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Which one has been more problematic for you?

I read somewhere that INFPs are frustrated by indecisiveness and INFJs by idealism and perfectionism, do you see any difference between them?
 

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Which one has been more problematic for you?

I read somewhere that INFPs are frustrated by indecisiveness and INFJs by idealism and perfectionism, do you see any difference between them?
Perfectionism is too much decision, to stick to one objective, to ignore open possibilities. Indecisiveness is to refuse to stick, an avoidance of commitment and work. I see them sides of a coin. Antipodes to one another, in a way. Both are expressions of discontent.
 

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The terms are too broad and fuzzy to deal with. So-called "indecisiveness" can often be simply an information-gathering stage of a decision-making process. Foolish people who dote on shallow snap decisions mud-sling by terming "considering the facts" prior to making an informed decision as being "indecision." Such people would do well to try "considering the facts" now and then.

As to "Perfectionism":

Perfect.jpg

Are INFJs really "perfectionists" as the term is generally used? I'm sure not. I'm content with roughing things out to make a good preparatory foundation, not trying to build Rome in a day. Idealists, yes; Perfectionists, no.
 

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They do feed into each other but I'm definitely a perfectionist. I am not an indecisive person and I have never been.

If I ever appear indecisive, which is very understandable I think, it's because I'm trying to decide which route is perfect. But I'm not suffering from the inability to make a decision. INFPs and INFJs can share in both these struggles so I wouldn't blanket all INFJs as one and not the other despite my experience reflecting such. And I've definitely met more INFPs who I'd say were indecisive than INFJs, though they did have behaviours which indicated perfectionism also, but to a lesser degree.

The way I differ from most INFJs would likely be influenced by my being a 1 enneagram - the Perfectionist. As I know most INFJs do not relate to my extreme preference for perfectionism.
 

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Well, here's part of a description for INFP:


They are idealists and perfectionists, who drive themselves hard in their quest for achieving the goals they have identified for themselves
Portrait of an INFP
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All of the NF's are idealists so I wouldn't say it's just one or the other. I suppose INFP's can be more idealistic at times since they tend to view the world through rose colored glasses and have dominant Fi in the lead. I know with my INFP brother, many times he won't start things because he's afraid it won't be perfect. And I'm like --- if you never get started, that doesn't even matter. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just spit it out and see what comes out so you can work with that. As for me, I am a perfectionist when it comes to editing. Perfectionism doesn't cause me to fear getting started. I get obsessive compulsive about things when unhealthy. I'm a core 6 but I also have a very strong 1 fix (almost equal) so the two combined can make me be really anxious and hard on myself when I make a perceived "mistake" or perceive that I'm being hypocritical or inconsistent in some way.


Indecisiveness -- I can take a long time to make a decision because I care about making the right choice or one I feel good about. I suppose that can be perceived as indecisive? I like to count the cost because I think that is wise. As for my INFP brother, he gets more bogged down by the options than I do. It's hard for him not to want to experiment with multiple ideas whereas I may take a little while but then I'll just choose one and I generally stick to it. I envision how each one will be and I sort of go by which one "feels" like a good fit. Well, there's more to it than that but I struggle to describe it. Sometimes I play the process of elimination game in my head too.
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Here's one description that describes the differences between an INFP's decision making process vs. an INFJ's:
For many INFPs it may be surprising to learn that they lead with a decision-making process, since decisions can be grueling for this type. Although Authenticity is truly decision-making, it is easily the slowest of the four decision-making processes (the other three being Effectiveness, Accuracy and Harmony).


Authenticity needs to be able to register how something is feeling viscerally, and often an INFP won’t know the right decision to make until after they’ve made it. It’s especially confusing when the Authenticity user can see a case for almost anything, so what’s true for them has to be carefully parsed out.


Each decision and its subsequent emotional impact is cataloged, however, and future decisions become easier and faster.


In fact, being so in touch with the emotional fall-out of a decision is how Authenticity eventually creates conviction, knowing in one’s ‘bones’ the rightness of something.


INFJs can also have trouble making decisions, but not for the same reason. Their decision-making process – technically called Extraverted Feeling that we’ve nicknamed “Harmony” – is faster than Authenticity, but secondary for them.


That is, they lead with Perspectives, and Harmony is an auxiliary process. Effort is required to develop the secondary process (that we call the “Co-Pilot”), and so when an INFJ finds themselves indecisive it’s because they’re spending too much time in their Driver of Perspectives and not enough time in their Co-Pilot of Harmony.


The result may look the same – indecisiveness – but the root is entirely different.


For an INFP, because their decision-making process can take time, it can feel grueling to be pressured to make a quick call. Each decision needs to be in alignment with the INFP’s values, and even a decision as simple as what salad to order can be a frustration if, say, their relationship with food has become a part of how they define themselves.


On the other hand, since INFJs are more removed from their decision-making process of Harmony, it’s usually over time that they become frustrated with the inability to make a final call. They are less likely to agonize over smaller decisions because not every decision is a reflection of their identity.
INFP vs INFJ: 5 Surprising Differences To Tell Them Apart – Personality Type and Personal Growth | Personality Hacker
 
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I'm definitely not indecisive... Whenever I have a tough decision to make, I just go with my gut, and don't worry too much XD
Sometimes I have to revise that decision down the road, but I'm never too stressed out at the time of actually making the decision. I just tend to think that everything will be okay, and I find things to be excited about in almost any situation.

I definitely struggle with perfectionism and idealism. Often, it prevents me from doing anything, because I don't want to do it at all if I can't do it 1000%. I have to remind myself that it's okay to take baby steps and not be perfect, that not everything is going to happen at once.
 

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Oddly enough, I tend to be quite indecisive but mostly only with more trivial things. If it's something more meaningful/bigger/influential, I suppose just by caring about it more I naturally apply more effort to that decision, and while I might not decide right way, I feel I can trust my instinct well enough once I've let it turn over in my mind a bit.

Perfectionism can certainly create struggles for me, and even though being indecisive often about little things is frustrating, I'd say this is the bigger problem for me. I can get down on myself very quickly if I feel I'm not doing as well as I should for instance, and fear of not meeting my own standards/continuing to meet them is something that really plagues me, even with a strong history of continuing to do well.
 

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I would say perfectionism in the context of communicating with others in real life or over a screen.

Here's what I mean: While I am new to this forum and all, all of the 3 posts I've made (hold your applause, thank you) I've meticulously crafted in a word document before posting to correct anything from typos to organization and clarification of what I want to say before I post it so that room for misunderstanding is limited. This can be a problem more-so in real life as opposed to over a screen since there is less time to consider what you say before you say it (depending on the situation), and you can't "edit" what you say in real life either XD.

As far as this "communication-perfectionism" relates to my personality, NF's tend to communicate using abstract language, so I have to be prudent in speaking with lay-man's terms instead of speaking in a way that could be misinterpreted. Additionally, Fe usually manifests when I spend a lot of time carefully considering how what I might say may emotionally impact the people I am addressing.
 

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While anyone can be indecisive sometimes INFJs are J types which, among other things, means that they like to have their plans settled. If you are an indecisive INFJ chances are that you're close to being a perceiver.

In my experience no type struggles more with perfectionism than the INFJs. They set high standards for themselves (either made from within or based on norms). Being perfectionistic sometimes leads to being indecisive (or simply never beginning something) as the risk of the task not ending out ideally is much too great. But then it is important to remember that perfectionism leads to indecisiveness and not vice versa.

So from an outside perspective I would say that it is clearly more pertinent to see INFJs as being more perfectionistic than indecisive.
 
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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Although it is written for INFj socionics, It is like me: (I'm confused, functions stack doesn't work I think, I use Ne at times as it is defined, sth is wrong)

TEACHER (Ne-INFj)

The intuitive subtype is emotional, composed, and firm. Likes to advise, to mentor, to educate others but only within his circle. Sometimes he likes to joke around in conversation. Speech is emotional and slightly inhibited; its tone is often didactic.

Very fond of young children; sometimes for educational purposes he becomes strict and uncompromising with them. At times advocates for harsh measures and punishments.

Impressionable and emotionally sensitive. Tries to please others by performing a variety of services for others or giving presents, by being generous and unselfish.


A person of firm convictions - an idealist and a maximalist.

Dreams of being in ideal harmony with his partner in tastes, beliefs, and passions, and becomes upset when this doesn't happen and disagreements arise.

Prone to doubt, somewhat indecisive and diffident.
 

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Although it is written for INFj socionics, It is like me: (I'm confused, functions stack doesn't work I think, I use Ne at times as it is defined, sth is wrong)
Watch out with overlapping socionics and MBTI. They use some different terminology. For example: the socionics INFj corresponds to the MBTI INFP. It can be quite confusing.


Other than that, for me it's definitely perfectionism. I have a vision of what I want the end result of my actions to look like and the fear that my achievement could be in any way less than that is paralyzing at times. If I can't figure out how to achieve the perfect result I just keep working on it until I find a way to get there somehow.
 

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I have a vision of what I want the end result of my actions to look like and the fear that my achievement could be in any way less than that is paralyzing at times. If I can't figure out how to achieve the perfect result I just keep working on it until I find a way to get there somehow.
Exactly.

As an INFP I also deal with perfectionism and fearing the end result won't live up to the ideal in my mind. I think it's to a large degree also, but I don't know how large that is relative to the INFJ.

I also struggle with quick decision as well though, like if I go to a fast food joint I've never been to before and they ask me what I want, I usually have to force out a decision since I'm being pressured with time to respond, but I haven't had enough time to think about it and that creates discomfort.

I would say perfectionism in the context of communicating with others in real life or over a screen.

you can't "edit" what you say in real life...
Also I have seen this in real life. The INFJs I've seen usually are editing their words in the head before it comes out the mouth. And occasionally you will here one say a word with a tone of voice that you use to ask a question. E.g. (The other day I was walking my dog and we saw a peacock(?) down the street). It's as if they are asking themselves if they are using the right word to express their thoughts precisely. You can see the cognitive process and perfectionism in action. They also do the forehead scrunch when they force their brain to do this editing(well the ones I've seen), I would like to see what goes on up there.

Ne is much different, someone says an idea and then the mind is reminded of 5 other ideas that relate to that and have to be said before we get back on track, sorry INFJs for derailing you convos lol. This causes indecision because we see possibilities and don't know which is best at the moment.
 
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