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Discussion Starter #1
I have invested a bunch of time lately into researching Enneagram, but I haven't been doing it for a long period of time.

I am typed as 8w7, I want to be 8w7, and others online seem to lean towards 8w7. This makes me doubt that 8w7 is correct; it seems too convenient, and it has problems.

However, there are a few problems with this diagnosis. I will list 5; anyone who can overcome them or validate them will be thanked.

1. I am not a physical person; I never cared for sports and so on; however, this was partly because I wasn't good at them, and I couldn't stand doing something I wasn't ever able to be the best at.

2. I am primarily perceived as a cerebral person, even among other cerebral people. I can shape myself into an 'charismatic' version, a 'spontaneous version', a 'leader' version, and so on; however, my default is cerebral.

3. Although I almost never feel emotional guilt about anything, I am intellectually convinced that what I do is at times not right.

4. I believe in an ideal society, and am interested in promoting ideals when I am convinced of their absolute truth, not their benefit to others. I don't care about them for humanitarian reasons, but because I like them or believe they are right.

5. I am not an id type. I am pretty overwhelmingly dominated by the superego, unless I crash. In that case, I tend to just 'soak up' information and/or food passively for long periods of time. The ego rarely enters into the calculus because I tend to be extreme.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Also, if anyone wants to propose some kind of reasonable test I could put myself to (situational, I mean), I would probably be willing to do it for the sake of seeing what the results would be.

For example, how to distinguish a counterphobic 6 from an 8? I guess situational testing is the best way, because people should revert to type subconciously, probably even if they realize what they are doing is a test.
 

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1. Unrelated.
2. Also unrelated. You may have a head type as your second, + being an INTJ. Many 8s are cerebral, as long as some part of you speaks from the heart, this is not related. If you are suggesting that everything you say and do is sifted through a mental filter and you don't really have that personal drive / initiative then that's another story. There should be some sense of operational spontaneity.
3. Do you mean based on some cultural idea of right and wrong? I'm not sure this makes much sense. Can you elaborate on this idea you're trying to express?
4. Hmm, I'm not too sure about this one, are you suggesting this is a one-ish tendency? I don't think a person believing in an ideal society suggests the person is not an 8.
5. 8w7 is id on id. If you feel you're not operational based on instincts, then look at either 8w9 or something else.

One thing that's clear is you need more elaboration, the words you use are more or less grey and hard to take conclusions from.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
1. Unrelated.
2. Also unrelated. You may have a head type as your second, + being an INTJ. Many 8s are cerebral, as long as some part of you speaks from the heart, this is not related. If you are suggesting that everything you say and do is sifted through a mental filter and you don't really have that personal drive / initiative then that's another story. There should be some sense of operational spontaneity.
3. Do you mean based on some cultural idea of right and wrong? I'm not sure this makes much sense. Can you elaborate on this idea you're trying to express?
4. Hmm, I'm not too sure about this one, are you suggesting this is a one-ish tendency? I don't think a person believing in an ideal society suggests the person is not an 8.
5. 8w7 is id on id. If you feel you're not operational based on instincts, then look at either 8w9 or something else.

One thing that's clear is you need more elaboration, the words you use are more or less grey and hard to take conclusions from.
3. (Elaboration) No, not a cultural definition; a religious definition. I suscribe to a religious definition of right and wrong, and mostly submit to it because I believe it is right and therefore I must. If I think it (mostly) falls outside the religious definition, I like to break the rules of other definitions (just because I can). For example, I am somebody who would take pleasure in littering; not because it is a convenient thing to do, but just because I know other people (the law) forbid me to. But I think this is a common experience, possibly.

4. (Elaboration) I thought that belief in a personal 'ideal' society that you partly made up, partly borrowed from other sources is a type 1 thing to do. I thought that type 8 is supposed to be amoral about non-personal issues. This may be a misconception.

5. I trust my instincts (or 'intuition') when it comes to other people. I also do this when it comes to planning things, most of the time (if I think I can't succeed at something, although I have no evidence that I can't, I won't attempt it). I like to take 'shots' at answering correctly questions relating to things I know little about, just based on guesswork and extrapolation lines.

However, if I suddenly have the desire to move to Russia, I wouldn't do it regardless. If I suddenly have the desire to start driving at high speeds on the highway, I also won't do that. Also, I tend not to suddenly have urges and desires to do things outside my 'routine'. I might routinely go swimming; if this is the case, I might also have a sudden desire to go swimming. However, if I don't routinely go skiiing, I won't really ever have the desire to suddenly go and ski, and if I did I would ignore it. This is what I mean by not being id.
 

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^ That is not necessarily 'id type'. It reads more like a stereotype of not-7 or perhaps not-8. The stuff about not having urges/desires or not following them.

I might consider 1, and I was also wondering if you had considered type 3. It seems like a vague possibility, with the connections to 6 and 9 also apparent in the OP.

2. I am primarily perceived as a cerebral person, even among other cerebral people. I can shape myself into an 'charismatic' version, a 'spontaneous version', a 'leader' version, and so on; however, my default is cerebral.
This speaks strongly to the possibility of an image type. You can shape yourself into different things - why do this?

3s can also be quite cerebral in their way. Cerebrality is useful and valued in certain contexts.

3. Although I almost never feel emotional guilt about anything, I am intellectually convinced that what I do is at times not right.
Not sure how relevant it is, but it rings a little bit like Naranjo was talking about in 3s, being more intellectually than emotionally driven, even kind of ignoring their emotions. 3s are also likely to have a sense of superego if they tend toward introspection, especially through the connection with 6.

4. I believe in an ideal society, and am interested in promoting ideals when I am convinced of their absolute truth, not their benefit to others. I don't care about them for humanitarian reasons, but because I like them or believe they are right.
I think this is a bit 6 rather than 1, since you seem to seek the belief in the ideal in order to determine whether to promote it. Also looks like a possible integrational manifestation of 3, as it suggests the more heroic aspect of 6.

You could also interpret it as 1-like, which could also mean somehow connected to 1 (7-1, 4-1).

5. I am not an id type. I am pretty overwhelmingly dominated by the superego, unless I crash. In that case, I tend to just 'soak up' information and/or food passively for long periods of time. The ego rarely enters into the calculus because I tend to be extreme.
If you think of yourself as a cerebral person, this is something of a slothful use of the intellect, is it not? It suggests disintegration at 9.
 

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3. (Elaboration) No, not a cultural definition; a religious definition. I suscribe to a religious definition of right and wrong, and mostly submit to it because I believe it is right and therefore I must. If I think it (mostly) falls outside the religious definition, I like to break the rules of other definitions (just because I can). For example, I am somebody who would take pleasure in littering; not because it is a convenient thing to do, but just because I know other people (the law) forbid me to. But I think this is a common experience, possibly.

4. (Elaboration) I thought that belief in a personal 'ideal' society that you partly made up, partly borrowed from other sources is a type 1 thing to do. I thought that type 8 is supposed to be amoral about non-personal issues. This may be a misconception.

5. I trust my instincts (or 'intuition') when it comes to other people. I also do this when it comes to planning things, most of the time (if I think I can't succeed at something, although I have no evidence that I can't, I won't attempt it). I like to take 'shots' at answering correctly questions relating to things I know little about, just based on guesswork and extrapolation lines.

However, if I suddenly have the desire to move to Russia, I wouldn't do it regardless. If I suddenly have the desire to start driving at high speeds on the highway, I also won't do that. Also, I tend not to suddenly have urges and desires to do things outside my 'routine'. I might routinely go swimming; if this is the case, I might also have a sudden desire to go swimming. However, if I don't routinely go skiiing, I won't really ever have the desire to suddenly go and ski, and if I did I would ignore it. This is what I mean by not being id.
Give type 1 a look, let me know how you feel about it.
 

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Also, if anyone wants to propose some kind of reasonable test I could put myself to (situational, I mean), I would probably be willing to do it for the sake of seeing what the results would be.

For example, how to distinguish a counterphobic 6 from an 8? I guess situational testing is the best way, because people should revert to type subconciously, probably even if they realize what they are doing is a test.
@Cosmic Orgasm can provide you that wisdom :happy:
 

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Am I supposed to be the cp6/8 specialist around here? :laughing:
A simple search of the E-theory forum will bring up a bunch of threads on this topic.
It wouldn't be cosmic if it was just around here, now would it? ;)

But never mind, I remembered you recently posted on this so I'll just link to that post
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/141007-why-counter-phobic-6s-get-confused-8s.html#post3572815

Also, I had been looking for an opportunity to mention your new username :laughing: Of course, pun intended.
 

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It wouldn't be cosmic if it was just around here, now would it? ;)

But never mind, I remembered you recently posted on this so I'll just link to that post
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/141007-why-counter-phobic-6s-get-confused-8s.html#post3572815

Also, I had been looking for an opportunity to mention your new username :laughing: Of course, pun intended.
http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/147664-cp6-vs-8-a.html#post3753976

I chanced upon that post by @mushr00m :laughing:. Poor mushy ended up collecting every goddamn thread on this subject for future use.

And, :laughing: @ chance to mention new username. +10 for you that you even recognized it was me. Like 10 people have walked up to me and been like..."zomg YOU are cosmic orgasm lofl". I said, bitch please, check my sig. :proud:

:D
 

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I chanced upon that post by @mushr00m :laughing:. Poor mushy ended up collecting every goddamn thread on this subject for future use.
Oh yeah, that was fun! It just got to the point where there would be a cp6/8 question thread every week, it was nuts, im like, aggaaaiinn...So yeah. And I don't think I saw another one of those question threads for at least another couple of weeks :laughing:
 

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Oh yeah, that was fun! It just got to the point where there would be a cp6/8 question thread every week, it was nuts, im like, aggaaaiinn...So yeah. And I don't think I saw another one of those question threads for at least another couple of weeks :laughing:
But this thread isn't mainly about cp6 v. 8...
 

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So, cp6 is anxious and worries all the time; 8 is worried and afraid subconciously... I can't be cp6 because I am almost never conciously afraid or nervous. I don't like fear or admitting I can't do something; I have directed the last two years towards deliberately doing something I know I have no talent or ability in just because I want to be able to say that I started with my weakest point, and made it into a strength.

(Note: I didn't actually conciously think the above when beginning my pursuit; I just thought I wanted to see if I could conquer the thing which I thought would be most difficult. This is my opinion in retrospect.)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I think I began at the wrong end; maybe I should answer the classic questions... I will edit the original post to reflect this... comment if interested...
 

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I have invested a bunch of time lately into researching Enneagram, but I haven't been doing it for a long period of time.

I am typed as 8w7, I want to be 8w7, and others online seem to lean towards 8w7. This makes me doubt that 8w7 is correct; it seems too convenient, and it has problems.

However, there are a few problems with this diagnosis. I will list 5; anyone who can overcome them or validate them will be thanked.

1. I am not a physical person; I never cared for sports and so on; however, this was partly because I wasn't good at them, and I couldn't stand doing something I wasn't ever able to be the best at.

2. I am primarily perceived as a cerebral person, even among other cerebral people. I can shape myself into an 'charismatic' version, a 'spontaneous version', a 'leader' version, and so on; however, my default is cerebral.

3. Although I almost never feel emotional guilt about anything, I am intellectually convinced that what I do is at times not right.

4. I believe in an ideal society, and am interested in promoting ideals when I am convinced of their absolute truth, not their benefit to others. I don't care about them for humanitarian reasons, but because I like them or believe they are right.

5. I am not an id type. I am pretty overwhelmingly dominated by the superego, unless I crash. In that case, I tend to just 'soak up' information and/or food passively for long periods of time. The ego rarely enters into the calculus because I tend to be extreme.
1. I am not a physical person; I never cared for sports and so on; however, this was partly because I wasn't good at them, and I couldn't stand doing something I wasn't ever able to be the best at.
Sounds like inferior Se with a 1 desire for perfection. 1 sounds definite in the tritype, at least here.

2. I am primarily perceived as a cerebral person, even among other cerebral people. I can shape myself into an 'charismatic' version, a 'spontaneous version', a 'leader' version, and so on; however, my default is cerebral.
Depends, is it warm or just placating and charismatic? Oprah's charisma is warm, while Obama's is much more stilted in comparison.

3. Although I almost never feel emotional guilt about anything, I am intellectually convinced that what I do is at times not right.
How do you distinguish emotional guilt from cerebral guilt?


4. I believe in an ideal society, and am interested in promoting ideals when I am convinced of their absolute truth, not their benefit to others. I don't care about them for humanitarian reasons, but because I like them or believe they are right.
Sounds like a 1 influence again. There's an ideal; you have even idealized 8.

5. I am not an id type. I am pretty overwhelmingly dominated by the superego, unless I crash. In that case, I tend to just 'soak up' information and/or food passively for long periods of time. The ego rarely enters into the calculus because I tend to be extreme
Could be inferior Se again.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Main Questions

1. What drives you in life? What do you look for?

I am driven to do a lot of things; as a child I dreamed of being the King of the World and always built complex hierarchies with a king or dictator at the top when I was playing. I want to gain a position of power and influence; I would also like to found a movement or write a great book that will be read for generations to come. I want to establish my family and advance their interests. I want to win a total victory because I know that I am essentially right and am going to succeed and will rise to the top. I realize many of these are unrealistic, but what can I say?

2. What do you hope to accomplish in your life?

Covered

3. What do you hope to avoid doing or being? What values are important to you?

Weak and dependent. Unable to win the best, to instead sink to the bottom (I do everything in black-and-white).

Knowing what is right, wanting that, and going out and getting it. Not being weak and unable to decide things.


4. What are your biggest fears (not including phobias)? Why?

That I will not be able to secure an independent position (I mostly assume that a position of power will naturally follow if I achieve this)


5. How do you want others to see you? How do you see yourself?

The man in charge, the man who is at the top. Also, interesting and more intelligent than everyone else, but both of these together are not enough to make up for the lack of the first.

I see myself as in the process of becoming what I want to become. I don't generally doubt that I will succeed, although there may be delays on the way to victory.

6. What makes you feel your best? What makes you feel your worst?

Being 'in love', because it makes the world have 'bright colors'; for a while you get to think that the other person is perfect and wonderful and flawless, instead of having to face the hard reality that everyone is scheming and selfish and self-aggrandizing and corrupt.

Losing a 'war' that matters. Losing a short-term 'battle' is one thing; losing a 'war' is final, and means you failed and got whipped by someone else. You don't have any excuses or rationalizations then; you know that you threw in the towel because you just didn't cut it.

7. Describe how you experience each of: a) anger; b) shame; c) anxiety.

I don't get angry a lot. I only get angry if someone does an injustice to me, or if they try to take me in and manipulate me into doing an injustice to others (actually, if they manipulate me period). In that case, the person who did that is beyond the pale. Even if I might not want to go as far as I can, I will anyway because I know that they deserve it, and justice needs to be delivered. I don't like pretending that fear of going too far is mercy, unless it really is.

I am not ashamed.

I focus on the consequences of failing more than the consequences of winning if I am experiencing anxiety.

8. Describe how you respond to each of: a) stress; b) unexpected change; c) conflict.

Just keep on. Sometimes I whine and complain, but not often. That's a weakness that I acknowledge and despise in myself and others.

It depends. Mostly I hate it.

I like some conflict. I dislike 'weak' people who won't push back if I tell them what to do. On the other hand, if they are engaging in it to defeat me (in an agressive way), then I like it if I win or up to a point if we have a draw. I hate it if we lose.

If it is an authority figure, I don't like conflict because they are going to win. I don't engage in fights I can't win. So, I never argue with superiors.

9. Describe your orientation to: a) authority; b) power. How do you respond to these?

I want them. Especially the first. Scheming in the background is all very well if you can't win; for those who can, they should be out in the open and acknowledged.

10. What is your overall outlook on life and humanity?

They're both pretty bad. Life is full of thorns and trouble; even the few pleasures are poisoned by the knowledge that it is time wasted from our short lives. What do we really accomplish in our lives? Not a whole lot.

People definitely give life a run for its money. People are mostly either smart, nasty, manipulative and vicious, or they are are just stupid and animalistically selfish, or they are repulsively weak and defeatist. There are a few pompous windbags who think they are altruistic, but these are the worst of all four main categories (in my book). They are liars and hypocrites. The variation of person I admire most in the real world is the anti-hero who openly admits he's out to take what he can get, and will do just about anything to get it. That's what everyone boils down to; most people just won't admit it. The guys who make a bunch of money talking about everyone's special gift are just that: guys out to make a bunch of money telling people what they want to hear, giving them a balm to salve the wounds of failure and defeat. Everyone loses in the long run; the big winner is a myth.


Optional Questions

11. Discuss an event that has impacted your life significantly; more importantly, how you responded to it.

I got a summer job with a company with the understanding on their part that I would stay on with them after I went back to school in the summer. They never made me promise that; it was just their arrogant 'understanding'. I didn't undeceive them. After a bit, I started school and realized it wasn't going to work out. I cut my hours twice (to ease them to the idea of me leaving) and then quit. I have a right to quit, I'm not a wage-slave to be controlled 'for the good of the company'. The company isn't alive, it doesn't have a 'good'. The managers just had an interest in keeping on summer trainees, and wanted to look good to their managers by keeping me on. Some 'general good'.

So, the event was that I got too busy to work multiple jobs; I responded by quitting the most worthless of them. I didn't like that job and I didn't like the managers there. They were lazy and lax and didn't want to have to do their job of managing the employees. If the employees responded by working less, they suddenly jumped on it and acted as though it was all supposed to run smoothly, and only the employee was to blame. They were hypocrites who tried to manipulate me into staying on with them. I had kept three other jobs open just so I wouldn't be dependent in just such a situation. The situation came up, and I had the satisfaction of leaving them hanging, and without regret.

And no, this isn't my opinion of the managers at my other three jobs. Just that one.

12. Comment on your relationship with trust.

I trust my family and a few in my 'social circle'. I don't trust anyone else. Now, there are degrees of predictability, of course, but that is different than trust. I know a few people who I can depend on to do stuff for me. However, that is because they ascribe intentions and motives to me that just aren't there. I try not to deliberately deceive anyone, but if someone wants to believe I am something to them, I don't see it as my job to undeceive them. Use it for what it's worth, is my opinion. So, if I can predict their actions based on their favorable opinions of my motives, then that is predictability. It isn't trust; I'm not going to open up to them and tell them stuff about me.

13. List some of the traits you: a) like; b) dislike most about yourself.

I either like all of myself at once, or I dislike all of myself at once. I am a package deal; there aren't little 'segments' that can be cordoned off. Mostly, I like myself. Now and then I don't.

14. What do you see or notice in others that most people don't?

Whether they are worth talking with for a productive purpose. I know if they are useless to me or not. I also try to notice when I am being manipulated, but since I always expect to be manipulated, this tends to go into overkill.


15. If a stranger insults you, how do you respond/feel? What if they compliment you?

I say "Dude, you're probably right. Do you think you can help me change?". Or something else sarcastic to make them look like an idiot. Or, I might tell them that it's none of their business.

I always say in this case, "Do I know you?" in a tone to imply that only a weirdo talks to a complete stranger. I continue along in this line because I mostly take compliments as veiled insults (because the complimenter is implying the power to judge and evaluate you; this isn't the role of a stranger)


16. What's something you are: a) thankful you have; b) wish you could have? Why?

I am tired of answering these questions and don't see the point of this one. So I won't answer it.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Sounds like inferior Se with a 1 desire for perfection. 1 sounds definite in the tritype, at least here.



Depends, is it warm or just placating and charismatic? Oprah's charisma is warm, while Obama's is much more stilted in comparison..
It's more like the 'bold' person who just comes out and says things that are borderline rude and blunt, but who no one gets offended at because of the 'charming' way it is said (not too serious, or anything perceived as an attack).

Or, it can also be somewhat like the stilted intellectual 'Obama' charisma. Never like Oprah in the slightest; I'm never warm, although I can be passionate.



How do you distinguish emotional guilt from cerebral guilt?.
Emotional guilt is when you feel bad or guilty about what you did. It's a feeling. Cerebral guilt is when you say to yourself, "Gosh, that was wrong, wasn't it? I better not do that again." And then you drop it, and that's it. You don't feel bad about it, and you would do it again if you didn't think first. I virtually never feel bad about anything I do, because I wouldn't do it unless I wanted to.




Sounds like a 1 influence again. There's an ideal; you have even idealized 8.



Could be inferior Se again.
Yes, idealizing 8 does look like a 1. But I want to be an 8! What I really want is for someone to tell me I am an 8, and then to prove it (because if I'm not really an 8, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, does it...)
 
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