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The term "incel" has always been something I've sorta shrugged off, even today, as a funny label - an oversimplified definition/tag for a much bigger and complex issue affecting westernized or developed nations. I still think it's still a bit early to really define cause-and-effect of it all. In my opinion, at this stage it would sorta be like grabbing a hold of the tail and talking about the tail as if were the entire animal. What are your opinions on the term, origins, and effect of this phenomena in developed nations? What does it signify and where do you think it comes from? How has your opinion on the topic changed if at all?


 

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Well, Incel stands for involuntarily celibate, and It's usualy a self-idenified term, which typicaly stems to blame their virginity or lack of sex in life on woman, but the actual result was him mistreatening women which is sexism and misogyny. Unfortunately, words like this one, or "Red-pill" as an alternatve, becomes the favorite label or insult for Internet trolls to use when faced with differenating opinion.
 

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A word I'll never use. I could get rid of my cock, and probably won't miss it in a century. Maybe except the ability to piss while standing.
 

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I think it was probably started more like a support group, but because of sexism it became more like an echo chamber.

And then it was infiltrated by white nationalists, who just take anything remotely decent and turn it into their propaganda machine to churn out their own sheep shit.

Idk--I guess it's what happens when you take something that should be more of a support group and you turn it into something designed to be profitable for other parties (those who profit off the websites or from trying to recruit). At some point it was mismanaged. But I don't have a lot of personal experience with incels or the boards.

I didn't watch the video but single mothers tend to face a lot of financial hardship (you know...making less than men on average and also having to care for another dependent--it's a huge financial burden for some) and then they also don't have the social and emotional benefit of having another parent there to help raise the child (so the emotional and just personal-energy is less too). So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys who lack social skills and end up turning to incel communities came from an environment in which they had a parent who was financially taxed beyond what most people experience, and/or also emotionally and socially unable to provide the best they could to their kid.

Ugh--that's getting a bit too far into it for me, to look at things like whether single mothers experience abuse more (or whether abuse is accompanied by sexist beliefs of the father or community). Or whether it's the absence of the positive male role model. Idk--I think young men can have problems with socializing with women and end up being drawn to the incel community for other reasons, but maybe since it's so sexist now--it's the ones who grew up around sexism and abuse towards women (and lack of positive male role model) who would end up staying in it? I still think it's probably kind of like a cult though in that something is going on more than just being pre-disposed to it.
 

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Well, the whole thing of self-defined 'good' guys full of entitlement and aggression was already common long before the internet came along. Like with many things, I think the internet has just allowed refinement and amplification of something that was already there. And the internet holds a footprint, so it's more visible in that sense as well.

From the little I've seen of the more extreme forms of it, it seems almost like a shared psychosis to me. The insistence on forms of underlying 'reality' that they base their hate on seems to meet the clinical criteria. Speaking as a layperson, that is.

I always question psychosis that too-conveniently always seems to align with the persons personal wants and convenience though. Again, not a psych of any kind, but I recently watched a family member struggle with a true involuntary psychosis for a while. He couldn't choose or control it. He couldn't shed it when it was making him suffer, and he did suffer. It wasn't compatible with his interests, and under its influence he did things that were harmful to his own self and his own actual wants.

There was no benefit to him in being sick. It harmed him. By contrast the two people who'd made him sick 'thought' the things they were feeding him as the 'truth' because they wanted to do it. To me that seems like a closer fit to a lot of the incel garbage. Some of it is clearly 'delusional', but I don't think it's involuntary.
 

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AKA Ignorance.
No. I wouldn’t call it ignorant, it’s okay for him to hold those views. As long as he conducts himself to the same standard and isn’t a hypocrite, I don’t see the issue.
Honestly, it seems his biggest fault is his lack of confidence. I would tell him to start working out, and focusing on improving himself. Women can generally tell when you are desperate, and can smell it a mile away. Hell, so can most guys.
 

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No. I wouldn’t call it ignorant, it’s okay for him to hold those views. As long as he conducts himself to the same standard and isn’t a hypocrite, I don’t see the issue.
Honestly, it seems his biggest fault is his lack of confidence. I would tell him to start working out, and focusing on improving himself. Women can generally tell when you are desperate, and can smell it a mile away. Hell, so can most guys.
You probably aren't one (obviously), but views like this (bolded part) create a pipeline to manipulation and the kind of stuff PUA's push.

It's a form of ignorance based on patriarchal notions that seek to generalize what women think and want.
 

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The video barely even mentions incels, but regardless I would say its title is untrue: I don't think you can blame this phenomenon on single mothers. Well, perhaps it can be a contributing factor: a child who grows up with two parents (assuming they have a healthy relationship) will witness every day how people interact when they're in a relationship. They know from experience that it's not just one big ruse by the female to extract utility out of the male only to dispose of him after all the resources have been squeezed out of him, but that it's a bond based on mutual respect and trust. I think it's not an unreasonable assumption that someone who grew up in such an environment is less likely to be susceptible to the arguments made by the kind of people you'll encounter in incel communities. Whatever part it might play however, there are surely other reasons why certain young men develop these ideas.

As was already mentioned, the internet seems to have amplified a phenomenon that already existed, so it can't be blamed entirely either, but I do think it ought to be recognized just how toxic these online communities can be. When the conversation around incels first started a few years ago, I visited one of these places out of morbid curiosity, and it was much worse than I had anticipated. I think it was youtuber Contrapoints who once referred to incel communities as "death cults" and frankly that's really not that much of an exaggeration: from what I can tell, many young men in those communities initially did not have such extreme ideas—certainly not to the same extent—but primarily joined out of loneliness and frustration... but they are easily dragged down into an ideological swamp. Other members constantly reinforce the idea that their case really is hopeless, that they're genetically predisposed to be alone forever and that the reason is because women (all of them) only want x or y out of relationships—traits that they fundamentally lack. The theories these guys have crafted are very elaborate, and they can "reason" their way out of every seeming contradition in their ideology. Essentially, when you join an incel community, you are presented with thousands of pieces of "evidence" that prove you are actually a worthless human being undeserving of being loved, and female nature is to blame.
Moreoever, those communities are outright hostile against anyone who tries to inject even a modicum of positivity into the conversation or tries to put things in perspective, such as the suggestion by @ImpossibleHunt5 to work our and focus on self improvement. Saying something like that on an incel forum will IME result in an instant ban. The result is a completely fatalistic downward spiral that lonely young men can get sucked into if they're not careful.
 

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You probably aren't one (obviously), but views like this (bolded part) create a pipeline to manipulation and the kind of stuff PUA's push.

It's a form of ignorance based on patriarchal notions that seek to generalize what women think and want.
Working out, developing hobbies, etc, is to improve his own confidence first and foremost, and is not about generalizing what women want. People (in general) are naturally attracted to people who are comfortable in their own skin, and have their own goals and ambitions (outside of finding a relationship). I want more guys to focus on themsleves and to improve on their own well-being and happiness, and put finding a relationship on the back-burner. Things like that will happen naturally, and like I've said before, people (men and women) generally don't like people who are emotionally desperate.
I couldn't care less what pick-up artists say, and it is up to the individual to sort out what is right and wrong. I can't control what people believe in. But if me and pick-up artists agree on a some common truth, then I guess that is how it is.

This isn't a partiarchal notion, and claiming it is can be noted as a generalization on your part. Telling guys to improve themselves (while having standards for the women they want to date) is not an attitude created to control women. If guys can hold themselvs to a better standard, they may end up picking better women to be with. The men will be happy with themselves, lots of women will be happy to be with guys who have values, morals, ambitions, and good character. With enough time, people will look up to these individuals, and strive to be more like them, creating (hopefully) a better future full of better people for everyone.

I think throwing away all of that information just because you deem it as patricarchal is a bit short-sighted, just because you are afraid of some sleazy pick-up artists.
 

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In regards to incels, I think more people should strive to understand where they are coming from, and instead of looking down on them and making fun of them, we should try and help them. I may not fully agree with incels on what they have to say (I agree with a few points, but not the conclusion they draw from it), but I can at least understand how they are feeling.

Many of these people are incredibly isolated and alone, and many of them haven't been properly taught (or have seen) how healthy relationships work. I can understand the impact of isolation, it drags you into a deep, dark hole in the ground and refuses to let go. It brings out the worst in you, and the only way out is positive enocuragement from others. In some circumstances, I find social mockery to be a healthy form of punishment. For example, if you cheat on a spouse, I hope society hangs you out on a noose for everyone to see.

But many of these "incels" have nowhere else to go, and mainly the people who call themselves tolerant and preach tolerance, are the first to cast their stones at them whenever they speak about their points of view. I also find that many of the arguments against incels, don't actually debunk their points or help them, but just serve to make the individual feel better than them. Many people who actively make fun of incels, are pushing them into these echo chambers, and then wondering why there is such a rise in toxic behaviour and ideologies.

I am not a huge fan of incel groups because they don't come up with any solutions, similar to what Cephalonimbus stated. They are focused on ideology, and similar to any echo-chamber, they are not so welcome to outside ideas.

But if we, as a society, can have ways to support (not socially isolate and ridicule) people such as these, before they join echo chambers on the internet and become much harder to get in touch with, I believe we may see an improvement. They actually may have someone who understands them, maybe for the first time in their lives. I think people can underestimate how much good that can do.

I think Joker (2019) perfectly describes this phenomenon. Lots of people are so quick to pretend they are tolerant and good people, but when they see someone who is "inferior" to them, they will quickly cast them away, or stomp them into the ground. People then act surprised when individuals start lashing out, getting inside echo-chambers (because nobody else wants to listen to their points of view) and calling others hypocrites. It's not good or moral behaviour, but I am certainly not suprised, because they are human too.

If in one hand, you claim to support and be tolerant of other ideas, but in other, you push people who are clearly desperate and force them into their own echo-chambers because you don't have the empathy to understand them, then you get what you deserve.
 

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I don't see how the single mom dynamic connects with incels. It DEFINITELY leads to men who are likely to have troublesome relationships with women, that is very true though. A single mom who has hard time reinforcing rules while raising a boy and no strong male role model to assist is most certainly likely to create an adult man who lies, manipulate and essentially shows very little respect for women.

But that's not what an incel is. Incels are just lonely guys who have a hard time getting laid or developing social/affectionate bonds with women. If anything they can easily come from an overbearing soccer mom, but I don't believe there's any correlation.

I think the father is actually the most likely culprit here. Probably someone who ignored them, didn't foster their interests so the eventual incel just feels like a hallow shell of a man who has nothing to offer women, so they seek escapism in typical introverted activities.

I know today's society frowns upon fathers who teach their boys to become ''men'', but I think it's actually essential. It's the just the definition that is negatively spun by the more extreme left, wherein they see ''being a man'' means being an aggressive jerk who never takes no for an answer and essentially treats women as pieces of meat (aka toxic masculinity). When in actuality being a men means developing your inner strength and confidence as well as putting emphasis on positive traits such a loyalty, assertiveness, work ethics etc.
 

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"Help the people who want to kill you for not sleeping with them." Yah, a lot of women (and men) have tried to help these motherfuckers. To think that they haven't received help is beyond laugable. Quite a few Incel victims were people they knew. Their violent misogyny exists despite having mostly kind and caring people around them which they reject, or have rejected. Also, victim blaming of incel victims. Fuck off. "I've been relentlessly bullied for who I am all of my life, and people should be empathic to me or I shall join a group of violent misogynists and threaten acts of violence, or just look the other way when others threaten violence or glorify murderers." Yah... That level of brain malfunction does not even compute.

Sometimes, some people are beyond help and you just have to ostracize them and refuse to accept them as part of a civilized society.

I'm also tired of people conflating your average non-violent person that just can't get anyone to sleep with them is also an Incel especially considering that that group in particular as moved well past simple dialogue. If you're not violent, don't agree with violent misogyny or dehumanization of women and don't belong to groups where inceldom is glorified, then you're probably not an incel and are able to be helped.

But Incels in particular seek out violent rhetoric and can't seem to let it go. If your response to not finding someone to have sex with you is "murder!" Then no amount of kindness will prevent you from being a violent misogynist. No one pushes someone to be violent unless they're already capable of it and make excuses afterwards. It's like the abusive husband that says "well, you made me do it". We do NOT accept that in civilized society.

I support gulags and concentration camps for Incels - especially the ones that are flooding groups with violent rhetoric and use "freedom of speech" to avoid being deplatformed as they continue to glorify violent mysoginy. Every capitalist organization that refuses to deplatform these groups, knowing full well that being part of the group alone encourages and motivates violence within their ranks is complicit and should be held to higher standards.

"Here's a bunch of violent people with violent ideas, let's be nice to them". I can't eye-roll harder.

Again, I'd say Fuck them .. but that ain't happening.
 

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"Help the people who want to kill you for not sleeping with them." Yah, a lot of women (and men) have tried to help these motherfuckers. To think that they haven't received help is beyond laugable. Quite a few Incel victims were people they knew. Their violent misogyny exists despite having mostly kind and caring people around them which they reject, or have rejected. Also, victim blaming of incel victims. Fuck off. "I've been relentlessly bullied for who I am all of my life, and people should be empathic to me or I shall join a group of violent misogynists and threaten acts of violence, or just look the other way when others threaten violence or glorify murderers." Yah... That level of brain malfunction does not even compute.

Sometimes, some people are beyond help and you just have to ostracize them and refuse to accept them as part of a civilized society.

I'm also tired of people conflating your average non-violent person that just can't get anyone to sleep with them is also an Incel especially considering that that group in particular as moved well past simple dialogue. If you're not violent, don't agree with violent misogyny or dehumanization of women and don't belong to groups where inceldom is glorified, then you're probably not an incel and are able to be helped.

But Incels in particular seek out violent rhetoric and can't seem to let it go. If your response to not finding someone to have sex with you is "murder!" Then no amount of kindness will prevent you from being a violent misogynist. No one pushes someone to be violent unless they're already capable of it and make excuses afterwards. It's like the abusive husband that says "well, you made me do it". We do NOT accept that in civilized society.

I support gulags and concentration camps for Incels - especially the ones that are flooding groups with violent rhetoric and use "freedom of speech" to avoid being deplatformed as they continue to glorify violent mysoginy. Every capitalist organization that refuses to deplatform these groups, knowing full well that being part of the group alone encourages and motivates violence within their ranks is complicit and should be held to higher standards.

"Here's a bunch of violent people with violent ideas, let's be nice to them". I can't eye-roll harder.

Again, I'd say Fuck them .. but that ain't happening.
How do you know they have recieved proper help? You seem pretty sure of something you have no way of confirming. It seems to me that most of the "help" they recieve is getting verbally blasted by the internet, while being presented with no other alternatives besides being called a "misogynist" and violent. If you think that is help, I hope you are never in their shoes.

Some people may very well be beyond help, but who are you to decide? You seem to potray incels as intentionally generalizing what women desire (which in many cases, is correct), but it seems you are doing the exact same thing as they are. You are generalizing incels to be people who are violent when they don't get what they want. You and I both know that this is not true for the vast majority of them, and I don't know about you, but I don't generalize the actions of the majority based on what the minority do.

I think anyone who incites violence or commits it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but people who are innocent are innocent until proven guilty. They have just as much right as you to say what they feel is correct; that is what free speech is. For example, I don't agree with pretty much anything you are saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it. I wish you'd extend the same standard for incels as well, and offer them advice they can actually use, instead of labels they can simply cast away and ignore.

Deplatforming them will not make the issue go away, it will make it worse.You can eye-roll as much as you want, but when you give people no outlet to vent their frustrations peacefully and through dialouge (no matter how much you and I disagree with it), some people will see no other option. That's human nature, people are violent when you push them to be. You thinking that will go away because you simply ban people from speaking about the issue, is a pretty juvenile way of thinking.
 

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The term "incel" has always been something I've sorta shrugged off, even today, as a funny label - an oversimplified definition/tag for a much bigger and complex issue affecting westernized or developed nations. I still think it's still a bit early to really define cause-and-effect of it all. In my opinion, at this stage it would sorta be like grabbing a hold of the tail and talking about the tail as if were the entire animal. What are your opinions on the term, origins, and effect of this phenomena in developed nations? What does it signify and where do you think it comes from? How has your opinion on the topic changed if at all?


It sounds to me like a few horny boys who want to have sex but have no idea how to get it. They don't seem to want or know how to take the time or make the effort to learn how to talk to a woman, let alone have sex with them. Instead of blaming themselves for their lack of action, they blame everyone else, including the women.
 
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