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Discussion Starter #1
We want an analytical subject that stays obsessively interesting because it constantly yields a high value to other people.

What can we stay interested in learning about for long periods of time? Preferably something that will have the potential to make harmony for others.

The paradox of our personality type is that we are intellectual adrenaline junkies. Our main drive is searching for possibilities...the greatest possibilities in fact. Then next is consistently building up an understanding of something into a holistic system. The final drive is to serve others through creating something that will produce harmony between others in the world. That's what we find meaningful. The reason this tends to be a paradox is that for almost every system ever, the higher up in complexity of learning you go, the lower your yielded value towards serving harmony vs labor input. That's why we lose interest. It no longer feels like it's meaningful. That happens with almost everything in reality because basically reality is a closed system. It's like astronomy. We are learning abour enourmous stars away, but the value to humans isn't really there as much. Or at least the perceived value isn't that much.

Is there any field that yields an increasing/not-decreasing value for others the more you learn about it or do it? I'm thinking mabye the only way to keep the fun is to decrease the amount of time you have to respond. It keeps you in the moment permanently. Perhapd built for a stock trader. The problem is that high risk is not profitable for companies. To insure maximum value they focus on reducing risk and maximizing profits. Yields consistency and investers. What are the fields that yield high value of serving others and keep you in the moment for focusing on possibilities that are analytical? There has to be a focus on being in the moment, that's what will keep Ne permanently energizing.
 

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I don't think Ne and thinking in possibilities should be thought so much as keeping ourselves entertained and being "intellectual adrenaline junkies" or achieve harmony, I think it should just be thought of as the main type of logic we use to develop, evaluate and form our beliefs.

I think occam's razor and a process of elimination are two synonyms for E--P thinking style which is just a mattter of gather possibilities, comparining them, eliminating the ones that are weak, choosing the ones that are most plausible, and continuing to do that over and over and focus on doing that.

In comparison, I believe I--P works by focusing on one possibility at a time and examining in detail.

I--J works by building up gathering evidence to support a possibility,

And E--J works by actively testing out possibilities.

I don't think E--P is really a matter of being ADHD and taking risks, though it can involve that, promote that, and appear like that's what's going on... but I think it's better to just call it using Occam's Razor. I mean maybe we are "intellectual adrenaline junkies" because we're always looking for new possibilities to compare, but if we weren't always looking for new possibilities, then we'd be in one of the other camps, always examining details or trying to build up a case, or looking to test something out. ..and we do do those things too, just not as much as we look for new possibilities to consider.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I don't think Ne and thinking in possibilities should be thought so much as keeping ourselves entertained and being "intellectual adrenaline junkies" or achieve harmony, I think it should just be thought of as the main type of logic we use to develop, evaluate and form our beliefs.

I think occam's razor and a process of elimination are two synonyms for E--P thinking style which is just a mattter of gather possibilities, comparining them, eliminating the ones that are weak, choosing the ones that are most plausible, and continuing to do that over and over and focus on doing that.

In comparison, I believe I--P works by focusing on one possibility at a time and examining in detail.

I--J works by building up gathering evidence to support a possibility,

And E--J works by actively testing out possibilities.

I don't think E--P is really a matter of being ADHD and taking risks, though it can involve that, promote that, and appear like that's what's going on... but I think it's better to just call it using Occam's Razor. I mean maybe we are "intellectual adrenaline junkies" because we're always looking for new possibilities to compare, but if we weren't always looking for new possibilities, then we'd be in one of the other camps, always examining details or trying to build up a case, or looking to test something out. ..and we do do those things too, just not as much as we look for new possibilities to consider.
I think this i actually what I'm getting at. We enjoy possibilities. You can read in Jungs original description an entp true moral compass, just like se, is actually overruled by large amount of possibility. But we want meaningful and we find harmony meaningful. I.e. the analytical work has to serve others weighing possibility potential of analytical systems vs helping others. Its the possibilities we want. Im saying closed knowledge systems tend to have diminishing returns of excitedness, but case by case things might offer significantly more. Mabye emt, project management, stock broker etc
 

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I think this i actually what I'm getting at. We enjoy possibilities. You can read in Jungs original description an entp true moral compass, just like se, is actually overruled by large amount of possibility. But we want meaningful and we find harmony meaningful. I.e. the analytical work has to serve others weighing possibility potential of analytical systems vs helping others. Its the possibilities we want. Im saying closed knowledge systems tend to have diminishing returns of excitedness, but case by case things might offer significantly more. Mabye emt, project management, stock broker etc
i don't know that I really understand what you're saying, but I don't feel like entps "want meaningful and we find harmony meaningful" any more than any other type

but i don't know what you mean by "closed knowledge systems" so i'm a bit lost
 

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Discussion Starter #5
i don't know that I really understand what you're saying, but I don't feel like entps "want meaningful and we find harmony meaningful" any more than any other type

but i don't know what you mean by "closed knowledge systems" so i'm a bit lost
So the "harmony"=meaning for us follows from Fe being in our functional stack. Fi is aimed at more individualized meaning it seems, doing what individually you feel your body is pushing for. Fe sees harmony being produced(determined by our higher Ti since it is going to, in general, be given greater importance due to being higher in the stack).

By a closed knowledge system I'm talking about a structure of knowledge that is not "gaining" in volume holistically. Like the rules of volleyball(similar to the rules of reality). You can study them, and then study minute rules, and more minute rules. And then you make have to seek out more obscure rules continuously. Philosophy also is simply trying to explain reality(a closed system essentially, or at least one that is closed with relation to our value function(fe) that is desiring for human harmony). The only time you look up something unmeaningful is because it offers enough possibility and analysis value that it satisfies you..like playing a game in your youth in gym class or something.

Over time in these closed systems things become increasingly irrelevant on large scales to people it seems. A plateau of knowledge, where the value you get in return for "studying more" doesn't really entertain us anymore. ENTP with their high Ne tend to grab the overarching structure/logical concepts and then they move on. The possibility isn't there anymore and there may be little motivation from Fe. To maximize your potential you need something that sustains high levels of possibility(Ne) as well as serves other people through helping achieve harmony(Fe) and best through logical systems(Ti). Since those "closed systems of knowledge" plateau in interest for us until its no longer interesting, it'd be best to look to something like CS where you have entreprenurial imagination for serving people and then you can just make it in CS. Or EMT where you are forced to see highest possibilities for action inside a structure of knowledge. Hopefully I'm making more sense here this time
 

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Religion? Spirituality? Life and death....philosophy?
Human nature and the condition of?
Anthropology?

Any of the above have no real known end point in as far as fact. Try hitting the bottom of those barrels.

Outside of some religions and anthropology the remaining options will always leave more
to be discovered. They all can be source to make others feel harmonized or whatever it
is you are saying.
 

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So the "harmony"=meaning for us follows from Fe being in our functional stack. Fi is aimed at more individualized meaning it seems, doing what individually you feel your body is pushing for. Fe sees harmony being produced(determined by our higher Ti since it is going to, in general, be given greater importance due to being higher in the stack).

By a closed knowledge system I'm talking about a structure of knowledge that is not "gaining" in volume holistically. Like the rules of volleyball(similar to the rules of reality). You can study them, and then study minute rules, and more minute rules. And then you make have to seek out more obscure rules continuously. Philosophy also is simply trying to explain reality(a closed system essentially, or at least one that is closed with relation to our value function(fe) that is desiring for human harmony). The only time you look up something unmeaningful is because it offers enough possibility and analysis value that it satisfies you..like playing a game in your youth in gym class or something.

Over time in these closed systems things become increasingly irrelevant on large scales to people it seems. A plateau of knowledge, where the value you get in return for "studying more" doesn't really entertain us anymore. ENTP with their high Ne tend to grab the overarching structure/logical concepts and then they move on. The possibility isn't there anymore and there may be little motivation from Fe. To maximize your potential you need something that sustains high levels of possibility(Ne) as well as serves other people through helping achieve harmony(Fe) and best through logical systems(Ti). Since those "closed systems of knowledge" plateau in interest for us until its no longer interesting, it'd be best to look to something like CS where you have entreprenurial imagination for serving people and then you can just make it in CS. Or EMT where you are forced to see highest possibilities for action inside a structure of knowledge. Hopefully I'm making more sense here this time
you're kinda losing me more tbh :confused:

like i didn't know volleyball was complicated ... or is that what you're saying that "closed knowledge systems" are things that you can master what there is to know about them easily and thus they no longer provide a source for learning and curiosity? as in by closed knowledge system, you mean something where there is a limit of what you can learn about it? ..your language isn't very clear to me and so its hard for me to understand the point you're trying to make
 

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@Bhathaway I think your writing style is suffering from what's referred to as "the curse of knowledge" where you assume we know things that you know... like as I said "closed knowledge systems" isn't a term I'm familiar w/

you also used the abbreviation CS in your last post which you failed to define... was thinking maybe you were abbreviating "closed system" but that didn't make sense, trying googling and got "counterstrike" only occured to me know as writing this that maybe you meant computer science, that would make sense ... it's kinda feels like you're making assumptions that we know exactly how to interpret what you're writing, and I certainly don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge
 

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So...i thought adrenaline caused blood to rush more to the extremities than the brain. The idea is for it to gear us up to be ready for fight or flight. Not usually the best thing for thinking or coming up with ideas. This might be why there is such an emphasis about calming down test anxiety in school now because adrenaline rushes or cortisol isn't going to help with being able to think straight. I like adrenaline when i exercise and etc but i wouldnt say i am a junkie or want it when i'm trying to think .It might not be tied to any personality type actually. Everyone has a different way of escaping or feeling good. i can also see it being more tied into ennegram than MBTI.

As for the closed systems...would the universe be considered a closed system if philosophy of reality is? I guess if that's the case, some closed systems are expansive enough that i do not think i will ever master everything within it. There's a lot of things that we have nowadays were created as a collective of human minds, and because of that it might not be overly possible for just one mind to completely understand what millions of minds have put together. Maybe i'm just naive but there's never been a point in my life i thought i learned everything there was i need to know and that i no longer have anything to look at anymore. Actually i tend to go through the opposite effect where the more i learn the more i realize i don't know shit. Studying just keeps adding to my perception of the world and it just seems to get bigger and bigger, not smaller. That in itself makes me study more but i do jump around all over the place because there's so many cool things to learn about.

anyways i am an EMT right now and i do enjoy it. It is a field that i guess an ENTP could enjoy, but any field could be. It's a matter of perception. First, i don't think i fully agree that we desire harmony. I mean we do have Fe and like it but it's third in our stack. Maybe it's more preferable than necessary? I'm sure some people can go through their lives and not contribute to harmony and feel just as happy as anyone else. The other thing is, people can rationalize anything as adding to harmony or whatever it is that gives them meaning. Anyways, MBTI explains how we process things but not what those conclusions of what we process are or what the meaning to our lives would be.

I may not be understanding this at all but i decided to wing it anyways. :skeleton:
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
@Bhathaway I think your writing style is suffering from what's referred to as "the curse of knowledge" where you assume we know things that you know... like as I said "closed knowledge systems" isn't a term I'm familiar w/

you also used the abbreviation CS in your last post which you failed to define... was thinking maybe you were abbreviating "closed system" but that didn't make sense, trying googling and got "counterstrike" only occured to me know as writing this that maybe you meant computer science, that would make sense ... it's kinda feels like you're making assumptions that we know exactly how to interpret what you're writing, and I certainly don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge
Yes I meant computer science with CS. It isn't a closed system of knowledge because it is imaginative and changes over time. I don't know, that's just how I perceive it. Mabye chemistry is imaginative too, it just seems like we are slowly making less and less significant discoveries to where we don't really care as much as we once did.

That's how I seem to feel. I think it's the ne getting the general rules of reality(logic) and realizing you could kind of learn anything so long as you can do logic. You could learn it from anyone if they explain well. But you have a preference to be more social and also not so focused inwardly since dominant Ne.

The more Ti you do the less relevant to people it feels. It's also such structured work. Once you get older you understand enough fundamentals you can have a world model and things lose their encitement on learning because the cases of use become more minute. Your curiosity dies kinda as you get older right?
 

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Yes I meant computer science with CS. It isn't a closed system of knowledge because it is imaginative and changes over time. I don't know, that's just how I perceive it. Mabye chemistry is imaginative too, it just seems like we are slowly making less and less significant discoveries to where we don't really care as much as we once did.

That's how I seem to feel. I think it's the ne getting the general rules of reality(logic) and realizing you could kind of learn anything so long as you can do logic. You could learn it from anyone if they explain well. But you have a preference to be more social and also not so focused inwardly since dominant Ne.

The more Ti you do the less relevant to people it feels. It's also such structured work. Once you get older you understand enough fundamentals you can have a world model and things lose their encitement on learning because the cases of use become more minute. Your curiosity dies kinda as you get older right?
It sounds to me like you're just expressing your own personal sentiments and generalizing them to all Ne users

I don't think the world will ever get boring and run out things to interest me and peak my curiosity

I also don't feel like the only joy and reason for interest is to expand knowledge... i mean for instance you used volley ball as an example before.. there's not much to learn as far as rules and strategies, but you can forever work on developing your skill and athleticism, and even without improving any game you play is going to be fun, so I don't really see it being exhausted as a source of entertainment just because there's not much to learn and theorize about it. I don't think just looking to learn is all that makes entps tick. I think entps are just as likely to want to be a professional volleyball player as to work in computer science. (personally to me being a pro volleyball player sounds fun, whereas working in computer science sounds like torture)
 

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"We want an analytical subject that stays obsessively interesting because it constantly yields a high value to other people.

What can we stay interested in learning about for long periods of time? Preferably something that will have the potential to make harmony for others."

Don't know about others for for me that's way off the mark. Would be closer to say "find chaos meaningful". I might be a sociopath but I always kind of figured the world was doing it's thing, and I should do mine too. I don't go around looking to hurt people, but I've never seen it as my mission to make the world a better place either. Sounds hubris to me.

Never like the intellectual thing either. Don't see myself as more intelligent than most people if the definition is "ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills". What I think I do is exercise what abilities I do have to actually apply what knowledge and skills I have. Gaining additional knowledge and skills I don't think is the proper definition of intelligence. I've been to a few Mensa get togethers (as a guest) and yeah, very intelligent bunch, but I didn't see or hear much actual application of knowledge and skills. Ability sure.

I think virtual all the obsessive pursuits of knowledge and skills I've gone on have been very self focused. I went about 15 years preparing a large Thanksgiving meal and in the last few years for friends. But in the beginning I did it just for myself. The only reason friends were later invited was it just happened they didn't have anything to do. And then one year I felt like I'd pulled it off. Wasn't great, but my interest was just in the logistics, not so much the culinary aspect. At the end of dinner I said something like "I feel like I pulled this one off." And a friend instantly knew what that meant "So, you're not going to be making Thanksgiving dinner anymore?" Turned out to be true. Haven't had any interest since.

Things interest me only because they interest me. Why they do seems a complete mystery. Couple months ago someone mentioned a novel writing contest, write a 50,000 word novel in 30 days. That's about all they said about it and the web address. Don't know why, but sounded like fun. 10 days later I completed the 50,000 words. It was super intense and a great experience. Couldn't have "yield a high value to other people" because I doubt anyone will even read it. Most friends and family don't even know I did this. Mind you I'm not into novels at all. I haven't read a book in 25 years and have no plans to in the future. Never wanted to be a "writer" and still don't. It just seemed challenging and different.
 
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