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Discussion Starter #1
I'm an INTP male. I recently became single after a relationship of 10 years. This, largely because my girlfriend was an ESFJ and it was just too hard to compromise between both of our needs. I decided I needed to get some women from my area with a more compatible personality type. I don't really feel ready for a relationship yet, as I'm still recovering from the breakup, but I do feel the need to already start developing some new friendships.

Through a Facebook group, I got in contact with an INFJ female. I initiated a chat with her, and I was quite pleasantly surprised by how natural the conversation went and how casual it felt. I was my totally quirky INTP self, mixing the more personal topics with ramblings about all kinds of Ti-stuff many people would be turned off by, especially in a casual conversation with someone they don't know. But she actually seemed to genuinely enjoy my ramblings, and I felt like there was potential for a deeper connection there. I can't tell if friendship of more just yet, but there's definitely something there.

I did most of the talking during our interaction, though. When I asked her about it, she told me she prefered to listen rather than talk. Is this typical for INTFs when they meet a new person? And does this change in time, or do they stay listeners rather than talkers when they get to know someone better? Also, in the latter case, how can you get to really know what makes an INFJ tick, when they take a more passive approach during a conversation?

She did share some very personal stuff, though, so it doesn't seem a matter of not wanting to share details about her life. It seems to me that her preference for listening instead of talking is more a matter of her being shy and of her being afraid that others will think she's weird or something. Or maybe she's just afraid that others won't be interested? Also, I get the impression that she isn't used to many other INxx people in her life, at least not at a more than superficial level, as she seems to be lacking intellectual discourse in her life and she kind of feels like an "outsider".

Anyway, our first ever interaction today lasted for 4 hours, which is definitely not something that's common for me for a first chat with a total stranger, and it seems just as uncommon for her. I'm very much looking forward to a second interaction, and I'd love to get some tips on what I might want to pay attention to when trying to get to know an INFJ female better, as an INTP, so I don't screw up the next time.
 

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I have an INTP friend & I enjoy our conversations very much. :giggle: Conversations with INTP are fun because feelings can be removed a bit. Meaning we can talk about sensitive topics & really dig into them without worrying about pushing the other person away. It takes me a bit to get the INTP to recognize I'm a safe place to have these conversations with. I find my INTP friend apologizing all the time because he's worried he's going to hurt my feelings, and actually it makes me feel bad for him. He thinks he's being mean & it makes me giggle a bit because I don't think he is, yet it makes me realize how much he has to pull himself back. Others around us think we're fighting & his ESFP wife gets worried & steps in telling him to be nicer, meanwhile I'm in heaven & never want the discourse to end. 馃槃 I have to say 5 million times, "No, no it's ok! I promise it's ok!" All the while I feel like I'm the one that's being mean. Passion over a topic often seems to get misinterpreted as anger.

Yes, I'm sure she just enjoys hearing what you have to say. I enjoy ramblings. Observing. Hearing what other people think. If shes's taking on a more passive role in conversation, chances are she's just processing & internally analyzing the things that you are saying. She could also just be shy, yes. :)

From my POV: Sharing personal stuff is no big deal to me. That said, I try not to talk about myself much. It feels selfish & uncomfortable, so that may explain some of her passiveness as well. I also tend to test people in conversation, which is not fair. I will toss out a small mention of something that's important or interesting to me, and if the other person goes with it & seems interested I will open right up & tend to not shut my stupid mouth. However if there isn't much response, I drop it & turn the focus back to what their interests are. Go into listening mode. I also gather those moments like a squirrel preparing for winter & keep note over time how much interest you have in topics that interest me. If there's not much shared interest, I tend to pull back from the relationship a bit & not put as much effort in.

What makes INFJ tick: easy- as mention above, if they don't shut up then you've hit on something that is important to them or they find interesting. Hopefully this happens, and if it does, hopefully it's something you find interesting too. Because believe me, she's paying attention to that.

One final thing. I am constantly worried about irritating people. (The ones I really care about. Others I don't really care if I'm irritating 馃槵馃檭) I hardly ever initiate conversation because most people just don't genuinely interest me. For those I do find interesting, I will put in the effort. But I'm like a big stupid baby with it. I worry constantly that the other person is busy and my friendship is a burden to them. I'm not sure how to explain it. So I can appear disinterested or passive, when in fact it's the opposite. I'm worried about being annoying. It really doesn't make sense. Anyway, just something to keep in mind down the road. Good luck, and may you have many fullfilling & enjoyable conversations in your future! 馃槉
 

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Years ago I broke up with ESFJ like you and for somewhat similar reasons - just too different thinking patterns (I'm enfp male) and communication styles which didn't match well. I've been with INFJ now for more than 6 years and can tell only good about such combination.

At the beginning it was similar to what you described - me talking more and she being more on listening side. But after some time when INFJ opened up, it did somewhat change. Best part of it so far has been that strong N / N personalities combination has never made us run out of interesting discussion topics. And you can discuss absolutely ANYTHING, be it as abstract as possible :) It's incredible and first time in my lifetime that somebody is able to absorb and understand sh*loads of Ne thoughts.

Btw it was the same for me as for you - already during first dates we had interesting discussions for hours. As I'm not into smalltalks at all, it felt so free and easy compared to some totally different persons I've met before.

With ESFJ there were quite limited topics which I could touch as more abstract thoughts were out of interest for her which became frustrating for me over time. The INTPs I know are also abstract thinkers and brainstormers and I match well with them so it most likely won't be any problem for you as well to keep in touch with INFJ :) Also I like those logic-heavy thinking patterns and very much less Fe compared to Fe doms.

Just be yourself and things should work quite smoothly and easily - it only takes time for INFJ to open up but you might be positively surprised how much they have left for you to be revealed over time :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I have an INTP friend & I enjoy our conversations very much. :giggle: Conversations with INTP are fun because feelings can be removed a bit. Meaning we can talk about sensitive topics & really dig into them without worrying about pushing the other person away.
So you're saying you like the idea of having a discussion partner where you don't need to worry about hurting people's feelings, and that this gives to a sense of freedom or safety to openly share your thoughts and feelings?

Interesting...

It takes me a bit to get the INTP to recognize I'm a safe place to have these conversations with. I find my INTP friend apologizing all the time because he's worried he's going to hurt my feelings, and actually it makes me feel bad for him.
I'm not like that... at least with people who are in my inner circle or people I want in my inner circle.

I sometimes test people by throwing sensitive topics at them and check how they respond. If they can handle it, I take it a step further. And I repeat the process until I get an idea of where they draw the line with respect to sensitive topics.

And no, as an INTP, I'm not the kind of person to play games with others. And I don't particularly like testing people like that without making them aware of it. However, strategies like this tell me in no time if a person is worth investing my time and energy in, which in turn allows me to more easily find people I'm compatible with, as an open mind with little to no topics that are taboo is pretty essential to me, both for friendship and love. And for a noble goal like that, I guess a little test won't hurt a fly, although I do kinda feel dirty just mentioning it.

Passion over a topic often seems to get misinterpreted as anger.
When I discuss with a fellow INTP, an INFP or an ENTP, discussions can get pretty passionate, and we're kind of able to tell the difference between passion and anger. But I've learned from experience that people with other personality types may feel personally attacked when I'm just being passionate.

I suppose that's what you mean? if so, I'd guess it's something that you can learn to distinguish as you know each other better.

Yes, I'm sure she just enjoys hearing what you have to say. I enjoy ramblings. Observing. Hearing what other people think.
Probably. But that's both a good and a bad thing.

I'm sure INFJs have things they want to talk about as well, and if the INTP is always leading the discussion, the INFJ may never feel comfortable to change the topic, which in turn may make her uncomfortable and see the INTP as selfish.

This is a kind of dynamic I really want to avoid, after bad experiences with it in a previous relationship with an ESFJ.

If shes's taking on a more passive role in conversation, chances are she's just processing & internally analyzing the things that you are saying. She could also just be shy, yes. :)
Actually, this improved during our second interaction. While this is of course hard to measure, I do get the impression that she was less passive and more interactive during the second one, that she was already starting to feel comfortable to be more of a discussion partner rather than a listener.

From my POV: Sharing personal stuff is no big deal to me. That said, I try not to talk about myself much. It feels selfish & uncomfortable, so that may explain some of her passiveness as well.
As an INTP, I find it hard to distinguish talking about personal stuff and talking about yourself.

Where do you draw the line? Where does it start to feel selfish and uncomfortable?

I also tend to test people in conversation, which is not fair.
As I said, I do that as well. And I think that pretty much everyone does that, one way or another.

I'd love to say that INTPs, authentic as we are, never test people like that. But even we sometimes need a trick up our sleeves to get a clearer view on the person in front of us, although I'm no more proud of it than you do...

I will toss out a small mention of something that's important or interesting to me, and if the other person goes with it & seems interested I will open right up & tend to not shut my stupid mouth. However if there isn't much response, I drop it & turn the focus back to what their interests are. Go into listening mode.
That's good to know... very good to know, actually.

Definitely something to pay attention to! I kind of already was, but it's good to know the possible consequences if I get to slack in this area.

What makes INFJ tick: easy- as mention above, if they don't shut up then you've hit on something that is important to them or they find interesting. Hopefully this happens, and if it does, hopefully it's something you find interesting too. Because believe me, she's paying attention to that.
Hmmm... So, basically, if I hit the right topics, I will know by her kind of rambling the same way I do when I'm very enthousiastic about something?

Is that what you're saying?

One final thing. I am constantly worried about irritating people. (The ones I really care about. Others I don't really care if I'm irritating 馃槵馃檭)
Why?

I mean... Shouldn't the people in your inner circle be people you don't need to be worry about?

I worry with colleagues or other people I know superficially that I'll say something stupid. But with friends, I typically drop my filters and I'm kind of just myself.

I hardly ever initiate conversation because most people just don't genuinely interest me. For those I do find interesting, I will put in the effort.
Yeaah...

That's something you guys & gals definitely share with INTPs.

But I'm like a big stupid baby with it. I worry constantly that the other person is busy and my friendship is a burden to them. I'm not sure how to explain it. So I can appear disinterested or passive, when in fact it's the opposite. I'm worried about being annoying. It really doesn't make sense.
It does make sense. This is what you do when you're insecure. You are uncertain of the impact you have on people, so you worry about the impression you leave and put up an act of hold back in several ways because of it.

Just don't ever do that with an INTP. If you feel insecure about something, just ask their feedback. The INTP is likely to respond honestly, maybe even bluntly. This might hurt if you do in fact have a reason to be insecure, but most likely the INTP will give you confirmation that everything is fine and you have nothing to worry about.

One thing I absolutely love about this INFJ is that she gives me the feeling that I can be just myself. I assume the dynamic between you and INTPs is similar, in which case the changes of them judging you for just being your quirky self are very very slim.

Anyway, just something to keep in mind down the road. Good luck, and may you have many fullfilling & enjoyable conversations in your future! 馃槉
I definitely appreciate your input and will put it to good use in the near future.

Anyway, I encourage you to try to be more comfident with people in your inner circle and to ask them explicitly if you're afraid that you bother them in any way whatsoever. Especially in the case of an INTP, I can't imagine how this can backfire on you. In fact, the INTP is likely to appreciate the directness of your question and like you (even) more because of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Years ago I broke up with ESFJ like you and for somewhat similar reasons - just too different thinking patterns (I'm enfp male) and communication styles which didn't match well. I've been with INFJ now for more than 6 years and can tell only good about such combination.
Interesting...

At the beginning it was similar to what you described - me talking more and she being more on listening side. But after some time when INFJ opened up, it did somewhat change.
Mine is already slowly starting to open up...

Best part of it so far has been that strong N / N personalities combination has never made us run out of interesting discussion topics. And you can discuss absolutely ANYTHING, be it as abstract as possible :)
That's what I noticed as well. She did seem interested in what I had to say, regardless of which direction I took it.

It's incredible and first time in my lifetime that somebody is able to absorb and understand sh*loads of Ne thoughts.
I've had many similar conversations with eg. my male INFP best friend and (to a lesser degree) with my female INTP friend, but the instant connection I had with my INFJ is definitely unique for me as well.

Btw it was the same for me as for you - already during first dates we had interesting discussions for hours. As I'm not into smalltalks at all, it felt so free and easy compared to some totally different persons I've met before.
Again, it's not really that different for me, if I compare with friends I've known for years.

But for a person I just met? That's definitely unprecedented for me as well!

With ESFJ there were quite limited topics which I could touch as more abstract thoughts were out of interest for her which became frustrating for me over time. The INTPs I know are also abstract thinkers and brainstormers and I match well with them so it most likely won't be any problem for you as well to keep in touch with INFJ :) Also I like those logic-heavy thinking patterns and very much less Fe compared to Fe doms.
My ESFJ ex and I typically discussed human nature, where she tackled it from her subjective personal angle and I tackled if from a more abstract and objective angle. We did often meet each other at the intersection between both, which made interesting conversations. But if a topic lacked a "human" angle, it was very hard to get her interest at all!

Just be yourself and things should work quite smoothly and easily - it only takes time for INFJ to open up but you might be positively surprised how much they have left for you to be revealed over time :)
Being myself is what I've done so far, and the results are pretty damn great. We even ended up flirting a little bit, which is something I rarely ever do with any woman because it's not something that usually comes naturally to me. But in this case, I saw an opening, she did reciprocate, and it all felt just right.
 

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So you're saying you like the idea of having a discussion partner where you don't need to worry about hurting people's feelings, and that this gives to a sense of freedom or safety to openly share your thoughts and feelings?

Yes, I do. I am always worrying about other's feelings & heavily analyzing in my head how to best word things. It's nice to be able to turn that off & not worry.

I'm not sure how old you or this INFJ are, so I will say this- I was not good at this before I got into my 30's. Through age & strong friendships with a few T's, I've learned a lot about communication & toning down my sensitivities. I'm much more open-minded & understanding than I was when I was younger. There is no way I could handle some of the conversations I have now 5-10 years ago. I was way too sensitive & misinterpreted a lot. I still am & still do, just it's improved a good amount. So it's something to be aware of & tread lightly with. She is still a F. Try as we might, that sensitive button is always engaged.



I'm not like that... at least with people who are in my inner circle or people I want in my inner circle.

I sometimes test people by throwing sensitive topics at them and check how they respond. If they can handle it, I take it a step further. And I repeat the process until I get an idea of where they draw the line with respect to sensitive topics.

And no, as an INTP, I'm not the kind of person to play games with others. And I don't particularly like testing people like that without making them aware of it. However, strategies like this tell me in no time if a person is worth investing my time and energy in, which in turn allows me to more easily find people I'm compatible with, as an open mind with little to no topics that are taboo is pretty essential to me, both for friendship and love. And for a noble goal like that, I guess a little test won't hurt a fly, although I do kinda feel dirty just mentioning it.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. It's not that he apologizes so much as often starts saying something than stops. Followed with "No I'm not going to say it, it's going to hurt you."

In this case, testing is a good thing. It's how you get a gauge on what people can handle. I don't think it's playing games. It's trying to understand how another person ticks. You're fine. :)






When I discuss with a fellow INTP, an INFP or an ENTP, discussions can get pretty passionate, and we're kind of able to tell the difference between passion and anger. But I've learned from experience that people with other personality types may feel personally attacked when I'm just being passionate.

I suppose that's what you mean? if so, I'd guess it's something that you can learn to distinguish as you know each other better.
Yes, that's what I mean. I really enjoy observing T's debate. Or just tough people in general, I guess. It's interesting.



Probably. But that's both a good and a bad thing.

I'm sure INFJs have things they want to talk about as well, and if the INTP is always leading the discussion, the INFJ may never feel comfortable to change the topic, which in turn may make her uncomfortable and see the INTP as selfish.

This is a kind of dynamic I really want to avoid, after bad experiences with it in a previous relationship with an ESFJ.
Nah, I don't think we're usually wallflowers with the observing. If I want to say something & I think it adds value to to the conversation, I'll say it. This will happen more & more as you get to know each other. Once she knows you better & is a bit more comfortable, the back & forth/give & take in a conversation is just natural.

Do you ever throw in questions to the person you're having a convesation with? Throwing in a question here or there or showing you are curious about the other person's thoughts speaks volumes in my book. And again, as mentioned, if I'm being overly quiet it usually just means I'm processing & analyzing. There's so much to learn about another person by listening. Another possibility for quietness could be other things on the mind. <- Actually, come to think about it, that happens to me often.





Actually, this improved during our second interaction. While this is of course hard to measure, I do get the impression that she was less passive and more interactive during the second one, that she was already starting to feel comfortable to be more of a discussion partner rather than a listener.
Good! :)



As an INTP, I find it hard to distinguish talking about personal stuff and talking about yourself.

Where do you draw the line? Where does it start to feel selfish and uncomfortable?
Yeah, I don't know. I talk about the personal stuff when it's applicable to the topic at hand. I wouldn't talk about it otherwise.




As I said, I do that as well. And I think that pretty much everyone does that, one way or another.

I'd love to say that INTPs, authentic as we are, never test people like that. But even we sometimes need a trick up our sleeves to get a clearer view on the person in front of us, although I'm no more proud of it than you do...
Right, I think it's just a natural tool used to help figure people out.



That's good to know... very good to know, actually.

Definitely something to pay attention to! I kind of already was, but it's good to know the possible consequences if I get to slack in this area.
Yes, it's a big one for us I think. :)



Hmmm... So, basically, if I hit the right topics, I will know by her kind of rambling the same way I do when I'm very enthousiastic about something?

Is that what you're saying?
Absolutely. Like anyone else, we get super excited about topics of interest & don't shut the heck up. I will become so engrossed & suddenly realize how much I'm talking & stop & apologize. Part of that is probably a bit of a test too, if I'm being honest.馃槪 Not intended, but believe you me, I am paying very close attention to how you respond. If you are ok with it & even ~ bE sTiLl My HeArT~ encourage it, I will feel so safe & at home having conversations with you. If I sense you weren't interested in the conversation or you change the topic at that point, I will pull waaayyyy back & become less engaged. I will feel foolish for opening up. I am so, so senstive to people's reactions when I open up. Disgustingly sensitive to it. I will also make note that this topic, that really insterests me, does not interest you. These are things I dislike about myself & am working on improving. Hopefullly this is just a me thing & not an INFJ thing & your friend isn't such a bozo.



Why?

I mean... Shouldn't the people in your inner circle be people you don't need to be worry about?

I worry with colleagues or other people I know superficially that I'll say something stupid. But with friends, I typically drop my filters and I'm kind of just myself.
I don't know. It seems engrained in me. I always worry my friendship is a burden in some way. I'm not quite sure how to explain it. It's not a confidence thing. It's just a you've-got-better-things-to-do-than-spend-your-time-talking-to-me thing. Maybe it's because it's how I feel majority of the time. 馃槵 Because there are so few people I actually want to talk to. I'm not explaining this well. Again, this is only the case with people I reeeally care about. With others, I could not care less.



Yeaah...

That's something you guys & gals definitely share with INTPs.
It's a tough one.



It does make sense. This is what you do when you're insecure. You are uncertain of the impact you have on people, so you worry about the impression you leave and put up an act of hold back in several ways because of it.

Just don't ever do that with an INTP. If you feel insecure about something, just ask their feedback. The INTP is likely to respond honestly, maybe even bluntly. This might hurt if you do in fact have a reason to be insecure, but most likely the INTP will give you confirmation that everything is fine and you have nothing to worry about.

One thing I absolutely love about this INFJ is that she gives me the feeling that I can be just myself. I assume the dynamic between you and INTPs is similar, in which case the changes of them judging you for just being your quirky self are very very slim.
Good! I'm so happy to hear she makes you feel like you can be yourself! That is the best feeling & a treasure when it's found in another person.

Yeah, INTP friend & I know each other well enough now. It's apretty great to find people you can be yourself with & know that no matter what is said, you're both able to move on & continue being friends the same as always.



I definitely appreciate your input and will put it to good use in the near future.

Anyway, I encourage you to try to be more comfident with people in your inner circle and to ask them explicitly if you're afraid that you bother them in any way whatsoever. Especially in the case of an INTP, I can't imagine how this can backfire on you. In fact, the INTP is likely to appreciate the directness of your question and like you (even) more because of it.
Right, directness has taken practice but I'm getting better. I appreciate when others are direct so I push myself to step outside my comfort zone & do the same. :)

Best wishes on your new friendship & hopefully it continues to grow & be a huge blessing for you both! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Yes, I do. I am always worrying about other's feelings & heavily analyzing in my head how to best word things. It's nice to be able to turn that off & not worry.
I always worry about ranting about random philoophical meanderings that no one is actually interested in;

She seems genuinely interested. And the feeling I get from that is very similar to yours.

Basically, the right INTP and the right INFJ seem to give each other the feeling that they can just be themselves without having to worry they say something stupid, boring or insensitive. And that's a breath of fresh air for both, as that's hard to find elsewhere for both of 'em...

I'm not sure how old you or this INFJ are, so I will say this- I was not good at this before I got into my 30's.
Both of us are 38!

I was way too sensitive & misinterpreted a lot. I still am & still do, just it's improved a good amount. So it's something to be aware of & tread lightly with. She is still a F. Try as we might, that sensitive button is always engaged.
Having lived with an ESFJ for 10 years, I do think I know most of the triggers and warning signs.

Still, thanks for the warning. I'll definitely keep this in mind!

I really enjoy observing T's debate. Or just tough people in general, I guess. It's interesting.
It's not that we're tougher than you guys. We're just sensitive to different things!

This will happen more & more as you get to know each other. Once she knows you better & is a bit more comfortable, the back & forth/give & take in a conversation is just natural.
We've been talking for 20 total now. It already feels pretty natural.

It feels so natural that both of us felt like it was time to plan a date.

We see each other for the first time IRL next Sunday!

Do you ever throw in questions to the person you're having a convesation with? Throwing in a question here or there or showing you are curious about the other person's thoughts speaks volumes in my book.
When I'm genuinely interested in a person, I ask questions.

It's only when I feel I already know a person well enough that I don't ask questions, because for an INTP asking questions is about getting information. For you guys, there's an emotional component to it, but for us it's just a matter of getting the info we want.

And if we like you, we want to know you; Thus, we ask questions, so we can achieve that!

Another possibility for quietness could be other things on the mind. <- Actually, come to think about it, that happens to me often.
This reminds me of a classic meme :

866024


Yeah, I don't know. I talk about the personal stuff when it's applicable to the topic at hand. I wouldn't talk about it otherwise.
Same here, I guess...

Absolutely. Like anyone else, we get super excited about topics of interest & don't shut the heck up. I will become so engrossed & suddenly realize how much I'm talking & stop & apologize. Part of that is probably a bit of a test too, if I'm being honest.馃槪 Not intended, but believe you me, I am paying very close attention to how you respond. If you are ok with it & even bE sTiLl My HeArT encourage it, I will feel so safe & at home having conversations with you. If I sense you weren't interested in the conversation or you change the topic at that point, I will pull waaayyyy back & become less engaged.
This is something INFJs & INTPs share.

I can ramble and ramble and ramble on and only then realize that no one is listening. Next time, I'll take a distance. Next time, I'll be more careful with what I say, who I say it to and for how long.

I don't know. It seems engrained in me. I always worry my friendship is a burden in some way. I'm not quite sure how to explain it. It's not a confidence thing. It's just a you've-got-better-things-to-do-than-spend-your-time-talking-to-me thing. Maybe it's because it's how I feel majority of the time. 馃槵 Because there are so few people I actually want to talk to. I'm not explaining this well.
Actually, you are explaining it pretty well.

I guess it's kind of what I'm like when I'm attracted to a woman. Then I REALLY REALLY want her to like me, so I'm extra careful and extra insecure.

When talking with a random guy, I couldn't care less if they like me, because the stakes are much lower!

Yeah, INTP friend & I know each other well enough now. It's apretty great to find people you can be yourself with & know that no matter what is said, you're both able to move on & continue being friends the same as always.
Not the same as always, I'd say, but enriched by the experience.

When I have these conversations with friends, I dont want to feel the same as always. I feel like I came out of it enriched one way or another... enriched by a connection I don't find with other people!

Best wishes on your new friendship & hopefully it continues to grow & be a huge blessing for you both! :)
Thanks!

Looking forward ot my date next Sunday. Personally, I don't think this is going to stay a friendship for long. Unless meeting each other in real life totally backfires, I think this will grow beyond friendship real fast!
 

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I always worry about ranting about random philoophical meanderings that no one is actually interested in;

This is why it's good to be able to laugh at yourself. My experience with that has been that others often find it endearing at least. That you're passionate about something. They may not be interested in it, but usually people appreciate that you are fascinated by something. So it doesn't really bother me if others aren't interested. You just make note & keep plugging away until you find someone that is.

She seems genuinely interested. And the feeling I get from that is very similar to yours.

Basically, the right INTP and the right INFJ seem to give each other the feeling that they can just be themselves without having to worry they say something stupid, boring or insensitive. And that's a breath of fresh air for both, as that's hard to find elsewhere for both of 'em...
If she's still engaged when talking to you, she's interested. :)

I only know 1 INTP. I tend to favor NT's in general, though. Not quite sure why. I think I just have a lot to learn from them I guess.



Both of us are 38!
Oh ok, older than I thought! My age :)



Having lived with an ESFJ for 10 years, I do think I know most of the triggers and warning signs.

Still, thanks for the warning. I'll definitely keep this in mind!
I am married to an ESFJ. 17 years in a month :oops:



It's not that we're tougher than you guys. We're just sensitive to different things!
That's an interesting way to look at it.



We've been talking for 20 total now. It already feels pretty natural.

It feels so natural that both of us felt like it was time to plan a date.

We see each other for the first time IRL next Sunday!
Awesome! I hope it goes so well! I bet she is super nervous. IRL is a whole different ball game. All the awkward comes out in person. Though have you video messaged at all? That would help, wouldn't be quite so intimidating.



When I'm genuinely interested in a person, I ask questions.

It's only when I feel I already know a person well enough that I don't ask questions, because for an INTP asking questions is about getting information. For you guys, there's an emotional component to it, but for us it's just a matter of getting the info we want.

And if we like you, we want to know you; Thus, we ask questions, so we can achieve that!
(y)



This reminds me of a classic meme :

View attachment 866024
He is asking the right questions this is a very important thought


This is something INFJs & INTPs share.

I can ramble and ramble and ramble on and only then realize that no one is listening. Next time, I'll take a distance. Next time, I'll be more careful with what I say, who I say it to and for how long.
Yeah. Kind of strongly dislike this about myself. It's so easy & natural to put up walls. Brick by stinking brick. 馃槙




Actually, you are explaining it pretty well.

I guess it's kind of what I'm like when I'm attracted to a woman. Then I REALLY REALLY want her to like me, so I'm extra careful and extra insecure.

When talking with a random guy, I couldn't care less if they like me, because the stakes are much lower!
Ok good, thank you. Yes, exactly. 鈽



Not the same as always, I'd say, but enriched by the experience.

When I have these conversations with friends, I dont want to feel the same as always. I feel like I came out of it enriched one way or another... enriched by a connection I don't find with other people!
Right, yes. I think that's the goal of every interaction. Otherwise it seems a waste of time. Outside of banter & just conversing for amusement & giggles.

Connection- I have always just figured this was something that was important to everyone. It wasn't until recently that I've realized not everyone places as high of a value on it as I do. Speaking of rambling, the topic of connection is definitely one I could (and have) blather on & on about.

Thanks!

Looking forward ot my date next Sunday. Personally, I don't think this is going to stay a friendship for long. Unless meeting each other in real life totally backfires, I think this will grow beyond friendship real fast!
I hope so! Best wishes, update after the date please! :)
 

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This is why it's good to be able to laugh at yourself. My experience with that has been that others often find it endearing at least.
It depends.

One reason INTPs and INFJs often are a good fit, in my opinion, is that they have a natural affinity for one another's quirks and are more likely than other personality types to find them endearing rather than annoying.

That you're passionate about something. They may not be interested in it, but usually people appreciate that you are fascinated by something.
For me, personally, that's not enough. it's not enough, because people lost interest once the novelty is gone.

Sure, it's awesome to see someone almost lose themselves when talking about their favorite time period, their LEGO model, their book collection, their favorite board games or whatever they're passionate about... the first time... and maybe the first couple of times.

After a while, the novelty wears off, though. And, then, even those who initially thought of your passion as endearing will eventually get annoyed by it.

At least that's my experience...

If she's still engaged when talking to you, she's interested. :)
We've come to a point where our interaction contains this :

866108


The first emoticon was posted by her. The second one came from me. That's not something that just happens if the conservation is totally friendly without at least someone freaking out afterwards.

In fact, we kind of went on like that meant nothing after that and just returned to our casual conversation style, probably because both of us get quite uncomfortable with "too much" flirting going on.

I only know 1 INTP. I tend to favor NT's in general, though. Not quite sure why. I think I just have a lot to learn from them I guess.
xNTx basically translates to "rational".

For some reason, in spite of you guys feeing "feelers" and in fact quite the empaths, you somehow connect better with rational people than with other people that allow their lives and experiences to be defined by emotion.

You guys seem to have this insatiable urge to complement your emotional perspective on things with reason, which is something you find among xNTx people and especially among INTPs.

Oh ok, older than I thought! My age :)
We're all getting old...

I am married to an ESFJ. 17 years in a month :oops:
So you're a female INFJ married to a male ESFJ?

Do I get that right?

So I guess you're both empaths? How does that work out exactly?

That's an interesting way to look at it.
It's true.

Sure, I can be stoic in many situations where you guys get all emotional. But when shit really hits the fan (as with my recent breakup), I can get so overwhelmed by a tsunami of emotions that I'm paralized for weeks...

INTPs aren't very emotional people. But we still do have emotions. And because we aren't used to intense emotions, we are illequiped to dealing with them those rare moments we do feel them.

Which is more useful for survival? I guess it all depends on what you're trying to survive, right?

Awesome! I hope it goes so well! I bet she is super nervous.
You bet SHE is super nervous?

I'm having my first "first date" with a new woman in my life in 10 years, only about 2 months after getting dumped by what I then considered the love of my life. How do you think that feels?

Yesterday, I was so anxious I actually felt paralyzed just by the anxiety. Luckily, I found stability again after a bit of chatting with her.

IRL is a whole different ball game. All the awkward comes out in person. Though have you video messaged at all? That would help, wouldn't be quite so intimidating.
I'd rather not do voice or video chat until I feel comfortable seeing her face and hearing her voice in real life.

Listening to her voice and seeing her face without actually having met just feels awkward to me. Keeping it so text-chat somehow feels a lot safer. It makes me feel a lot more in control, which makes me feel more confident, etc.

Yes, men men can get pretty insecure about these things too, in case you didn't learn that from husband. :p

Yeah. Kind of strongly dislike this about myself. It's so easy & natural to put up walls. Brick by stinking brick. 馃槙
i can't stress this enough : DON'T PUT UP WALLS UNTIL YOU KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT YOU NEED THEM.

What do I mean by that? What I mean, is that you should test people to see if you need walls or not. Give them crumbles of info and verify their responses. If their responses are as desired, give them more crumbs. And continue to do so until you feel confident enough to stop testing them and be spontaneous!

It at some point during the test, they fail, then you can put up your walls, as the test has deemed it necessary. But, before that, please don't do it. Yes, it may feel safer, but in reality you may cause more harm than prevent is by putting up walls.

Right, yes. I think that's the goal of every interaction. Otherwise it seems a waste of time. Outside of banter & just conversing for amusement & giggles.
I suppose the point of all of our communication with our fellow human beings is either to connect with them or to get something done... either for them or from them.

How you connect with others probably depends on your personality type as well as theirs.

I hope so! Best wishes, update after the date please! :)
So far, I think there's already mutual interest, which is definitely a great start.

Where that leads us, is hard to tell... but I'll definitely add an update once we're there...
 

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It depends.

One reason INTPs and INFJs often are a good fit, in my opinion, is that they have a natural affinity for one another's quirks and are more likely than other personality types to find them endearing rather than annoying.
Huh. I guess I need to make more INTP friends. I've had good luck with all sorts of types being & enjoying weirdness. :) I latch onto those people.


For me, personally, that's not enough. it's not enough, because people lost interest once the novelty is gone.

Sure, it's awesome to see someone almost lose themselves when talking about their favorite time period, their LEGO model, their book collection, their favorite board games or whatever they're passionate about... the first time... and maybe the first couple of times.

After a while, the novelty wears off, though. And, then, even those who initially thought of your passion as endearing will eventually get annoyed by it.

At least that's my experience...
OhHhHhHhhhhh favorite time periods :love:

Haha I haven't run into that yet. Thankfully. They just laugh at me & know it's how I be.



We've come to a point where our interaction contains this :

View attachment 866108

The first emoticon was posted by her. The second one came from me. That's not something that just happens if the conservation is totally friendly without at least someone freaking out afterwards.

Oh la la the kissy face & lovey heart face emojis HOOOOOOOHHHH BOIIIII. She's definitely getting comfortable with you.

In fact, we kind of went on like that meant nothing after that and just returned to our casual conversation style, probably because both of us get quite uncomfortable with "too much" flirting going on.
Hahaha yes. Lay it down & then run awaaayyyyy & pretend it didn't just happen.



xNTx basically translates to "rational".

For some reason, in spite of you guys feeing "feelers" and in fact quite the empaths, you somehow connect better with rational people than with other people that allow their lives and experiences to be defined by emotion.

You guys seem to have this insatiable urge to complement your emotional perspective on things with reason, which is something you find among xNTx people and especially among INTPs.
Yes. I get easily irritated by people that are run by their emotions. That aren't able to hit a "pause" button to stop & think through things. Analyze first if how they're feeling is reasonable or not. Pet peeve of mine.



We're all getting old...
YOU SHUSH NOW 馃槶 I cAn'T hEaR yOuUuUuUuuuuuuu 馃檳



So you're a female INFJ married to a male ESFJ?

Do I get that right?

So I guess you're both empaths? How does that work out exactly?
I am indeed a female INFJ married to a male ESFJ.

It's interesting. My experience has been that he's very different from the female ESFJ's I know. He does not fit a lot of the stereotypes I read about ESFJ's. I'd say majority of my female ESFJ friends/family do, however. He is basically just a really, really good man. He is Mother Teresa & next to him I'm a piece of shit. 馃檭 He is very different now from how he was when we dated. He was free-spirited & rebellious back then, and it was one of the things that attracted me to him. He's pretty much run by lists & planning & getting shit done now. Which is not really how I roll, so there can be conflict there. We just value different things. He is practical. He actually enjoys doing tedious crap I think. I will put that stuff off foreeeevvverrrrr. He tries (& usually succeeds) at being everything to everyone. It's quite amazing.

Not sure if your'e familiar with enneagram & instincts, but we both test as 9's & I'm Sx whilst he's So. I think more of our conflict comes from that than anything. That & just topics that interest us. I crave back & forth exchanging of thoughts, dissecting ideas. This doesn't really interest him.

ANYWAY 馃槵

You dated an ESFJ, correct? I know it's hard to focus on the positive stuff rn, but share some of the good things about the relationship, please.


It's true.

Sure, I can be stoic in many situations where you guys get all emotional. But when shit really hits the fan (as with my recent breakup), I can get so overwhelmed by a tsunami of emotions that I'm paralized for weeks...

INTPs aren't very emotional people. But we still do have emotions. And because we aren't used to intense emotions, we are illequiped to dealing with them those rare moments we do feel them.

Which is more useful for survival? I guess it all depends on what you're trying to survive, right?
I have noticed this. It's another thing thing really interests me about T's in general. I really really wish brain hopping were a thing. There are so many people I'd love to jump into to see how they experience the world.


You bet SHE is super nervous?

I'm having my first "first date" with a new woman in my life in 10 years, only about 2 months after getting dumped by what I then considered the love of my life. How do you think that feels?

Yesterday, I was so anxious I actually felt paralyzed just by the anxiety. Luckily, I found stability again after a bit of chatting with her.
Haha, good point. Gosh I'm glad I don't have to do the dating thing. I would be a disaster.



I'd rather not do voice or video chat until I feel comfortable seeing her face and hearing her voice in real life.

Listening to her voice and seeing her face without actually having met just feels awkward to me. Keeping it so text-chat somehow feels a lot safer. It makes me feel a lot more in control, which makes me feel more confident, etc.
Yeah I detest all of the voice & video chats. Zoom has been my worst nightmare during this quarantine. SoOoOoOo awkward. :oops:

I have an INFP friend & we snap back & forth all day long the most ridiculous things. I love it. In person we are both just awkward buttheads though. We joke that we'd enjoy no talking & communicating via text whilst sitting next to each other still. I just don't know what's going to come out of my mouth sometimes & I don't like that. Esp in person because then the blushing & red face kick in oh sweet baby jesus I'm getting panicky just thinking about it 馃槺

Yes, men men can get pretty insecure about these things too, in case you didn't learn that from husband. :p
Liiiiieeeeeessssssss



i can't stress this enough : DON'T PUT UP WALLS UNTIL YOU KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT YOU NEED THEM.

What do I mean by that? What I mean, is that you should test people to see if you need walls or not. Give them crumbles of info and verify their responses. If their responses are as desired, give them more crumbs. And continue to do so until you feel confident enough to stop testing them and be spontaneous!

It at some point during the test, they fail, then you can put up your walls, as the test has deemed it necessary. But, before that, please don't do it. Yes, it may feel safer, but in reality you may cause more harm than prevent is by putting up walls.
This is exactly what I do.鈽 I don't do anything without testing people first. I'm just saying I probably misjudge my "tests" a lot more than i'd care to admit & it isn't fair to others. But whatevaaaaaaaaa



iI suppose the point of all of our communication with our fellow human beings is either to connect with them or to get something done... either for them or from them.

How you connect with others probably depends on your personality type as well as theirs.
Yeah. Idk. We all connect differently. Again, I could blather on about this topic but I shan't. NOT THIS DAY SUCKA



So far, I think there's already mutual interest, which is definitely a great start.

Where that leads us, is hard to tell... but I'll definitely add an update once we're there...
Sounds like it! Supahhh dupahhhhhh

If you could just go on the date today instead of tomorrow so I don't have to wait that would be great OKAY thanks 馃憢
 

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Huh. I guess I need to make more INTP friends.
I've had good luck with all sorts of types being & enjoying weirdness. :) I latch onto those people.
As an INTP, my experience is that I connect most with INFP men, INFJ women and INTPs of both sexes.

I get along with INTJs as well, but at a more superficial level.

Most, people, though, just think I'm too weird. And for me, they're usually too boring, meriocre, hypocritical, narrowminded, ...

Haha I haven't run into that yet. Thankfully. They just laugh at me & know it's how I be.
Maybe it's different for men & women.

Maybe being weird and/or geeky is generally more endearing in women than in men, because it's significantly more rare in women, and because what we like - as human beings of either sex - in women may differ from what we like in men.

I mean... From a purely instinctive, animalistic perspective, we want our women to be first and foremost great caretakers and our men to be first and foremost great protectors. That makes cuteness, sweetness and kindness traits we - as a species - find most appealing in women, whereas independence, strength and confidence are traits we find most appealing in men.

As much as our culture may try to override our instincts and make us look at men and women as equals and appreciate the same traits in both sexes equally, I'm not sure we can completely override our instincts like that. And while we may care less about such traits in friends or coworkers than in a potential romantic partner, I'm not sure we sure the preference for eg. cuteness in women and independence in men is entirely gone in how we judge our friends and coworkers.

But let's supposed that sex-based preferences for these certain attributes only play a role in pair bonding, and not in friendship and other types of non-romantic relationships we have. In that case, I think the relative rarity of "geeky" or "weirdo" women compared with men may be the biggest factor, as "geeks" and "weirdos" tend to tall for other "geeks" and "weirdos", which leaves a lot more choice for potential partners for men of this type than for women of this type. This undoubtable must make "weird" or "geeky" women more confident in their looks and behavior, which can only have a positive impact on how they are perceived by those who aren't "weird" or "geeky".

What also may play a role here, is what people look like, from a purely superficial perspective. Besides those traits mentioned, people are also drawn towards physical beauty (especiallly in women) and outward displays of status and wealth (especiallly in men). Someone like actress Zooey Deschanel may be weird / quirky, but when you look like her, most merdiocre people seem to find it easier to overlook that quirkiness. The same applies for businessman-engineer Elon Musk, who has enough billions in his name he doesn't need to give a **** whether to enter the stage doing the most awkward dance moves or entering a discussion with Jack Ma and falling out of character when realizing what an idiot his discussion partner really is.

All this is just speculation, obviously. Either way, I think we underestimate how much both our instincts / genes and our environment / culture impact how we look at others & how we treat them. Study the things that have influenced you since you were a child and you'll understand much of your likes and dislikes that would otherwise make no sense to you.

Oh la la the kissy face & lovey heart face emojis HOOOOOOOHHHH BOIIIII. She's definitely getting comfortable with you.
"Comfortable" isn't the word I think of when I see the "kissy face & lovey heart face emojis".

But yeah, she's definitely comfortable chatting with me. And the comfort is mutual.

Let's just hope we can find this same comfort in real life. if we can, I think here's great potential of this comfort growing into something much deeper very fast!

Hahaha yes. Lay it down & then run awaaayyyyy & pretend it didn't just happen.
Well, I may have exagerated a bit here.

Our conversations may have been slightly more flirtatious with every hint of attraction by one of us. But, for most part, it's all so subtle I'm sure many people could mistake if for friendly banter.

Yes. I get easily irritated by people that are run by their emotions. That aren't able to hit a "pause" button to stop & think through things. Analyze first if how they're feeling is reasonable or not. Pet peeve of mine.
I have both ends of the spectrum inside of me.

My default state is an almost total lack of emotion : a kind of zen-like, stoic state of apathy mixed with contentment.

Stress often creates an unpleasant undertone that, much like a boiling kettle, creates a pressure that keeps increasing until it reaches a certain threshold. At that point I explode, and there's little left but emotions.

My experience has been that he's very different from the female ESFJ's I know.
Please do elaborate.

I'd say majority of my female ESFJ friends/family do, however. He is basically just a really, really good man. He is Mother Teresa & next to him I'm a piece of shit. 馃檭 He is very different now from how he was when we dated. He was free-spirited & rebellious back then, and it was one of the things that attracted me to him. He's pretty much run by lists & planning & getting shit done now. Which is not really how I roll, so there can be conflict there. We just value different things. He is practical. He actually enjoys doing tedious crap I think. I will put that stuff off foreeeevvverrrrr. He tries (& usually succeeds) at being everything to everyone. It's quite amazing.
That's pretty much how I experienced my ESFJ ex when we were together.

Being 10 years together causes a lot of stress to build up on both sides, however. And when the kettle reached its max for her, she did a full 180 on me and slammed the door on me. She went all Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde on me, and went from the most selfless person I'd ever seen to the most selfish person I'd ever seen.

It took me weeks just trying to make sense of this.

Not sure if your'e familiar with enneagram & instincts, but we both test as 9's & I'm Sx whilst he's So. I think more of our conflict comes from that than anything. That & just topics that interest us. I crave back & forth exchanging of thoughts, dissecting ideas. This doesn't really interest him.
I'm not familiar with enneagram, so I can't comment on that.

With rsspect to "back & forth exchanging of thoughts, dissecting ideas", my ESFJ ex and myself focused on psychology and human nature in general. This is where my abstract theories and her personal experience intersected, and where we could find common ground, both from our own very different perspectives.

You dated an ESFJ, correct? I know it's hard to focus on the positive stuff rn, but share some of the good things about the relationship, please.
All the good things you said about your husband are traits I appreciated in my ESFJ ex as well.

Besides that, she was very smart. In fact, she's by far the smartest woman I've ever had the pleasure of knowing personally. She's a PhD level bio-engineer, who's done some pioneer research in the field of bacterial persistance, who's worked as a project manager for an international project and who currently teaches bio-chemistry to chemistry students at the local university. In spite of being a "sensor" and "feeler", she has a very rational approach to everything and rarely just follows her feeling withour rationally validating it first.

It's this combination of being a great organizer / planner, caretaker / hostess and scientist / teacher that made me fall in love with her, as those are traits I find most attractive in a woman personality-wise. In the end, though, I couldn't live up to her very high standards, which is one of the reasons we ended up going our own ways.

I have noticed this. It's another thing thing really interests me about T's in general. I really really wish brain hopping were a thing. There are so many people I'd love to jump into to see how they experience the world.
Both psychedelic & empathogenic substances allow you to experience the world through different "glasses" and make your perception more similar to that of others. They allow you to find a shared "bandwidth" in between your normal "bandwiths" or tune into the "bandwidth" of the other person.

Note that there's risks involved in such substances and you want to make sure you know what you're doing and have someone experienced with you to initiate you in this kind of thing. So I wouldn't just recommend taking this path, knowing as little as I do about you. But if you want to "tune" into the "wavelength" of others, just know that this is in fact possible by chemically tweaking how your brain operates.

Haha, good point. Gosh I'm glad I don't have to do the dating thing. I would be a disaster.
You want me to become even more nervous / anxious?!

Yeah I detest all of the voice & video chats. Zoom has been my worst nightmare during this quarantine. SoOoOoOo awkward. :oops:
I think it might go better once we've met each other enough in real life, so we've gotten used to hearing and seeing their other.

But at this stage, it's just awkward as ****!

I have an INFP friend & we snap back & forth all day long the most ridiculous things.
Male or female?

I don't have much experience with female INFPs, but they seem just a bit t贸o weird for me to connect with them deeply.

Male INFPs, though, are simply awesome. And I can't think of a greater connection to have with another man.

I'm just saying I probably misjudge my "tests" a lot more than i'd care to admit & it isn't fair to others. But whatevaaaaaaaaa
I'd say testing people is a hell or a lot more fair and efficient than putting up walls.

If you could just go on the date today instead of tomorrow so I don't have to wait that would be great OKAY thanks 馃憢
Less than 2 hours left.

Got to hit the shower and get ready...
 

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OK, so here's an update regarding my status with Sofie.

Our date today kinda went more or less the same as our life chats. The conversations went just as smoothly and felt just as natural. There was a little bit of flirting, but overall we were just talking for something like 8 hours.

First, we grabbed some food at a local "brasserie" (which, I guess, you'd call a "diner"). After that, we went for a walk near a local castle for about an hour. Then we went to a different place for dessert and a drink.

At the end of the date, I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheek. I would have taken it a bit further if I'd seen an opportunity, but I think I'll have to wait one or two more dates to get to that point.

Romantically, there's definitely mutual interest, but both of us seem a bit uncertain how to initiate physical contact... that is beyond walking close enough to touch eg. arms while we were walking or me picking aphids from her hair at the second place, as these little critters seemed to like the table we were sitting at at the second place a bit too much. :rolleyes:

Either way, when I asked her about whether there would be a second date, she told me something like "yes, but I'm afraid I'll only be able to meet you in about a week"... implying she had a busy week and would have otherwise wanted to meet sooner. So, yeah, I guess that means she doesn't just want to see me again but she wants to see me again rather sooner than later. We'll still be chatting in the meantime, though.

Overall... I wouldn't have minded a passionate French kiss and/or loving embrace in between the hours of talking, to make the whole experience feel a bit less platonic, but - unless I screw up - I suppose this is just a matter of finding the right opening... which I hope will be easier if I invite her over to watch a movie together...

So far, so good. No, on to round #2!
 

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As an INTP, my experience is that I connect most with INFP men, INFJ women and INTPs of both sexes.

I get along with INTJs as well, but at a more superficial level.

Most, people, though, just think I'm too weird. And for me, they're usually too boring, meriocre, hypocritical, narrowminded,
Yes. Boring. Idk, maybe more predictable than boring. And predictable is boring, so same thing I guess. I want to smack so many people so often. STOP BEING THIS WAY. STOP IT. DON'T YOU SEE HOW MUCH YOU ARE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSEEEeeeeee 馃槶馃槶馃槶 and then I feel super guilty because that's mean of me.


Maybe it's different for men & women.

Maybe being weird and/or geeky is generally more endearing in women than in men, because it's significantly more rare in women, and because what we like - as human beings of either sex - in women may differ from what we like in men.

I mean... From a purely instinctive, animalistic perspective, we want our women to be first and foremost great caretakers and our men to be first and foremost great protectors. That makes cuteness, sweetness and kindness traits we - as a species - find most appealing in women, whereas independence, strength and confidence are traits we find most appealing in men.

As much as our culture may try to override our instincts and make us look at men and women as equals and appreciate the same traits in both sexes equally, I'm not sure we can completely override our instincts like that. And while we may care less about such traits in friends or coworkers than in a potential romantic partner, I'm not sure we sure the preference for eg. cuteness in women and independence in men is entirely gone in how we judge our friends and coworkers.

But let's supposed that sex-based preferences for these certain attributes only play a role in pair bonding, and not in friendship and other types of non-romantic relationships we have. In that case, I think the relative rarity of "geeky" or "weirdo" women compared with men may be the biggest factor, as "geeks" and "weirdos" tend to tall for other "geeks" and "weirdos", which leaves a lot more choice for potential partners for men of this type than for women of this type. This undoubtable must make "weird" or "geeky" women more confident in their looks and behavior, which can only have a positive impact on how they are perceived by those who aren't "weird" or "geeky".

What also may play a role here, is what people look like, from a purely superficial perspective. Besides those traits mentioned, people are also drawn towards physical beauty (especiallly in women) and outward displays of status and wealth (especiallly in men). Someone like actress Zooey Deschanel may be weird / quirky, but when you look like her, most merdiocre people seem to find it easier to overlook that quirkiness. The same applies for businessman-engineer Elon Musk, who has enough billions in his name he doesn't need to give a **** whether to enter the stage doing the most awkward dance moves or entering a discussion with Jack Ma and falling out of character when realizing what an idiot his discussion partner really is.

All this is just speculation, obviously. Either way, I think we underestimate how much both our instincts / genes and our environment / culture impact how we look at others & how we treat them. Study the things that have influenced you since you were a child and you'll understand much of your likes and dislikes that would otherwise make no sense to you.
Yes. Agree with all of this. Weirdness in women is more often seen as "cute" & quirky. Looks do also help. I'm decent looking. I'm aware there are times I get away with more than I should because of it.

I just watched a show that did a bunch of experiments & one was on how much looks play a role in people's opinions of others. They had 2 groups of 50 people. Each group was shown a mugshot of a person & a description of the crime they committed. All were then asked to write down what they thought a good sentence would be. Same exact crime was listed for each, but the mugshots were different. As you can guess, one was of a person that would be considered universally "attractive' (they were models or actors), one was not. The attractive people were overwhelmingly given shorter sentences. One of them was a mom that left a child in the car, the child died. The comments the people gave to the unattractive woman were very unforgiving. They definitely wanted her to pay for her crime. The comments for the attractive woman were very empathetic, with some saying "the guilt she'll live with is punishment enough." It's just kind of crazy to me that this happens. I know there's many reasons why it happens, but it's still shocking.



"Comfortable" isn't the word I think of when I see the "kissy face & lovey heart face emojis".

But yeah, she's definitely comfortable chatting with me. And the comfort is mutual.

Let's just hope we can find this same comfort in real life. if we can, I think here's great potential of this comfort growing into something much deeper very fast!
Haha what do you think when you see kissy & lovey heart emoji's? I'm curious. Are they a big deal to you? I have a lot of strong feelings & maybe use emojis too flippantly to express that. I probably use them more with strangers actually. As goofing around. Keeping things lighthearted.



Well, I may have exagerated a bit here.

Our conversations may have been slightly more flirtatious with every hint of attraction by one of us. But, for most part, it's all so subtle I'm sure many people could mistake if for friendly banter.
Banter is the best. It's my favorite.


I have both ends of the spectrum inside of me.

My default state is an almost total lack of emotion : a kind of zen-like, stoic state of apathy mixed with contentment.

Stress often creates an unpleasant undertone that, much like a boiling kettle, creates a pressure that keeps increasing until it reaches a certain threshold. At that point I explode, and there's little left but emotions.
This is something I never tire of. Hearing descriptions of how T's experience emotions/feelings. The common theme I see is this idea of neutrality. Not really feeling anything. I just have such a hard time wrapping my brain around it, it's so different from how I experience emotions.

I do see this often, that while the T's modus operandi does tend to generally be "neutral", when they jump out of said neutral state, it is intense. It's like go big or go home. I have ESTJ & ESTP male friends (both married to ISFJ's) and they can sometimes seem more emotional than their wives. It's an odd thing. It's like "AhHhHhhhh Whaaaaat the heck is happening right now where is this coming frommmmmm run awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy". It is intense. Though I guess that's not fair because F's do this too. Esp the ones that hide their emotions. Oftentimes the nicer a person seems, the bigger & more shocking the explosion.


Please do elaborate.
Ok. I feel bad saying these things as they're not very kind, but these are my observations. I have a few female ESFJ friends/family members. Here are some things I notice about them that he does not display. I'm not saying this is universal to all female ESFJ's, but it is generally the case for the ones I know. They are all kind & welcoming & warm, often the kindest, warmest person in the room. But the kindness does not always seem genuine. I say this because I have experienced them being kind to someone's face & then turning around & talking poorly about them. Enjoy gossip. Have a bit of a martyr complex. Go bonkers unless they are in control of all the things. Don't seem very self-aware, though they think they are. A bit naggy/princessy maybe? Not sure how to explain that. High expectations on partner I guess & feeling it's justified. Not being able to see another's POV. Pretty judgemental (though again, not to a person's face). Now I feel like I should list all of the positive things about them because there are many. And I know any type that isn't really "healthy" (whatever that means) can behave like this.

I do not see my husband being any of these things. He's the opposite. He is genuinely just a really, really good guy. Tries to put everyone else first. He does not talk poorly about anyone, he is generally pretty self-aware (except for the standards thing, ->), not judgemental (The exception would be loved ones. He has very, very high expecations of loved ones.).

ANYWAY 馃槵

That's pretty much how I experienced my ESFJ ex when we were together.

Being 10 years together causes a lot of stress to build up on both sides, however. And when the kettle reached its max for her, she did a full 180 on me and slammed the door on me. She went all Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde on me, and went from the most selfless person I'd ever seen to the most selfish person I'd ever seen.

It took me weeks just trying to make sense of this.
I'm sorry this happened. 鈽 It sounds like she must have had built-up resentment or something to jump to such an extreme. Poor communication on her end. Which back to what I mentioned earlier- sometimes the "nicest" ones are the meanest ones. 馃檵鈥嶁檧锔 gUiLtY.

Another topic I could ramble on about.


I'm not familiar with enneagram, so I can't comment on that.

With rsspect to "back & forth exchanging of thoughts, dissecting ideas", my ESFJ ex and myself focused on psychology and human nature in general. This is where my abstract theories and her personal experience intersected, and where we could find common ground, both from our own very different perspectives.
Yes, I find the same with him. I loooooooooooOOOoooOOOooove it. However I have to pretty much poor booze down his throat to get him to say more than 5 words. 馃檭


All the good things you said about your husband are traits I appreciated in my ESFJ ex as well.

Besides that, she was very smart. In fact, she's by far the smartest woman I've ever had the pleasure of knowing personally. She's a PhD level bio-engineer, who's done some pioneer research in the field of bacterial persistance, who's worked as a project manager for an international project and who currently teaches bio-chemistry to chemistry students at the local university. In spite of being a "sensor" and "feeler", she has a very rational approach to everything and rarely just follows her feeling withour rationally validating it first.

It's this combination of being a great organizer / planner, caretaker / hostess and scientist / teacher that made me fall in love with her, as those are traits I find most attractive in a woman personality-wise. In the end, though, I couldn't live up to her very high standards, which is one of the reasons we ended up going our own ways.
Wow, she has accomplished a lot! Good for her. Right, all these things are my experience as well. He's extremely rational, does not react on emotions without thinking things through thoroughly first. Super intelligent and amazing/accomplished at what he does. And he gives 100% to his job.

Those standards though. 馃槼 It's quite a thing to experience. It's tough because I think it's important to have standards for others. Pushing people to be their best & fullfill their potential is important & has it's place. I value being pushed. HOWEVER... 馃槺

...do not hold me to your level or assume my goals are the same as yours.



Both psychedelic & empathogenic substances allow you to experience the world through different "glasses" and make your perception more similar to that of others. They allow you to find a shared "bandwidth" in between your normal "bandwiths" or tune into the "bandwidth" of the other person.

Note that there's risks involved in such substances and you want to make sure you know what you're doing and have someone experienced with you to initiate you in this kind of thing. So I wouldn't just recommend taking this path, knowing as little as I do about you. But if you want to "tune" into the "wavelength" of others, just know that this is in fact possible by chemically tweaking how your brain operates.
Yes I have zero experience with any drugs. I am, however, very curious.


You want me to become even more nervous / anxious?!

I think it might go better once we've met each other enough in real life, so we've gotten used to hearing and seeing their other.

But at this stage, it's just awkward as ****!
YaY fOr PaSt TeNsE. All done with that initial anxiousness of meeting a person for the first time. 馃コ馃帀


Male or female?

Female. And she's the most awkward, quirky person I've ever met. I adore her & the way her brain works.


I don't have much experience with female INFPs, but they seem just a bit t贸o weird for me to connect with them deeply.

Male INFPs, though, are simply awesome. And I can't think of a greater connection to have with another man.
TOO WEIRD?!? There is no such thing.

They are weird. It's glorious. Get yoself a female INFP friend.



I'd say testing people is a hell or a lot more fair and efficient than putting up walls.
I have a PhD in both. 馃槶


Less than 2 hours left.

Got to hit the shower and get ready...
So fun though. Wasn't that anxiousness a bit exciting? It's simultaneously the most gross & glorious feeling. :)






OK, so here's an update regarding my status with Sofie.

Our date today kinda went more or less the same as our life chats. The conversations went just as smoothly and felt just as natural. There was a little bit of flirting, but overall we were just talking for something like 8 hours.

First, we grabbed some food at a local "brasserie" (which, I guess, you'd call a "diner"). After that, we went for a walk near a local castle for about an hour. Then we went to a different place for dessert and a drink.

At the end of the date, I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheek. I would have taken it a bit further if I'd seen an opportunity, but I think I'll have to wait one or two more dates to get to that point.

Romantically, there's definitely mutual interest, but both of us seem a bit uncertain how to initiate physical contact... that is beyond walking close enough to touch eg. arms while we were walking or me picking aphids from her hair at the second place, as these little critters seemed to like the table we were sitting at at the second place a bit too much. :rolleyes:

Either way, when I asked her about whether there would be a second date, she told me something like "yes, but I'm afraid I'll only be able to meet you in about a week"... implying she had a busy week and would have otherwise wanted to meet sooner. So, yeah, I guess that means she doesn't just want to see me again but she wants to see me again rather sooner than later. We'll still be chatting in the meantime, though.

Overall... I wouldn't have minded a passionate French kiss and/or loving embrace in between the hours of talking, to make the whole experience feel a bit less platonic, but - unless I screw up - I suppose this is just a matter of finding the right opening... which I hope will be easier if I invite her over to watch a movie together...

So far, so good. No, on to round #2!
Sounds like it went really well!! 馃帀馃コ Happy to hear everything went smoothly![/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Weirdness in women is more often seen as "cute" & quirky. Looks do also help. I'm decent looking. I'm aware there are times I get away with more than I should because of it.
I'm pretty sure it's the same with wealth for men.

I'm pretty sure those CEOs, CIOs & CTOs in Silicon Valley can get away with lots of weird shit their employees never could get away with...

It's just kind of crazy to me that this happens. I know there's many reasons why it happens, but it's still shocking.
I do think there's several reasons why attractive people get away with more than ugly people. In case of women, sexual attractiveness definitely plays a role. In case of men, however, I don't think it plays as much a role as in women, or at least not nearly as much as social status & wealth.

Another thing worth to consider, is how certain kinds of ugliness have been historically associated with shadiness. Think of a crooked nose, for example, which has been associated with witches and antisemitic stereotypes alike. About a century ago, it was commonly believed that certain facial distortions were associated with certain character flaws, and I suspect this stems from our very instinctive responses to other people.

Haha what do you think when you see kissy & lovey heart emoji's? I'm curious. Are they a big deal to you?
It depends on the person and the context. It may just be innocent banter between two friends. Especially women may us flirtatious emojis like that amongst one another without them having any "special" meaning.

Here we're talking about a single man getting to know a single woman, both of which are fairly insecure, and both of which have showed some degree of mutual interest. In this particular context, I can't see this as anything but an emphasis of mutual interest.

This is something I never tire of. Hearing descriptions of how T's experience emotions/feelings. The common theme I see is this idea of neutrality. Not really feeling anything. I just have such a hard time wrapping my brain around it, it's so different from how I experience emotions.
The INTP brain's default state is much like any other brain on acid, but without all the visual & auditory distortions.

Our optimal state is much like what you'd be like when you're in a meditative / yoga state.

I do see this often, that while the T's modus operandi does tend to generally be "neutral", when they jump out of said neutral state, it is intense. It's like go big or go home.
I've often refered to myself as a man of extremes :
  • Either I'm passionate about something or not interested at all
  • Either I'm hyperorganized or totally chaotic
  • Either I really like / love you or I couldn't care less about you
  • Either I have razor-sharp focus, or my mind is literally all over the place
  • ...
It seems to me that in many people emotions have a leveling effect : they cut off the extremes on both ends of the spectrum, and thus make people less extreme. I think it's the combination of being I, N, T & P that makes INTPs rather extreme in the way emotions don't level out our different sides, which in turn makes us seem like a walking contradiction; a combination of many opposites to outsiders...

I have ESTJ & ESTP male friends (both married to ISFJ's) and they can sometimes seem more emotional than their wives. It's an odd thing.
Overall, I would expert S people to be more emotional than N people..

When I think of rational people, I think of xNTx people; I think of people who are both "intuitive" and "thinking" in the MBTI sense.

Both "sensing" and "feeling" are traits I perceive as irrational to some degree. However, not that I do mean this as an insult.

While I used to think of "irrationality" as inferior to "reason", I have come to understand the pros and cons of the different perspectives; Yes, reason is superior... in some contexts. In other contexts, a bit of irrationality actually can be more beneficial.

This is one thing I like about humanity : all the different types are very complementary. Our society just happens to be insufficiently organized to deal with this particular kind of diversity. Mainstream culture is obsessed abour racial and gender diversity, but in my opinion personality diversity is infinitely more important if you want an efficient society and maximal happiness for the greatest number of people (that's my Fe speaking here).

Oftentimes the nicer a person seems, the bigger & more shocking the explosion.
Yeah, well...

For 10 years, my ESFJ seemed like a saint. Then, after she broke up with me, she seemed like a demon.

I don't think I've ever seen someone do an instant 180 like that in their attitude towards a person.

This is what scares me about INFJs. They have a reputation for doing this, with their infamous "door slam".

I'm not saying this is universal to all female ESFJ's, but it is generally the case for the ones I know. They are all kind & welcoming & warm, often the kindest, warmest person in the room. But the kindness does not always seem genuine. I say this because I have experienced them being kind to someone's face & then turning around & talking poorly about them. Enjoy gossip. Have a bit of a martyr complex. Go bonkers unless they are in control of all the things. Don't seem very self-aware, though they think they are. A bit naggy/princessy maybe? Not sure how to explain that. High expectations on partner I guess & feeling it's justified. Not being able to see another's POV. Pretty judgemental (though again, not to a person's face).
In retrospect, this seems like a sound description of my ESFJ ex.

She made me feel like she loved me unconditionally and like I was an inadequate partner to her, both at the same time.

And, so it seems in retrospect, she managed to get everyone to see her like she was a victim and I was an abuser, which resulted in none of my two "best friends" taking my side after I got dumped, even though I got by far the shortest end of the straw. In fact, not only did my oldest friend (I've known her for roughly 20 years) not side with me, my ex and her are now a couple. I may have mentioned that already, but can you imagine the mindfuck?

Sure, I won't deny that I hurt her quite a few times due to my social clumsiness, my scatterbrain or other common INTP flaws. But my love for her truly was unconditional. I truly saw her as a soulmate and thought we could conquer any obstable in our path. And then I was blamed for refusing to accept a situation where I was dumped by who I thought was my soulmate and then asked to permanently leave my dream home behind, shortly after losing my job. Somehow, my environment was convinced that I was the selfish one for being unable to accept that situation.

I do not see my husband being any of these things. He's the opposite. He is genuinely just a really, really good guy. Tries to put everyone else first. He does not talk poorly about anyone, he is generally pretty self-aware (except for the standards thing, ->), not judgemental (The exception would be loved ones. He has very, very high expecations of loved ones.).
Yeah, well...

This description ALSO reminds me a lot of my ex.

Yes, she has VERY high expectations, but I do think it only applies to a lover.

And, it seems, the "martyr complex" only arises when those expectations aren't met.

And it's only then that she starts to gossip / complain about her lover to friends and family.

I'm sorry this happened. 鈽 It sounds like she must have had built-up resentment or something to jump to such an extreme. Poor communication on her end. Which back to what I mentioned earlier- sometimes the "nicest" ones are the meanest ones. 馃檵鈥嶁檧锔 gUiLtY.
Yeah, well...

I suppose she was a poor "sender" and I was a poor "receiver".

Poor communication is never just caused by one person. Making sure a message comes across is the responsibility of both the person sending the message and the person receiving it; I'm pretty sure both of us share the responsibility in not communicating properly on certain important issues!

Yes, I find the same with him. I loooooooooooOOOoooOOOooove it. However I have to pretty much poor booze down his throat to get him to say more than 5 words. 馃檭
My ESFJ ex is actually a chatterbox. It's just that by default her topics aren't really that deep. Philosophical or psychological discussions just don't come natural to her. She's all about direct experience, not theory & abstraction...

Wow, she has accomplished a lot! Good for her.
What makes this even more amazing, is that she was born with a neuromuscular condition called SMA. She's been in an electric wheelchair since age 12.

This is part of why I fell for here; She has this perseverence and "joye the vivre" that are hard to find in anyone, but especially in someone who's spent most of her life in a wheelchair...

Right, all these things are my experience as well. He's extremely rational, does not react on emotions without thinking things through thoroughly first. Super intelligent and amazing/accomplished at what he does. And he gives 100% to his job.
Hard not to fall for these traits, now, isn't it?!

Those standards though. 馃槼 It's quite a thing to experience. It's tough because I think it's important to have standards for others. Pushing people to be their best & fullfill their potential is important & has it's place. I value being pushed. HOWEVER... 馃槺

...do not hold me to your level or assume my goals are the same as yours.
I hear you, girl...

I hear you...

Yes I have zero experience with any drugs. I am, however, very curious.
I'd recommend you to stay away from stimulants. They can become very addictive and leave many people with a hangover the day after

Psychedelics are a different story. They have little to no addictive properties, and there's barely any hangover (if any at all).

Dissociatives (like ketamine or nitrious oxide) are a bit more addictive than psychedelics but significantly less than stimulants. And they can be a good alternative to alcohol.

Either way, if you ever want to experience with any such substances, make sure you inform yourself. And, ideally, look for someone experienced to guide you through the process at least the first couple of times. Especially psychedelics can be quite scary the first time without an experienced sitter. The reward, however, is also greatest with psychedelics...

YaY fOr PaSt TeNsE. All done with that initial anxiousness of meeting a person for the first time. 馃コ馃帀
lol

First date has passed. There's still a bit of awkwardness ./ anxiety there, thought, because whatever we have right now has no physical component yet.

I would so much like to just hold her arms, press her against the wall, put my lips against her lips and... Well, you get the idea.

As a man, I feel like I need to be the one to make the first move, but until I get the right signals from her I don't know how and when to proceed.

And that's scary as ****. Can you imagine the buzzkill of trying to make a move while she doesn't feel ready for that yet?

Female. And she's the most awkward, quirky person I've ever met. I adore her & the way her brain works.
When I think of female INFPs, I think of Bj枚rk & Grimes. And maybe Yo-Landi Visser?

I find their vibe extremely attractive, but I just don't relate enough with their particular kind of weirdness to see them as a potential romantic partner.

Maybe we could get along as friends? It's definitely something I'm open for. I'm just not sure if it would work out.

TOO WEIRD?!? There is no such thing.
I guess it's not so much them being "too weird" but them being weird in this very feminine emotional way that I just don't really connect with.

When I see Elon Musk (INTP) & Grimes (INFP) together, I totally get why they fell for each other. But I can't even imagine what their life together would be like...

I mean... I'm no stranger to weirdness. In fact, I'm more often than not the weirdest guy in the crowd. But who the **** calls their kid X 脝 A-12? Only an INTP-INFP couple could even consider this, let alone share such a crazy name with the world!

INFJ women, in comparison, I don't really consider that weird at all. Sure, much like female INTPs, you have this unusual combo of geek and empath going on (although more expressed / intense than female INTPs), as well as a streak of androgyny. But you gals come off as quite plain - personality wise - in comparison with the quasi-psychotic batshit crazy side that INFPs - and female INFPs in particular - tend to have..At least for me, that's a good thing!

With respect to a romantic partner, I like a bit of quirkiness in my woman, but I also feel the need to relate to her. And I feel like I should be the one pulling her out of her shell and not the other way around. So I feel more comfortable with a romantic partner if I'm the weirdest and most edgy among the two of us.

Does that make any sense to you?

So fun though. Wasn't that anxiousness a bit exciting? It's simultaneously the most gross & glorious feeling. :)
The day of my first dat and the two days before, I was surprisingly calm.

It's just this one day, right before that, that I was totally overwhelmed by what felt like a wave of anxiety. It may be some residual emotions from the breakup by the ex that made the anxiety so extreme. Once I got passed that, I was able to keep my emotions under control before the the first date and just go with the flow during the first date surprisingly easy.

What I do think may have also helped, is that we watched "Mr Nobody" in synch, each from our own homes, during the day after my anxiety attack. That movie, which is all about making choices and how different kinds of love impact our lives, is my #2 favorite movie and means a hell of a lot to me.

Something inside of me told me that I just needed to share that movie before our first date, because there's so much purity in this movie, intellectually and emotionally, that I strongly relate to and felt I needed to share before actually seeing each other "in the flesh". Just the thought that she'd experienced this movie with me, made me feel more comfortable meeting her in real life;

Emotions are weird... and that incudes my own!

Sounds like it went really well!! 馃帀馃コ Happy to hear everything went smoothly!
Maybe it's still too early, but I'm kind of missing a physical component : holding hands, hugs / embraces, French kisses, etc.

When there's clear and obvious mutual interest, I don't really see the point in waiting until you start exploring each other's body... I don't mean this in a sexual way per se, but I'm thinking rather of getting familiar with touching each other, like holding hands or touching each other's legs as you watch a movie together, sitting shoulder-to-shoulder. That, and the very first French kiss, in my opinion, is when you cross the line between just two people dating each other to two people becoming lovers. And that's a threshold that both scares me to death and that I'm looking forward to like a kid looking forward to visiting a candy store!

I hope that didn't come out wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that ANY kind of physical intimacy is for me the main distinction between friendship and a romantic relationship. That includes sex, but starts with holding hands, curling up against each other and other forms of non-sexual physical intimacy. And while we aren't just there yet, the whole dating process inevitably continues to feel a bit awkward, in spite of how smooth and natural the flow of our communication really is most of the time!
 
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