity in small matters. On the contrary now, it appears that I'm the best survivalist. In one way you can see that appearing passive is a way of adapting everywhere since no one's ever bothered by passive people. But then in situations that call for stringent and constant action, micromanagement in a word, I would fail. As I can already observe from my attitude towards assignments and quizzes. It's just useless work in my view and I ditch it very easily, despite their 20% weight in the final grade. I prefer to do well on the exams as a way of keeping my grades reasonably high.

What percentage of the time would you say you behave 1ish? (by the 1w9, healthy, sx version of 1)
Every time I get the opportunity. Which naturally isn't all the time, but every moment I'm itching for something to push me for a pep talk. It'll be about 10% of the time, since there aren't many irregularities in my reclusive life. Everything non-1 that I do, though, is always ultimately for a 1ish purpose.

Is it important to you at all to become the embodiment of excellence (by your definition)?
Without a second thought, yes. It's not something I think too much about though. I don't care too much if my life does not exactly represent the 'ideal life'; that's not in my control anyway. What I want is for people to understand what I wanted to be and do, even if I fail to be or do any of that. Perhaps my idea of excellence ends at aspiring towards excellence. Very few people actually want that, you know. And those who truly do want it are almost invariably better than the rest. Each being a role model in one way or another, despite their flaws.

How important is the idea of being an inspiration/role-model to you?
Again, it's something I'd ideally love to be but I know it'd be impossible to do that. I'd rather simply people understand what I aspired to than what I'd been. I sure don't want to live like Albert Camus but I love that guy to death because of the world he wanted to create. The kind of life I live or will live will not suit a revolutionary in different times. He'll need his own imperfections and some bad slips here and there to make it through without regrets.

I want to dictate people's desires not their lives. Karl Marx and Albert Camus both wished the same for mankind, you know. No one knew whose perspective will ultimately be good for mankind. And no one will have ever known had Camus and Marx never aspired for a different future.

When healthy and attractive opportunities available, would people call you 'driven'?
Uhh, people wouldn't call me driven per se but I would feel that I'm driven. I'd be overtly skeptical (always am) and covertly hopeful (like always). Skepticism just gives the vibes that I probably don't want it. But I'd be working my ass off to have it.

Fast forward to a point in your life where you are happy with yourself: would you feel more pride if someone you respect told you you're 'unique' or 'enigmatic' or 'an exemplar of what a man should be'? (this isn't a person you're trying to date)
Definitely the latter. I've had the 'you're unique' compliment too many times for it to be important anymore. I'm not even trying to be unique ffs.

Did you relate to more of the 4 SX or the 3 SX we covered?
On second reading, 3 SX. Envy is just something I've never felt. I'm physically disgusted at the concept of envy. Merely to imagine that emotion is making me uncomfortable. There were some habits of 4SX that I highlighted which I nonetheless relate to. But on the whole, taking in account of life focus and goals, 3SX is closer to where I am. If you replace 'sexual appeal' with 'intellectual appeal' in the 3SX descriptions, it'd be a 80% match. I don't care so much about appearing sexually attractive to people who I desire; but appearing stupid to people who I think are intelligent is a fucking nightmare.

It's sometimes said that SX leaders can only lead after they have someone standing behind them (or they do it better that way).
Agreed to that. I need to have at least one like-minded individual who I can confide in before I feel like I'm prepared to lead. I'm more confident that way.

Have you read the 5 wing descriptions before?
Just did. Fuck, I relate. Even the pure 5 description is a good match. Especially this:

What a Five would say about himself:

"I don't like invasive or overly emotional people, especially those who are angry or aggressive. I tend to be self-reliant and keep my problems to myself. Routines such as eating, sleeping, or changing my clothes become relatively unimportant when I'm reading or concentrating on one of my projects. I often feel shy and uncomfortable around people. I feel more at ease expressing my thoughts than my feelings. I enjoy spending a lot of my time alone. I generally wait for people to approach me instead of approaching them. Occasionally I feel righteous enough to become angry. I am better able to experience how I feel about something afterward, when I am alone. I don't like social functions: parties and small talk don't appeal to me except with people I know well. I don't like to be asked broad, general questions about myself. I like being appreciated for my knowledge. I try not to be involved with confrontations. I don't usually want people to know how I feel or what I'm thinking unless I tell them. When others try to regulate my life, I feel frantic and angry. I can be cynical and argumentative. I usually work things out in my mind before I talk about them; I often hesitate while I try to order my thoughts and may not speak at all if I can't perfect what I want to say. At times, I wish I had better social skills. People sometimes find it difficult to follow my train of thought. I have little interest in most social conventions."
I've read before that it's impossible for an ENTJ to be type 5. Maybe I'm just an INTJ larping as ENTJ but my childhood has been far too active and social for me to be INTJ. I've had a religious upbringing so my concerns have always been moral and of duties. At that time, I only demanded knowledge which helped people be better (of course I had a different view of 'better' back then -- different enough for me to completely eschew it). Now I require a much wider base of knowledge, since I now know that there's not just one kind of knowledge which makes us better.

I wonder if you have an idea about 4s that may be covered by 3s and/or 5s (like the ability to be dark).
That's umm.. it. The ability to be dark is all I have about 4s. Their tendency to have melancholy bouts and expressing their sorrow through artistic means is what I relate to. I also share my appreciation for gothic architecture, some classical music, and other hippie stuff, with the 4s I know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
I got my roommate working on the project at the cheap cost of making coffee for him every day and helping him with the algorithm when he gets stuck. So I've got time now. And that reminds me of a habit: If I can imagine the solution to some problem, I consider my job done. Why write the code when you know the algorithm? even a clerk can do that. This is an impractical habit for sure but I can't get rid of it. Type 5 maybe???
There is an aspect of any Te/Ni type is going to value efficiency and would prefer to get back to big picture thinking than doing boring work someone else could do. But you're right that e5 in particular likes to mentally live at the 'unknowns' and strongly prefers to not do mundane stuff. I have to stay on a regular schedule of exercise/chores/admin otherwise I grow to not be able to tolerate the petty demands of everyday life. Part of a 5s 'avarice' is the 'we only want to do what we want to do' factor (and what we want to do is usually think/learn/imagine/be in our head). I like the idea of employees doing the work I've set for them, leaving me to think/move forwards.

Last time I took the test, got 95% on assertive.
I'm not surprised but it's still interesting since that is so high and I got 96%. Now I'm going to wonder whether it's somehow related to tritype (competency ---> confidence?)

Every time I get the opportunity. Which naturally isn't all the time, but every moment I'm itching for something to push me for a pep talk. It'll be about 10% of the time, since there aren't many irregularities in my reclusive life. Everything non-1 that I do, though, is always ultimately for a 1ish purpose.
It's funny re your last sentence; I was going to ask you that exact question bc I was thinking this morning about my own tritype and how the others (1 & 3) serve/are tools for my e5 core. That's a great way to confirm which type is your core.

Without a second thought, yes. It's not something I think too much about though. I don't care too much if my life does not exactly represent the 'ideal life'; that's not in my control anyway. What I want is for people to understand what I wanted to be and do, even if I fail to be or do any of that. Perhaps my idea of excellence ends at aspiring towards excellence. Very few people actually want that, you know. And those who truly do want it are almost invariably better than the rest. Each being a role model in one way or another, despite their flaws.
Spoken like a 3 :) Yes, I'm aware that few aspire to be excellent. I couldn't imagine living without that guidepost/question that walks around with me; can I do better? It seems pretty standard XNTJ 'optimization of systems' stuff to me. I also don't understand why someone wouldn't want to do things excellently (where the time cost is worth it). I despise laziness (mentally & physically).

Again, it's something I'd ideally love to be but I know it'd be impossible to do that. I'd rather simply people understand what I aspired to than what I'd been. I sure don't want to live like Albert Camus but I love that guy to death because of the world he wanted to create. The kind of life I live or will live will not suit a revolutionary in different times. He'll need his own imperfections and some bad slips here and there to make it through without regrets.

I want to dictate people's desires not their lives. Karl Marx and Albert Camus both wished the same for mankind, you know. No one knew whose perspective will ultimately be good for mankind. And no one will have ever known had Camus and Marx never aspired for a different future.
Karl. Fucking. Marx, eh? I don't like how INTJs with undeveloped Te can Ni away on their conspiracy theories (and how social instinct was he...) I can't believe he had no one in his life giving him the resistance/reality check/slap across the face he needed. I'm guessing unhealthy e5. Camus, on the other hand, I adore. Back on topic; healthy 3's like to inspire.

Uhh, people wouldn't call me driven per se but I would feel that I'm driven. I'd be overtly skeptical (always am) and covertly hopeful (like always). Skepticism just gives the vibes that I probably don't want it. But I'd be working my ass off to have it.
Driven is distinctly a 3 thing.

Definitely the latter. I've had the 'you're unique' compliment too many times for it to be important anymore. I'm not even trying to be unique ffs.
Definitely 3 over 4.

On second reading, 3 SX. Envy is just something I've never felt. I'm physically disgusted at the concept of envy. Merely to imagine that emotion is making me uncomfortable. There were some habits of 4SX that I highlighted which I nonetheless relate to. But on the whole, taking in account of life focus and goals, 3SX is closer to where I am. If you replace 'sexual appeal' with 'intellectual appeal' in the 3SX descriptions, it'd be a 80% match. I don't care so much about appearing sexually attractive to people who I desire; but appearing stupid to people who I think are intelligent is a fucking nightmare.
I guess it's the quality we possess that we wish to 'use' in some form that we are sensitive to pleasing with. Perhaps that's where the potential for shame comes in. For me e3 is more to do with my private life and wanting to be a 'good woman' to my man. Part of that is my appearance, which I take very seriously, but it's a lot more too. I don't know why they made that description so shallow. At least Beatrice Chestnut wrote that '3s achieve in their relationship' (for you relationship will mean something broader like the relationship you have with 'your' people). I also liked how she spoke of being 'of use' and fearing displeasing. That's something that's always been odd with me; the thought of disappointing my man feels like a building fell on me. These e3 descriptions don't focus enough on being a team player or the roles men/women take on (and the pride/shame they get from doing them well/poorly). There's also too much emphasis on average-unhealthy 3s in the descriptions. Healthy 3s are exactly as they appear, are successful and an inspiration.

Just did. Fuck, I relate. Even the pure 5 description is a good match.
Did you like the 5w4 or the 5w6 better? (I can put them up here if you'd like)

I've read before that it's impossible for an ENTJ to be type 5. Maybe I'm just an INTJ larping as ENTJ but my childhood has been far too active and social for me to be INTJ. I've had a religious upbringing so my concerns have always been moral and of duties. At that time, I only demanded knowledge which helped people be better (of course I had a different view of 'better' back then -- different enough for me to completely eschew it). Now I require a much wider base of knowledge, since I now know that there's not just one kind of knowledge which makes us better.
E1 + ENTJ makes sense. E5 + ENTJ does not. If you feel it's close, I'd guess e5 is the second in your tritype. It's looking like 153 with a four influence. How does the below sound to you?

3w4
Healthy: believe self esteem comes from work rather than personal qualities. Want their work to be outstanding & well-regarded, often putting great energy into career. Take pleasure in chosen profession and willing to make great personal sacrifices to maintain professional integrity. While diplomatic & charming, more generally serious and task-oriented and therefore can resemble Ones. (Riso & Hudson)

3 Healthy Levels (Enneagram Institute)

Level 1 (At Their Best): Self-accepting, inner-directed, and authentic, everything they seem to be. Modest and charitable, self-deprecatory humor and a fullness of heart emerge. Gentle and benevolent.

Level 2: Self-assured, energetic, and competent with high self-esteem: they believe in themselves and their own value. Adaptable, desirable, charming, and gracious.

Level 3: Ambitious to improve themselves, to be "the best they can be"—often become outstanding, a human ideal, embodying widely admired cultural qualities. Highly effective: others are motivated to be like them in some positive way.

Average Levels

Level 4: Highly concerned with their performance, doing their job well, constantly driving self to achieve goals as if self-worth depends on it. Terrified of failure. Compare self with others in search for status and success. Become careerists, social climbers, invested in exclusivity and being the "best."
[Below here it got weird/unhealthy/not you]

That's umm.. it. The ability to be dark is all I have about 4s. Their tendency to have melancholy bouts and expressing their sorrow through artistic means is what I relate to. I also share my appreciation for gothic architecture, some classical music, and other hippie stuff, with the 4s I know.
Fives are known for going deep into the unknown and following truth/their interest wherever they may lead. We aren't fearful of the dark side to things. Some even like it (a couple of 5w4 INTJs here have interests in things like death). Apparently 5s can get dark sexually. I wouldn't describe myself as dark but I prefer night to day and enjoy dark movies. I expect some SX types will be attracted to dark stuff for the intensity. Do you make any kind of art? Do you mean that you enjoy art more when feeling down? We can work out the sadness stuff after we are sure where that 4 influence is coming from.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Karl. Fucking. Marx, eh? I don't like how INTJs with undeveloped Te can Ni away on their conspiracy theories (and how social instinct was he...) I can't believe he had no one in his life giving him the resistance/reality check/slap across the face he needed. I'm guessing unhealthy e5. Camus, on the other hand, I adore. Back on topic; healthy 3's like to inspire.
I wouldn't blame the man. Marx promised everything mankind needed, or felt like it needed, in those times. Outcome Effect has us underestimating how rational and sensible his theory seemed to people back then. If we're going to blame Marx for painting a beautiful portrait of a dystopia, then we should blame ourselves for not seeing the void around the canvas. Marx said things which the common man of his time was always on the brink of screaming. I can take away the privilege of accuracy from Marx, but I can't take away his passion and authenticity. We can only indefinitely enumerate the factors that contributed to the failure of Marxism and this indefinite nature of our enumeration tells us that we don't clearly know, even after the fact, why it collapsed. This is the level of ignorance of those who saw it all through; how could the 20th century youth be expected to foresee unknowns that are still not completely known?

Driven is distinctly a 3 thing.
There's a sort of fear or anxiety I have which I'd like to mention here. I'm quiet unable to truly believe in hard work. I accept that this is an ingredient for success but something in me never stops doubting the possibility of success despite the hard work. I always feel as if I'm doing things the wrong way, or as if I've missed some steps that everyone else but me knows. Other people's work always feels so distant and so different, despite targeting the same problem, that I can't stop doubting my work. That's why I prefer to work alone, away from the sight of what other people are doing. This makes me a bad competitor, in sports, in exams, in almost every kind of competition. I've had a difficult childhood because of that. My father was constantly puzzled and infuriated at my inability to compete. He'd watch me do my thing at my own pace and get hopeful. I was excellent, academically and athletically -- but only as long as I was alone. As soon as he'd put me in a competition, I'd come home a confused kid who hadn't a clue of what just happened. Although I've managed to reduce my exam anxiety by constantly achieving satisfactory results and learning that my methods do work. I'm in the habit of not unplugging my earphones, as a way of shutting out the world, until the last second before the exam. In sports, I'm still only a ....what can I say, a decoration piece? People look at me practicing alone or jumping into a random games in the school ground solely for fun and are amazed at what I can do. And then they push me to partake in events and tournaments, and that suffocates me. In casual races, I could outrun the fastest sprinter of my school but in the annual Olympiad, the coach had to try his best to push me into the race and once in it, I'd lose my stamina and lag behind -- physically feeling something pulling me from behind, not letting me run.

This anxiety is why I've never entertained the prospect of being type 3. I've been a constant disappointment to other people, my father, my coach, my teammates, my friends, throughout my life -- hence labeling myself an intelligent soul always condemned to mediocrity. It's not that I lack confidence; you could have me perform at my fullest in front of the entire world as long as the idea of winning or losing wasn't attached to it, as long as there could be no 'meaningless achievement' granted unlimited importance. And sure enough, I did perform excellently in front of others; during recess when people will stand by and watch me do my thing, I was at my best. But the same people, in a slightly different environment, became overbearing. It's been an arduous journey to where I am today, able to mentally numb myself to this anxiety by deeming myself so unique and so fresh that even my failure would be positively memorable. I've given some of the best extempore speeches at my University and people keep on wondering how the hell am I that confident. And I always stop myself at the edge of revealing 'You should see me in a sports event'. There, the bad experiences prevails.

I'm not designed to achieve for entertainment and status, in front of others, and because of others. I'm too light-hearted to bear artificial burdens. My confidence in giving speeches comes from how much I believe in what I say. I feel like I'm making a positive change in those moments. I've never felt like making a positive change in any school competition, only confusion and doubts.

Did you like the 5w4 or the 5w6 better? (I can put them up here if you'd like)
5w4. I have no issues forming intimate connections with people.

3w4
Healthy: believe self esteem comes from work rather than personal qualities. Want their work to be outstanding & well-regarded, often putting great energy into career. Take pleasure in chosen profession and willing to make great personal sacrifices to maintain professional integrity. While diplomatic & charming, more generally serious and task-oriented and therefore can resemble Ones. (Riso & Hudson)
Uhhh.... I haven't done any work yet so I believe self esteem comes from personal qualities?? I mean, the quality of your work is ultimately contingent on personal qualities, or at least a subset of them. I'm definitely not a healthy 3 then.

3 Healthy Levels (Enneagram Institute)
Level 1 (At Their Best): Self-accepting, inner-directed, and authentic, everything they seem to be. Modest and charitable, self-deprecatory humor and a fullness of heart emerge. Gentle and benevolent.

Level 2: Self-assured, energetic, and competent with high self-esteem: they believe in themselves and their own value. Adaptable, desirable, charming, and gracious.

Level 3: Ambitious to improve themselves, to be "the best they can be"—often become outstanding, a human ideal, embodying widely admired cultural qualities. Highly effective: others are motivated to be like them in some positive way.
I can't answer this one. I'm the antithesis of my culture so I can't be level 3 at least. Again, others are better equipped to answer.

Average Levels

Level 4: Highly concerned with their performance, doing their job well, constantly driving self to achieve goals as if self-worth depends on it. Terrified of failure. Compare self with others in search for status and success. Become careerists, social climbers, invested in exclusivity and being the "best."
[Below here it got weird/unhealthy/not you]
Holy shit, do people like this even exist?

Fives are known for going deep into the unknown and following truth/their interest wherever they may lead. We aren't fearful of the dark side to things. Some even like it (a couple of 5w4 INTJs here have interests in things like death). Apparently 5s can get dark sexually. I wouldn't describe myself as dark but I prefer night to day and enjoy dark movies. I expect some SX types will be attracted to dark stuff for the intensity. Do you make any kind of art? Do you mean that you enjoy art more when feeling down? We can work out the sadness stuff after we are sure where that 4 influence is coming from.
I used to make art as a kid. Sold all my drawings for chocolates and pokemon cards. Then stopped when mom told me to do something useful for once. I enjoy art in every mood. Only the kind of art that I enjoy changes with my mood. But I definitely indulge more in aesthetic musings when I'm down.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
I wouldn't blame the man. Marx promised everything mankind needed, or felt like it needed, in those times. Outcome Effect has us underestimating how rational and sensible his theory seemed to people back then. If we're going to blame Marx for painting a beautiful portrait of a dystopia, then we should blame ourselves for not seeing the void around the canvas. Marx said things which the common man of his time was always on the brink of screaming. I can take away the privilege of accuracy from Marx, but I can't take away his passion and authenticity. We can only indefinitely enumerate the factors that contributed to the failure of Marxism and this indefinite nature of our enumeration tells us that we don't clearly know, even after the fact, why it collapsed. This is the level of ignorance of those who saw it all through; how could the 20th century youth be expected to foresee unknowns that are still not completely known?
We have very different views. Perhaps your willingness to see his work (and I use the term work very loosely with him) as beautiful where everything about him rubs me the wrong way is indicative of a 3 - 4 divide.

There's a sort of fear or anxiety I have which I'd like to mention here. I'm quiet unable to truly believe in hard work. I accept that this is an ingredient for success but something in me never stops doubting the possibility of success despite the hard work.
This is interesting. 1w9s are hard workers, frequently work-a-holics. It's the 'right' thing to do to work hard or to achieve X. They need to be of service to others and that drives them hard. 3s are also hard workers. For them it's about the pleasure of achieving (and avoidance of shame at lower levels). They're assertive by nature. Both 1s and 3s basic response to resolving inner conflicts is to 'earn' (6 does too).

As someone with both a 1 and a 3 in my tritype 'hard work' is an enormous tool I have & rely on. My basic approach to life is: I'm 'smart enough' and being willing to work hard, even if I don't like it, will take me the rest of the way (I can achieve what I like). When 1w9 Elon Musk gives interviews and they ask him his 'secret to success' invariably he'll say 'work harder than everyone else, do 80+ hour work weeks'.

Your response looks like something a withdrawn type would say (9/4/5). My 5 doesn't want to work hard -- I want to work smart, figure something out, save myself from doing unnecessary hard work. Society saying 'you must...' gets a big 'let me think about that' response from me ---> withdraws to think/understand/find better way. Only once my 5 'understands/approves/plans' do I go into action and work hard.

A 4 is further down that line bc they often want to be rescued/supported -- they want someone else doing the work for them (although they may enjoy doing creative work as artists but that's almost a by product of living in their deep fantasy/emotional world). All withdrawns are said to withdraw/go further 'inwards' to their imaginations as a response to stress (5s have their mental tinker toys, 4s like to imagine their idealized selves). They generally have a problem staying in their physicality and getting out of their imaginations into action. So hard work isn't normally their style (I can only do it bc I've learned how to -- life experience etc -- and with the use of my tritype/SX).

4s & 5s feel 'separate' to others for this reason -- 4s then reinforce their sense of self by the differentness which means they are invested in staying withdrawn (where a 5 is more likely to withdraw then return -- that's certainly my pattern). The 4 is said to withdraw for attention (wants someone to notice/follow) when the 5 does it for security/safety.

It's interesting that you mentioned you feel fear/anxiety -- that would seem to indicate your 5 talking (although I don't want to just assume that explains it -- all types can have fear of failure, some may learn to fear feeling shame etc -- it may be more complex). Can you say exactly what you fear, exactly what gives you the anxiety? Any further descriptions of how you feel may be helpful.

I always feel as if I'm doing things the wrong way, or as if I've missed some steps that everyone else but me knows.
This is a very 4 thing to say (both the 'wrong way' and 'everyone else knows')

Other people's work always feels so distant and so different, despite targeting the same problem, that I can't stop doubting my work. That's why I prefer to work alone, away from the sight of what other people are doing.
Withdrawn response. Without knowing the exact feeling, it's hard to pick 5 or 4 here. Although I will say that this 5 doesn't do that (look to what others are doing -- who cares -- and compare myself and fret). It does seem 4ish. The question here is: is that differentness deliberate or a source of pride, at least subconsciously.

This makes me a bad competitor, in sports, in exams, in almost every kind of competition. I've had a difficult childhood because of that. My father was constantly puzzled and infuriated at my inability to compete. He'd watch me do my thing at my own pace and get hopeful. I was excellent, academically and athletically -- but only as long as I was alone.As soon as he'd put me in a competition, I'd come home a confused kid who hadn't a clue of what just happened.
That must have been really tough. This is distinctly not e3 behavior. What's interesting is that it's been happening for so long (doesn't look like a temporary dip from e1 to e4 -- unless you disintegrate every time you feel this pressure). Do you have issues with perfectionism?

Although I've managed to reduce my exam anxiety by constantly achieving satisfactory results and learning that my methods do work. I'm in the habit of not unplugging my earphones, as a way of shutting out the world, until the last second before the exam.
I do the same thing, I don't want to have other people's anxiety passed onto me. I dislike neurotic/panicky behavior generally but I like to stay very calm before big exams in particular.

In sports, I'm still only a ....what can I say, a decoration piece? People look at me practicing alone or jumping into a random games in the school ground solely for fun and are amazed at what I can do. And then they push me to partake in events and tournaments, and that suffocates me. In casual races, I could outrun the fastest sprinter of my school but in the annual Olympiad, the coach had to try his best to push me into the race and once in it, I'd lose my stamina and lag behind -- physically feeling something pulling me from behind, not letting me run.
It's hard to know if your problem goes beyond the scope of enneagram but trying to keep it in that framework, it looks like you have a problem with competition or performance under pressure/expectations. We know this is a withdrawing response (assuming it isn't disintegration to a withdrawing response), so 4. 4s are meant to have issues surrounding competition. They tend to not go along with expectations bc they want to be different. You're a tough one bc you don't feel you wish to be unique nor do you feel envy. This needs to be explained at some point (we'll get there).

This anxiety is why I've never entertained the prospect of being type 3.
I can see that. The problem is you don't seem like a straight 4 (4 influence, yes). I'll type up some more 4 stuff later for you to take a look at (I'm off now to find out whether an ENTP becomes less boring or more so after being ignored for a couple of weeks).

I've been a constant disappointment to other people, my father, my coach, my teammates, my friends, throughout my life -- hence labeling myself an intelligent soul always condemned to mediocrity. It's not that I lack confidence; you could have me perform at my fullest in front of the entire world as long as the idea of winning or losing wasn't attached to it, as long as there could be no 'meaningless achievement' granted unlimited importance. And sure enough, I did perform excellently in front of others; during recess when people will stand by and watch me do my thing, I was at my best. But the same people, in a slightly different environment, became overbearing.
Do you feel overwhelmed in those circumstances? How do you, Mr E1 Standards Setter, feel about other people setting the standards?

It's been an arduous journey to where I am today, able to mentally numb myself to this anxiety by deeming myself so unique and so fresh that even my failure would be positively memorable. I've given some of the best extempore speeches at my University and people keep on wondering how the hell am I that confident. And I always stop myself at the edge of revealing 'You should see me in a sports event'. There, the bad experiences prevails.
Unique eh? You mean positively memorable to yourself or others or both? Do you feel 'one' with your body? Any disconnect there ('disembodied brain')? When you're doing sports does it feel like you have to think first and that slows you down but when you're doing it for fun you don't do think first, you just instinctively act?

I'm not designed to achieve for entertainment and status, in front of others, and because of others. I'm too light-hearted to bear artificial burdens. My confidence in giving speeches comes from how much I believe in what I say. I feel like I'm making a positive change in those moments. I've never felt like making a positive change in any school competition, only confusion and doubts.
Do you feel you should be, in a sense, serving people (as a leader) or uplifting people etc rather than competing with them? Do you think it may be possible that you are so programmed to lead/work with people (e1s are 'over-social'), that competing with people, in a sense working against them/separating yourself from them, just feels really wrong to e1 sx/so you?

As an INTJ I'm a little frightened to ask this, but how much do you 'love' people (or 'your' people) in the most general sense? Bc if I were to put this into SX terms and compare my sx/sp self, I could never compete against my (future) husband, it's unthinkable, it's not even possible really since we will be 'one' and genuine putting one of us above the other competing (not just being playful/silly) would be breaking that special connection/bond. Now I'm wondering if this is why you are far more sympathetic to Marx than I. Interesting.

I used to make art as a kid. Sold all my drawings for chocolates and pokemon cards. Then stopped when mom told me to do something useful for once. I enjoy art in every mood. Only the kind of art that I enjoy changes with my mood. But I definitely indulge more in aesthetic musings when I'm down.
Sold all your drawings eh? Cute. Maybe you do cross the 4/3 line in some way. To be continued...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
We have very different views. Perhaps your willingness to see his work (and I use the term work very loosely with him) as beautiful where everything about him rubs me the wrong way is indicative of a 3 - 4 divide.
Not his work but his goal was beautiful. In his own way, he was trying to make things better. He failed, and that's why he's on the wrong side of history. As long as Marx wasn't deliberately trying to sabotage mankind, which is unlikely altogether for almost all famous men, he remains blameless to me.

This is interesting. 1w9s are hard workers, frequently work-a-holics. It's the 'right' thing to do to work hard or to achieve X. They need to be of service to others and that drives them hard. 3s are also hard workers. For them it's about the pleasure of achieving (and avoidance of shame at lower levels). They're assertive by nature. Both 1s and 3s basic response to resolving inner conflicts is to 'earn' (6 does too).
I did not mean to say that I don't work hard under any condition. Just that I can't stop doubting whether hard work really is the right ladder to climb. In truth, it's more of a skepticism towards the premises, an analysis of values, rather than a doubt aimed directly at the concept of hard work. In the right direction, hard work is the only way, but is the direction right?

I hate the prospect of knowing I worked my ass off for something wrong.

Can you say exactly what you fear, exactly what gives you the anxiety? Any further descriptions of how you feel may be helpful.
Uncertainty. I dribble my way across all the players on the court only to miss the layup at the last moment because right at the moment I jumped, a question flashed 'Will I make it?', and since there is no answer except shutting down the question, something goes wrong in that split second and I miss the shot. In normal circumstances, there's no consequence to winning or losing, and so there is no thought about whether I'll make it or not. Fear of failure associated with uncertainty about succeeding, is a terrible combination. Part of it goes back to childhood; parents used to be busy with their own stuff and I was expected to show results without any guidance. I'd be sent to competitions, alone or with my equally clueless brother, and expected to compete with kids who somehow were always accompanied by their parents, clad in proper kit and speaking jargon I wouldn't even dream of conjuring. In those moments, I felt like I've just landed on a whole new planet and it's better if I quietly remove myself from it rather than embarrassing myself in front of everyone because of how clueless and out of sorts I am.

The hardest part was the scolding, sometimes beating, after the inevitable defeat. It felt like a waste. I knew that I failed, they didn't have to remind me or punish me for that. Part of me never wanted to compete on these fronts and I didn't know how to get serious about something I do only to enjoy. So I can understand my father's frustration; it continues to this day because I've refused competing in almost everything I was good at. I felt impotent, worthless, and just a waste. But it wasn't a constant feeling; it's easier to reject society than to remain depressed. There eventually came a point, after my father went away for 2 years for his studies, when I more or less set myself free. I stopped doing sports altogether, even stopped studying for the sake of getting grades. Life at that point was all about doing the fun thing. But not the teenager kind of fun -- drugs, parties, cigarettes, and whatever. I preferred to stick to video games, anime, quirky military simulations with my friends through the school corridors etc.

During that time, I discovered I'm better at influencing people than I am at competing with them. And I definitely only act like myself when I'm already granted a pedestal. I can't play any other role. The kind of things I can do when I know that someone is looking up to me sometimes surprise myself. I had a junior once who thought I was really good at Cricket. I didn't want him to know that I was actually one of the worst players among the ones I played regularly with. They were all 20+ and I was the odd 14 old boy who could keep up but wasn't quite there yet. The day I took my junior to the ground with me became one of the most memorable days on that ground. I successfully chased down a target of 84 in just 6 overs by myself (not sure if you can understand the Cricket jargon but that was a big deal -- one of the best innings ever played there). Same case when I had to lead my noob team in hockey; we lost but I was the highlight of the game.

In a nutshell, I think you've summed it up quite well here:

Do you feel you should be, in a sense, serving people (as a leader) or uplifting people etc rather than competing with them? Do you think it may be possible that you are so programmed to lead/work with people (e1s are 'over-social'), that competing with people, in a sense working against them/separating yourself from them, just feels really wrong to e1 sx/so you?
This gets to the heart of the matter, in my view.

Withdrawn response. Without knowing the exact feeling, it's hard to pick 5 or 4 here. Although I will say that this 5 doesn't do that (look to what others are doing -- who cares -- and compare myself and fret). It does seem 4ish. The question here is: is that differentness deliberate or a source of pride, at least subconsciously.
It's not deliberate. I do things, and they are somehow always different, sometimes radically. Not sure of the reasons but why would I be proud of something which causes me anxiety?

That must have been really tough. This is distinctly not e3 behavior. What's interesting is that it's been happening for so long (doesn't look like a temporary dip from e1 to e4 -- unless you disintegrate every time you feel this pressure). Do you have issues with perfectionism?
Yes. That's why I work better with deadlines. If you don't give me any, I'd rarely finish anything.

Do you feel overwhelmed in those circumstances? How do you, Mr E1 Standards Setter, feel about other people setting the standards?
Not overwhelmed, just out of control. Like losing touch with my body.

Unique eh? You mean positively memorable to yourself or others or both? Do you feel 'one' with your body? Any disconnect there ('disembodied brain')? When you're doing sports does it feel like you have to think first and that slows you down but when you're doing it for fun you don't do think first, you just instinctively act?
Others, of course. I rarely remember the things I do, no matter how well I do them. I remember events by other people's remembrance. They tell me when I was great or bad. And yes, I do feel like a disembodied brain except when I'm playing for fun alone, as alluded to before.

As an INTJ I'm a little frightened to ask this, but how much do you 'love' people (or 'your' people) in the most general sense? Bc if I were to put this into SX terms and compare my sx/sp self, I could never compete against my (future) husband, it's unthinkable, it's not even possible really since we will be 'one' and genuine putting one of us above the other competing (not just being playful/silly) would be breaking that special connection/bond. Now I'm wondering if this is why you are far more sympathetic to Marx than I. Interesting.
I thought about this question for a moment and I got a tear in my eye. I'm not sure if you can call it love of the people, but in the end it always comes down to a yearning towards what we would all like to see in our lives. I just want to get there with everyone as fast as possible, leaving no one behind. This is what I can't differentiate: whether it is a love for that ideal state of affairs or the love of people. The way I feel it, it goes together. Perhaps in the end it's a personal desire; a quiet remembrance of the things I want to see but cannot and then I project this melancholy onto everyone and then feel it is my duty to assist everyone in that goal. There's no clear transformation to the social from the personal. And preferably, I'd rather there be no distinction.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
I did not mean to say that I don't work hard under any condition. Just that I can't stop doubting whether hard work really is the right ladder to climb. In truth, it's more of a skepticism towards the premises, an analysis of values, rather than a doubt aimed directly at the concept of hard work. In the right direction, hard work is the only way, but is the direction right?

I hate the prospect of knowing I worked my ass off for something wrong.
Is this (below) a factor -- it being more about being right than working hard?:
"The Sx/So places their hopes for fulfillment of their primary instinct (and ultimately, their survival) in their cunning, cleverness, and ability to make the right choices and decisions. When things don't work out, an Sx/So may wonder what they could have done differently to have more success. This makes Sx/So's come off as enterprising masters of their own destiny. Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way."

Uncertainty. I dribble my way across all the players on the court only to miss the layup at the last moment because right at the moment I jumped, a question flashed 'Will I make it?', and since there is no answer except shutting down the question, something goes wrong in that split second and I miss the shot. In normal circumstances, there's no consequence to winning or losing, and so there is no thought about whether I'll make it or not. Fear of failure associated with uncertainty about succeeding, is a terrible combination. Part of it goes back to childhood; parents used to be busy with their own stuff and I was expected to show results without any guidance. I'd be sent to competitions, alone or with my equally clueless brother, and expected to compete with kids who somehow were always accompanied by their parents, clad in proper kit and speaking jargon I wouldn't even dream of conjuring. In those moments, I felt like I've just landed on a whole new planet and it's better if I quietly remove myself from it rather than embarrassing myself in front of everyone because of how clueless and out of sorts I am.

The hardest part was the scolding, sometimes beating, after the inevitable defeat. It felt like a waste. I knew that I failed, they didn't have to remind me or punish me for that. Part of me never wanted to compete on these fronts and I didn't know how to get serious about something I do only to enjoy. So I can understand my father's frustration; it continues to this day because I've refused competing in almost everything I was good at. I felt impotent, worthless, and just a waste. But it wasn't a constant feeling; it's easier to reject society than to remain depressed. There eventually came a point, after my father went away for 2 years for his studies, when I more or less set myself free. I stopped doing sports altogether, even stopped studying for the sake of getting grades. Life at that point was all about doing the fun thing. But not the teenager kind of fun -- drugs, parties, cigarettes, and whatever. I preferred to stick to video games, anime, quirky military simulations with my friends through the school corridors etc.

During that time, I discovered I'm better at influencing people than I am at competing with them. And I definitely only act like myself when I'm already granted a pedestal. I can't play any other role. The kind of things I can do when I know that someone is looking up to me sometimes surprise myself. I had a junior once who thought I was really good at Cricket. I didn't want him to know that I was actually one of the worst players among the ones I played regularly with. They were all 20+ and I was the odd 14 old boy who could keep up but wasn't quite there yet. The day I took my junior to the ground with me became one of the most memorable days on that ground. I successfully chased down a target of 84 in just 6 overs by myself (not sure if you can understand the Cricket jargon but that was a big deal -- one of the best innings ever played there). Same case when I had to lead my noob team in hockey; we lost but I was the highlight of the game.
The bolded made me smile. That's awesome. I lived in Australia until I was 12, so yeah, I'm familiar with Cricket -- very impressive score. So when someone is looking up to you and believes in you, you can do it. But not without that 'hierarchical' aspect in place beforehand. To me this shows that your enneagram/survival instinct is behind this. We can talk more what's underlying this 'fear of failure'; a fear of social evaluation/other's expectations/letting others down/losing respect etc and how you're meant to be less tightly controlling, less perfectionistic and more trusting in your skills but it's so obviously your survival instinct getting in the mix (with the pedestal/'serving' someone other than yourself/leading rather than competing factor), I'm not sure it would help. It seems like you'd be better trying for leadership somehow instead, grab a noob before play or make your bff sit through every game. It sucks that this stuff isn't widely understood so you could just tell your coach/team and they try you out in a leadership position.

The other thing that needs to be said here is that, when you think about it, e1 is like a blueprint for creating fear of failure. You could almost say that's what e1 is. The unconscious fear for e1 is "of being imperfect" (it's said the childhood message they heard was "you're bad") which leads to the compensating unconscious desire: "to be perfect". Hence the issues with perfectionism. 'May have learned from childhood they will be severely reprimanded if make mistakes' (it sounds like you experienced this). Others things to have come from subconscious belief include: "I can never be out of control", "I'm responsible for making everything right", "to be loved, I must be perfect" ('love' will have a wider meaning for a sx/so). And from that come the coping strategies like "comparing self to others", "getting things right", "being self controlled", "being ultra responsible/reliable" (I must... I ought... I should...) I also personally wonder whether I person who has high expectations of others and is easily disappointed (and similar) might be inclined to imagine other people are watching/judging just as harshly in return.

Given all ^that, the standard advice given to people with a fear of failure to be less controlling and 'let go' just doesn't seem to cut it. It would be convenient if you could integrate some e7 at will but I'm figuring that if you could have you would have and even though e1 is likely how/where this fear grew, your instinct has a hand in it which makes it even harder to navigate around. When your Dad went away for 2 years (!) did you feel like you'd been bad? You were depressed?

Here's some stuff on unhealthy 1s. The first paragraph doesn't apply to you but I'm leaving it for comparative purposes (the awful rigid e1s). Taken from http://www.russellrowe.com/enneagram-types/enneagram-type-1-description.pdf

Unhealthy Ones can exhibit one of two different behaviors and often both. On the one hand, they can become extremely impatient and frustrated with anything less than perfection in themselves or others. They can be closed-minded and convinced that they’re always right, that they know “the truth.” They begin to reproach others for not living up to their ideals, for not being all that they could be. They tend to alienate others by being dogmatic, controlling, rigidly inflexible, self-righteous and intolerant. They can be moralizing and preachy, scolding and lecturing others to try harder lest they continue to make mistakes or sin. They can become indignant, bitter and angry at others for not listening to them. This is the kind of person that is a Bible-thumping fundamentalist Christian who stands on the sidewalk of a busy street yelling, “You must repent for your wayward sins in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ or you will go to the fiery recesses of hell!”

Some unhealthy Ones can become more depressive and feel alienated. They feel as if nobody understands them and their ideals. They work so hard and for what? Nobody even seems to care about their ideals. They can become hopeless, melancholy, withdrawn, resigned and inwardly angry. They yearn to be free of their responsibilities, burdens and obligations and may spend more time daydreaming, fantasizing, romanticizing and longing for things to be different (like unhealthy Fours). They can become envious and resentful of others’ better lives. They can become painfully self- conscious and socially withdrawn. [How much do you relate to this paragraph?]

Unhealthy Ones may realize, on some level, that life is not working for them. If they can see that other people don’t share their same beliefs and yet their lives are working for them they may begin to recognize that their own beliefs and way of viewing the world may be distorted, limited or flawed somehow. This realization can be a turning point if unhealthy Ones are willing to claim some responsibility for their lives and seek assistance from a counselor, therapist or other support person. If unhealthy Ones continue to feel victimized rather than claiming responsibility for their life then they may deteriorate to the destructive level.

Destructive Ones lack adequate life coping skills. They probably came from a highly dysfunctional family and/or suffered a severe crisis in life that totally devastated their self-esteem and self-worth. Their mind torments them and unless they get some kind of help they will continue to live a miserable existence.

Destructive Ones have intense feelings of disillusionment and severe depressions alternating with outbursts of rage and condemnation. They can exhibit obsessive thinking and compulsive behavior. They are extremely self-righteous, judgmental and obsessed about the wrongdoings of others yet they are hypocritical because they may do the very same things they are condemning in others, or worse. Destructive Ones can alternate between instinctive self-indulgence and punitive self-control. They may, for example, get drunk, binge and purge or carry on an affair with someone but then will feel extremely guilty, berate themselves and repent, only to find themselves acting out the same behavior again. What is going on is that the destructive One’s unconscious instinctive drives are at war with their own superego (inner critic). They are unconsciously acting out all their repressed desires and can’t stop themselves. While doing exactly what they are condemning others for they somehow manage to rationalize and justify their own contradictory behavior to escape punishment from their superego. If they come to believe that some part of themselves is responsible for their immoral acting out they can become masochistically self-punishing or self-mutilating. At worst, they may have a nervous breakdown, commit murder or suicide.

Type One with an Unhealthy Connection to Type Four: When Ones deteriorate to the negative aspects of type Four it is usually because they are confronted with the fearful recognition that their beliefs, opinions and views about people and life may actually be wrong or at least flawed because they aren’t working or making them happy. They may also fear ever being able to live up to their ideal self. At this point their anxiety and stress can start to exceed their coping strategies. They can become more self-absorbed and turn their anger inward, becoming depressed. They can feel as though life is hopeless and meaningless as they become more disenchanted, disillusioned and disappointed with themselves and others. They can withdraw into romantic fantasies and long for what they don’t have and yet doubt ever being able to get it. They can have a profound sense of dissatisfaction with people and reality the way it is. They yearn to live in a more perfect, ideal world and yet feel helpless to do anything about it. They become envious, comparing themselves to happy, successful people OR completely self-loathing because they aren’t at all like their ideal self. Their idealistic expectations of others and life are not being met either. They can become emotional, moody, socially withdrawn, painfully self- conscious, self-indulgent, hostile and stormy. At worst, they can turn their own high standards against themselves and punish themselves for their fatally flawed self and/or “bad” behavior.

...why would I be proud of something which causes me anxiety?
It's not that simple when the subconscious is involved.

Not overwhelmed, just out of control. Like losing touch with my body.

Others, of course. I rarely remember the things I do, no matter how well I do them. I remember events by other people's remembrance. They tell me when I was great or bad.
And there we have it (the bolded). I assume that hurts a lot -- if they say you were bad. I have this thing being a sx/sp with an e1 influence that if my man tells me I'm good, I'm delighted. If he were to ever say he was displeased/disappointed it would crush me. I don't know if it's so extreme for you, but if it is -- if everyone has the ability to do that... that's a lot of pressure. But between the perfectionism, the need for control & the social orientation/judgement, this is all very normal e1 'problems'.

I thought about this question for a moment and I got a tear in my eye. I'm not sure if you can call it love of the people, but in the end it always comes down to a yearning towards what we would all like to see in our lives. I just want to get there with everyone as fast as possible, leaving no one behind. This is what I can't differentiate: whether it is a love for that ideal state of affairs or the love of people. The way I feel it, it goes together.
:) It looks like your sx/so 'relationship' with people and your 1w9 idealism work together to produce this effect in you. It's a doubling effect too, twice the value for positive change, twice the pressure to take ownership (sx/so as leader of your people and 1w9s urge to be an above it activist & take responsibility in the first place). Note the 1w9 influence in me does not produce this same effect. The pressure on you must be enormous. I expect enneagram theory would be advising to let pressure off by integrating more 7. I wonder though whether someone versed in the 'great men of history' can realistically drop comparing himself to 'let go'.

Perhaps in the end it's a personal desire; a quiet remembrance of the things I want to see but cannot and then I project this melancholy onto everyone and then feel it is my duty to assist everyone in that goal. There's no clear transformation to the social from the personal. And preferably, I'd rather there be no distinction.
Standard e1 problems. That's not to belittle them, simply categorize them. Fwiw I'm confident you'll find your way.

I think it's better to look for answers in your instinct & e1 (the bigger factors) as much as possible and then look at e3/4/5. It's too easy with you to look at single small details -- like you withdraw to fantasize about leading or you withdrawing from competing -- and see that as a 4 or 5 (respectively) rather than part of your bigger sx/so e1 picture.

You have a personality which by it's very nature creates an enormous amount of pressure on itself. You are bound to have bends & breaks as a natural part of that. That's right; I said it -- you aren't bad :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,042 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Is this (below) a factor -- it being more about being right than working hard?:
"The Sx/So places their hopes for fulfillment of their primary instinct (and ultimately, their survival) in their cunning, cleverness, and ability to make the right choices and decisions. When things don't work out, an Sx/So may wonder what they could have done differently to have more success. This makes Sx/So's come off as enterprising masters of their own destiny. Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way."
Yes. But this order of preference does not presuppose any premises. So even in context of school competitions, I should be able to do the 'right thing' which is : Perform to my fullest, without thinking.

It sucks that this stuff isn't widely understood so you could just tell your coach/team and they try you out in a leadership position.
But then I'd feel unqualified and most likely will be unqualified. Team leaders, especially ones who teach by example, are only effective in the long run, once the team gets 'used' to them. No one can wait that long for a leader who wasn't even elected on merit.

I also personally wonder whether I person who has high expectations of others and is easily disappointed (and similar) might be inclined to imagine other people are watching/judging just as harshly in return.
I'm a harsh judge only when it comes to presentations, speeches, essays, debates etc-- intellectual stuff basically. In sports, I'm actually quite sympathizing. I know exactly in how many ways a person can fail so even if I find fault, I have tons of other encouraging stuff to say too. Classic Dunning-Kruger effect.

When your Dad went away for 2 years (!) did you feel like you'd been bad? You were depressed?
No. Compared to what I became after he was gone, I was a really good boy before. I felt liberated in fact. No more useless scolding; for the first time, I could partake relatively freely. I partook in less and less games after that but my winning frequency was the highest during that period.

Here's some stuff on unhealthy 1s. The first paragraph doesn't apply to you but I'm leaving it for comparative purposes (the awful rigid e1s). Taken from http://www.russellrowe.com/enneagram-types/enneagram-type-1-description.pdf

Unhealthy Ones can exhibit one of two different behaviors and often both. On the one hand, they can become extremely impatient and frustrated with anything less than perfection in themselves or others. They can be closed-minded and convinced that they’re always right, that they know “the truth.” They begin to reproach others for not living up to their ideals, for not being all that they could be. They tend to alienate others by being dogmatic, controlling, rigidly inflexible, self-righteous and intolerant. They can be moralizing and preachy, scolding and lecturing others to try harder lest they continue to make mistakes or sin. They can become indignant, bitter and angry at others for not listening to them. This is the kind of person that is a Bible-thumping fundamentalist Christian who stands on the sidewalk of a busy street yelling, “You must repent for your wayward sins in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ or you will go to the fiery recesses of hell!”
I've been there.

Some unhealthy Ones can become more depressive and feel alienated. They feel as if nobody understands them and their ideals. They work so hard and for what? Nobody even seems to care about their ideals. They can become hopeless, melancholy, withdrawn, resigned and inwardly angry. They yearn to be free of their responsibilities, burdens and obligations and may spend more time daydreaming, fantasizing, romanticizing and longing for things to be different (like unhealthy Fours). They can become envious and resentful of others’ better lives. They can become painfully self- conscious and socially withdrawn. [How much do you relate to this paragraph?]
10/10. Feels like I'm always there.

Unhealthy Ones may realize, on some level, that life is not working for them. If they can see that other people don’t share their same beliefs and yet their lives are working for them they may begin to recognize that their own beliefs and way of viewing the world may be distorted, limited or flawed somehow. This realization can be a turning point if unhealthy Ones are willing to claim some responsibility for their lives and seek assistance from a counselor, therapist or other support person. If unhealthy Ones continue to feel victimized rather than claiming responsibility for their life then they may deteriorate to the destructive level.
Flashbacks to apostasy, ayyy lmao.

Type One with an Unhealthy Connection to Type Four: When Ones deteriorate to the negative aspects of type Four it is usually because they are confronted with the fearful recognition that their beliefs, opinions and views about people and life may actually be wrong or at least flawed because they aren’t working or making them happy. They may also fear ever being able to live up to their ideal self. At this point their anxiety and stress can start to exceed their coping strategies. They can become more self-absorbed and turn their anger inward, becoming depressed. They can feel as though life is hopeless and meaningless as they become more disenchanted, disillusioned and disappointed with themselves and others. They can withdraw into romantic fantasies and long for what they don’t have and yet doubt ever being able to get it. They can have a profound sense of dissatisfaction with people and reality the way it is. They yearn to live in a more perfect, ideal world and yet feel helpless to do anything about it. They become envious, comparing themselves to happy, successful people OR completely self-loathing because they aren’t at all like their ideal self. Their idealistic expectations of others and life are not being met either. They can become emotional, moody, socially withdrawn, painfully self- conscious, self-indulgent, hostile and stormy. At worst, they can turn their own high standards against themselves and punish themselves for their fatally flawed self and/or “bad” behavior.
Been there too. It looks like a cycle to me, in which I go from 1 to 4 and make my longest and most pointless sojourn there. On coming back to better days, though, I dearly miss those melancholy and destructive days. I feel those days as the most intimate parts of my life; as if people can take away everything from me except those days of misery.

The last stage of the cycle is 5. This is my launching pad. I'd been feeling hollow for the last few weeks and yesterday I finally picked up a philosophy book and started reading it. Didn't know Schopenhauer could be that uplifting. Looking back in fact I was looking for something 'beautiful'. It just so happens my idea of beautiful is quite cerebral. In better times, I used to prove mathematical theorems in my textbook to uplift myself. The happiest period of my life was also preceded by this limbo state of reading books and thinking myself to sleep on the balcony. Right before that period were the darkest months I've lived so far, stuck between getting kicked out of house for apostasy, parent's divorce, lovesickness, and seeing no future for myself except a miraculous ones -- and I was quite ready to believe in that miracle; in other words, to die for it. If I hadn't rediscovered Camus and Dostoevsky then, I'd probably be on the road now.

It's not that simple when the subconscious is involved.
Well, then, the answer is just no. I do feel good when my unique methods turn out to be right but I don't feel down when my answer is the same as everyone but is still correct. It's about being right; if I'm right, I'm happy.

And there we have it (the bolded). I assume that hurts a lot -- if they say you were bad. I have this thing being a sx/sp with an e1 influence that if my man tells me I'm good, I'm delighted. If he were to ever say he was displeased/disappointed it would crush me. I don't know if it's so extreme for you, but if it is -- if everyone has the ability to do that... that's a lot of pressure. But between the perfectionism, the need for control & the social orientation/judgement, this is all very normal e1 'problems'.
I've steeled myself against criticisms on my performance in sports. But if someone smart tells me that I made a bad argument, or that I've always been unintelligent, I can't sleep for days. That's something I just can't numb myself to. My intellect is the last refuge of my self-esteem. I have nothing else but my thoughts that I can always count on. And if this part of me is discarded, I evaporate. For some time, I disappear and repeat the cycle.

:) It looks like your sx/so 'relationship' with people and your 1w9 idealism work together to produce this effect in you. It's a doubling effect too, twice the value for positive change, twice the pressure to take ownership (sx/so as leader of your people and 1w9s urge to be an above it activist & take responsibility in the first place). Note the 1w9 influence in me does not produce this same effect. The pressure on you must be enormous. I expect enneagram theory would be advising to let pressure off by integrating more 7. I wonder though whether someone versed in the 'great men of history' can realistically drop comparing himself to 'let go'.
On the contrary, I'm at my happiest when I compare myself with the great men of history. I atrophy when I find myself stuck in other races. The historical race is a more comfortable and intimate place for me. That's where I am when I am alone. It's more or less my comfort zone. The real world, though, now that's a scary and unknown place. Even a security guard seems more capable than myself; he has a uniform, a posture, and a definite place in this universe. Looking at him I realize that my place is only my room. And that's a depressing realization. It's only when I successfully integrate real world action with my personal thoughts that I can say, without a doubt, I'm happy. But that period of integration never lasts long. I burn out too easily. And although my performance doesn't deteriorate too much, I start to feel hollow again.

I think it's better to look for answers in your instinct & e1 (the bigger factors) as much as possible and then look at e3/4/5. It's too easy with you to look at single small details -- like you withdraw to fantasize about leading or you withdrawing from competing -- and see that as a 4 or 5 (respectively) rather than part of your bigger sx/so e1 picture.

You have a personality which by it's very nature creates an enormous amount of pressure on itself. You are bound to have bends & breaks as a natural part of that. That's right; I said it -- you aren't bad :)
I'm convinced that I'm e1 core at this point. I hope what I've written above provides enough information about my tritype. There's got to be something about my way of coping with my standard e1 problems that is unique to a particular tritype. From the descriptions I've read, 154 is the closest fit, even thought e4, as we've discovered, resonates less than e3 with me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dare

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,264 Posts
I'm convinced that I'm e1 core at this point. I hope what I've written above provides enough information about my tritype. There's got to be something about my way of coping with my standard e1 problems that is unique to a particular tritype. From the descriptions I've read, 154 is the closest fit, even thought e4, as we've discovered, resonates less than e3 with me.
If your "cycle" is 1-->4-->5, then that is most likely your tritype (as you picked originally). More specifically I'd guess 1w9 4w3 5w6. I expect the disintegrating from 1 to 4 is creating a doubling effect on your second type which is why you wondered if it was actually your core/first type. Without any doubt, you are an sx/so e1.

Bc of the disintegration factor, you being a Te dominant and not identifying with key e4 things, it made it hard to rule out e3. It's still possible your 4w3 is actually 3w4, although I now believe this is unlikely. If the assertive influence of the 3 (if you have it) kicks in, you'll know it. 145 has no 'positive outlook', is 'double frustration', 'double withdrawn' and no 'assertive'. No wonder you "burn out too easily" when trying to integrate real world action & your personal thoughts.

I went through a depressed phase a few years ago, it was all dark stuff with Camus & Thom Yorke and whatever other 451ish influences I could find. At some point for me it clicked and I realized I was choosing to be depressed (and happy seemed more 'fuck you' & more energizing for kicking the world back in the teeth). So I stopped. I never (consciously) enjoyed those intense painful feelings and don't miss that time. But then I only have a 4 wing -- I'm not a four at all. That you miss your "days of misery" is a big hint that you really do have a 4 in your tritype.

Until explained otherwise I'm assuming you're cloaking the envy a 4 feels from yourself somehow. It appears you are envious of a security guard in what you last wrote. Of course, having a 4 in your tritype isn't the same as being a 4 -- you're always an e1 -- so perhaps you envy less than a core 4 would.

Now that I'm comfortable you aren't covertly a 135, yes I also like the 145 'Researcher' tritype descriptions best for you. I wish more was written on tritype. Katherine Fauvre (inventor of tritype) has a $10 tritype test on her site (enneagram.net) which presumably comes with more info. I never took it bc my tritype, unlike yours :), was really easy to spot & be sure of.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top