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Some people know how much I hate the stereotype of INFJ. And how I think it's because of how many INFJs are Type 4.

I am going to ask you INFJs something. I am asking everyone who wants to read this something.

and this is based off my assumption that basically like all of you are type 4s

INFJ 4s. And every other type (I will get to you later) as well. Any type 4s really but mainly addressing my INFJ brethren - because most of you INFJs were inherently 4s (some were inherently 8s or 1s) - Why are you separating yourself from the world?

You know there is a reason why you go through the SP wannabe phase.

It is because the world wants you to embrace yourself in the world. The world wants you to be one with it, it wants you to understand it.

And you either reject or accept the world.

You reject the world and you separate yourself from it. You are forever lost with the world unless you attempt once again to be one with the world. But none is so easiest as when you were given a push into the SP wannabe phase.

Or, you accept the world and become one with it.

The thing is, you fear that you will lose your "uniqueness" by immersing in the world.
Some of you who immerse yourselves in the world however lose yourselves among it, becoming completely one with it. You lose your "uniqueness" when doing so.

I want you all to think about this.

I know that the first reaction to this will be "what is he talking about?" and that this will be approached with either apparent or very very underlying skepticism. Whatever you think it will be, in some way, against my own approach.

If you do not fully believe me right off the bat - if you do not fully understand what I am talking about - you must understand why you do not understand. You must understand what I am talking about.

Once you have a base understand of what I'm talking about, you need to once again immerse yourselves in the world. You do this already; you try to understand people for what they are.

This is your gift. The gift of intuition.

However your greatest struggle is becoming one with the world. I want you to look at the difference between the two sensory "opinions" of the world that most of you have:
1. the world is "corrupt," and I cannot be one of them, one of the others
2. the world is beautiful (e.g. nature), it is too beautiful for me to be one of them.

This is where your inherent sense of separation comes from. you have placed yourself in between these two sense of beings and have said that you are too good for humankind but that you cannot be as good as nature, not even as good as a leaf falling from a tree (yet somehow you are amazed by this???).

thus you hole yourself up and never understand why you cannot be one with either of them.

Trust me when I say that you are still able to be one with the world without losing your sense of "identity."

~As for you Type 1s. The world is not perfect and instead of accepting it WHILE REJECTING IT become one with it. Let go of your perfection. Type 3s don't care about doing whatever they're doing for success as long as it gets done. You might sacrifice your super awesome morals for doing successful things but perhaps your idea of perfection isn't perfect.

~This goes for you Type 2s as well. Do not impose your "perfectionism" of "helping" until you embrace yourself with the world and accept you can't help everyone. Try doing something for yourself for once. Be like your buddy neighbor 3s over there, it's not bad or "wrong."

~For you Type 3s, you're on track. But instead of continually moving try to find some sense of peace where you can relax without moving. Type 9s have got the idea there. Don't settle with them though settle like them.

~For you Type 4s, I've already explained what you need to do. In order to better understand I would go look at Type 5s and then afterwards Type 8s.

~For you Type 5s, you're on track. You have understood quite a bit but are continually seeking to understand. It is time to stop understanding from a distance and immerse yourself again with the world. There is nothing to fear about it except the actual feeling of fear[/u]. It's time to truly empathize with your fellow Type 6s and feel the actual feeling of fear. You understand why you fear from a distance but you do not understand why you fear when you actually feel fear.

~For you Type 6s, you're in the correct spot to understand. But do not think that you have fully understood yet, because you don't. You need to understand where you come from. Take a look at Type 7s. they are your key to understanding.

~For you Type 7s, you're closer to understanding than 6s, but you need a sense of structure. Try going to your Type 1 buddies and seeing how they structure themselves. From there you'll want to move like a Type 3 but make sure you learn to slow down like a Type 9 after a while.

~Type 8s, it's not you against the world. Stop it, you're not getting anywhere even if you feel like you're plowing through everything. Try understanding why you think you are against the world like your buddy Type 5s.

~For you Type 9s, it's great that you're all peaceful and shit but you aren't moving anywhere. Time for you to get going like a 3 and face that underlying feeling of fear you have.


That is all
 

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Some people know how much I hate the stereotype of INFJ. And how I think it's because of how many INFJs are Type 4.

I am going to ask you INFJs something. I am asking everyone who wants to read this something.

and this is based off my assumption that basically like all of you are type 4s

INFJ 4s. And every other type (I will get to you later) as well. Any type 4s really but mainly addressing my INFJ brethren - because most of you INFJs were inherently 4s (some were inherently 8s or 1s) - Why are you separating yourself from the world?

You know there is a reason why you go through the SP wannabe phase.

It is because the world wants you to embrace yourself in the world. The world wants you to be one with it, it wants you to understand it.

And you either reject or accept the world.

You reject the world and you separate yourself from it. You are forever lost with the world unless you attempt once again to be one with the world. But none is so easiest as when you were given a push into the SP wannabe phase.

Or, you accept the world and become one with it.

The thing is, you fear that you will lose your "uniqueness" by immersing in the world.
Some of you who immerse yourselves in the world however lose yourselves among it, becoming completely one with it. You lose your "uniqueness" when doing so.

I want you all to think about this.

I know that the first reaction to this will be "what is he talking about?" and that this will be approached with either apparent or very very underlying skepticism. Whatever you think it will be, in some way, against my own approach.

If you do not fully believe me right off the bat - if you do not fully understand what I am talking about - you must understand why you do not understand. You must understand what I am talking about.

Once you have a base understand of what I'm talking about, you need to once again immerse yourselves in the world. You do this already; you try to understand people for what they are.

This is your gift. The gift of intuition.

However your greatest struggle is becoming one with the world. I want you to look at the difference between the two sensory "opinions" of the world that most of you have:
1. the world is "corrupt," and I cannot be one of them, one of the others
2. the world is beautiful (e.g. nature), it is too beautiful for me to be one of them.

This is where your inherent sense of separation comes from. you have placed yourself in between these two sense of beings and have said that you are too good for humankind but that you cannot be as good as nature, not even as good as a leaf falling from a tree (yet somehow you are amazed by this???).

thus you hole yourself up and never understand why you cannot be one with either of them.

Trust me when I say that you are still able to be one with the world without losing your sense of "identity."

~As for you Type 1s. The world is not perfect and instead of accepting it WHILE REJECTING IT become one with it. Let go of your perfection. Type 3s don't care about doing whatever they're doing for success as long as it gets done. You might sacrifice your super awesome morals for doing successful things but perhaps your idea of perfection isn't perfect.

~This goes for you Type 2s as well. Do not impose your "perfectionism" of "helping" until you embrace yourself with the world and accept you can't help everyone. Try doing something for yourself for once. Be like your buddy neighbor 3s over there, it's not bad or "wrong."

l

U gotta agree u cannot change who you are. The need to help others ( in my case) it's in my blood. It makes me happy. Sometimes even if they don't deserve it ( and I know that ). But i do take a break once in a while and do something only for myself... :p
 
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Discussion Starter #3
U gotta agree u cannot change who you are. The need to help others ( in my case) it's in my blood. It makes me happy. Sometimes even if they don't deserve it ( and I know that ). But i do take a break once in a while and do something only for myself... :p
Of course you can't change yourself for who you are, but you are saying that you cannot change your personality for what it is. you are saying that your personality is composed of one dimension, that it cannot be changed.

It's only natural to want to help others...its in your blood...of course...but the way you word it, you are unconsciously denying that you do not share aspects of other people, that, for example you do not help other people. This is seen when you say "sometimes they don't deserve it" and that "you do something only for yourself."

That is the key to understanding yourself. Follow that. Do something for yourself and only for yourself you will understand yourself more.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I enjoy who I am.

I also like and respect myself... so I don't get the whole idea of having to change myself to please... who? you?
I don't care if you want to change yourself to please me or not because the goal is not to please me. You can do what you want. That's your prerogative, I'm just giving you my own observations and trying to help you understand that. If you don't want to believe me, again...it's your prerogative...I will not force this on you, because it would be an essential mistake

What I am trying to say is that we, on a very, very deep subconscious level, don't enjoy who we are and thus seek ways to alleviate ourselves of this. The reason we do not enjoy who we are is because we do not understand ourselves. You say you "enjoy yourself for who you are" but do you really?

Think about the difference of how you feel when you say "I have understood this as it is a definition." Definition loses intuition's momentum. We are fueled by intuition once more. Intuition is understanding and I am trying to propose ways to help understand yourselves, trying to give you ways to fuel intuition on a constant basis.
 

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What I am trying to say is that we, on a very, very deep subconscious level, don't enjoy who we are and thus seek ways to alleviate ourselves of this. The reason we do not enjoy who we are is because we do not understand ourselves. You say you "enjoy yourself for who you are" but do you really?
... I am trying to propose ways to help understand yourselves, trying to give you ways to fuel intuition on a constant basis.
Why should you doubt what I say is true for me? I feel that you must be projecting here. While there are surely a lot of people in this world who don't like who they are, there are plenty who are at peace with themselves, and enjoy themselves. That's not to say there aren't things one might wish to improve, but that is a far cry from changing one's essential nature.

I also don't see the benefit to telling someone to simply change, even if they wanted to. It doesn't work like that.

For example, you wrote:

'~This goes for you Type 2s as well. Do not impose your "perfectionism" of "helping" until you embrace yourself with the world and accept you can't help everyone. Try doing something for yourself for once. Be like your buddy neighbor 3s over there, it's not bad or "wrong."'

Um... do you honestly think an INFJ type 2 hasn't heard this a BILLION times already? Trust me... we have. Telling us to "be like that person over there" is just - presumptuous, ineffective, and unnecessary.

There is no insight offered here. I just don't get it. The whole post comes across as very bossy, and closed minded, and "my reality is the best reality and let me tell you how to think". I actually don't get how you're INFJ, after reading this. I just don't get it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Why should you doubt what I say is true for me? I feel that you must be projecting here. While there are surely a lot of people in this world who don't like who they are, there are plenty who are at peace with themselves, and enjoy themselves. That's not to say there aren't things one might wish to improve, but that is a far cry from changing one's essential nature.

I also don't see the benefit to telling someone to simply change, even if they wanted to. It doesn't work like that.

For example, you wrote:

'~This goes for you Type 2s as well. Do not impose your "perfectionism" of "helping" until you embrace yourself with the world and accept you can't help everyone. Try doing something for yourself for once. Be like your buddy neighbor 3s over there, it's not bad or "wrong."'

Um... do you honestly think an INFJ type 2 hasn't heard this a BILLION times already? Trust me... we have. Telling us to "be like that person over there" is just - presumptuous, ineffective, and unnecessary.

There is no insight offered here. I just don't get it. The whole post comes across as very bossy, and closed minded, and "my reality is the best reality and let me tell you how to think". I actually don't get how you're INFJ, after reading this. I just don't get it.
Here is the recent insight I have gotten. And reading over this last post, I finally am understanding now.

There is something I have recently discovered in the depths of my mind. It is called "The Law of Essence." It is not currently fleshed out but will be.

The Law of Essence postulates that we, as humans, are composed of the same material, which is essence. The essence is traced back to the very base essence, which is "no essence." Nothingness. As we progress through life, we attempt to understand what "essence" (or "nothingness") is. At one point or another, we come to accept that this essence either has a "primal" structure or that it has a "harmonious" structure, or nothingness.

When I wrote this, I had learned that essence had a primal structure. The primal structure is perfect. And yes, you are right. I am projecting this. Because I wanted people to know of the perfect and primal structure I had discovered. And I knew how to get there.

But right before I pulled up this post again, I discovered that nothingness was a structure. And that we could accept that structure.

What follows, as we understand it today from the current essence from which we are derived, is what we know today as life and death. Life is choosing to structure oneself into more essence. Death is choosing to structure oneself into harmonious essence, or "nothingness."

There are many more workings to understand what composes the essence from which we choose to structure ourselves into, in the next dimension. I'm currently writing the law right now which will include all details of the functions and why the universe is the way it is.

When I say the world will end in understanding this law, it will. It just won't explode or anything. It will slowly drift away, because I have understood the essence for what it is.

I'm sorry about this. I just wanted to share what I discovered, because learning about the essence excited me. But...I realized how everything is interconnected.

Oh, and here you go @Vivid Melody and @emerald sea. Here's what I've been developing lately.
 

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Bravo Lost in Oblivion. I've always believed it is important to find balance in life. Being more outgoing and understanding this world and my connection to it have been one of my greatest goals. This essence you are speaking of, if you and i are thnking of the same thing, i just call it energy. In fact i could interchange every time you say essence with energy and i'd still make sence to me! We are all Energy, we are all composed of materials that come from the stars which is just refined energy. Everything is energy! One of Einstein's great equations comes to mind. Energy=mc2
Manipulating this energy inside and outside of my body has become a life long passion of mine
 

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We are speaking of something which is simply ineffable. It must be experienced first hand to be understood, but to experience it one must take a leap of faith. Yet how can one take a leap of faith to understand this experience when one has no real understanding of it in the first place? You have a tough job on your hands :) it is almost like explaining color to someone who cannot see. One of the ways i've found of showing this to someone is fill them with wonder of the universe and the possibilities and give them a little taste of it. Showing someone another aspect to appreciate the universe well that's always something that made me feel great :) I look forword to more posts on this topic by you, i am always very curious on others interpretations of this.
 

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I don't think "separation" is the right word. Fours want to be different...but the very definition of difference requires it to be in contrast with something else. You can't have a shadow without a light.
 

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I don't think "separation" is the right word. Fours want to be different...but the very definition of difference requires it to be in contrast with something else. You can't have a shadow without a light.
Didn't I contrast that already? 4s have a separation with the essence between those of this world and that of this world. It is that they feel right in between those two essences.

My personal observation is that 4s feel stuck between shadow and light. They are what is creating the shadow of the light.
 

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Just thought of sharing the path of development of each type (more in the link about each type)

Type 1:

Path of development:

Understand that correctness and rightness are not part of natural order
Compassion for the self
Recognize and minimize the internal critical voice
Allow time to relax, play and accept yourself as you are

Ultimate task: Reclaiming the sense of perfection in all things and everyone, which includes accepting differences, mistakes, natural desires and the “dark side.”
Type2:

Pay attention to personal needs and wants
Learn to receive
Nurture a separate self
Develop independence and autonomy

Ultimate task: Realizing that love is not dependent on being needed, and developing a sense of humility that goes with not knowing what to give and being in need yourself.
Type 3:

Moderate pace
Welcome feelings
Understand failure is not disaster
Realize that love is for you, not for what you accomplish

Ultimate task: Reclaiming the truth that love comes to you because of who you are, not because of what you do.
Type 4:

Focus on what is positive in the present
Be consistent in action despite fluctuating and intense feelings
Recognize that feelings are not the only reality
Appreciate the ordinary

Ultimate task: Reclaiming wholeness in the present moment by appreciating what is here and now, and accepting yourself as you are without needing to be special and unique.
Type 5:

Experience feelings in the moment
Stay connected rather than withdrawing
Allow more people into protective circle
Reveal personal matters, express self
Engage in physical activity

Ultimate task: Reconnecting to the energy of life force and heart-felt feelings, realizing that ample energy and resources are available.
Type 6:

Accept insecurity as part of life
Develop inner faith in self, others and the world
Recognize that both flight and fight are reactions to fear
Observe fear and calm it
Move ahead in spite of fear

Ultimate task: Reclaiming trust in yourself, others and the world, and living comfortably with uncertainty.
Type 7:

Realize it is limiting to seek only the positive
Make and fulfill commitments
Simplify, live in the present moment
Learn to become more aware of others
Allow pain and uncomfortable emotions

Ultimate task: Recognizing the escapism in the pursuit of experience and idealized future plans. Reclaiming and accepting all of life in the present moment: pain, fear and limits as well as pleasure, joy and options.

Type 8:

Reclaim innocence
Learn how much force is necessary
Moderate impact on others
Appreciate others’ truths
Allow personal vulnerability

Ultimate task: Reclaiming the ability to come freshly to each situation without prejudging and overpowering it, and appreciating that truth exists in all others.
Type 9:

Make self important
Set own boundaries, limits, priorities
Love self as well as others
Accept discomfort and change as part of life

Ultimate task: Everyone belongs equally in a state of unconditional love and union.
Source
 

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Some people know how much I hate the stereotype of INFJ. [insert rant generalising type 4s]
... k then.

i find this question unsettling and a bit ironic. i have long outridden the hipsterish phase of the 4. everybody is unique, from fingerprints to personality to memories, and one person cannot be "more of an individual" than another. i know someone who's adamantly individualistic to the point of being narcissistic, obsessed with setting trends, damning & criticising the conventional and owning her own self to the point she forces those closest to her away so she has one shred of her so-called identity to cling onto... she says some hypocritically mean things, and it's upsetting. bluntly, she's up herself. i am not like her in this way. every type, Myers-Briggs or enneagram, has it pros and cons.

i am exceptionally happy to be an INFJ 4w5 simply because it is me. if those letters or numbers were any different, i would remain just as proud. i finally feel comfortable to be who i am, i feel understood, i value my strengths having finally realised them and if i have some things i have to improve on, that's OK. i don't feel i should have any problem with that.

edit: sorry if that came off as a bit hostile. it was meant as more wryly ironic, but this very topic is something i hold some strong personal opinions about, so i apologise if i worded it a bit strongly.
 
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... k then.

i find this question unsettling and a bit ironic. i have long outridden the hipsterish phase of the 4. everybody is unique, from fingerprints to personality to memories, and one person cannot be "more of an individual" than another. i know someone who's adamantly individualistic to the point of being narcissistic, obsessed with setting trends, damning & criticising the conventional and owning her own self to the point she forces those closest to her away so she has one shred of her so-called identity to cling onto... she says some hypocritically mean things, and it's upsetting. bluntly, she's up herself. i am not like her in this way. every type, Myers-Briggs or enneagram, has it pros and cons.

i am exceptionally happy to be an INFJ 4w5 simply because it is me. if those letters or numbers were any different, i would remain just as proud. i finally feel comfortable to be who i am, i feel understood, i value my strengths having finally realised them and if i have some things i have to improve on, that's OK. i don't feel i should have any problem with that.

edit: sorry if that came off as a bit hostile. it was meant as more wryly ironic, but this very topic is something i hold some strong personal opinions about, so i apologise if i worded it a bit strongly.
No, it's totally okay that you have strong opinions about this. That's really the essence of it all: doubt. It is good that you doubt because doubt leads to understanding. This is why I feel comfortable sharing this opinion in the INFJ forum because I know all of you are kind enough not to reject my insights or opinions at first. :)

What I have bolded is key...you realize that you are not restrained by the number or representation of Type 4s in essence, but you are unconsciously limiting your perception by associating your identity with Type 4.

It is good to use Types to understand your weaknesses but the problem is people use delineating theory and not expansive theory.
Delineating theory is meant as a "top-down" way to understand things. I see X. X contains attributes Y and Z.
Expansive theory is meant as a "bottom-up" way to understand things. I see Y and Z. Therefore Y and Z are components of X (but is not X.

What I realized in figuring out my type was that I could improve on my weaknesses without delineating myself to unknown weaknesses. I am not an INFJ; INFJ is me.

This is what I'm trying to get at. I'm not intending to demean or delineate anyone. I am simply trying to make understood the processes of thinking and how they limit us in understanding the truth of things. When I wrote the first post I didn't know everything but I thought I did. Now I understand that I was limited in my perception and I apologized for that. Some things don't come until intuition develops some more.

Also thank you @MoonLight for those descriptions. Those are extremely good and basic descriptions to help people understand how they think and they can improve. :D
 

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Haha I just wandered in here and I’m going to say what I think about this ‘tragic individual separated from the world’ archetype quite flippantly. I’m an INFJ and an enneagram type 4 and the thing about me is that I can simultaneously hate myself & the world and yet appreciate the beauty in our brokenness. I see that the people in the world are hypocritical yes but I also see that I am a hypocrite too. And so I can condemn society because I know there are a lot of things wrong with it, but I can also be forgiving because I know that I’m not much better off. I end up getting really frustrated with myself especially because forgiving others is easier said than done and because I hold myself to higher moral standards because I think I see things better (in terms of insight) than most people. Some people call it narcissism but I call it being hard on myself because I know I can be better. I don’t want to be ‘base’ and blind like the rest. I know we humans were meant to be more than that. And since I can’t really control anyone else before I control myself, I try to reach that standard on a personal level first. And the trying never ceases. I fail continually but knowing that I’m trying to be someone better gives me a sense of pride, which is my type’s only fault I guess if this behavior is common.
 

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@Lost in Oblivion oh good! i am glad. seems we have some common ground to scope. :)

indeed, Myers-Briggs and such was only ever intended as an indicator and is rather vague in nature. occassionally, it touches upon something important and can bring about some remarkable insights but overall it just sweeps over most things, leaving us to connect the rest of the dots, as it should be (IMO). i believe overintellectualisation is more limiting than revelational; people do over-identify with their type. i have many traits that are not shared by the majority of other INFJ people and so do they, but we still share that overall likeness, that name, that puts us under the same over-reaching umbrella. i often feel defensive and skeptical toward labels. they're frequently abused & misused. so often do i hear, "why don't you do X? you're Y, Ys do X." in an attempt to make me fit the mould, whether Y = INFJ and X = <generic INFJ trait> or Y = student and X = drinking, smoking, so on and so forth... i am still me, and if i don't do X, then i don't do X even if i'm Y.

it's so important, in life, to keep a good hold on yourself.
 

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It is because the world wants you to embrace yourself in the world. The world wants you to be one with it, it wants you to understand it.

And you either reject or accept the world.
This begs the question: Why should I care about what the "world" wants? Because the "world" wants me to? Should I care that the world wants me to drink my life away on the weekends too? Should I care that the world wants me to treat my fellow humans as little more than the rungs of a ladder to worldly success? Should I be particularly concerned that the world wants me to be an EXSX type too?

So much time of youth is wasted on trying to fit in with the world. Find yourself, first. Do that, and the world will fit you in instead. :eek:)

Also, I find the idea of "being one with the world" as some kind of priority to be rather ignorant, let alone arrogant that you presume to know "what's best". The "world" doesn't even want to be one with itself. Wars, murders, rapes, theft, racism, sexism, discrimination, destruction, terrorism... And that's just the big, easy to see, no-intuition-required stuff. >_>

INFJs who are disenfranchised with the world have every right and reason to be.

Anyway, as a type 9, I'm content with my worldview. Obviously, you feel I shouldn't be, but that's not up to you to decide. I'm not one to suggest you change your own. :eek:P
 

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I don't know if you intended it or not ... but your post came off as berating Type 4's for what they are. (But no offense taken if no offense meant).

Personally, I don't think this whole 'difference' thing that you are describing is unique to Type 4's, nor is anything wrong with it (edit: might be at the heart of the human condition - see below).

To me, the difference goes to Marx's Theory of Alienation - a universal concept that all can relate to, as time and cultures can attest (more than a 100 years on, it still holds significance and I'm talking about Marx's actual theory/dissertation). This alienation phenomenon is particularly prominent in first-world societies because of the way they/we are structured: the gearing towards profit-making, especially in big corporations, our roles becoming more and more specialised, removing us further and further away from our objects of production, leading to things like 'golden handcuffs' or 'pin-striped prison'. The alienation concept is also a reason why we have moral rights in copyright law, and is related to the Hegelian theory of property.

I think Type 4's are just inherently aware of this - of what Marx and other philosophers and theorists are trying to articulate - and perhaps the rest of the types have simply found their 'opium of the masses' through whatever it is that they naturally gravitate to. Type 4's simply gravitate to this difference itself and they don't take the opium - they see it for what is, and perhaps try to solve it directly (as opposed to finding relief indirectly).

Neither approach is better - which shows that, really, we're never going find a perfect solution to this problem. Marx tried to craft it through communism, but in my opinion, it's too idealistic to implement in the real world (see: Soviet Union and China).
 
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