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Discussion starter · #41 ·
And there are times where I ask myself, how the heck can people find any sort or semblance of genuine happiness in this mess? Is it really “happiness”, or just bursts of satisfaction with varying degrees of length and intensity? Is it even “contentment” or an attitude of resignation towards wishing / looking for something better and more genuine?

Of course there’s the old saying that one should focus on what they can change and not think too much about what they cannot, but then I feel that’s easy to do when you either don’t even feel any sense of loss over the bad things that you can’t control / make better, or even agree with and take part in the things that makes this world the way it is.
You sound so much like my INFP husband our first 7 years together. I am going to be really frank about our experiences. I was kind of heartbroken that he never saw his own self as the solution. Like depending on the spouse for financial? I think he thought he could depend on anyone better than himself for financial stability and didn’t think it took a toll on other people like it did him, but for someone like me whose Te is 3rd place it takes a toll. Why wouldn’t you figure out how to help/ be the one to solve your own financial needs and to help your family? It has taken many years and now in his 40’s that inferior Te is developed enough and he found his place in this world enough that he is now a bad-ass at work and won a major award this year out of 5000 workers, he got recognized as the top worker, but I tell tell you honestly not many women would have gotten through those first years and I really had to change all of my expectations and learn how to take all the responsibility. Most people wouldn’t do that. I love him a lot.
Anyway, I always knew the solution was inside of him and no where else. But he couldn’t see it at all for the longest time no matter how much Ne I threw at him to sho what was possible. I don’t think he even realizes it but he came back full circle to the thing I originally knew he would love doing and be great at and that he dismissed without even looking into it. He loves his job and everyone here loves him doing it. Anyway, it is there all along. Of course we are both writing our books on the side.
 
Discussion starter · #43 · (Edited)
I’ve definitely seen the “There are a million red flags but I’m going to ignore it because our pairing is ideal!”philosophy play out a few times. I don’t know how much MBTI is to blame. While the person is using it as justification, they have seemed like the type to enter red flag relationships anyway…MBTI just happens to be their current justification.

Hypothetical pairings (and especially the data behind the pairings) are fascinating! I don’t think there are enough large studies out there to give super solid data. But the data I have seen doesn’t really back up the ‘golden type’ descriptions.

Putting out my own theories is a bit of a mine field, since there is always someone ready to be offended.🤷‍♀️I know full well it’s based on my own personal experience and observations, but there are patterns out there to be recognized.

As far as my personal experience, my marriage was already in existence and happy before MBTI came out to play. So I’ve been able to use it to flesh out certain thought processes and have a common vocabulary to discuss them. I don’t know how much of a challenge it would have been to do that without a pre-built base.
Exactly, the studies show some trends but the whole “ideal” and “dual” and “golden” it is all made up by whomever wants to make up stuff. Did I already say this somewhere? But I think it could kind of be compared to birth stones? Why is May an emerald? Well, because someone figured out they could make money by giving a personal touch to jewels. Make this rock seem personal... that’s not how I view MBTI matches exactly, but that is how I would view calling something “golden”. Maybe I want to write about the platinum or titanium relationship.

The studies that I’ve found (I think I’ve mostly linked everything I’ve found in this thread and I know you have looked at these and linked them in other threads) have pretty much just shown that STJ and NF together mostly makes both people miserable, the STJ more miserable than the NF even— even though ESTJ and INFP is a common pairing. There are also special problems with ISTJ and ESTJ together. SP and NT seem to do okay and NF with other NF okay and also NF with NT seem to do okay with the NT reporting high happiness, SJ and SJ fine. SJ and SP fine. Those are trends from the studies we’ve seen. But do I think an ESTaj and an INFP can work it out? Yes, for sure.

I just think certain people need what they need for reasons specific to them. I was sitting next to a couple I’ve known for a while last night with an INFP male who is a nurse anethesthetist and an ISFJ and she is so methodical and he comes home to a perfect-looking house that is completely ship-shape even though they have 3 kids under the age of 3 (twins + 1)and a teenager. I realized he really just wants everything ship-shape so that he can do his job and then play video games and feel like they are on top of everything. Not that he doesn’t help with the child-rearing, but the sensory stuff in place is what I think he wanted. And I think he views the feeler to feeler part of their relationship as important and the coordination of schedules she does for him important. They seem to like being with each other. On her end it works from her deep commitment and ability to be the best mom she wants to be as she is completely provided for and they are both committed and secure, both have common values and are very active in their religion together. I don’t think they talk that much (not all that much) and I don’t think they would care if they knew other couples were closer talking-wise. For instance, if they experienced my husband and I and our type of talk with our Ne-Fi Fi-Ne back and forth which is deeply meaningful and exciting for us! I mean... of course I’d say we are tighter-knit friends than most couples. But would someone else think that an energizing friendship was the most important thing in a marriage? Did they even know that was something to look for? Would they feel better with more emotional distance than what I would ever want to afford a partner? What I’m saying is... what I value in a relationship is not what someone else would value in a relationship. And is there a perfect relationship? I think there is only “perfect for you” because I know our garage needs cleaning and my tolerance for not having it cleaned is pretty high... but my tolerance for not feeling close and connected? Not connected is not really tolerated by me at all. If I give my husband space playing a video game, I’d like to hear about what he experienced while playing his video game. That sounds oppressive, but I think we really do both want to know each others’ thoughts and emotions, me someone more than him I have to say, but then I can adjust to work with him so that the health of what is between us is always what matters to me... to be honest, it’s my oxygen.

Anyway, I think a major part of all of it is just what an individual really values. Some people have learned to appreciate certain skills in others. Many skills have nothing to do with MBTI. You use your cognitive functions to learn to play the piano, but whether you learn to play the piano or not is not dependent on type. Some of us want certain skills in our other person and why? Probably because it helps whatever we are trying to do work and hopefully the pairing is beneficial to both.

Another example on appreciation. I sit next to 2 ESTJ respiratory therapists some times and one of them doesn’t appreciate NF and basically talks over me. Yesterday I’m giving directions to someone and he comes over and asks what is needed and repeats/re-tells them/talks over me because I guess he is sure I can’t do it like he does it. The other ESTJ says I remind her of her sweet sister who has “angel qualities that I just don’t have. I’m so glad people like her are in this world.” So it’s like that... learned appreciation and what you feel like you “need.” And if you find those two things, go ahead and write about the “emerald pairing” or whatever for yourself, but I think it can be just that individual. Each pair together or not together for reasons that work for mainly just those two, actually, and probably shouldn’t be made to carry over to the whole type.

In other words, go ahead and like emeralds, but don’t tell someone else that’s all they should look at just because they are your same type and don’t tell someone else not to buy them because it’s not their birthstone. Life is hard enough, we don’t need to add to the difficulty by being told what we should appreciate, in my opinion.
 
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Discussion starter · #44 ·
@Llyralen thank you so much for always taking INFP's side! 😃
/Hugs! Of course! /And more hugs! Thank you for seeing that is what I do! I don’t always take the INFP side gently though, do I? /hug
 
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And there are times where I ask myself, how the heck can people find any sort or semblance of genuine happiness in this mess?
My ex, an INFP, is now with another INFP, and it seems like they're perfect for each other. I'm beginning to think that the phrase, "Opposites attract," is just there to distract people from the reality that "Similarity attracts" - where the opposite already exists in the sex of the two partners.

Likewise, I think INFJ are the best pairing for INFJ, and the more I think about it, the more I see each type have this reaction to their similar type. If both can operate on the same frequency, of course, which is kind of hard. So, even though I think these situations are ideal, it does not come without work, and that's hard for people to do when they're wrapped up in stress and insecurity and "demands" of the "real world."

If you are an INFP, this site is dominated by your type. If you go actively looking for an INFP partner, you should find one here; it's where introverts live. This would be ideal, because neither have the motivation to actively go out and seek what they want. Post your creativity, attract an INFP here, gather your courage to maybe one day kind of sort of ok I guess go see them, and see what happens.

My ex found her current person from playing WoW and them keeping in contact for years. So, do something. Connect with your type. I think it's good.
 
I don’t think you fully understood me because I was not referring to my trouble getting along with other NF types. The “happiness” I was referring to wasn’t strictly referring to romantic relationships but rather a general sense of bewilderment at how many people (mostly S types) from my point-of-view can be so blind and indifferent to the stuff we (not just INFPs but all NF types really) are so sensitive to. Of course this does cross into the domain of finding a life partner but I was talking about other things too.

In my language in recent years there’s been a term that’s thrown around a lot (a little hard to translate directly into English): 小确幸 (rough translation: Little tangible moments of luck / happiness). I am all for this and I really agree with this idea that oftentimes the best things in life are the little things, but I feel as though the way this term is used by people in the context of this current world (which I hope will come to pass ASAP) is an attitude of resignation and stagnation rather than appreciating and enjoying “the little things” under the “umbrella” of a greater happiness and harmony in which we don’t have to worry about so many of the things that break us as NFs.

However, going back to what you said, I think the “opposites attract” idea is way overblown and one that I agree less and less with the more I think about it. I feel it’s very important to share the same or similar views when it comes to most stuff, and have some complementary traits / little quirks that draw one to the other and vice versa. I don’t know who came up with this “opposites attract” thing in the first place but it doesn’t turn out well in the long run.

Don’t know how I’d do with another INFP to be honest if we get on each other’s bad side lol. Maybe a different Enneagram?

I see you have the same Enneagram combination as me despite being INFJ. Is this a common combination for INFJs / do you think it makes you INFP-like in certain ways?

Lots of people type themselves as INFJ but I know maybe 2, maybe even just one in person. Most hilarious was when an ESFP with multiple dead giveaways that she was ESFP somehow typed herself as INFJ hah.
 
Well you can see the same thing from different angles, ENFP magic.

I think any match will work as long as the two are in check.

Physical Compatibility
Personality Compatibility


ENFP INFP ENTP CS/BP FM 538 combines well with INFJ INTJ INTP ENTJ PB/CS MF 538.

Regards,
 
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Thanks for sharing your experience as an ENFP. I know this is personal but did you ever feel any sense of resentment towards him? What about him made you keep going and adjust your expectations the way you did? I’m sorry to hear what you had to go through but I’m glad things are going well for you guys and I really admire your strength. Any kids? And what kinds of books are you two writing?

If you had to give a list of qualities that you feel an INFP really needs in a partner, especially when the man’s the INFP, what would they be? Would you say it takes a special kind of gal to marry and stay married to an INFP?
 
I’d love it if you could elaborate on which ways you think the STJ (or SJ in general) may be the one that ends up suffering more in a relationship with an NF.

And also, we don’t hear about this nearly as much because we’re usually focused on the N / S divide but I’d also be interested in hearing more on how S types can clash with each other.
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
Thanks for sharing your experience as an ENFP. I know this is personal but did you ever feel any sense of resentment towards him? What about him made you keep going and adjust your expectations the way you did? I’m sorry to hear what you had to go through but I’m glad things are going well for you guys and I really admire your strength. Any kids? And what kinds of books are you two writing?

If you had to give a list of qualities that you feel an INFP really needs in a partner, especially when the man’s the INFP, what would they be? Would you say it takes a special kind of gal to marry and stay married to an INFP?
I’d say it depends on the INFP and the circumstances. Quite honestly for about 3-4 years when my kids were tiny I cried almost every day on my lunch break and driving to and from work because I got so little time with my kids and they wanted mom so badly and I wanted to be with them so badly but had no choice. In the particular culture he and I grew up in it is still expected that the wife gets to be home with the kids, and I had talked to him about my wishes with that before we got married. So I never dreamed that he wouldn’t work hard to make that happen the same way the other men in my family had and have for their wives. I definitely didn’t expect to be the full time bread earner. It was a lot of responsibility on my shoulders and I think he thought it was easy for anyone but him. His feelings of inadequacy and depression when it came to jobs had a huge impact on my life. The thing is, he’s brilliant and funny and really awesome to be around but I felt like (and it’s true) he had no compassion for me for what I was sacrificing so in that way I felt very unloved and uncared for for years. That he didn’t try hard or understand how his decisions affected me was also isolating. I guess he felt he just had to do what he did for his own health and ignore the consequences for me. He wouldn’t have been able to hear this story from my perspective back then and now he knows things are good. He has completely changed. His work gives him confidence and pride. We shoulder most of the financial part of life equally. The frustrating thing for me was that I knew this was always possible for him, just he didn’t. He kept trying to get degrees that he then decided not to use... actually my INFP sister does that too. Her most recent is a degree in graphic design that she said “It would take too much work to put together a portfolio so nobody will hire me.” But she never tried to get hired in that field. She just took it for granted that she needed a portfolio and also that it would take too long.

My husband is actually working so happily in something that always came so naturally to him but that for some reason he never looked into (I had encouraged him a bunch of times) until he naturally worked his way up into it from another job. He can take some conflict now because he has a philosophy on how to deal with it and a supportive manager (she loves him) to discuss it with. He teaches doctors how to use computer software. He is an excellent teacher, he grew up under the front counter at the ER (his mom is a ER nurse and was allowed to take him to work with her when young) so he is very familiar with everything medical and he is great with computers. Then he ends up being the only people person in the IT department so the doctors and everyone adore him. Plus he’s hilarious. It all works. He has always helped all our neighbors and my family with computer things... it’s why I said he should go into tech support, but he didn’t give it a look for years. Hospital administration would have worked too, but I think not as well as what he is doing because with this he can give a personal touch. Actually I can’t imagine any job more fulfilling and using all of his talents as this job does.

I think many people... most of us... try to outsource our inferior function to our loved ones thinking It’s easier for them than us and then not really thinking about the consequences for them. I think, depending on the wishes and thinking of the other person it can be a much more difficult thing than we think. Feelings of inadequacy can be crippling. Thinking others can’t handle who you are can be crippling. Everyone’s inferior function shows up slightly differently as well... but you see my quote at the bottom? See what can happen if you plunge into things you were avoiding. This is definitely my husband’s treasure now. Good luck!
 
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Discussion starter · #52 ·
I’d love it if you could elaborate on which ways you think the STJ (or SJ in general) may be the one that ends up suffering more in a relationship with an NF.

And also, we don’t hear about this nearly as much because we’re usually focused on the N / S divide but I’d also be interested in hearing more on how S types can clash with each other.
The study this info comes from (it’s linked above somewhere) doesn’t go into why the STJ was unhappy, it just used a happiness scale and took percentiles from that. The NFs were unhappy with STJs but the STJs rated their happiness even lower than the NFs did. Since they grouped everything by Kiersey type, it’s only when you read the conclusions that you see that SFJs were quite happy with NFs... so I wonder if the percentiles for STJs with NFs were even lower than reported since they reported the numbers of SJ all together.

I can imagine STJs being very unhappy with NFPs anyway, can’t you? I mean I’m just postulating here but it is the rare STJ that values our ideas above past tried end true method and I think they think we are just trying to undo everything for them to get used to all of the time. In my real-life dealings with STJs they look to me for solutions, but what they often want is just small changes and confirmation that what is being done is great and running smoothly. Okay, just being very frank again with my experiences, but my STJ in-laws just want to hear that they are already right about everything and that I value everything that has already been established. To want to change or do something different is interpreted as ingratitude. Something they think might be dead wrong but they are not open to any information that conflicts with it. So I think they see all of my talents as useless unless they are asking for my talents because something went wrong and... they are never wrong... they are Prince Humperdinck. So if they see you as ineffectual and a dreamer and ungrateful... I mean we NFs can understand others easily. They cannot so I think unless they derive self-value from “protecting you” then what value do you have? And also if the NF starts to resent it or assert independence, where does that leave you? I think it’s totally possible with STJs, but I think it takes the more special STJs, if that makes sense. I do have a few STJ co-workers who respect me, thank God, but I think it is much tougher for them and it takes time They have to be able to admit that changes they didn’t see were needed were good for one thing and for another that you’re not just trying to mess everything up and they have to understand or value the people-oriented reasons you would want to do that. Understanding others and intuition is in their inferior functions. So it must be hard for them to see our love since it is coming from functions they suppress or haven’t grown yet. Those are my thoughts, but I don’t think I am more knowledgeable in this area than others. Anyone can probably talk about positive and negative experiences with any type.
 
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Here are the stats from the Tieger & Barron-Tieger study. The first temperament listed in each pairing is the one giving the satisfaction rating.

SJ x SJ 79%
NF x NF 73%
SP x NT 73%
SJ x SP 71%
NT x NF 65%
NF x NT 64%
SP x SJ 63%
SJ x NT 62%
SP x SP 59%
NT x NT 59%
SJ x NF 58%
NT x SP 54%
SP x NF 54%
NT x SJ 52%
NF x SP 51%
NF x SJ 46%
 
The study this info comes from (it’s linked above somewhere) doesn’t go into why the STJ was unhappy, it just used a happiness scale and took percentiles from that. The NFs were unhappy with STJs but the STJs rated their happiness even lower than the NFs did. Since they grouped everything by Kiersey type, it’s only when you read the conclusions that you see that SFJs were quite happy with NFs... so I wonder if the percentiles for STJs with NFs were even lower than reported since they reported the numbers of SJ all together.
I can absolutely see the logic in that. Fe-dom or Fe-aux is willing to lean into areas they aren't comfortable with because Fe actively rewards them when the result is an increase in happiness/unity. It isn't that Te isn't willing to go there...but it doesn't necessarily see the straight line of connection.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
I can absolutely see the logic in that. Fe-dom or Fe-aux is willing to lean into areas they aren't comfortable with because Fe actively rewards them when the result is an increase in happiness/unity. It isn't that Te isn't willing to go there...but it doesn't necessarily see the straight line of connection.
I think so too.
Did I get some of those stats mixed up though? Hmm, I will re-look. Maybe I read it backwards once. I remember reading a stat where the SJ was more miserable than the NF and that made me laugh pretty hard to think that all the work that I knew would go into that relationship was not paying off for SJs either. But I do remember in the conclusions they said the SFJs reported good numbers with NFs, but maybe that was the one that rated happiness with each personality separately? Okay, I will do a literature search and link that one as well.

I’m getting a short story published, btw! The one in the anthology... I will probably PM you. /hugs
 
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I think so too.
Did I get some of those stats mixed up though? Hmm, I will re-look. Maybe I read it backwards once. I remember reading a stat where the SJ was more miserable than the NF and that made me laugh pretty hard to think that all the work that I knew would go into that relationship was not paying off for SJs either. But I do remember in the conclusions they said the SFJs reported good numbers with NFs, but maybe that was the one that rated happiness with each personality separately? Okay, I will do a literature search and link that one as well.

I’m getting a short story published, btw! The one in the anthology... I will probably PM you. /hugs
Congrats on the short story! Very fun.

I pulled up the stats that factor in the T/F for the SJs and the P/J for the NFs. Again, the first temperament listed in each pairing is the one giving the satisfaction rating.

SFJ with NFP 86%
SFJ with NFJ 67%
STJ with NFJ 58%
NFJ with SFJ 57%
NFP with SFJ 53%
NFJ with STJ 49%
STJ with NFP 45%
NFP with STJ 42%
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
Congrats on the short story! Very fun.

I pulled up the stats that factor in the T/F for the SJs and the P/J for the NFs. Again, the first temperament listed in each pairing is the one giving the satisfaction rating.

SFJ with NFP 86%
SFJ with NFJ 67%
STJ with NFJ 58%
NFJ with SFJ 57%
NFP with SFJ 53%
NFJ with STJ 49%
STJ with NFP 45%
NFP with STJ 42%
There it is, I was wrong NFP is more miserable.... but it’s not like the STJ is happy. So interesting on the SFJ being so happy with NFP and the NFP not really!
These stats are just funny when you think of the lives they represent! So funny....and real...
Thank you very much!
 
There it is, I was wrong NFP is more miserable.... but it’s not like the STJ is happy. So interesting on the SFJ being so happy with NFP and the NFP not really!
These stats are just funny when you think of the lives they represent! So funny....and real...
Thank you very much!
You're welcome! I love digging down into the stats. There are some interesting revelations in there.
 
Discussion starter · #59 ·
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