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So I seem to struggle in the romance area. Not in terms of finding women to have sex with. As it turns out, getting laid is actually pretty easy. My problem is that I seem to be incapable of getting emotionally attached to women. Over the last three years I've dated (keyword is date, not gotten into relationships), with around 30-40 women, with varying levels of intamacy. Closest I got to feeling something was in November, but I didn't like the way it felt, and as it turned out the feeling wasn't mutual.

I don't intend on being a player or anything, I actually want to find someone who I am heads-over-heels for, as the saying goes. But at the same time the whole concept of being so emotionally attached to a person seems so ... illogical. Everytime I even sense a hint of feeling something I find a reason to not feel it. To be fair though, I have a highly idealized version of the woman I'd like to spend my life with, and so far every single one I've spent time with haw come up short, mostly in the "she's just not that interesting" area.

I wasn't always like this. In my teenage years I had numerous crushes and became incredibly emotionally attached to girls. But now that I'm older I see those girls for how average they really are. Also worth mentioning is that after having a friekin 4 month crush on this one girl when I was 17 I finally got the balls to ask her out and got rejected. So based on this tidbit of info, I think I may have developed a defense mechanism to prevent getting rejected. Ironically the less emotion I feel for women the more action I get.

I've heard all these stories of guys who met a girl they fell in love with and fought to "win" her. I can't see myself doing that though. Because quite frankly I don't think anyone is special in terms of who they are at their core. So when a guy tells me how in love he is with his girlfriend I try to figure what's so special about her, so I ask what she does. "She bartends at a bar". Oh, to save money for school? "Yeah". Cool, does she know what she wants to do with her life? "Not really, she's stil figuring it out".

Thing is I consider myself to be pretty special and interesting. I only know one person who has goals as big as the ones I've set for myself, a dude who also happens to be an ENTP. So I think I'm a pretty interesting guy, and as is have very few friends who I can say the same about. But I don't consciously feel anything for friends. Friends are people who have a similar outlook on life who you hang out and get drunk with. Emotions aren't a part of it.

I guess what comes down to is I'd like to know what "love" feels like, but I don't understand how it's useful, or why anyone deserves my love except if they are truly amazing (I don't consider someone who brings soup to you when you're sick to be amazing. How does that make her unique?).

So... Can anyone here relate to this?
 

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I read and re-read your post. I wish I had something to offer. I can understand and relate to not having very close friendships. I have lots of friends, I love people, but I keep them at a distance. I have been married three time, so I probably should be capable of relating. :) I have a little bit of standard in who I would marry also, so I can understand, that also. Dating someone is different than marrying them. You can date anyone but not everyone is marriage worthy, right? I might date the tattoo artist but I want to marry the engineer.

I have the sneaking suspicion that eventually, there will be this one girl that comes along and she is going to put the voodoo on you and your are going to be following her around like a puppy on a string. Maybe? :)
 

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Depending on your mood, this may or may not cheer you up... In either case- I find the correlation humorous.

human-vs-robot-10.jpg

To your question - I think I am apt to agrre that it may be something to do with the rejection aspect. When you 'feel' for another, you put yourself in the vulnerable position. This is just a fact. The last thing you want, and usually don't expect (because feeling is irrational), is to be rejected. So what can I say other than, somehow grow a pair and give women the option to kick you square in the balls - because love hurts. I will refer you to an educational source you can study:

 

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I don't intend on being a player or anything, I actually want to find someone who I am heads-over-heels for, as the saying goes. But at the same time the whole concept of being so emotionally attached to a person seems so ... illogical. Everytime I even sense a hint of feeling something I find a reason to not feel it. To be fair though, I have a highly idealized version of the woman I'd like to spend my life with, and so far every single one I've spent time with haw come up short, mostly in the "she's just not that interesting" area.
I feel very comfortable offering two suggestions on two very different aspects you touched on.

The simpler one is the last sentence in that quote. As an ENTP, you are much more capable than the average human of envisioning the most awesome female psyche, one that would light up your inner mind. This is an exercise we are all exposed to socially at some point, when asked to describe the ideal partner. Read or watch the Stepford Wives, it might remind you that being with a custom-designed SO isn't the end-all-be-all.

Secondly, and much more complex, consider getting more in synch with your instinctive nature when dealing with a romantic interest. The logical part of my mind is not the primary connection point with women. Instead, I sink down to my ages-old, genetically hard-wired limbic section. Before we had language, we still connected with our romantic interests, relying on acts of love that don't need to be taught. The connection one has with one's mate is intense, and for very important reasons. It's this same instinctive level people suddenly fall back to when they become parents. It's not all logic there, and you will often hear people say that having a child completely changed how they make their decisions. Instinct will step into the arena and thrash logic when it comes to offspring.

Instinct also has it's own preferences for weeding out the unacceptable partners. Combined with logic, the two work together for this purpose. It might guide you to accepting a SO despite logical objections, and vice versa.

Being an ENTP, you'll figure out how to get more in synch with your instinctive side your own way. Study the limbic section, analyze what about your behavior is already based on instincts, etc. There's probably quite a few ways to go about it. It has several other beneficial capabilities to offer you.

I'm an ENTP, not a licensed expert on anything, which means that I'm aware some or all of what I have said may be completely wrong. My intention is to offer you insight into the psychological tools I use. Best of luck.
 

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Yeah, bro. I can. It's called growing up and realizing that our sexual market value has steadily gone up, that most women are rather boring for the most part and do not deserve to be on any pedestal, that many women today are vacuous and incapable of appreciating or holding serious or deep thoughts, and that we want someone who can complement us rather than bring us down.

Welcome to the Sacred Circle of Mature ENTP Gentlemen.
 

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I can empathise with your apathy for and bewilderment around the significance of romantic relationships, which is rather unusual for a female INFJ.


Anyway, it is clear that your apparent disdain for romantic connection stems from the fact that you hold such high ideals on what your “perfect” partner should be, and obviously she is virtually an illusion. And even you yourself have acknowledged that this could also probably be your defence mechanism given the history that is behind you. I don’t agree with @SpilledMilk though, in saying that this could be a sign of reaching the stage of maturity. In my opinion, maturity entails a good balance in every paradigm that makes up your being, and relationships take up a huge estate among those paradigms. Cliché as this may sound, but you are probably just on your journey to recognising your priorities, wants and needs in a relationship. It just so happens that maybe you have too high regard on yourself that this has translated to your unrealistic ideals, that even encompass your friendly relationships.


For me learning to be humble is a powerful driving force that enables one to accept other people and their scars, flaws and insecurities. So perhaps it can help if you have a more realistic opinion on others and maybe on yourself. Indeed you are unique, interesting and special, as like everyone else. No one is born better than everyone else, nor is there someone born to be the worst of all.


Lastly, when you go out to try to conjure an epiphany on what love feels like, ask yourself, “Do I really want love in my life or a relationship for that matter?” then maybe the answer would come smacking right in front of where your standing.
 

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Based on what I know about sex and relationships and bonding (I spent months scouring this topic and getting first hand knowledge from people experiencing it) there is high correlation between casual sex and the inability to bond. The more you run through women, the harder it becomes to connect intimately. Why not just take a break from sex? <---it wont kill you. Take some time to access what it is that you want in a woman and look for it. Don't stop until you find it. That means stop with the STR, hook ups, and ONS and the like and if you find someone you could really be into, spend time developing a relationship and connection built on more than just the tingle in your pants.


Getting bored with one sexual partner after a short while and not being able to find "love" is something that has been really true for all of the (3) ENTPs that I've encountered. This inability to attach emotionally is something I dislike about the ENTPs I've met, and is a reason why I'd probably not date one.

I can understand having a hard time attaching, and even getting bored with a person after a while. But I cant understand sleeping around for pleasure in the meantime. I just can't do it. Its not my style. I want a very specific type of relationship and I wont stop until I find it. That also means not giving my attention to any other men. I just don't see the point and it would waste my time, and be detrimental to my feelings. I can survive a "drought", because they way I see it, anything really worth having is hard to find but rewarding when you do.
 

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So I seem to struggle in the romance area. Not in terms of finding women to have sex with. As it turns out, getting laid is actually pretty easy. My problem is that I seem to be incapable of getting emotionally attached to women. Over the last three years I've dated (keyword is date, not gotten into relationships), with around 30-40 women, with varying levels of intamacy. Closest I got to feeling something was in November, but I didn't like the way it felt, and as it turned out the feeling wasn't mutual.

..........................................

So... Can anyone here relate to this?
Yes. I can relate. I had a period a few years ago, where I had multiple people interested and basically had several semi-girlfriends simultaneously (ok, none of them were local to me, but I did see one of them regularly in person).
Anyway.... I found that there was a technique for being able to get close to people, get them interested, get them in bed, keep them entertained, etc. but that it didn't do anything for me.

I think you'll have to approach someone and leave behind your experience. Seems that your experience leads you to physical and not emotional connections. The first time I completely fell for someone was a couple years ago, when I completely stopped trying to work to keep her interested, and it was great. I was still going through shit (dying parent, past gf abused me, chronically ill (fuck tonsils!!)) at the time though, so it didn't work out.

My advice: leave behind the physical on purpose and ignore chicks who don't interest you. Talk to the nerdy, shy chicks. They're a lot deeper. This is why I like(love/hate, but the love > hate) INFP's.
 

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@Tulipgarden @chittychitty LightNING @aef8234 @LimeDegree @SpilledMilk @vanilla_dream @PeteTheZombie @Chipps

Thanks for the responses people. The post may have come across as a tad depressive, but that's not the case. It's something I recognize in myself and am contemplating if it is something that needs be "fixed".

My normal relationships with girls goes something like this. We start talking (I usually make the interaction happen), small fluff talk to start (a skill I'm constantly improving), I find out what she does, come to the conclusion that her life is boring, and then we proceed to talk about me, she gets awed and begins to think I'm amazing, then to not appear as egocentric as I actually am, I try to divert the conversation towards more neutral topics as in life values and such. After making such a solid first impression, I tell her I have to get going but we gotta keep this conversation going. She happily offers her phone number. From there it's a couple texts, planning a time to meet up. The conversation keeps up, we still mainly talk about me cause quite frankly, my life is more interesting than hers. Eventually I kiss her, and then if I escalate properly, we fuck.

So, if I am to draw a conclusion from this, it's that in order for me to want to be with someone for a long time, they will have to be interesting and unique. Someone who can maintain my interest in them as a person but without the large sized ego that I carry. A proper relationship, in my eyes, is not just about sex and making each other feel good. It's about joining together to form a win-win situation, where being with each other makes you both stronger. Like a team. Historically speaking the best teams have a leader and an accomplice. The leader typically makes the major decisions whilst listening to advice from the accomplice. The leader also provides for the accomplice, but expects the accomplice to contribute and be their own person.

I've been doing a lot of reading on narcissism lately, which is why I've been bringing up the topic so often. If I analyzed myself correctly, I am psychoanalysts refer to as a "productive narcissist". This is not the same as "pathological narcissism" which is a personality disorder. I have an ego that is large enough to give me immense amounts of confidence, courage and persistence to take on whatever challenge I want. I also have grand visions for myself, definitely visions of grandiosity. To me, failing to make those visions happen will lead me to be extremely disappointed in myself. The world needs me to be successful, so I put a lot of pressure on myself.

However, while productive narcissists are great at changing the world and influencing people (virtually all of the CEOs of large corporations can be classified as productive narcissists), their actual personal relationships are subpar. This seems to be true for me to some extent.

So when I draw conclusions from what I just wrote, I want to keep that drive and visionary thinking, but I also want to have healthy personal relationships and find a life partner where we satisfy and make each other better.
 

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@BusinessMan

The ENTP that I worked with a little while ago was similar to you. Minus the big ego thing. He was a bit more cloaked in that respect but I could sense it there.


I'd say yes, find a girl that you are interested in initially and stop talking to the ones that you find boring. From my heavy interactions with that 1 ENTP, I was able to keep his interest (it was strictly platonic, I promise) was because I didn't divulge too much about myself too fast and maintained an aire of mystery. In stead of getting bored with that like a lot of people do, he kept wanting to know more and trying to climb over the wall I put up (I'm a very private person) but he was initially interested in my personality and we got each other a lot. He said "You are not like most girl at all, are you?" I jokingly answered "No, sir I am not".


So it seems like maybe you need to find someone who can handle your ego (and maybe even smack at it a little bit as a means of flirting), who is very interesting to draw you in and pique the hell out of your curiosity, is attractive (obviously), but who doesn't give you too much upfront and leaves something to be desired, and can stretch it out over a fair portion of time, and is constantly changing and improving themselves to avoid the monotonous and the mundane (and preferably doesn't like it find this to be a chore), but it playful enough at the right times and serious enough at the right time, but isn't too controlling AND can stand up to you when you're being an asshole, but doesn't mind being your right hand man (and actually prefers it to be that way, without you forcing her into the role), but then isn't so submissive that she comes across as weak and know when to wield her strength and force so that you two may join together as an unstoppable force. How does that sound?

Also let me add on that the woman should be able to do all ^^ those things very effortlessly, and be able to read situations and possible situations very quickly and can input what is needed and remove what isn't needed to make things flow very well and seem easy.

The ENTP that I knew seemed to attract alot of SF women (primarily esf). A lot, which makes sense because they are plentiful and they are usually attracted to the places that he goes to looking for women, but alas he figured them out really quickly and would get bored and then sleep with them and move one.

I'd say how about ENF women that are very spunky and fun but not too fun. I related a lot to what you wrote and really understood where you were coming from. That deep desire and need for closeness that the ENTP I worked with possessed was the thing that I liked about him. I would have liked him better if not for the constant pleasure seeking. He was worse off than you though. He'd been with hundreds of women by his mid 20's and while I think a part of him didn't mind it and liked it, I could sense that he was running out of steam and was almost starved for a real connection. I thought it was really sad.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
@Chipps

That description was actually spot on.

And I actually contain my narcissism fairly well. I think people perceive me as more humble than I really am due to the front I put up.
 

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@Chipps

That description was actually spot on.

And I actually contain my narcissism fairly well. I think people perceive me as more humble than I really am due to the front I put up.
Ah, well in this case that ENTP reminded me ALOT of you. His inflated ego was always humming in the background and no one else noticed it.

Glad it was spot on. The type of woman that I described would probably be more withdrawn upon first meeting a new person, or would probably stick to her group of friends, and be harder to get to. and be much harder to get to know, but worth it. :happy:
 

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So I seem to struggle in the romance area. Not in terms of finding women to have sex with. As it turns out, getting laid is actually pretty easy. My problem is that I seem to be incapable of getting emotionally attached to women. Over the last three years I've dated (keyword is date, not gotten into relationships), with around 30-40 women, with varying levels of intamacy. Closest I got to feeling something was in November, but I didn't like the way it felt, and as it turned out the feeling wasn't mutual.

I don't intend on being a player or anything, I actually want to find someone who I am heads-over-heels for, as the saying goes. But at the same time the whole concept of being so emotionally attached to a person seems so ... illogical. Everytime I even sense a hint of feeling something I find a reason to not feel it. To be fair though, I have a highly idealized version of the woman I'd like to spend my life with, and so far every single one I've spent time with haw come up short, mostly in the "she's just not that interesting" area.

I wasn't always like this. In my teenage years I had numerous crushes and became incredibly emotionally attached to girls. But now that I'm older I see those girls for how average they really are. Also worth mentioning is that after having a friekin 4 month crush on this one girl when I was 17 I finally got the balls to ask her out and got rejected. So based on this tidbit of info, I think I may have developed a defense mechanism to prevent getting rejected. Ironically the less emotion I feel for women the more action I get.

I've heard all these stories of guys who met a girl they fell in love with and fought to "win" her. I can't see myself doing that though. Because quite frankly I don't think anyone is special in terms of who they are at their core. So when a guy tells me how in love he is with his girlfriend I try to figure what's so special about her, so I ask what she does. "She bartends at a bar". Oh, to save money for school? "Yeah". Cool, does she know what she wants to do with her life? "Not really, she's stil figuring it out".

Thing is I consider myself to be pretty special and interesting. I only know one person who has goals as big as the ones I've set for myself, a dude who also happens to be an ENTP. So I think I'm a pretty interesting guy, and as is have very few friends who I can say the same about. But I don't consciously feel anything for friends. Friends are people who have a similar outlook on life who you hang out and get drunk with. Emotions aren't a part of it.

I guess what comes down to is I'd like to know what "love" feels like, but I don't understand how it's useful, or why anyone deserves my love except if they are truly amazing (I don't consider someone who brings soup to you when you're sick to be amazing. How does that make her unique?).

So... Can anyone here relate to this?
Your teenage story sounds like my current one ( *eyes widen* I have hope!). Heh, I dunno, the emotional aspect really is a pain in the ass. It is not reliable because you cannot determine if the feeling is synced between the two of you so if you go over the deep end and she does not reciprocate, you drown. If you are constantly checking for benchmarks of emotional expression on her part, you do not act yourself and she does not connect with you and you make no progress and drown. If she connects with that part of you, she does not with the other part, you drown. And that is not even including Ne feeding Fe all kinds of crap that COULD happen, freaking it out, making you rediculously nervous and killing any ability you have to communicate. In my own (limited) experiences, that concept is terrifying and irritating. Find someone you have feelings for, but I don't think head-over-heels is a good idea....stay in control to allow your thinking function to still operate.

The few times I ignored it, I really, REALLY wish I hadn't (odd...when I follow it normally, the advice is not nearly as important..stupid Ti).
 

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This shouldn't be foreign to ENTPs, it will take a thousand impressions before you settle on one. When this is applied particularly to human relationships, one can become downtrodden since humans are social creatures and have an inherent longing to belong to each other. Its depressing when you think there's nobody out there for you, but its in fact a good thing that you are rather more discerning than not.
 

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I have had this problem. I don't even wish to get them into bed if I cannot see long run potential: It seems so..... pointless. (I have heard recently that many thought I was the ultimate bachelor.... player etc..... But they couldn't have been more wrong). I like to trust and get intimate. The way that works for me is to see potential, and then just rationally decide to be with that person until it feels "wrong"... But even then not leave immediately upon slight discomfort (since such a fickle character is something I detest). I then manage to form a "bond" as I relax and grow more intimate (emotionally/relationshipwise).... That grows into love of sorts. But even then I cannot say I run around with pink butterflies circling my head... No, I (and I guess most rationals) rationalize EVERYTHING through my logic filter. Including relations. And that kills most of the emotional depth when YOU THINK OF IT. But after a while you just feel "wrong" when you don't have your trustworthy SO around. That is not just "getting used to being with someone". It is also love...

I trust a nice mind and a good heart over nice ass and bosom anytime... The mental thing is what makes me tick. Sex is secondary, although nice.... Nicer when you get to know each other....after, say, a couple of years.
 

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I can't find a statistic on this, but it would make sense to me that ENTPs get divorced more often than gen pop. I've seen that NTs hold the highest rate of divorce.
I am one of the divorced ones. But I am also fiercely lovtal and trustworthy. Even My ex still loves me. Thing is that there are so few NT and NFs around. We then marry people who do not "get us". They think we are psychopaths because we do NOT scream and break things. Because we do not give empty praise or do stuff the way parents did. Etc. in the thread about NT love I posted here years ago it also said that the second marriage statistically was w NF and lasted.
 

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@Tulipgarden @chittychitty LightNING @aef8234 @LimeDegree @SpilledMilk @vanilla_dream @PeteTheZombie @Chipps

Thanks for the responses people. The post may have come across as a tad depressive, but that's not the case. It's something I recognize in myself and am contemplating if it is something that needs be "fixed".

My normal relationships with girls goes something like this. We start talking (I usually make the interaction happen), small fluff talk to start (a skill I'm constantly improving), I find out what she does, come to the conclusion that her life is boring, and then we proceed to talk about me, she gets awed and begins to think I'm amazing, then to not appear as egocentric as I actually am, I try to divert the conversation towards more neutral topics as in life values and such. After making such a solid first impression, I tell her I have to get going but we gotta keep this conversation going. She happily offers her phone number. From there it's a couple texts, planning a time to meet up. The conversation keeps up, we still mainly talk about me cause quite frankly, my life is more interesting than hers. Eventually I kiss her, and then if I escalate properly, we fuck.

So, if I am to draw a conclusion from this, it's that in order for me to want to be with someone for a long time, they will have to be interesting and unique. Someone who can maintain my interest in them as a person but without the large sized ego that I carry. A proper relationship, in my eyes, is not just about sex and making each other feel good. It's about joining together to form a win-win situation, where being with each other makes you both stronger. Like a team. Historically speaking the best teams have a leader and an accomplice. The leader typically makes the major decisions whilst listening to advice from the accomplice. The leader also provides for the accomplice, but expects the accomplice to contribute and be their own person.

I've been doing a lot of reading on narcissism lately, which is why I've been bringing up the topic so often. If I analyzed myself correctly, I am psychoanalysts refer to as a "productive narcissist". This is not the same as "pathological narcissism" which is a personality disorder. I have an ego that is large enough to give me immense amounts of confidence, courage and persistence to take on whatever challenge I want. I also have grand visions for myself, definitely visions of grandiosity. To me, failing to make those visions happen will lead me to be extremely disappointed in myself. The world needs me to be successful, so I put a lot of pressure on myself.

However, while productive narcissists are great at changing the world and influencing people (virtually all of the CEOs of large corporations can be classified as productive narcissists), their actual personal relationships are subpar. This seems to be true for me to some extent.

So when I draw conclusions from what I just wrote, I want to keep that drive and visionary thinking, but I also want to have healthy personal relationships and find a life partner where we satisfy and make each other better.
If you over analyze you may end up considering your greatest strengths to be some sort of aberration or disease.

I too was a confirmed bachelor well into my 30s. If you hit 40 and still a virgin and living at home with mommy, then I’d start to worry. You’re doing fine, just keep rotating your biotches and one of them will eventually shine.:tongue:
 
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