Inferior Function

Kyrielle said:

That's a good way of considering Ni right there. Ni is very much about looking at perspectives of things. Just as you might turn an object in your hands to look at all the sides, Ni turns ideas in our heads to see the different sides.

I don't so much as ignore the obvious as classify it was less important than other potential meanings. The obvious is usually the last part I consider, because I make the assumption that most people do not intend the obvious. Usually this is true. Furthermore, it aids me in finding a shortcut in doing something. Maybe I don't have to do anything in sequence. Maybe if I look at what this obvious item means and link it together with some other concept that's similar, I can skip a bunch of steps ahead and save myself a lot of work.

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You have been very helpful in helping me understand Ni. That is a great way to explain it!

Lol, well it's just not as important as what isn't there. Perhaps a very good thing for Se-doms (and Ni-doms in the reverse) to learn would be to learn to see what isn't there at the same time they see what is there. Often times what isn't said is even more important than what is said. There are lots of gaps in between things we see, and that's where some really interesting things lie.

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I definitely believe that to be true, but can we do both at once? Can Ni and Se work simultenously?

Yes, I think that's very likely true more often than not. I'm good and picking up what you're generally supposed to do with a skill, but the execution is what will cause me trouble for some time until I've really practiced it enough. So, I can do something almost right if it's my first time doing it, but getting the proper technique takes me a lot longer. I have to find my own way of physically doing whatever it is, rather than just doing what someone tells me to do (for some mysterious reason, that just never works...it's like my brain cannot follow those directions to the letter if I already think I know what to do). And once I have the actual execution down (which takes me much longer than it might take an Se-dom), I take that idea and apply it to other things to make learning faster.

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So it's like you're trying to incorporate Ni into a physical skill where it doesn't naturally belong, but that's the way you function in general so you make it work to your advantage...I think my dominant Se does make me very naturally take to new skills, but I have to thoroughly understand what is expected of me. I wouldn't usually try to improvise, especially if being taught by someone who already knows what they are doing.

I must admit that if I'm not watching myself, I fall into the same traps your brother does when teaching someone something. For that reason, I preface almost any teaching session with: "If you are confused, lost, or need more detail at any point, just stop me and ask for clarification. I don't always know when I'm being too vague." Because I really do want people to ask me if they get lost. I have no problem retracing my steps and going into further detail, solely because I know I will forget to do so if I'm not careful.

It's really, really hard for me to put every single detail into consideration in this context, because I'm fighting my natural impulse to skip over stuff and say, "Oh, that's easy enough to see right there. They don't necessarily need to know that part." When, in fact, there are quite a few people who do.

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It's funny because he took a MBTI test a while back and it said he was an ISFJ, but I've always had my suspicions about him being an intuiter because he is very out there in my opinion. Well, when he was tutoring me, that kind of confirmed it for me. His teaching style was so contrary to my learning style. I kept asking him a bunch of questions that seemed inane to him, but it was like I needed to understand WHY math is the way it is, and he just intuitively GETS it without really understanding why it works the way it does, or seeing any need to put it into simple terms. I was like "You can just DO that? Why couldn't we do that before?" "What do you mean? That's just the way it is." "But WHY? I'm not going to be able to replicate it if I don't understand the logic behind it!" "Well I don't understand your question! What more is there to understand!??" "Nevermind."

On that note, I seem to have written you another book, good lord. But I am rather enjoying this interplay we're discussing. It's like we need to come to the same place in order to achieve balance in ourselves, but we're coming from opposite directions. I find that fascinating and strangely wonderful.

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Oh I wholeheartedly agree, and appreciate you input! We could both benefit from learning a little more about our inferiors, I'm sure. And funny story, I for some reason assumed you were an INTJ at first and I was wondering why you were being so co-operative and patient, and then I was like ohhhh. INFJ, that makes more sense. XD No offense, INTJs.

Anyway, talking this out with you is giving me a much better idea of what it means to have Ni.

roastingmallows said:

How do you even function without the details? I've never quite understood how that works. If I am to make an informed decision, I obviously need all the details. For me to come to any conclusion, it would be reckless of me to do so without having all the details. So how does Ni work without a lot of attention to sensory/immediate details? I may never understand. D: It's like you just draw conclusions from thin air, or because something feels right...That doesn't seem like a very reliable method! Perhaps intuitives are simply able to look at things from differing perspectives and draw original conclusions outside of the obvious? So do you often ignore the obvious?

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Immature and younger Ni-doms often do ignore the obvious. My hypothesis is that Ni-doms do pay attention to a lot of details but are not always aware of it at a conscious level. That's why Ni has the reputation for being the "Knowing something without always knowing how you know it" function. It's really crazy how my mind works sometimes, especially when everything's in sync. It's hard to explain, because I have nothing else to compare it to. I do see everything, but sometimes, it's like "blindsight" like when you've traveled the same path to work every single day to the point that you don't have to consciously think of it because you know it by instinct now. That's actually how a Ni-dom might spend a surprising portion of their day.

Another way to look at it, is if you find an old letter with holes in it, so you don't know exactly what everything says, but by seeking out patterns, you can easily deduct what it says in the holes, and reconstruct the entire letter in your mind. I find, for me, that's how Ni-dominance works, except it goes beyond just reconstructing the letter, it also can sometimes deduce the purpose of the letter, the relationship between the writer and the recipient, and other such details by putting the pieces together. The Ni-dom, if they're on their game, might even be able to anticipate the most likely reply to this letter based on those clues.

Sometimes I can be in the moment, where my constant internal dialogue that constantly seeks meaning is shut off, but it doesn't last long. It's like having this ditzy professor in my head that can't shut up for more than a few seconds, who specializes in whatever thing I'm interested in or obsessed with during that period of time. Sometimes, it's a reply to this forum that I'm overthinking. Sometimes, it's ideas for this blog I'm working on as a side project, sometimes it's a certain band I like, and I'm analyzing their music. For instance, I can be in the supermarket, looking for beans on aisle 3, and, I'm thinking "Yay! I'm in the moment! I feel free!" but without even having to think about it the professor starts yammering again, and before I know it, I'm on aisle 6 looking at soup, and thinking "how did I get here? Oh no. Not again," lol. So I guess even mature Ni doms sometimes miss the obvious too. I'll be honest Ni dominance can be kind of a pain sometimes, especially in a world where Ni doms are so rare, and thus easily misunderstood, but it has it's shining moments as well, just like with any type.

I know all this might sound really odd to you, but it's like how I told you in your thread that I'm sure you use intuition all the time, but may not be consciously aware of it too. I'm sure that way of thinking sounds equally odd to a Ni-dom who can't turn their constant conscious intuiting off, and just live in the moment for more than brief periods of time.

roastingmallows said:

I definitely believe that to be true, but can we do both at once? Can Ni and Se work simultenously?

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I would say in situation like this in the balance of Ni - Se. If Se is more upfront Ni can be behind Se looking over its shoulder saying stuff like oh yeah bet ya didn't know that or see that or oh that's interesting I am going to go play with it for awhile. And comes back out of nowhere like BTW this mean that and that means this and don't bother me by asking you why or how so. Go pester Ti for details or want to make sense of it (or Te for the INTJ's.)

Yeah of course I would say that Ni - Se can work simultaneously together. But can be difficult for a Dom function user to lean on the other in support of one another. In my opinion this can a great union together

As well as Se - Ni,
The other day me and my nephew, as well as some other family, was going to a Christmas dinner. And the clouds was kinda odd that day and was brought to a attention so. I was zoned out on them already kinda like woah , I'll skip the details, and my nephew said yeah the clouds look like they are coming straight down. Kinda snapped me out a bit, I was thinking what is he talking about the clouds look like they are coming straight down. After I shook Ni off to the side telling Ni to get behind Se and you can peek over the shoulder if you behave. I comment yeah they do don't they, like yeah I was thinking that the whole time yup I sure was.

With my Ni in the background still and with its own little party and entertainment to keep it busy...I also very rarely let my Ni get carried away anymore though.

Fi and Te are always there, just Te gets pushed aside by Fi.

Te: "So, are you going to make your mind up about something that has been bugging you?"
Fi: "Nah, I don't really feel like doing that."
Te:"Why? You know you have to make a reasonable decision sometime."
Fi: "It's not the right time. I will make a decision in my own time. Thinking about it will only result in more questions."
Te: "No, you cannot wait any longer."
Fi: "You don't understand. You cannot just make a decision, it has to come to you and when it does, it will feel right. You cannot rush these things."
Te: "Fine, but don't blame me when you get caught off guard."
Fi: "I will deal with it when the time comes. Now, I want to just sit here and read."
Te: -stares-

Te is like my parent, always nagging me to do things I rather not deal with, but I should be dealing with them. I guess this is the healthiest way my Te occurs. Te when unhealthy... well, I think people have already said what it does.

Julia Bell said:

:ninja:

Hehe...

Well, I actually didn't say Ne was simpler than Ni. I simply feel it is that way sometimes because Ne is so utterly natural to me. But to the Ni-user, Ni would be easy to grasp but Ne would be a mystery and totally exhausting. I'm sure that for you, Si probably looks more complex than Se. I do not think it is that way. All of the functions are "simple", it's just when it's not your dominant or auxiliary it's hard to wrap our minds around the concepts of using the "simple" thing. So in our minds it becomes complex and frustrating. And seemingly impossible. Like I just don't understand how the heck you can think like that.

It might be easier to explain the concept of Extroverted functions to people because Extroverted functions are objective, but that doesn't make the Extroverted functions "easy" and "straightforward" in use.

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I really meant that the DEFINITION of Ne is simpler for me to understand, not that the function itself was simpler. Not that I would know. XD I think you have a point there, about extraverted functions being easier to define than the introverted ones. For the longest time I didn't relate to Fi because I didn't understand the definition. Now that I really understand it, I strongly relate to Fi. When I would read about Fi I would always see the word 'value' tossed around, and I don't consider myself a person who has many values, and morality is very low on my list of concerns. When I looked more into it, and into myself for that matter, I realized that even the word 'values' is subjective. My values are few and simple, but I strongly adhere to them and wish others would do the same.

Anyway, I suppose the dominant function of any type feels simple to them, but Se is quite obviously the most straightforward! In my (true) opinion. I see things, I accept them as fact, and I incorporate them into my internal database of things that are true where they remain until they are proven otherwise. Easy peasy.

Si I do see as slightly more complicated than Se, but I understand it just fine, partly because I know many Si types.

The inferior is merely the place where you're forever kind of touchy (amenable to influence by others there), "all-or-nothing," (what you do there has to be meaningful to you or otherwise, you have doubts about even bothering) tend to exaggerate the efforts of using it, as well as the reality of it, sort of have psychologically distorted relationship with it that tends to rest on your self motivation more than your rational aims for action and ego choices. It's not a matter of exercising it (other than perhaps training yourself to care more about goals related to it just to make you more well-rounded and better able to cope with the things that might "be you" and a psychologically healthy escape from your own egotism) - it's a matter of just learning not to project it or deny it's influence - some people might naturally be better at this than others (you get some of those people who's lives are almost completely rooted around their projections, which somehow gives them an excuse to be egotistical, while others might combat these head on). It was largely the actual shadow of a person Jung was interested in with the inferior though, not necessarily the inferior itself (which isn't always inferior anyways, unless specific ego-related aims for action come into play with it - the things you wouldn't want to see in yourself, in other words - these ultimately come from a person's shadow though, not their inferior function - they just get amplified through the inferior, but the actual psychoanalytically accessible personal content and personally held IDEAS behind the projections originate SOLEY from the INDIVIDUAL's shadow, either as fears, inner desires the person has, but can't seem to actualize, etc.). You can have two people with the same or different inferior functions who have the same or totally different projections. The inferior function manifests in tendencies, especially when a person is under stress. It's sort of the first function "to go" under periods of extreme self-defense - it's pretty much the last way a person would choose to defend their ego, and this couldn't be more obvious than when a person is under an immediate threat of sorts. They might snap at you if you try to appeal to this function when they're dealing with an immediate threat to their ego (e.g. inferior F types might tell you to stop being so emotional, inferior S types might totally shrug off detailed explanations and snap at someone for not just giving an idea, inferior T types might hate you for not considering their immediate feelings, inferior N types might be ready to bite your head off if what your saying isn't perfectly relevant to the situation, etc.)

It's important to note as well that projections from the inferior function are going to be ego syntonic ones (what you can still handle not rationalizing toward your ego so-as-to disturb yourself - the ones that you can publicly get away with talking about without any fear of repercussion - in fact, you might pass them off as fact if you're just not in a very rational, conscientious or considerate state of mind) - the ego dystonic ones will come from the unconscious (the ones that rub you the wrong way and you try as hard as possible to actually repress, rather than project). The inferior function is just one part of projection - projection can go much farther than that, but the inferior kind of channels how you rationalize your projections, since it serves as the block of unconscious content that may interrupt your life on some level, good, bad, or even rather neutrally (in truth, most projections are largely harmless psychologically and come across as "other" to a person, yet potentially disruptive to their sense of identity (not necessarily in any bad ways at all, but maybe in ways that might ruffle their self-confidence or shake their world-view a bit). People who are super into a public persona might get easily disturbed by their projections if they run too counter to how the person is deliberately trying to see themselves (we all know those people who are a little too into their personas). The inferior function is kind of where the person might end up seeing something so extremely counter to their conscious aims (based on the current circumstances of their life), and depending on a lot of factors concerning their state of mind and whatnot, they might overreact to it (not think they can deal with it). The topic goes much deeper and into much more psychologically significant places from here, but I'm not going there because that's where things get pretty irrelevant to type and more relevant to psychological matters (which Jung sort of emphasized more with introversion/extraversion than with functions - how people might be suddenly forced into situations where defending themselves subjectively no longer works, and they are suddenly confronted with the task of defending themselves objectively, and vice-versa - the functions themselves aren't really all that important here, although they might help to explain seemingly uncharacteristic experiences a person might have involving their own thinking and ability to pass off as "normal").

So, for sort of an example of projection around the inferior, it's often something that might happen to kind of upset a person's self-confidence - some idea that might come into their head that sort of threatens them by being really absurd, fitting their ideas of embarrassing, or what have you (it might run 100% counter to something you're doing and pop up when you're under stress to kind of scare you away from confidently pursing an action or imagining pursuing an action IRL or accepting an idea IRL). The extent to which people actually FIGHT AGAINST THIS is pretty much the extent to which they have accepted their shadow and are not trying to repress this from consciousness - in other words, someone who isn't too egotistical. Repressing this kind of stuff is what Jung considered bad, psychologically, because later, it will just get too unreasonable to repress it when enough experiences come up that just reaffirm it's existence - it becomes denial, and like in all cases of denial, it will become psychologically crippling the more a person tries to pretend it away.

Do you think the writers of big bang theory made their Sheldon character have an inferior fi or fe function?
On purpose?
I relate to how he is a little bit only I go a little darker.

Your inferior function is less developed because nobody has enough hours in a day to do or be everything. You enjoy and prefer your leading function and the secondary function serves the primary one - because this works for you - or it worked best or was rewarded most when you were young (no win on the nature nurture debate). Anyway I think the third function is like plan B or the extra muscle when needed. But by the time the fourth function steps in "everyone else is tired" and the fourth function is weak because it doesn't get out much - the runt of the litter in your head.

So when he gets worn down, Sheldon Cooper wants his mommy and soft kitty song . . .
I just go off and ruminate about how people are stupid heads . . . and look for tedious distractions (black hole) to get away from things. If I am pushed I scream at people close to me and cut myself down or say hostile exaggerated put downs about others (exaggerated but not off topic by the way).

Sheldon is not so dysfunctional, I mean it is a childish but workable strategy.
I have to figure out better tactics for fi . . . I just saw this just now.

Sheldon...I don't think those represent any function. What people often express with relation to their shadow is not really going to clearly represent any function - that function is often the very thing they would never dream of publicly talking about - it might consist of ideas that might seem in some way, someone random or uncharacteristic of the person's public persona, but it takes a ton of intuition and strong powers of inference to really link it up to any function. I'm not sure if Sheldon's actually an inferior F type - I don't know what he'd be (there's speculation that he might be inferior intuition though - I honestly don't think there's any real way you can definitively tell - it could be any function sort of taking on an archetypal character you would associate with inferior intuition, but may in fact, be any other function) - the show is rather unrealistic anyhow being a sitcom, so it's unlikely you'll really have a consistent-enough glimpse of his character actions to really gain any real idea.

myjazz said:

I would impose that a lot of times this is due to people not letting go of what they already is accustomed to. And not trusting that they are able wing of off the transition.
As far as the Sheldon question...why say that his inferior function has to be Fe or Fi? I mean I see your int on how he goes into an emotional child like stage when struck with sickness or depressed. But why would this indicate an inferior F function in the stacking order? To me though he shows a lot of emotional situations other than the deep indulging ones that you point out, of couse I am not implying Feeling = emotions either. Maybe he is relating to his inner child when his mother would comfort him and is his happy place?!?! of track some but maybe?

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Example: new aquaintance tells me "please tell me sometimes life is not fair" and progresses to tell me about how they had applied for a job and soon found out it was being offered to their sister - who didn't really want the position but might take it "for now". The sister (at the moment) is in a better financial situation than my new friend who was apparently not considered.

Me - "That does Suck . . . Have you had anyone look at your resume and give you advise?"
I KNOW the "Dale Carnegie" thing to say . . . "You are right it's not fair . . . you must feel frustrated . . ." If I knew for a fact that this women felt pushed to the breaking point and was worried and depressed, the dale carnegie response might have been the better choice.

My own inner processing of annecdotal same situation:
. . . Wow that sucks . . . I am envious and this does not feel good . . . I wonder what exactly gave them the edge?, . . . My presentation?, lack of credentials?, . . . should I be looking for a variation of skill requirements?, . . . or is it really just a numbers game and I need to stay the course? (Ne - Ti taking over) Puting myself in her place, I mean if it was me . . . .
I would not be ABLE to hold back my curiosity - it is my LEADING function.

Now lets assume I got this same news after stress upon stress, . . . roof leak at my shop, shedule crunch/failure, sub contactor painted something backwards - backwards!, . . . and I need this account, in fact, I will have to stall on the rent! . . . I go to a coffee shop, nice atmosphere and some good soup. I don't do this often (more often a rahmen consumer) but I sooo need a break. . . . I go there to brood.

My own inner processing of annecdotal same situation near stress breaking point:
While sitting at the coffee shop. . .
. . . maybe I am a defective piece of crap, . . . maybe life is meaningless and brain-dead resignation is all there is. . . If I have to go out right now and take the first shit job I can get, I will just live in a rat-hole and wait for death. . . If you are willing to take a job nooobody wants, of course you can be employed. Maybe everyone just medicates themselves with the substance abuse of their choice. . . over spending . . . . over eating . . . gossip . . . I wanted to have integrity and believe there is a meaningful place for me on the planet, where I fit . . . where I excell . . .

If someone is around and pushes me to talk:
Same monolog only much louder . . . and the ranting gets more exaggerated . . . If I am lucky, it gets so outrageous that I accidentaly make my self laugh. (other person left with mouth hanging open) The worst thing about this is that some people don't know that as soon as I am fully vented, (one sitting - not calling 10 people or even one) it's like dumping out your purse because it got overloaded with crap; when it is all on the table you can see what you will still have to deal with and what you can throw away. life goes on and I'm ready to go back to thinking what my next move will be.

My point in all this is that the only reason I can see choices about how to respond to other people is that I am old enough to have been forced into a more balanced perspective. I haven't been mean to people to avoid feelings, more like I was just clueless. I still feel an internal cringe to empathise, if I know someone enough to know it won't lead to at least a minor adjustment, a tweak in policy, procedure, direction, or understanding. Of course empathy is all there is for some things. I never intend to be unkind and I don't believe it is my mission to change anyone. Reflective listening works, but sometimes it seems only self serving.

Inferior function is inferior because leading function has been rewarded. I't doesn't occur to you to use the inferior function if leading function is keeping things going along okay. Sheldon as an example, skipped grades, he was rewarded for his brain, he shows examples of creativity with that brain also. He doesn't even know what it is really like to have peers, untill maybe where the story picks up.

So most people have a kind of hyper-development of what has been excercised most. This is what makes the world go around. We want some people to be engineers and some to be entertainers. A computer tech won't do his job if he needs more time day to day talking about his feelings and wants to sell big ideas or get away from detail.

An inferior function only becomes a problem when life experiences require adjustments and old strategies don't work. So in a way it is about comfort zone - but forcing youself to be more in balance for no reason would create a world of gray mediocrity.

Favorite Sheldon quote is when the blond girl is crying an he asks why: she says - "because I'm stupid"
Sheldon - "Thats no reason to cry, one cries because one is sad, for example I cry when other people are stupid and that makes me sad"

He is oblivious or unfamilliar with how she is needing to opperate on pure emotion. His Fi or Fe is primitive, or more like a two year old who hasn't been in a situation much yet of someone else looking to him for comfort. Some two year olds would automatically offer a hug but not all - especially in an unfamiliar situation.

On the oposit extream some people go out everyday needing to fill their cup with hugs and kisses, and anyone who doesn't fill them is someone they don't like. This is more than a need to be friendly - it is everything they are, and difficult to find a rational fiber to their being. This may or may not have anything to do with being affraid or uncomfortable with thinking. This can be someone who is a teacher. They tollerated enough wrote training because they wanted a secure government job - because feeling is their leading function.