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One of the interesting hallmarks -that seems to get missed - is the obsessively exclusive focus on sex and just sex; nothing else. Even the polemic about women's so called failures of depth, taste, etc, only seem to be defined as an issue 'because' they prevent the complainant from getting laid.

This isn't poor me because I'm lonely or I'm insecure or life is hard or I don't have any friends. It's all about docking their dicks. And pretty much nothing else.

This in itself seems a bit off kilter to me. Yes I know; men plus hormones plus youth. I still stand by this though - precisely because every unpartnered man on the planet isn't obsessed about this near-mythologized notion of sex, as something that supposedly has all this additional meaning tied in to it. The incel content I've seen does seem to make almost a fetish of it, in the literal anthropologist's sense of 'fetish'.

That right there makes me suspect that all/any discourse about addressing an assumed underlying emotional problem might be aimed at a mark that is not even there. Possibly all these young men are using 'sex' as a macho-flavoured code word for what they actually want. But I don't think so somehow. Social connection on various levels isn't that hard to come by. And I've known men who did really see sex as a shorthand for various emotional needs - acceptance, affection, security, status, to name just a few. It didn't cripple their capacity to interact 'normally' with women or distort their perception of us, when everyone had their clothes on.

Definitely part of growing up is dealing with ideas like:
  • much/most of life is lived alone, whether you're partnered or not.
  • the massively overwhelming majority of your gender-of-choice are not going to sleep with you.
-the massive majority of most people's time is spent not having sex
- and it's fine.

So clearly something is wrong. But the roots of the fetish. ... Dunno.
 

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It sounds to me like a few horny boys who want to have sex but have no idea how to get it. They don't seem to want or know how to take the time or make the effort to learn how to talk to a woman, let alone have sex with them. Instead of blaming themselves for their lack of action, they blame everyone else, including the women.
They do blame themselves at least at first, but at the same time that self blame is then turned into outwards rage by the community. As well as apologists that think they're just misunderstood little boys. In essence they're just sexually frustrated violent men. That's it. There's not much else there after having spent enough time with other extremists.
 

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I mostly blame the economy for crippling young people and not having much support frameworks in place.
I know I've thrown away the idea I'll be able to have a wife or kids.
The desire for sex remains while a desire for love and companionship has just dwindled into disillusionment and no real hope.
Some people direct their frustrations in the wrong directions unfortunately.

I can't help but notice the similar phenomenon of Hikkikomori in Japan, although that's expressed somewhat differently to incels in the west due to culture - seemingly less sex obsession but still comes from a main sense of worthlessness, pressure to succeed and a lack of connection within a highly competitive modern corporate societies that are deteriorating and leaving people behind.
Men and increasing amounts of women are retreating from that high-stress type of society. The west is beginning to realize this phenomenon is spreading here too.

People focus on the extreme incels to the extent it takes away from the issues at place that do need addressing.
 

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This whole ''incels are violent'' thing is actually a fallacy. We're just focused on those who lost their minds and went on a shooting spree.

That being said, yes, they will develop misogynistic tendencies if their issues are not addressed. And like I said earlier, public speakers like Jordan Peterson who drill them that their woes are all because of this rise in feminism, doesn't help at all.

I actually think this current feminism wave is actually.....kind of annoying? As it's not so much a way to discuss women and equality but rather pushing a ''Men fucking suck!'' agenda.

Problem is, I'm mature enough to understand where this sentiment stems from, whereas an incel sees it as validation to their own self-created misery.

The funny thing though, is that their hatred should be directed towards ''alpha'' or good looking men. Like if they're gonna go on a shooting spree, it should be in an all-male gym. But they're obviously too chicken shit to confront them with their tribal bicep tattoos and all so it probably feels safer to focus their hatred directly to hot women.
 

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People focus on the extreme incels to the extent it takes away from the issues at place that do need addressing.
Unh. What are you talking about? There are literally GLOBAL anti-capitalist protests going on right now - which are precisely only happening in order to stop people from feeling alienated from the corporatized structure of the world. There are help lines, support groups, communities everywhere that are filled with empathic and kind individuals supporting one another. I would know, I'm in dozens myself. There are social movements happening to address massive global issues like hunger, joblessness, racism, transphobia - what have you. Things don't happen unless people fight for change too you know.

That's part and parcel of the incel problem too though. They don't even want to acknowledge or recognize what's being done or what exists for support because of this woe is me attitude and then it eventually morphs into violent misogyny (especially if a bunch of them get together in communities that glorify violence) because of a simple failure to move beyond and outside of oneself to see the world around oneself.

I actually think this current feminism wave is actually.....kind of annoying? As it's not so much a way to discuss women and equality but rather pushing a ''Men fucking suck!'' agenda.
I would say that the majority of men - especially the ones who control the world and refuse to change because society is designed to benefit them and only them - do indeed suck. That's just a fact.
 

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Unh. What are you talking about? There are literally GLOBAL anti-capitalist protests going on right now - which are precisely only happening in order to stop people from feeling alienated from the corporatized structure of the world. There are help lines, support groups, communities everywhere that are filled with empathic and kind individuals supporting one another. I would know, I'm in dozens myself. There are social movements happening to address massive global issues like hunger, joblessness, racism, transphobia - what have you. Things don't happen unless people fight for change too you know.

That's part and parcel of the incel problem too though. They don't even want to acknowledge or recognize what's being done or what exists for support because of this woe is me attitude and then it eventually morphs into violent misogyny (especially if a bunch of them get together in communities that glorify violence) because of a simple failure to move beyond and outside of oneself to see the world around oneself.
Yeah? I'm not surprised any anti-capitalist protests would be happening based on what I said.
The system is inhospitable to poor people, which does include people who'd fall under the incel label. To try and help the alienated is to try and help these people as well.
People create their own support groups when they feel there's a lack of support offered in outside society. So of course people are lashing out at capitalism or other things. I'm just saying many other people choose to retreat inwards and slowly kill themselves instead.
And with incels in particular, their existence just gets vilified since people tend to only focus on that group's extremes. I do hate that the group was co-opted by a bunch of scumbags, and now it's harder to be taken seriously or not be viewed as some type of apologist for bad behaviour when talking about issues of sexual alienation and other similar problems that just so happen to be shared with bad people.


Incels or people who share a similar problem probably do seem all "woe is me," but if that's the view others are going to take towards whatever is causing them grief, then that's part of why they'll shut inwards or turn to anonymous online groups who --- while are often toxic ---- will at least give them the feeling like they're actually being listened to and empathized with to some degree. That can mean the difference for whether someone goes down a path of radicalization or not.


Besides, even if there are some good support groups out there (I don't doubt it), like with many males who suffer from depression and social anxiety, there's a tendency to want to completely avoid seeking emotional support and be vulnerable like that.
It's not necessarily unacknowledged. I know things like helplines exist, obviously.
Yet I've never felt any desire to use one, even when I've been on the edge of killing myself.
Often guys in a position like this won't get any good help unless someone like the parents or some other person cares enough about their well-being to act as a bridge towards getting them into support.
 

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Yeah? I'm not surprised any anti-capitalist protests would be happening based on what I said.
The system is inhospitable to poor people, which does include people who'd fall under the incel label. To try and help the alienated is to try and help these people as well.
People create their own support groups when they feel there's a lack of support offered in outside society. So of course people are lashing out at capitalism. I'm just saying many other people choose to retreat inwards and slowly kill themselves instead.
And with incels in particular, their existence just gets vilified since people tend to focus on the group's extremes. I do hate that the group was co-opted by a bunch of scumbags, and now it's harder to be taken seriously or not be viewed as some type of apologist for bad behaviour when talking about issues of sexual alienation and other similar problems that just so happen to be shared with bad people.


Incels or people who share a similar problem probably do seem all "woe is me," but if that's the view others are going to take towards whatever is causing them grief, then that's part of why they'll shut inwards or turn to anonymous online groups who --- while are often toxic ---- will at least give them the feeling like they're actually being listened to and empathized with to some degree. That can mean the difference for whether someone goes down a path of radicalization or not.


Besides, even if there are some good support groups out there (I don't doubt it), like with many males who suffer from depression and social anxiety, there's a tendency to want to completely avoid seeking emotional support and be vulnerable like that.
It's not necessarily that it's unacknowledged. I know things like helplines exist, obviously.
Yet I've never felt any desire to use one, even when I've been on the edge of killing myself.
Often guys in a position like this won't get any good help unless someone like the parents or some other person cares enough about their well-being to act as a bridge towards getting them into support.
You don't even realize how much you proved my point in your post about how even when there's help out there, incel types simply either ignore it, refuse it, reject it, or demand that people literally bend over to force help upon them. That might work for some people, sure and some peopel do get that.

At the same time, I've also seen incel types literally victimize, bully, harass and abuse people who are genuinely interested in helping them and did try to "force" their help. I've experienced it as well. You can't force help on some people at all because they tend to have a preconceived notion of what help they want, and even a slight deviation from that makes them think absolutely nothing is being done. Some people are just straight up abusers and use their victimization to constantly, constantly abuse/harass others and a lot of them end up in incel groups and when that sort of negative abusive energy and group think collide, you have extremism.
 

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You don't even realize how much you proved my point in your post about how even when there's help out there, incel types simply either ignore it, refuse it, reject it, or demand that people literally bend over to force help upon them. That might work for some people, sure and some peopel do get that.

At the same time, I've also seen incel types literally victimize, bully, harass and abuse people who are genuinely interested in helping them and did try to "force" their help. I've experienced it as well. You can't force help on some people at all because they tend to have a preconceived notion of what help they want, and even a slight deviation from that makes them think absolutely nothing is being done. Some people are just straight up abusers and use their victimization to constantly, constantly abuse/harass others and a lot of them end up in incel groups and when that sort of negative abusive energy and group think collide, you have extremism.
Because I'm not even trying to disprove your point on that.
I'm trying to explain why people self-isolate and may not seek help that may be out there beyond some toxic internet forums.

I'm sure you have seen that. I have too.
Some people are bad, some people can't be helped, sure. It's not like you're going to get a disagreement with me on that. But I'd rather focus on the people who can be helped. I'd like to think I can be helped anyway.
 

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But I'd rather focus on the people who can be helped. I'd like to think I can be helped anyway.
You have your focus. I have mine.

Pretty sure potential victims of violent crimes by insular groups that can be and should be deplatformed - at the very least - will save lives.

A lot of incels that are coming out of those groups have also endorsed this idea that those groups have a violent element to them which needs addressing. It can't be left alone.
 

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You have your focus. I have mine.

Pretty sure potential victims of violent crimes by insular groups that can be and should be deplatformed - at the very least - will save lives.

A lot of incels that are coming out of those groups have also endorsed this idea that those groups have a violent element to them which needs addressing. It can't be left alone.
Sure it should be addressed, but I don't know what deplatforming will accomplish really. It's not going to stop incels from existing, moving elsewhere or feeling the way they do, nor take away an actual violent person's tendencies.
 

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Sure it should be addressed, but I don't know what deplatforming will achieve exactly. It's not going to stop incels from existing or feeling the way they do, or take away an actual violent person's tendencies.
No, but it could prevent those who may not be inspired to violence be inspired.

It's also not just about physical violence and murders. I dunno if you've infiltrated incel groups or not, but based on my research, they don't just promote physical violence (which is obviously the worst), but also promote an ideological framework that is deeply rooted in violent misogyny - where they then go out and act out their rage against women in their immediate vicinity ... then post back on the incel forums for appreciation and validation. They get their dopamine from becoming violent misogynists when initially it was just not being able to have sex.

The transformation happens within the groups. You deplatform all incel groups, and you reduce this sort of thing happening.

Would you argue against deplatforming any other group that has a violence problem? What about the KKK? Taliban? Anti-abortion groups - which have a serious violence problem as well? What is wrong with deplatforming?
 

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No, but it could prevent those who may not be inspired to violence be inspired.

It's also not just about physical violence and murders. I dunno if you've infiltrated incel groups or not, but based on my research, they don't just promote physical violence (which is obviously the worst), but also promote an ideological framework that is deeply rooted in violent misogyny - where they then go out and act out their rage against women in their immediate vicinity ... then post back on the incel forums for appreciation and validation. They get their dopamine from becoming violent misogynists when initially it was just not being able to have sex.

The transformation happens within the groups. You deplatform all incel groups, and you reduce this sort of thing happening.

Would you argue against deplatforming any other group that has a violence problem? What about the KKK? Taliban? Anti-abortion groups - which have a serious violence problem as well? What is wrong with deplatforming?
I wouldn't deplatform those groups either, unless they are inciting violence or committing verifiable crimes. It has to be on a case by case basis, not based on a ideological framework.

The Taliban is a political group that regularly incites and commits violence in the name of political and religious ideals. Deplatforming them is sensible.
The KKK is largely a redundant group. Most of the time they are just wallowing in self-pity, and while they display racism, it is something people can just ignore. That's how they lose their power, when people don't care anymore. Racism isn't a crime (except in cases such as employment, or scenarios similar to that), and unless they are planning to commit violence, they shouldn't be banned either. This isn't the 19th century anymore. People should be able to decide whether to hear them out or not.
Most Anti-abortion groups are not violent. It depends which one you are talking about, as generalizing all of them is unfair. Are you talking about the Army of God attack in 1982? If that happened today and they were inciting violence, then I would argue that they should be deplatformed. But if you categorizing anti-abortion groups as having a "violence problem", when almost all of the attacks were committed by singular individuals (who were swiftly punished by the law after being caught), I don't think anti-abortion groups should be deplatformed on that principle alone.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you can't control what people think. Your argument is pretty flimsy, and can be bent to serve any agenda. By your criteria, I can say that Black Lives Matter (a group I believe you probably support based on your signature, and your description) should be deplatformed because of the riots. Of course, I know that BLM do not support the riots (at least openly), but because certain individuals used the situation to steal, loot, and commit violence; by your standard Black Lives Matter should be held accountable.
I think it's a pretty juvenile way of thinking. I don't deny that you probably have good intentions, but your agumentation does not allow peaceful discourse to happen. It will just divide people into groups based on ideology, and then they will tar and feather each other until they don't know the other side is made up of actual human beings. I believe that this methodology is largely the reason why society is getting worse, rather than better.

Ideologies don't go away because they are deplatformed. If anything, you'll just make them even angrier. You will justify their claims that they are being pushed away from society, and their ideological framework will just sprout somewhere else, and with a lot more movement behind it. Deplatforming doesn't solve the issue.

Instead, if you try to understand someone else's position and point of view before they lock themselves inside an echo chamber, you might be able to see a change in behaviour before any crimes occur. But that is just my prediction.
 

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No, but it could prevent those who may not be inspired to violence be inspired.

It's also not just about physical violence and murders. I dunno if you've infiltrated incel groups or not, but based on my research, they don't just promote physical violence (which is obviously the worst), but also promote an ideological framework that is deeply rooted in violent misogyny - where they then go out and act out their rage against women in their immediate vicinity ... then post back on the incel forums for appreciation and validation. They get their dopamine from becoming violent misogynists when initially it was just not being able to have sex.

The transformation happens within the groups. You deplatform all incel groups, and you reduce this sort of thing happening.

Would you argue against deplatforming any other group that has a violence problem? What about the KKK? Taliban? Anti-abortion groups - which have a serious violence problem as well? What is wrong with deplatforming?
Well if someone actually goes out and commits harassment then I'm all for them getting arrested.

I'm not a big fan of cancel culture or deplatforming typically. I can envision a scenario where it could be turned around and used against me or the left, so I'm cautious about such uses of power. I'd rather bad ideals be de-legitimized through making better arguments and making society improve its socioeconomic systems so people will feel less reasons to be hateful or even violent.

I can understand banning certain incel groups or people who frequently allow or advocate violence or harassment (goes for any group really), but I'm certainly not for deplatforming all incel groups as some all-encompassing rule. That's just authoritarian. Trying to shut people up you don't like and push their issues under the rug as if they don't exist anymore because you removed a platform. It doesn't help things to further alienate an already alienated group of people.
 

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I think some of the incels may have a problem with rigid thinking--or rigid thinking could make people more vulnerable to a group like incels. Maybe other mental health issues as well like depression.

People like this could benefit most from getting therapy or counseling specifically designed to help them learn how to socialize better (and all the incels could probably do with some cognitive behavioral therapy), but the nature of the incel group perpetuates isolation because instead of encouraging people to seek help it feeds them the same negative and flawed ideas that keep them self-isolating (and avoiding practicing or improving their social skills--or getting alternate perspectives from outside the incel community).

Then the sexism adds another layer of perpetuation and self-defeat, as it alienates them further from having any kind of normal interaction with women and non-sexists, and increasing the chances that those interactions will be negative.

I think this video was already shared by another member before, but I think it's well made.

It seems like a toxic community.

And it attracts needy people who end up suffering from its influence. It's a terrible influence and I feel bad for a lot of incels for this reason.
 

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I'm not familiar with the term, but if it's associated with PUA, like think-tanks, they had a sole interest to create division between the sexes, and at the same time profit from their own sub-communities.

There was a lot of misinformation perpetuated I remember back in the late 90s when PUA started gaining momentum, which seems to have also influenced this type of community, which is essentially male chauvinism.

Neil Strauss was one of the founding leaders (and his books were very popular- he even had it dubbed in a very highly masculine voice that narrated tips on how to treat women like cattle). I can see why most, if not all women find him repulsive (his lady is likely only with him for his money- instead of using the term incel to describe PUA culture, I would say they were plain sexist, and the attitude it perpetuated truly has destroyed many potentially amazing relationships, especially among st the millennial age group).

I avoid dating altogether, because of PUA (male violence on female dating), and if incels are a byproduct of it, I don't blame the majority of women who avoid dating either because of it. It is highly toxic, demeaning, offensive, and something to the nature and byproduct of hateful propaganda.

Ladies Beware:

...And guys too. Dating isn't that complicated, and toss out the book The Rules (female equivalent of incels? they're annoying).
 

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For the record, I would like to point out that the Asian girl in the video looks like an absolute nutter in comparison. The way she's strolled in with a notepad looking like she's a professional conducting an interview, only to roll her eyes at everything he says, in an attempt to sway a perceived audience with her body language. She probably went home that day mentally affixing this young lad central to her generalized view of white men whom she thinks are all things wrong with the world. Intolerant and judgmental, sympathetic without justification, lacking the introspective qualities of her counterpart. Clearly, he's a moron, but she's an even bigger moron, and a detriment to her own cause is what I'm saying. I hope these two opposing groups can one day be tossed unto an island together, where they must eat each other to stay alive. I would watch that over Robinson Crusoe.
 

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Sure it should be addressed, but I don't know what deplatforming will accomplish really.
So... Going back to my point about shared psychosis. The clinical 'cure' is to separate the parties. The 'donor' might never improve - IDK about that side of it. But the recipient frequently does. It's literally a transmitted condition.

shrug physical distancing cuts down the chances for the coronavirus to find new hosts. Same thing. The sickness isn't the celibacy. That isn't going to vanish. The fixable part of the picture is the demonstrably delusional views about both why they are celibate and what should be done to fix it.
 

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I don't know. I used to have such laid out ideas on this. Then, one of my closest friends (who I met through my husband but became really close with also) opened up to me that he used to have a lot of misogynistic ideas because of reading incel stuff (which began as a curiosity). He got a pretty negative world view, and very depressed and believed the worst about people. And like it wasn't great.

He doesn't believe these things anymore, but some dogmatic things are difficult to shake off. It's really cult like in some of its methods (like having people brainwash themselves).

It's been years and he's still working through some of the ideologies. And apparently our friendship has been pretty positive in his life.

It's a bit odd as he's conventionally attractive and doesn't have an issue dating or anything.

so all of that to say: I think a lot of the ideology is harmful. That doesn't make someone falling for it a bad person though. Still, people are responsible for their actions and emotions. We probably wouldn't have been such good friends if we met at the height of it, and that's quite sad because it's someone I very much want in my and my husband's life forever.
 

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A Great analysis:

I wasn't too familiar with the term, but I noticed (especially amongst the younger guys) a level of "commanding sex."

It's a subculture, and living out here in SoCal, I definitely have run across a few. They act very entitled. First they strike up a conversation (very forced), and an uncharming appeal, and then they get very disrespectful if you don't show a level of interest, immediately.

Incel is an actual group of young men and women who truly think sex is a God given right to them (that is a mental disorder right there). You can't go around demanding/commanding sex, and covertly/overtly so. That is rapist mentality.
 
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