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It sounds like you guys keep hurting each others' feelings by accident. And your hurt/heal cycles are not in synch.

Fixing this kind of thing requires the kind of risk taking - and demands on the other person - that doesn't sit well with me when the person is only a 'friend'. So it's kind of a tough pattern to break, if the relationship isnt a very strong one.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That is a surprise to me that I keep hurting her. I thought I didn鈥檛...
And maybe that is the biggest problem of all.
What did hurt her?
 

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I wouldn't be able to tell you. If I knew it would not be my place to speak for her on it. I'm just describing the general dynamic as it looks to me based on the info you gave.

Intjs in general care an enormous amount about not crossing boundary lines, especially by accident. When in doubt we tend to play it very safe in the way we read things. If you were trying to 'tell' her something via behaviour it may not have worked the way you intended it to.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you for your answers.

Then it's a stalemate situation.

Of what I know she has long time friends in her inner circle, but she complains a lot about them. They are all extraverted females. She even told me once, that she is just a shadow for them and she sometimes imagines her own funeral and wonders if anyone would show up. Her university friend depreciates everything that INTJ do. I pointed out that it was straightforward abuse, but INTJ insisted that they are in fact so alike, it pisses INTJ, and also there is no one else to hang out with.

I wasn't ever mean to her. I was very tactful during that argument we had. I never left her out. I was nice, and caring, and honest and just sometimes I didn't know what to do so I did nothing at all. I think it's crystal clear. With her it was never clear to me. And I need a validation. For sure I won't ask directly because my Fi would strongly disapprove such an action.
 

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You say she was flirty, but you never clarified that with her. You said, "Goodbye, best of luck," but you never said "I'll miss you. Keep in touch." It was like a dance, one step up, one step back. INTJs like to know where they stand.

When she came back to interact, you took offense at her for saying something honest and direct. Want my advice? Don't give up on your friendship, but notch down the dramatic conversation, and start discussing (or doing) things you both like.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You say she was flirty, but you never clarified that with her. You said, "Goodbye, best of luck," but you never said "I'll miss you. Keep in touch." It was like a dance, one step up, one step back. INTJs like to know where they stand.

When she came back to interact, you took offense at her for saying something honest and direct. Want my advice? Don't give up on your friendship, but notch down the dramatic conversation, and start discussing (or doing) things you both like.
The problem is that I am INFP and I tend to fantacise, idolize and over-interpret. To me it was flirty but what if it wasn鈥檛? I can't deal with rejection.

She didn't even bother to look at me or open that door that hid her.
This wasn't inviting me to sing a love serenade you know? I wasn't prepared to meet Anna vs Elsa situation, to sing to a closed door. Also my speech was longer than just "Goodbye, best luck." She didn't come out whatever the reason (she was already fully dressed so definitely not this). And I stood there like an idiot.

I wrote her first and that made her come back. And later she would join frequently into the discussion on a group chat.
Also that argument was on a work group chat. Well it might help you to get why I got so offended:
we were talking about killing animals for furs. She stated that 鈥濸eople are cancer鈥 and 鈥濰umans are bad by nature鈥 to which I didn鈥檛 agree and gave my arguments against that statement along with one that Generalization is a logical fallacy. Others did not agree with her either. She said that nothing will change her mind. I asked 鈥濪o you think WE are bad by nature too?鈥
She replied: 鈥濫veryone鈥. And that I took as an insult.

Later, When she explained that it was all playful I had a hard time to believe. I read it a couple of times and yes, it was playful. But none of others were playful, we were all dead serious. I took the biggest offence and I let her know about that clearly but the rest wasn鈥檛 keen on her opinion either. This was a big faux pas.
 

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Oh, boy. I've said that before: "People are like cancer on the Earth." Or another variation, "People are like cockroaches. They consume and don't give anything back."

Okay, for your enjoyment, I am now going to turn into your INTJ friend:

People use things. They eat, but no one eats them. When they die their bodies get burned or sealed in coffins and buried in concrete vaults where they fail to decompose into the ground and contribute to the life cycle. That's selfish. That's exceptionalism.
That's how people behave -- IN GENERAL. Generalization doesn't make it a fallacy. The logical argument is whether or not you think humans ought to contribute to the life cycle. There's our real debate.

(Not, "Are humans bad?" It's a shame the discussion took that direction.)

This is typical INTJ. We don't mean it personally. We reduce it to scientific fact, blurt out a social faux pas, and then get surprised when someone gets offended.

The problem is that I am INFP and I tend to fantacise, idolize and over-interpret. To me it was flirty but what if it wasn鈥檛? I can't deal with rejection... She didn't come out whatever the reason.. And I stood there like an idiot.
That was humiliating. This is where game-playing, flirting, not making intentions clear will lead.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Okay, for your enjoyment, I am now going to turn into your INTJ friend:
This is the enjoyment I've been truly waiting for. You did not turn into her though. If you were her you'd say "My friend put a hamster to a microvawe". (actual "scientific fact" she used and she is in her mid 20s). I really thought it was serious. Now that I know it was playful, then it may have some sense, if she wanted to be funny.
She is silent, when she talks/writes she is laconic and she uses very basic world resource. I don't think she has that great knowledge. And sometimes I had an impression that she is struggling to formulate a sentence that is longer than 5 words.

If you were debating with me in the form of what you presented above this would end differently and I'd be happy to have an intelligent discussion even if we wouldn't agree.
 

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Wow. You presented your friend as better than she was. That indicates you are a good friend. Too bad she didn't appreciate you enough.

Her humor is twisted. How can a person who debates the cruelty of killing animals for fur make a joke about putting a hamster in a microwave? That doesn't make sense. Does not compute.

Listen, I would be frustrated with a person like that. If you would enjoy debating concepts like the above one, you deserve better company that will contribute to your personal growth.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Wow. You presented your friend as better than she was.
I told you, INFPs tend to idealize ;)
But I was a little too harsh on her in my last post. I am not sure if 鈥瀐amster鈥 was a joke in that sense. I have no idea what was in her mind that day.

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Discussion Starter #12
How can a person who debates the cruelty of killing animals for fur make a joke about putting a hamster in a microwave? That doesn't make sense. Does not compute.
My thoughts exactly.
I remember I told her a story about a girl she knows and with whom I worked before. I鈥檒l call her AZ.
AZ wanted to buy a wallet. She was searching and searching and finally she got frustrated and told me 鈥濼here are no decent leather wallets. Only rag ones!鈥
I replied: 鈥濿ell, rag ones are at least cruelty free. No animal was hurt so I think it is a good choice.鈥
A replied to me 鈥濱 don鈥檛 care. Animals may be killed because I want a leather wallet!鈥
I actually did not reply to this. I was nice to A later but I already had my opinion.

So when I told this to INTJ I expected her to agree. INTJ answer was 鈥瀁es, AZ has a dark humor.鈥

That left me speachless. Not that I don鈥檛 use dark humor myself. Not that I don鈥檛 understand a decent dark humor. It is always balancing on a tight rope. But this was just too much.
 

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I think you're right. She has low self-esteem. The signs are there: She hasn't developed her own, independent life goals. She falls into "dark" humor. She doesn't recognize your benevolence.

What causes low self-esteem? Unlimited things -- from tiny injustices to real abuse. The one factor that saves people: resiliency. In the same situation, the resilient person will thrive, while the vulnerable person will crumble. We're not psychologists, so only she can decide to pull herself up and fix that.

Her friends are not good influences. Figure out why she is impressed with them. INTJs have Se for comfort, so maybe she is indulging her physical senses. (You go figure how.) Then replace that activity with something you can do better for her. It has to be a sensory high, like sailing a little boat or finding and preparing rare foods. Learning is like candy to an INTJ, and sensory highs are irresistible.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
I think you're right. She has low self-esteem. The signs are there: She hasn't developed her own, independent life goals. She falls into "dark" humor. She doesn't recognize your benevolence.

What causes low self-esteem? Unlimited things -- from tiny injustices to real abuse. The one factor that saves people: resiliency. In the same situation, the resilient person will thrive, while the vulnerable person will crumble. We're not psychologists, so only she can decide to pull herself up and fix that.

Her friends are not good influences. Figure out why she is impressed with them. INTJs have Se for comfort, so maybe she is indulging her physical senses. (You go figure how.) Then replace that activity with something you can do better for her. It has to be a sensory high, like sailing a little boat or finding and preparing rare foods. Education is like candy to an INTJ, and sensory highs are irresistible.
You are actually helping me a lot. Thank you very much. I have too many thoughts at the same time, and you help me to verify where there is a hit and where is the mis. So sorry I write so much but it is helpful for me too. I can read that once again after I get more info and then I start to see more.

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Op seems very judgey to me, and a bit too eager to find a belittling or even pathologizing interpretation for any deviation from their own standards and expectations for me. I'm getting the squicks from this thread by this point. Think both parties should leave each other severely alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Op seems very judgey to me, and a bit too eager to find a belittling or even pathologizing interpretation for any deviation from their own standards and expectations for me. I'm getting the squicks from this thread by this point. Think both parties should leave each other severely alone.
It may be. Maybe I am judgey. Or maybe I am overinterpretating. Notes taken.
 

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You say you want to help her. That's your business. I will say this: That is never a reason why I want to be friends with someone. For me, it's always for a mutual interest. Here's the question: Why would SHE want to be friends with YOU? Do you actually have any common interests?

Re: The Party Animals. Dangerous fun. Edgy fashion. Tough posing. All part of the scene. I did that once. I even resembled her physically. I outgrew it.

What bothers me is her VICTIM role with men.
She told me that she always attracts some creeps to stalk her or yell at her and she doesn't know why.
Really? Bullshit. She is presenting herself somehow. Men react to it. Then she goes berserk. And you almost called the police on some guy? No, no, no. She has a serious issue. She has to fix it.

Trouble, eclipselunaire. Are you sure you don't want to lilysocks advice and leave her alone?
 

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Really? Bullshit. She is presenting herself somehow. Men react to it. Then she goes berserk. And you almost called the police on some guy? No, no, no. She has a serious issue. She has to fix it.

disclaimer: i'm cranky. something about this whole thing really rubs me the wrong way.

 

okay, i'm going to get into it. how is this not the kind of emotional vapourware only recently being discussed in a different thread? to be clear, i've got no dog on either side of whatever is going on here; it seems like there's a lot of conjecturally-invented drama and silliness going on on both sides.

but i mention because i'm an intj. i think a has a crush on b, b may have a crush on a and they're just doing the typical stuff people do when they're infants and there's a crush in the air. possibly complicated by some degree of orientation ambivalence; i wouldn't don't know. but from my pov that is it. the op wants to find buddies to help her pathologize it, she's on her own as far as i'm concerned.

i don't think any more of the op than i think of the girl she's obsessing about. i don't want to be dragged in under association as some kind of 'advisor' to either of them. to have that happen would imply i actually take the op's side in this silly campaign of picking through her colleague's supposed psyche in search of purely conjectural grounds for blaming the poor girl's unrewardingness to the op on some kind of 'problem' she's got.


i don't doubt she is silly. i don't doubt there is some degree of posing and / or gamesiness / whatever going on here. but the op is hardly what i'd call an objective source; and probably that is what bothers me here.
 

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True that. I don't know their age, but this is common behavior for a certain demographic. It all seems so important at the time. Then later, you see how unimportant it was. And even later, you realize that it DID all matter -- just in a way you didn't expect it would. Because it was your life. (Dang.)

Does that make sense lilysocks? No harm in parsing out the harmless from the harmful for her. She got attracted to an exciting new friend. But the friend started hauling in baggage like stalker guys and police drama. Don't need that. Peace, out.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
the op is hardly what i'd call an objective source; and probably that is what bothers me here.
INTJs are one of most objective of all the types if not THE most. I read a lot about Mbti and it is clear that some types are not that objective especially driven on emotions. My type is one of the least objective ones.
Not that I want that nor I cope with that and that is why I am here.
This is not my personal problem, this is how my cognitive functions work. I am well awarie of that and I tried to explain that for you guys.

the op wants to find buddies to help her pathologize it
Then I鈥檇 ask my fellow INFPs rather than INTJ masterminds who are Logic.
And in fact I am glad to get an answer like yours too. I am silly, this situation is silly. But once again if it was normal and clear I wouldn鈥檛 be here.

I don't know their age, but this is common behavior for a certain demographic.
She is in her mid 20s and I am in my late 20s. We are all abit too old for 鈥瀋ertain demographics鈥 but nowadays I think the line really has moved up. We represent much younger emotional and physical traits than we are expected to have. We both agreed to that.

She got attracted to an exciting new friend.
Exciting and mysterious. Most people are like an open book to me and it is no fun. With her it may be dark but it is finally something thrilling.

Yes it is my life and it matters. Thank you for stating that.馃憦

I get you. Life is dangerous. It is a lethal deasease. I have my own luggage too.


I have nit made my decision.
No more disturbing analyzing from me. I got some points. Thank you all for contributing.
 
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