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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
EDIT : So I made more researches, and I think I'll settle on the 4. 9 seems like it's too "nice" for me lol. Even though it really resonates a lot with me and always will I suppose, it seems, from what I saw and read, like 9's inner worlds tend to be generally softer, more innocent and gentle, more archetypal and "happy", whereas 4's are more chaotic, dark and agressive and, of course, personal. From what I understood 9s genuinely care more about others than themselves and truly love people, but 4s actually mostly care about themselves. So I guess I'm a 4. I'm like torn between two different parts. But wings and subtypes probably play a part in the fact I relate so much to 9 and less to the typical 4. Maybe my MBTI also, even though I don't know it. I'll leave the post below, if anyone's trying to figure out their type between 4 and 9, that might help them alongside the many other useful 4 vs 9 posts around there. Bye ~

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Hello and thank you for taking on your time to read and help me, I really appreciate it. Actually, I already filled up another alternative questionnaire with a lot of details and honesty, but then I felt too anxious and shameful about posting it because I was really vulnerable and shared a lot of things so I decided to make another one, more concise and less personal. My main issue is that I can't figure out if I'm 4, 6 or 9. I believe my boyfriend is a 6. I'm almost sure of it, I'd say 80%. I tried figuring out my type using triads and stances, core motivations/fears and all, but I'm still stuck. I think I managed reducing the possibilities after researches and introspection because I could basically relate and see myself in absolutely each of the numbers, in some way or another – mostly their unhealthy states -. I might be another than 4/6/9, it's just the numbers to which I think I consciously relate the MOST.

I definitely relate to that gut triad issue of aggression/repression and desire for autonomy. Anger is always there, lurking. I relate to the 9's desire for peace. I've always wanted to feel at peace. Even as a kid I remember wondering if some day I'll be finally able to just feel happy, contented, sane, healthy and at peace inside and out. Just at peace with others, at peace with myself, at peace with my life, at peace with the world, at peace with God. Just... you know. Total absolute unwavering peace. Knowing that I am who I have to be, did what I had to do and just be at peace with everything.

But I also highly relate to the feeling triad of shame/envy and all that, feeling often like I'm grieving, missing, lacking, defective. Guilt, envy and shame are bascially the basis of my life. Defective was my word when I was between 13-21 years old – I'm 25 now -. I would say that as a teenager, I really, really acted like the most unhealthy 4, with lots of self-hate, rage, jealousy, silent eccentricities – I would look mostly normal outside but inside it was a really disturbed and disturbing, weird and wrong world -, dissatisfaction, desire for individuality, living in my own crazy sick fantasy to the point of mythomania, but heavily mixed with a unhealthy 9 for the apathetic/catatonic state, mutism, spiritual sloth, indolence, detachement, depersonalization, avoidance, etc. And I've read that a lot of teenagers could act and feel like a total 4 though they're not.

I also found a website : Enneagram System that I found really detailed and interesting, and I read the 4, 6 and 9 full descriptions. And I related so much to 9, like almost to everything – except the healthy states because I was never healthy in any way -. But the way I feel inside is that I'm way more temperamental, aggressive, pessimistic, worried, individualistic than the average 9. I might not express it outwardly to anyone. But I am. But still, I could really relate to all of this on a deep level, I guess.

Then I also related a lot to 4, it was just not as strong as the 9, not as... enlightening? It sounds close to me because I really experienced the 4 during adolescence as I said so obviously I still really feel like it's a part of me, and it still is, but more like... it's not really the truth ? Like it's just the surface. There still are some traits and motivations comparing to the 9 where I don't really recognize myself... I might just be totally oblivious to it, though. I'm oblivious to a lot of things that concern me, though I'm highly aware of things concerning others. But anyway.

I didn't really relate to 6 either. I mean I mostly related to the constantly anxious, indecisive, worried, pessimistic state. But that could be that I'm a 9 disintegrated to 6, or that I just mimick a lot of my boyfriend behavior – because I do that a lot, basically when I'm with other people I mirror them, mimick them, their expressions, thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and adapt myself to them without always wanting to -. It can even be fictional characters. I am highly impressionable despite my strong desire for individuality and my sense of identity and self-awareness have been and are constantly changing because of that. The basic motivations did not really resonated with that much either, not like the 9 > 4.

BUT then I read the part of the compatibility between each number, and I definitely related to the 6/4 compatibility report considering my boyfriend and I relationship. Also to the 9/6! But a bit less. More superficially. The way I always try to become better and to understand myself and improve things, and I really want my boyfriend to do the same so we can be on the same wave and progress together, and this angers me, worries and frustrates me so much that he doesn't look into his own self the way I'm trying to do myself because I'm afraid it might prevent him, us – and me, because I mostly think about me most of the time – from growing and doing what we have to do, from our purpose. I just get obsessed with it from time to time after a period of stress, and when I do I can't stop thinking and worrying about it. But then at some point I just let it go/forget about it/not care anymore/silently wish that everything will turn out ok without doing anything and blind myself to reality because reality is too hard and tiring and chaotic. I get obsessed with some other things from time to time actually. But then it goes away and I'm left feeling empty and not knowing what is true and what is not, what I want and what I don't, who I am and who I'm not.

My main issue is also that when I look inside, I just see dark fumes and hear distant and unintelligable voices. I feel like I'm half-awake, you know, when a faint light starts to dissipate darkness, but then you see that everything is misty, vague, fragmented and monochrome with some bits of colors here and there and you can't really put a word on it or understand it entirely and you're just left there in this state where you know you're awake but you also know you're not and everything you hear, feel and think is numbed and distant, not memorable. It's like living in a circle, each time the circle repeats itself you know you've lived it before but you forget quickly again and again and each time you get conscious of it and really want to get of the cycle but it just seems impossible and too much work for you and others and anyway you forgot about it again and... I don't know if I'm making any sense :-D.

Most of my life I've lived through instinct and feelings. I never ever really logically thought, looked at myself, inside, and questionned myself truthfully and deeply, before meeting my highly idealistic and principled boyfriend – should I say it was a really painful, violent and difficult experience for both of us because it confronted us to a lot of things in ourselves and the other that we didn't want to see?- and then it was like this HUGE slap from reality for me. And then I fell and had a hard time getting up. I'm still mostly on the ground but now I'm a bit more self-aware and active in my life. Sadly I am always disconnected from other and from myself. I know physical reality is real and that I'm real, but sometimes I'm not sure I really exist. Honestly I don't feel like I can make any impact on the word, beside a negative impact through all of the bad things and choices I made throughout my life and still do now...

Still from time to time I get this urge, this obsession to go deep and finally understand and see and hear and grasp this fog in order to be able to be alive and celebrate my purpose and do things with meaning. But at the same time, I always want peace and tranquility and I don't like diving into my pain, past and sufffering and mistakes and vulnerabilites - I hate being vulnerable and showing my difficult emotions, I just hate it, which is one the the reasons I never actually followed a therapy - so in the end even though I try to go deep sometimes it remains on the surface eventually. Anyway, I'll try to answer the questions. Sorry for this really long intro... I don't know how I feel or act but when I start writing about myself it can just go on like a stream of consciousness. Though I'd doubt my own accuracy. I don't know how this is going to turn out, plus english is not my language so this might get messy. Sorry, and thanks again !

Main Questions

1. What drives you in life? What do you look for? / 2. What do you hope to accomplish in your life?


I always have believed in a ''Supreme Intelligence'' even as a kid so I always thought I had something to do, that there was ALWAYS meaning in everything and in everyone. Basically today my life is trying to figure out what is expected of me, what I can do to redeem myself from my past and mistakes, to change, to understand myself/know who I am for sure, and feel at peace with myself and others, to help others do and have the same, to put out some good in the world, to leave something useful but also inspirational maybe. Something that could last a bit. Not something purely material. I would like to become a webcomic author but I'm bad at drawing – I'm learning but I'm an impatient person – and I know I won't be able to live from that so I should do something else but well...

3. What do you hope to avoid doing or being? What values are important to you?

I hope I can avoid totally wasting the rest of my life. I hope I can avoid building things that will crumble because of my mistakes or lack of involvment. I hope I can stop damaging others around me and start healing instead. I hope I can get over my fear, anger, shame, guilt, sadness, phobias and other issues I have to become a mentally and physically healthy and balanced inspiring woman before I'm even more tired and regretful. I hope I can actually do something good and useful for others, even better if I can write and draw to do it because this is something I think I really love – and have always loved -. Important values for me I would say are forgiveness, compassion, honesty, harmony, responsability, meaning, imagination...

4. What are your biggest fears (not including phobias)? Why?

I fear suffering, any kind of suffering, my own and others'. I fear death, my own and others'. I fear growing old, seeing my loved ones grow old. I fear looking back and realizing I've never lived correctly, never was a good person, never achieved my purpose and totally wasted my life and others'. I fear never being an inspiration to others, instead being only an exemple of what is not to be done. I fear losing my mind and memories and physical abilities, seeing others lose it. I fear the future that could turn so bad. I fear making wrong choices or not making choices and realizing how it destroyed things. I'm sorry I'm going to stop there.

5. How do you want others to see you? How do you see yourself?

I really don't know... Sorry. Just a normal, nice, creative and inspiring person, I guess. Someone that makes you recognize your issues and makes you want to correct them. Someone who makes you feel like you have a right to live even though you have these issues on which you need to work. Someone who helps you forgive yourself and others and who makes you feel like you can actually achieve something that can serve a higher purpose regardless of what you are and what you believe in. Someone who can help people mend themselves and their relationships and work on themselves. Someone who can help to resolve internal and external conflicts the best way possible and promote growth and healing, because I know so much what it is to feel conflicted. Basically someone I need too.

How I see myself... I don't lol. From what close people have told me and what I understood about myself, what I see is a really bad, seflish, self-centered, agressive and lost person at the core with no real substance or identity and who really needs to overcome their ego and sense of self to actually be free and happy and help others. I always complain internally and feel bad, when I feel bad I try to avoid the problem and/or create another one to distance myself so I feel even more bad... Hmm... I'm stubborn. Unhelpful. I can only focus on me. I want to focus on others but I focus on me. I think the only times I really focus on others is when they disturb my peace in some way or another, otherwise I just live in my bubble. I'm forgetful. I often forget mistakes I've made or things I shouldn't say or do and therefore make them again. For exemple after a conflict we can decide on something, but most of the time I'll go back to my old ways without even realizing it. Or realizing it but not caring about it. Plus I am the laziest person, seriously, I am LAZY. It's not even procrastination it's just plain gross laziness. I never feel like doing anything. I'm not creative. I have no energy. No willpower. Normal daily life, with chores and all that, drain me to the bone, having a normal job makes me irascible and so tired and depressed, I hate having responsabilities put on me because I know I can't honor them, I don't like my tranquility to be disturbed, and at the same time something in me is always there to poke at me, to push me towards my problems but most of the time I feel like I'm just in denial of many things because if I was not it would hurt so much to see this chaos I'm in and it is so much work, and when I think about it I get a hard time breathing so I try to stop. Thinking, not breathing. Sometimes I feel really compelled to do things and sometimes I actually do things but this drive goes away quickly.

6. What makes you feel your best? What makes you feel your worst?

I don't know... When others compliment me or pay attention to me, or like me. When I get good surprises. When I get an answer to a question I had. When I have fun with people I love, and just stop thinking about anything and just live in the moment. When I'm in nature, go to new places – not alone, I don't like it as much usually -. When I was really hungry or tired and can finally eat something I love or go to bed :-D. When I feel like what I do is meaningful. When I have shared interests and point of view with someone – awesome but rare. When I watch my cat sleep. When I achieve something, even small, when I know I made a right thing or choice ? Doesn't happen often since I don't do anything lol. Otherwise I love investing myself in stories or tv shows. I like it when I find a new song or tv show I love. I love singing, writing, drawing. It takes me out of my own mind and feelings. I like researching things, but not too much into details and when I get obsessed like that I hate it.

Worst I would say everything else. Having demands made on me, having to act or choose something, except if it's for something I like, it's less painful and I know that in the end I'll be happy to get something I want. Feeling guilt, shame, anger, sadness, anxiety. Having to express embarrasing feelings, being vulnerable, voicing these feeling. Being sick, hungry, tired. Being humiliated. Being overlooked. Conflict. Sudden changes not decided by me. Plan something that I look forward to and something happens and messes up with the plan. Making mistakes that impact others... So many other things.

7. Describe how you experience each of: a) anger; b) shame; c) anxiety.

a.) anger

I feel anger when people don't listen to others or me, when they ignore others or me, when they mock, critizice others or me, when they boss others or me around, when they scream or insult others or me, when they think they're right when you know they're not or they're being contemptuous about it... Being overlooked... Being scolded. Unconstructive criticism or constructive criticism that does not take at all the other's feelings into consideration... Thinking about what makes me angry :-D. Anger to me feel like... it feels like my gut chest throat and head are going to explode and at the same it's like it's becoming so alive my body can't take this amount of energy, and my arms and legs are like they could get a life of their own and break everything and everyone. I can become hysterical and scream or say horrible things. I shake like crazy. Then after I'm like dead and shameful and tired and wanting to die and guilty. Like a big green guy who turns back to a small naked man.

b.) shame
Same things as anger. Anger makes me feel shame. Being wrong and criticised. Being scolded. Remembering my past. Thinking about my interactions with others. When I act and present myself to the world. Thinking about it gives me shivers of shame and uneasiness. Getting angry. Showing emotions that are not happiness. Saying I don't like something when it's something I share with another person – for exemple if I watch a movie with someone and I don't really like the movie, I will wait to know if the other person like it. If they do, I will be too shameful to say I don't really like it. And if someone else were with us and would say that the movie was bad, I would feel so bad for the one who liked the movie so I might not say anything either to make him feel better. As if he was responsable for the fact that the movie was bad lol. But if no one likes it then I will happily share that I don't either. Unless it's really violating my values, I guess. I know that if I like something and someone I love doesn't, I feel realy really sad, angry ashamed and misunderstood. Which is why I'm really secretive and hate sharing what I love because I'm afraid people won't like it as well and think I'm stupid or weird or bad for liking what I like, that they will identify me with what I love - even if I like normal things, like a tv show, but I always think there's no way others could like it like I do or understand it like I do because I'm too weird and it would be just too complicated to explain it to them and would be too painful to feel rejected and humiliated and I would feel too vulnerable and exposed that they know what I like and they find it stupid sooooo... I just don't talk about it. Shame makes me want to disappear.

c.) anxiety
Existing :-D. Basically absolutely everything gives me anxiety, I am never at peace. I always feel anxiety, even while sleeping which is why I sometimes wake up screaming or gasping lol.

8. Describe how you respond to each of:

All these questions are so hard... Visualizing and knowing how I feel and react in certain situations that do not happen right now is really really difficult, especially as I almost never really react the same way and it depends on where I am, with whom, in what specific situation, in what mind state... But I'll try to give you a general picture.

a.) stress
I withdraw, I want to flee, disappear, die, I either get hyper critical of myself and others and perfectionist, really pessimistic, fatalistic, depressed, passive-agressive or really outright aggressive, or totally inert, apathetic, dead inside, sometimes everything combined at different time and degree... I find excuses not to deal with things that would take me out of my comfort zone, even very important things. And sometimes when something bad happens I just feel like I don't even care ? Like I even forget about it. I don't feel anything. Then when I try to think about it because I feel so guilty for forgetting things like that, I stop thinking about it again because it hurts and process it again like it's just an information and I have no reaction... At least at the moment when it's happening, I really have no reaction. I don't really know how to explain. I didn't even cry when my grandmother died when I was like 10 or 11. Everyone was desperate and it made me feel so bad but I just didn't feel anything... I was just so out of it and even though I understood why others were desperate, I couldn't understand why I wasn't. And this kind of situation happened often when I was young. I just don't involve myself emotionnally. I can be so insensitive. I avoid thinking about the past because it hurts – too many bad memories and also nostalgia -. I avoid thinking about the future because it makes me anxious – too many possiblities of things going down -. But since a part of me wants to think that everything will be ok, thinking about the future is ''easier'' than the past. At least I can still fantasize about a better future. Past won't change.

b.) negative unexpected change
Same as stress. But I think I noticed I might also get more optimistic if someone else is involved in the change with me I would want to reassure them like ''oh it's not that bad don't worry, it's life, we'll get through it'' things like that.

c.) conflict
Excalty same as stress. It makes me feel so bad about myself, so tired and sad and angry. But what can also happen if I'm directly concerned, like if we are actually right now in a conflict and argument, I might become Hulk as I said. Or again become totally apathetic not feeling a single thing. Or cry like crazy. Most of the times it's all three one after the other. If it's more of a silent long-lasting conflict, it will depend on who is the person. Mostly I will be apathetic, withdrawn, but I might also suddenly say something mean or provocative at the person to provoke something in oder to stop feeling this tension that is as painful as the conflict itself.

9. Describe your orientation to: a) authority; b) power. How do you respond to these?

Depends what kind of authority and how they're exercing their authority, I guess. At home or in private setting I really don't like being bossed around. I like when I'm told what to do if I propose my help or if someone ask my help. But I don't like commanding attitudes - though I might actually adopt such a behavior myself if I'm annoyed with someone -. Like 'do this, do that''. This makes me angry and I become resentful and I really hate that feeling. At work I don't really care... ? I guess. By the way my boyfriend used to be so often pissed off because of how I can be so unresponsive and detached sometimes, or when I say things like « whatever you want, I don't know, you choose, if it's ok with you it's ok with me, I don't care, etc » because I used to be like that all the time. First, because I often really do not know or don't care, and second because when I do I'm often afraid to tell because I'm afraid to make others angry or that they'll judge me or that my decision is wrong or things like that. Now I'm forcing myself to be more assertive but it makes me feel guilty. And since I have a lot of anger inside, I can quickly come off as agressive and domineering, don't know how to say or express things. Or on the contrary I'll sometimes assert myself for no reason, feeling a bit like a rebellious teen sometimes. As if I NEED to show that I know what I want and that I respect myself and want them to respect me when I really don't care that much most of the time. I still only do it in comfortable settings but it feels really awkward. I'm so afraid of conflicts and I never really have had authority problem until now that I have to face it, because I would just either go with the flow, or pretend to do something when I had to but not do it or do it badly, or avoid it totally, or just not care. It's not like I've always felt the urge to rebel against authority or conform totally or something, when I was younger. I just wanted to not be bothered. If anything, I don't want to attract attention, I want to be invisible, not make trouble. But I want to have a positive impact at the same time :-D. If this authority in charge is absurd, harmful or totally against ethical logic, or asking me to do things I REALLY would not want to do, well I might either get passive-agressive by not doing it, or doing it my way, or just leaving I guess. But I wouldn't put me in power over other people. I think I could get tyrannical. Or I think everything would crumble because I'm so lazy. Or I would be paralyzed by responsabilites.

10. What is your overall outlook on life and humanity?

I would say pessimisitic and fatalistic, but idealistic and hopeful at the same time ? Like in the present, I will think that everything and everyone is terrible, that we're all going down, making wrong choices and drowning in misundertandings and misusings of things and of our potential, but still... there's some incredibly good things, and there's some use even in bad things. And maybe, in the future, things will get better somehow ? When terrible things happen I always hope that it can help us grow and reshape ourselves, instead of thinking about the negative aspects. But I admit I'm getting more disillusioned and insensitive as I age. Also something I noticed is, when someone acts pessimistic I'll want to be optimistic so that they feel better, have a happier, lighter and healthier point of view. It would make me feel better. But when someone is too optimistic or idealistic I might want to act pessimistic so that they don't get their hopes too high and get disappointed by things...


Optional Questions

11. Discuss an event that has impacted your life significantly; more importantly, how you responded to it.

12. Comment on your relationship with trust.

How could I explain... Like, I'm meeting someone new. When I'm meeting someone new I'm stressed and when I'm stressed I can get paranoid. Therefore I'm sure I will not trust this person and will not get attached to this person. And I just know people are going to say bad things behing me, I know that they just won't really like me anyway and that I'll always en up feeling as disconnected from everyone and everything as I have always felt so I should just look nice and happy and remain distant... BUT. If this person starts talking nicely to me, and we have good time together or we talk well, and stuff like that, I'm going to forget about all the mistrust and loneliness and I'm going to like them a lot and act more and more in a way that I think will make them like me and will maintain peace and harmony. If something happens, like if we get into a conflict – shivers - or I hear they don't really like me and are just pretending, I will withdraw and get depressed a lot. But if this person keeps being nice to me even though it's a facade, I will still forgive and forget and keep being nice as well, still thinking sometimes that maybe they like me or will like me someday or, well, at least it's peaceful, you know. But I might still feel a bit bad inside that they're hyprocritical.

13. List some of the traits you: a) like; b) dislike most about yourself.

14. What do you see or notice in others that most people don't?

15. If a stranger insults you, how do you respond/feel? What if they compliment you?


16. What's something you are:

a.) thankful you have


God and my boyfriend. My cat and our appartment. My family. My situation (I'm actually studying from home). Internet. A fridge :-D. Basically everything I have I'm thankful for it. I'm far too lucky

b.) wish you could have? Why?

I've always been a dissatisfied person and sometimes I feel like having something else could help me feel better, though I know it's not really true. I wish we could have more money so we could perhaps travel or just be even more comfortable. I would not be afraid of lacking ressources then. I would love to go live beside the ocean in a cute house or something peaceful close to nature. I would love to also have a ferret. I would just love being around more animals in general actually. If we didn't have my cat it would be so empty. Poor her, she would freak out if we brought another pet, but she'd get used to it eventually. She's like me, terrified of change but once the change has happened, realizing we're finally pretty much adaptable and move on quickly. I also wish I could be prettier to feel less different and less shameful. I used to be obsessed with it, my body has been such of huge part of my suffering during adolescence, and I wanted to get plastic surgery, but I'm pretty much over it, now. I'm not 100% ok with how I am physically, but I realize there's not so much I could do anyway. I try to focus on other things instead on dwelling on these things.

There you go, I'm finally done. I'm sorry I wrote such a LONG thing. I hope it won't be too much for those who will read it but I felt like I needed to say those things... I thank in advance anyone willing to help, and even those not willing, it's ok :-D. Have a nice day/evening/night.
 
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