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Discussion Starter #1
I'm am confused by the hole Do Si La Sol Fa Mi Re or Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do thing.

It just doesn't make sense comparing it to what is real. I know and have know for almost 40 years that there are eighteen energies and that they come in pairs, two 1's , two 2's , two 3's , two 4's , two 5's , two 6's , two 7's , two 8's , and two 9's. And that there are three basic energies. And now I have a conches understanding or the three instinctual variant energies and there structural construct and movements in its basic format operations that co operates in its operations as mechanism or a mechanism.

But the thing that gets me is that knowing these structural things and looking at the model of the enneagram with its Do Re Mi Fa So La Si Do and two shocks model the two don't seem to synthesise with an experience of being one of eighteen personality types with an instinctual drive. And that is annoying.

The aspect of the the two shocks I can agree with because I have had experience of it having taken place. At the instinctual level. But in general the Do Re Mi Fa So La Si Do and two shocks do not seem to be at work in the normal operation of personalities flux.

So what is the story?

Is there an explanation of how it works at the normal level of personality or egoic minds general operation of being one of eighteen personality types that we are all one of.

Can any one explain how, what I detect, as being eighteen distinct energies, with six flip side coexisting expressions of instinctual expression fits into the Do Re Mi Fa So La Si Do model because I am starting to be leave that I am waiting my time looking at it and be leaving that it is relevant to what is real within the experience of being a normal human being.

I shore would like a down to earth explanation that fits what is real within the emotional the energy of being one of eighteen personality types because that is being sagest ed by the establishment dose not seem to make much sense at all.

I am an INFP 9w1 Sx/Sp/So and I spend most of my time being receptive to others so I can generally see what is real when it comes to energy and persona and this law of seven law of tree model is not explaining what I experience and what I see and understand as being real.

What are other people's thoughts?


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Are you talking about the major musical scale and how it fits in with the enneagram? Because they're...two entirely different things.

Additionally, the major scale is only one version of the scale. The 8 notes in the scale travel what's called an octave, which is notes that range from the low Do to the high Do. (Boy, this is really hard to explain without a piano or my voice. I'm trying to simplify it, but if that doesn't make sense, just look up octaves.)

But there are other notes within the octave that could be played instead. If you have Do starting at C, the notes that you can play within one octave are as follows: C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A, A#/Bb, B, C. Not including the top note (C), that's 12 notes in a chromatic scale. If you write it out in solfége (in a major key), that's "Do Di Re Ri Mi Fa Fi Sol Si La Li Ti Do."

There's another way to write it out in a minor key, but it's not really important and we won't get into it because when you sing it, it sounds the same anyway.

Either way, unrelated to the enneagram and I don't think you can really find a way to make the two connect.

(@ people who are better at music theory than me, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. Either way, it still stands that this has nothing to do with enneagram.)
 

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Lol, I spent months trying to understand it and gave up. I don't even remember how they made it work because doesn't an octave only have 7 notes? I think they had like three Do's? Mess. :p
 

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Lol, I spent months trying to understand it and gave up. I don't even remember how they made it work because doesn't an octave only have 7 notes? I think they had like three Do's? Mess. :p
Is this from an actual thing? Can you tell me what it is? I immediately rejected the notion that a major scale could have anything to do with the enneagram, but if this is a theory someone actually came up with, I want to know more. So I can confirm that it is BS.
 

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I said it is like a connect the dots or paint by number system. It makes no sense to me. It is like these magical balls whizzing around. You drop one here, it picks it up, and moves it to this slot. Another lever moves, and it goes down another chute. But what is moving around, and where? It is like this magical orbit. It does all the work for you. Why not just put a few dollars in a machine and have them spit out your fortune?

It is numerology basically. Functions are hard enough, but with all this enneagram stuff, anybody could be anything. So many combinations. It is like anatomy. You could read all the models in the world, but fall on your face when you cut open the body, and see that goo in there. It is not so clean cut. It is a mess. Enneagram seems lazy to me. An excuse not to get to know other people. But put them in one of those George Jetson tubes and have the system move them around for you.
 

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Is this from an actual thing? Can you tell me what it is? I immediately rejected the notion that a major scale could have anything to do with the enneagram, but if this is a theory someone actually came up with, I want to know more. So I can confirm that it is BS.
It is about the divinity of number, which is a larger Ti idea. And is related to musical theory and philosophy/math. I notice very few Ti and Fe users use Enneagram.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Ok so by reading the above I feel like I am a pigeon sitting in front of a computer thinking about making use of it.

I just don't get it.

Is each of the nine points an octave a different octave with its own eight notes or six notes are Mi Fa So La Si and do they correspond to the six Instinctual energies that all nine types or eighteen sub types utilise if so I think I may all most have some kind of sense of it but don't quite trust trying to resonate or become open to being a wear or awake to it.

And the fourth way, I have heard about it many times over the last 20 years and if it is not to much trouble could some one please give a breath or lengthy explanation of how the nine type energies or eighteen subtype energies operate in unison with the model Do Re Me Fa So La Si Do or link me to a clear fourth way explanation of the structure and its movements because I know that my voice and emotions fluctuate like a musical instrument or like musical note being played but I can not see clearly sense clearly understand clearly feel clearly it's dynamical structural working as a hole or as nine or eighteen or six parts.
@Tater Tot @Pseudonymity
Could you please help me with this difficulty I am facing in endeavouring to understand the concept.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uwcbS9cje_kJust found this via a link, may be some what on track The Enneagram via a topic post by Pseudonymity. http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/17897-enneagram-essence-personality-aspects-according-gurdjieff.html I like the way Pseudonymity communicates, it is the text reasonably easy to follow and understand.

But I be leave I still need some help and still am curious about the six instinctual variants and the six note or octaves.

Cheers

I have been reading and have got to this diagram and am thinking this a reason it is difficult to understand because it is more complex than the simpler diagram I place below the complex one.

http://otrabalhodoscentros.no.sapo.pt/images/04_ilustra/rayofcreation_x3_shockoctave_x1_h1.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Enneagram_as_an_octave.svg/400px-Enneagram_as_an_octave.svg.png


And then there is this diagram as well.



I am wondering how the three diagrams inter connect in an understanding of the two proses of the two laws work as one to manifest like this:






And I am trying to correctly understand this you tube visual moving diagram.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uwcbS9cje_k

The universe is a being with three centers corresponding to our own; their material aspect is comprised of vibration-rates which appear to us as substances.
The universe is the body of God; it is the neutralizing force of the Sun Absolute, the manifestation of the interaction of the positive and negative forces of God. We live in the body of God, are made in the image of God and God's 'fancy' is immortality.



The Holy Equation

The Holy Affirming Prayer

Holy-Affirming,
Holy-Denying,
Holy-Reconciling,
Transubstantiate in me,
For my Being.


Gurdjieff did the world a great service when he wrote Beelzebub's Tales and included in it the Holy Affirming Prayer or as it was called by Paul Beidler, the Holy Equation. Unfortunately, not all of his students were taught this Legominism or even understood and grasped its significance if they were taught it. This is evident by the current state of affairs of division and secrecy in the Gurdjieff Community worldwide.

The Holy Equation could be said to be the Sly Man's Pill, since all exercises in the Work are based on this formula. Let me repeat that - All exercises in the Work are based on this formula. There are no exceptions; if there are, then the exercise is defective. When you understand how this exercise works, you will see that ALL spiritual practices, from ALL traditions, from ALL times, are based on it. When you understand how this exercise works, you will be able to Work on yourself any where, any time, creating your own exercises on the spur of the moment as required by the situation. You will no longer be dependant on the need for a teacher who resides at the top of a bureaucratic heirarchy to dispense exercises based on the degree of conformity and subservience of his pupils. Rather, Groups of Seekers can meet and share equitably their experiences and discoveries using this formula, provided they have a sound knowledge of Gurdjieff's philosophy as presented in his books.

The Holy Equation is based on the Law of Three as formulated by Gurdjieff - "The higher blends with the lower to actualize the middle, which becomes lower for the next higher or higher for the previous lower." This is the fundamental formula for all energy transformation in the universe. It is also the basis for all spiritual transformation which seeks to develop the higher energies required for self-realization and resonant contact with the Source of all energy.

The Holy Equation acts as a shock in the octave of evolution. It is the formula for the 1st and 2nd Conscious Shocks. As we know from studying the Ray of Creation, the shocks are composed of three notes of a Lateral Octave, each note representing one of the forces of the Law of Three. The Holy Equation, being based on the Law of Three, has the structure required for supplying the two Conscious Shocks.

Whenever anybody attempts to practice any spiritual exercise, they will meet with resistance from their Denying Force, which arises from their inherited instincts, drives, desires, laziness and egoism. The persistence to persevere with the exercises against the opposition of the Denying Forces is the Affirming Force of spiritual aspiration. The result of this meeting of Affirming and Denying forces is the Reconciling force. The Reconciling force is the medium of spiritual growth and its production is the primary aim of all spiritual practices. This aim is not always acknowledged or even understood and the secondary effects of the practices may be mistakenly claimed to be the primary purpose of the practice.

Whenever you observe a Denying force, resist it with an Affirmation. An Affirmation may be as simple as counting to ten when you are angry or Sensing your feet. A successful Reconciliation will curb the expression of the Denying force and the energy thus saved will result in a coating on your higher being bodies, in an increase in your Objective Reason of Understanding and a state of Being characterized by an inner calm unaffected by the turbulence of life. You may even see the Clear Light of His Endlessness suffusing the universe with its unobtrusive radiance and may even come to realize the ultimate datum of Objective Reason which is that you are that Light being conscious of itself.


@just for the spark , Or perhaps this is more closer to an explanation.

Mitzi DeWhitt - The Cosmology of Music
Glimpses of Truth - Greek Canon > Mitzi DeWhitt - The Cosmology of Music

 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I said it is like a connect the dots or paint by number system. It makes no sense to me. It is like these magical balls whizzing around. You drop one here, it picks it up, and moves it to this slot. Another lever moves, and it goes down another chute. But what is moving around, and where? It is like this magical orbit. It does all the work for you. Why not just put a few dollars in a machine and have them spit out your fortune?

It is numerology basically. Functions are hard enough, but with all this enneagram stuff, anybody could be anything. So many combinations. It is like anatomy. You could read all the models in the world, but fall on your face when you cut open the body, and see that goo in there. It is not so clean cut. It is a mess. Enneagram seems lazy to me. An excuse not to get to know other people. But put them in one of those George Jetson tubes and have the system move them around for you.
I think that's a bit unfair it is not an excuse to not to get to know people, I socialise just the same but with less tress because I can generally understand the flux of people I know and talk to that I meet not that I alway place the energy of people in the MBTI or eight cognitive functions or enneagram or hole brain thinking model or instincts model, but if I need to in order to understand what people are expressing then it becomes simple to understand the cognition of others.

I won't to understand the deeper flux because I have had contact with it in my formative years so I know the law of three is real because I was able to drift in and out of it before my teenage years, so I won't to understand the mechanics of the function and because I understand many things but this thing of the nine points and the two laws just seems to be something that I can not intellectually get even though I have experienced the enneagram of letting go and like.i said after that being able to make the law of three happen within.

But as my egoic mind has a life of "i" and I seem to be lock in being "i" I seem to have lost the free will or energy to reconnect with making the law of three happen within unless it is for my own self preservation and then manifest automaticity as an apathy instantly lifts and the value of egoic mind is of less value in an authentically threatening situation and the I jumps back in to make life a play of fun and personal interest and entertainment. I am locked in a present trap but I know that within a micro second the trance of the egoic mind can shift and I am connected with in out hectic self free of the egoic I and actualising the flow of having reconciled the law of three within.

So it is important for me. And I thing Ti and Fe's are equely as interested as any of the types who utilise the eight cognitive functions. One of the brightest teacher who facilitated personal development classes successfully was a Fe and her interest in the metaphysical and esoterically phenomenon of Holy Love was almost a health obsession that to this day is endless spoken about when ever I meet with her or am in her social company. I have met Ti's who have strong interest in knowledge that relates directly to gaining and deliberating both metaphysical and esoterically knowledge as to Te's. I my self seek them out because they are wonderful conversationalists and often are very knowledgable and like to talk about and shear there insight and bounce of other to further advance there own understanding blue to an understanding that there own shadow side blocks then from much insight and the mirror of others thoughts and understandings even if they come from the initiation of there own input of conversation.

So if you can explain every a few things of how you see the dots connect that you can see that I can not see I would appreciate it, because sometime it can take a small input that leads to that eureka moment of "I GET IT" mow I understand that is so simple but I could not see it.
@FearAndTrembling







Mitzi DeWhitt - The Cosmology of Music
Glimpses of Truth - Greek Canon > Mitzi DeWhitt - The Cosmology of Music
The question arises. Why study the Canon? The simple answer is that it provides objective evidence that the Work is true. I know - not because I believe it, or because I have faith - but because my reason proves it to be so.

Gurdjieff said that in all there are four states of consciousness possible for man, but that ordinary man (that is, man number one, two, and three) lives in the two lowest states of consciousness only. These are called “sleep” and “ordinary consciousness”.

These two lower states of consciousness correspond to the first two series of the Canon.


The first series: “Sleep”

.285714/.142857 = 2 C to C 2/1

.428571/.285714 = 1.5 C to G 3/2

.571428/.428571 = 1.3333333 G to C 4/3

.714285/.571428 = 1.25 C to E 5/4

.857142/.714285 = 1.2 E to G 6/5

.999999/.857142 = 1.1666667 G to Bb 7/6

1.142857/.9999999 = 1.1428571 Bb to C 8/7 1


The second series, “Ordinary Waking Consciousness”

1.285714/1.142857 = 1,125 C to D 9/8

1.428571/1.285714 = 1.111111 D to E 10/9

1.571428/1.428571 = 1.1 E to F# 11/10

1.714285/1.571428 = 1.090909 F# to G 12/11

1.857142/1.714285 = 1.0833333 G to A 13/12

1.999999/1.857142 = 1.0769231 A to Bb 14/13

2.142857/1.999999 = 1.0714285 Bb to B 15/14 2

The third state is called “self-remembering”, or “self-consciousness”, and although we believe we already possess it, we cannot create it in ourselves by desire alone. This third state is man’s natural birthright; but because of the abnormal conditions in which he lives, man does not have or even know about this third state. If even twenty people decide to make an agreement to awaken, there is a chance to come to the state of self-remembering. But even that is not sufficient. What is needed, as reported in Fragments, is to find a man who is already awake and then hire him to keep them awake, not allow them to fall back to sleep. Without the hire, it is impossible to awaken. Gurdjieff says unequivocally that “this is what must be understood”.

What must be understood is that the “hire” corresponds to the third series whose fractions extend to 22/21. In other words, twenty is not sufficient. For awakening, we need the hire.


The third series, “Self-Remembering”

2.285714/2.142857 = 1.066666 B to C 16/15

2.428571/2.285714 = 1.0625 C to C# 17/16

2.571428/2.428571 = 1.058823 C# to D 18/17

2.714285/2.571428 = 1.0555555 D to D# 19/18

2.857142/2.714285 = 1.0526316 D# to E 20/19

2.999999/2.857142 = 1.05 E to F 21/20

3.142857/2.999999 = 1.047619 F to F# 22/21 = 3

In the analogy of the hackney carriage, the “hire” represents the “higher” human driver (self-consciousness, or ego consciousness) who holds the reins of the horses (ordinary waking consciousness) that direct the cart (unconsciousness). The hire works for itself, for pay; the motives are chiefly mercenary. In traditional teachings, it is the “self”, lower case.

There is a fourth state of consciousness, the objective state, in which man can realize, can see things as they really are. In regards to the hackney carriage, the representative of this fourth state is the “passenger” and owner of the carriage. This is the “Self”, upper case, the real “I”. Gurdjieff says that it is the result of long and difficult work on oneself. The development of this objective consciousness is through self-consciousness - through the lower self, or ego. In other words, no one comes to the Father-I (the Self) but by me (the self).


The fourth series, “Objective Consciousness”

3.285714/3.142857 = 1.0454545 F# to Fx 23/22

3.428571/3.285714 = 1.0434782 Fx to G 24/23

3.571428/3.428571 = 1.0416666 G to G# 25/24

3.714285/3.571428 = 1.04 G# to A 26/25

3.857142/3.714285 = 1.0384615 A to A+ 27/26

3.999999/3.857142 = 1.037037 A+ to Bb 28/27

4.142857/3.999999 = 1.0357145 Bb to B- 29/28 4

The completion of the fourth series has brought us to the alphabetical letters, Bb and B. At this point, the thought is aroused that the word, “Being”, so elusive and difficult to pin down, actually references the completion of the fourth body at the ratio 29/28 of the harmonic series.

FOUR BODIES

In “From the Author”, found at the end of Beelzebub’s Tales, Gurdjieff makes the analogy of the four personalities existing within the common presence of man.

According to the already indicated seriously instituted experimental investigations carried on over many years, or even according merely to the sane and impartial reflection of even every contemporary man, the common presence of every man - particularly of one in whom for some reason or another there arises, so to say, the pretension to be not just an ordinary average man, but what is called ‘one of the intelligentsia’ in the genuine sense of the word - must inevitably consist not only of all the said four fully determined distinct personalities, but each of them must of necessity be exactly correspondingly developed, to ensure that in his general manifestations during the period of his responsible existence all the separate parts should harmonize with each other.

Immediately following this paragraph, Gurdjieff writes that these four formed personalities “are almost exactly comparable to that organization for conveying a passenger, which consists of a carriage, a horse, and a coachman”. As Gurdjieff plainly states, these comparisons and parallels, while they are found in most systems, have forgotten the most important thing: that man is not born with the finer bodies, which can only be artificially cultivated under favorable conditions.

The word personality, when taken literally, is “through (per) sound (sona)”. The sounding structure able to convey the passenger is the harmonic series. In series, the harmonic ratios are what harmonize the four parts - cart-horse-driver-passenger - into one unified system, “unity consciousness”.

Although the harmonic series is considered common knowledge in most present systems of thought, the fact is that what has been forgotten are the harmonics above the usual sixteen, the ones that are most important, and without which man remains in the two lowest states of consciousness only: “sleep” and “ordinary consciousness”. These ‘higher” harmonics must be “artificially cultivated”, that is, they need to be reasoned out by the human mind.

I believe I have shown, in objective terms, exactly how this “artificial cultivation” occurs. I am not asking that others accept what I say merely because I believe it to be so. I am not asking that others take what I say on faith. The indubitable mathematical facts of the matter speak for themselves. One can calculate it for oneself. Reason proves it to be true.
 

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^^^ The last thing I am doing is messing around with numerology systems. I will never get out of them. lol. I already have my own numerology system in my head.

But yes, you get it. It is a personality harmony like a musical harmony. Confucius was big on music too. He was a musician. He compared society to music. Like an orchestra. It must have harmony. I believe somewhat in the larger concept but I don't think it can be defined, it is more metaphysical. It may go back to archetypes. There are gnostic and Greek concepts in there. Just from what you posted. Sounds like Pythagoras.

Having described mathematics as divine, Pythagoras searched for signs of divinity within numbers. With much theorizing he found what he was looking for. With theological certitude he concluded that the number 1 embodied reason, 2 was female, 3 was male, 5 (2+3) was marriage, and 6 (marriage plus 1) was creation. The number 4 (the first number greater than 1 that can be the square of any two numbers) he concluded contained the divinity of justice.


But why we relate to this music, we do not know. We just know the math.

"We were fluttering, wandering, longing creatures a thousand thousand years before the sea and the wind in the forest gave us words.
Now how can we express the ancient of days in us with only the sounds of our yesterdays?"

-Gibran

What I am saying is, the numbers are not the music. How many songwriters can write beautiful songs and not read musical notation. It isn't in the numbers.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I understand what you are saying but the expression of language has its tones of emotional expression. And there can be a flow between points both around the circle and between the lines and also between the six instinctual variants.

I understand most things but this for me is the one thing that I can not get my head around and I want to get I touch with the organic flow that can be naturally expressed.

I am curious what is your interest what do you come hear to discover and celebrate at the personality cafe?
 

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I understand what you are saying but the expression of language has its tones of emotional expression. And there can be a flow between points both around the circle and between the lines and also between the six instinctual variants.

I understand most things but this for me is the one thing that I can not get my head around and I want to get I touch with the organic flow that can be naturally expressed.

I am curious what is your interest what do you come hear to discover and celebrate at the personality cafe?


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It is like the Jungian and Freudian model of mind. Which is essentially based on conservation of energy. Negative energy is never destroyed for example, it is just redirected.



They basically thought that neurosis was because of "emotionally colored" reminiscences. They see the mind as somewhat of an energy system. Bad things create knots in that system. So when a delicate subject is touched, the energy cannot flow openly through all paths. It is knotted. It is scared of that tunnel, so it closes it. Detour. So it has to redirect itself elsewhere. Anxiety is a form of inner projection. Your mind represses it, and sends it to your body. The energy has to go somewhere. It is like water. It can flow or crash. It can stagnate. It can freeze. Boil. Evaporate.

“You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Become like water my friend.”


-Bruce Lee

The system is Ti projection gone mad. Every person has different energies, because they have different experiences. Those numbers are placeholders for real people. That is why I said it is a lazy way to type. People aren't numbers. They are unique experiences that no number can quantify. This could apply to typing in general, but it is the most obvious in enneagram.

Jung and Freud would never use this stuff. They don't take out a star chart and then go from there. They actually talk to the person to figure out where energies are imbalanced.
 

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I'm am confused by the hole Do Si La Sol Fa Mi Re or Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Si Do thing.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the Enneagram types. In fact, the Enneagram symbol has very little to do with the types. The two have not been used together for thousands of years as much of the hype would have you believe. Sometime in the 1950's and 1960's Ichazo placed some ego fixations on the Enneagram symbol that Gurdjieff used in a very different way. The Gurdjieffians originally questioned that use but everybody began ignoring that and believing the hype once the Enneagram personality types became popularized. I guess the winners do get to rewrite history.

If you want to explore types with the Gurdjieff symbol, the planetary or essence types attempt to use the Enneagram symbol as Gurdjieff intended (there was a thread about it not long ago that you can find or perhaps someone can point you to if you're interested). They too have nothing to do with the personality types.
 

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It has absolutely nothing to do with the Enneagram types. In fact, the Enneagram symbol has very little to do with the types. The two have not been used together for thousands of years as much of the hype would have you believe. Sometime in the 1950's and 1960's Ichazo placed some ego fixations on the Enneagram symbol that Gurdjieff used in a very different way. The Gurdjieffians originally questioned that use but everybody began ignoring that and believing the hype once the Enneagram personality types became popularized. I guess the winners do get to rewrite history.

If you want to explore types with the Gurdjieff symbol, the planetary or essence types attempt to use the Enneagram symbol as Gurdjieff intended (there was a thread about it not long ago that you can find or perhaps someone can point you to if you're interested). They too have nothing to do with the personality types.
It does have to do with types. The underlying concept. Which is the body is an energy system that becomes imbalanced, and things like music and the right words heal it. That is basically Psychoanalysis in a different form. Freud would appeal to neurological processes to explain it, as he was a neurologist, but it is the same principle. Religion is obviously based on this concept too.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Conservation of energy, tension. I don't know much about the Freudian model other than he had some good ideas and some strange ideas that remind me of the shadow side of the SP superego energy that is rejective of the other two thirds and rebels in thought.

Jungian MBTI the: I E S N T F is interesting and the P and J. I have not read his work but have heard some about his concepts from conversations. some of it is a bit over done but it has its place.

Negative energy is never destroyed it is just redirected is both true and incorrect and yes it can redirect from focus to focus, the nature of entropy is synonymous with being human but once understood as an energy for what it's and that it part of a balance it can be conches ly managed but you you are correct it is with out for life and we swing from light to dark and from dark to light.

As for neurosis its flip side is freedom and yes we can close and limit the lines of movement within the selfs own personalities expression, repression, I have for some time known that the point of freedom/ integration is also the point of neurosis. It's amazing to see it and witness it a dyad between the types core point energy and the point of integration energy and the sudo alliance of false witness the self expresses with the point of stress or disintegration as if it was an instinctive triad, an internal conversation, an internal affirmation of correctness affirming the correctness of action. It must be aligned with the level of delusion and compulsion but the self in this state can hold the position of imbalance at the level of As if the three components had a placing with the three parts ( Point of Neurosis - Delusion) ( The Point of Disintegration - Compulsion) and the level of Over Compensation and Interpersonal Control is aligned with the core energy of type, as if it was the point nine of the inner triangle and delusion was point three of the inner triangle and compulsion was point six of the inner triangle. The team work triangle (258) and the personal triangle (147) can be order in order to not experience gilt ( the emotion of I have done wrong) and shame (the emotion of I Am Wrong). By utilising the inner (369) triangle the self can control not experiencing these to states or emotions. It's interesting.

I don't know what Jungian and Freudian model thinks about this but that is what I think in my model of the MBTI and enneagram model.

That how I see the energies being directed (going some where) that are manipulated via a natural ability that the self is capable of instinctively knowing when that level is reached and active.

Interesting.

Cheers and I hope that was in line with what you where hoping to be revealed to in drafting your last reply @FearAndTrembling

Love is the affirmation of our own goodness, the dark is simple a slower frequency of the light and there is nought but light. Hate as an example is simply twisted love. Holy Love is the base in the logic of the statement.

So as you maybe thinking.. Yes there is three instinctive triangles and it seems that triangle has three states in operation positive neutral and negative.

I know the two states of neutral I spend most of my focus in that state of the third triangle and I have spent much time in that triangle in the negative state as neurotic ( sadly I must shear, in my younger years) but it is the third state the positive state of maki nine the Law Of Three happen within ( within or vier that triangle) is what interests me the most.

Hence my interest in the "Do Ri Mi Fa So La Si Do".
 

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Conservation of energy, tension. I don't know much about the Freudian model other than he had some good ideas and some strange ideas that remind me of the shadow side of the SP superego energy that is rejective of the other two thirds and rebels in thought.

Jungian MBTI the: I E S N T F is interesting and the P and J. I have not read his work but have heard some about his concepts from conversations. some of it is a bit over done but it has its place.

Negative energy is never destroyed it is just redirected is both true and incorrect and yes it can redirect from focus to focus, the nature of entropy is synonymous with being human but once understood as an energy for what it's and that it part of a balance it can be conches ly managed but you you are correct it is with out for life and we swing from light to dark and from dark to light.

As for neurosis its flip side is freedom and yes we can close and limit the lines of movement within the selfs own personalities expression, repression, I have for some time known that the point of freedom/ integration is also the point of neurosis. It's amazing to see it and witness it a dyad between the types core point energy and the point of integration energy and the sudo alliance of false witness the self expresses with the point of stress or disintegration as if it was an instinctive triad, an internal conversation, an internal affirmation of correctness affirming the correctness of action. It must be aligned with the level of delusion and compulsion but the self in this state can hold the position of imbalance at the level of As if the three components had a placing with the three parts ( Point of Neurosis - Delusion) ( The Point of Disintegration - Compulsion) and the level of Over Compensation and Interpersonal Control is aligned with the core energy of type, as if it was the point nine of the inner triangle and delusion was point three of the inner triangle and compulsion was point six of the inner triangle. The team work triangle (258) and the personal triangle (147) can be order in order to not experience gilt ( the emotion of I have done wrong) and shame (the emotion of I Am Wrong). By utilising the inner (369) triangle the self can control not experiencing these to states or emotions. It's interesting.

I don't know what Jungian and Freudian model thinks about this but that is what I think in my model of the MBTI and enneagram model.

That how I see the energies being directed (going some where) that are manipulated via a natural ability that the self is capable of instinctively knowing when that level is reached and active.

Interesting.

Cheers and I hope that was in line with what you where hoping to be revealed to in drafting your last reply @FearAndTrembling

Love is the affirmation of our own goodness, the dark is simple a slower frequency of the light and there is nought but light. Hate as an example is simply twisted love. Holy Love is the base in the logic of the statement.
We make our own music. The music we complain about is a symbol of who we are. Everything is. lol. It is like Einstein said, God does not play dice. That path you are on, is not an accident. And it doesn't even have to be anything supernatural. It is like you end up in California one day, and are like well how did I get here? Then you retrace your steps. And realized because that is the only place you were headed. There is a path. You just don't magically appear in places. You evolve. Or devolve there.

Props to Talking Heads for getting their first.

And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself
Well...How did I get here?

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself
How do I work this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...

Water dissolving...and water removing
There is water at the bottom of the ocean
Under the water, carry the water at the bottom of the ocean
Remove the water at the bottom of the ocean

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
Into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones
There is water underground

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
And you may ask yourself
Where does that highway go to?
And you may ask yourself
Am I right?...Am I wrong?
And you may say to yourself yourself
My God!...What have I done?!

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
Into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones
There is water underground

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Look where my hand was
Time isn't holding us
Time isn't after us
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Yeah, the twister comes
Here comes the twister
Same as it ever was...

 
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It does have to do with types. The underlying concept. Which is the body is an energy system that becomes imbalanced, and things like music and the right words heal it. That is basically Psychoanalysis in a different form. Freud would appeal to neurological processes to explain it, as he was a neurologist, but it is the same principle. Religion is obviously based on this concept too.
My point was the Gurdjieff use of the Enneagram has nothing to do with how the personality types use it. It doesn't mean you couldn't attempt to apply the Gurdjieff use, but that would be something outside the current system of Enneagram personality types as it's currently taught and used.

Some time ago, I did attempt to apply the Gurdjieff use of the symbol to the types. I found it worked best by using the Enneagram symbol to understand an individual's mixture of the types rather than the system as a whole. In other words, I applied the symbol to understand the psychological process of the individual (movement around the circle) and the dynamics between the types at work in that process (inner lines). Note that the arrangement of the types were different for each individual (each individual had a unique Enneagram).
 

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Ok so by reading the above I feel like I am a pigeon sitting in front of a computer thinking about making use of it.

I just don't get it.

Is each of the nine points an octave a different octave with its own eight notes or six notes are Mi Fa So La Si and do they correspond to the six Instinctual energies that all nine types or eighteen sub types utilise if so I think I may all most have some kind of sense of it but don't quite trust trying to resonate or become open to being a wear or awake to it.

And the fourth way, I have heard about it many times over the last 20 years and if it is not to much trouble could some one please give a breath or lengthy explanation of how the nine type energies or eighteen subtype energies operate in unison with the model Do Re Me Fa So La Si Do or link me to a clear fourth way explanation of the structure and its movements because I know that my voice and emotions fluctuate like a musical instrument or like musical note being played but I can not see clearly sense clearly understand clearly feel clearly it's dynamical structural working as a hole or as nine or eighteen or six parts.
@Tater Tot @Pseudonymity
Could you please help me with this difficulty I am facing in endeavouring to understand the concept.
To be honest, I have no idea how to comprehend any of it. I know it has something to do with the the integration/disintegration lines, (1428571) but I don't see how it manifests in the enneagram in any other way. I stopped studying it because it seemed kinda cult-ish to me.
 
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