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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With the duality of reason I want to asses one of the strange quirks so known to us.
It is the fact that we can live into the hardcore rationalism of the Thinkers, but on the other hand understand at heart the viewpoint of the Dreamers.
It is as if we are dangling in between, forever unable to chose the side of the heart nor the side of the mind.

To give a practical example (before we drift of into the dark waters of the utterly abstract :kitteh:)

In essence I believe in hard science. I have an encyclopedia of knowledge stored in my brain and a scientific side that is both skeptical and emotionless.
On the other hand, I'm into Reiki, crystals and meditation and believe in something; whatever it may be or how we conceive it to be.

It is so strange; because I know that I cannot talk hard rationalism to some people and I cannot talk the other thing to other people. And I know instantly who fits where.
Yes it is true that some people, regardless of their type are open to both; but they view it from their point respectively.
They stand on their side and wonder about the other side.
While I feel like standing on one side at some time, and on the other side at other times.

And some times I stand on a bridge in between those two sides. On that metaphorical bridge, everything makes sense, but each time I go from that bridge to one or the other side to explain it; I lose that unique view and am unable to explain.

When I was younger; I hated that duality and I chose the side of reason. But I fooled myself quite good, since I intuitively knew the other side, felt it.
Now I have come to terms standing there, in the middle. Not belonging to one side, nor the other; graceful to see both sides and have a beautiful sight on that bridge, so few other people see.
Only I have sadness not to be able to share this beauty.
 

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I think that this duality that you speak of is because we are in the process of thesis - antithesis - synthesis as a species. We'll get there. Maybe not in our life time though. These processes that take more than 100 years (i.e. one lifetime) are hard for us to watch unfold. sooooooo slooooowww..

As has been noted in this forum before, a lot of people pick sides because its easy. We can't even fault them for it really. In some cases you gotta choose. Every life has it's path.

I liked your post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I think that this duality that you speak of is because we are in the process of thesis - antithesis - synthesis as a species. We'll get there. Maybe not in our life time though. These processes that take more than 100 years (i.e. one lifetime) are hard for us to watch unfold. sooooooo slooooowww..

As has been noted in this forum before, a lot of people pick sides because its easy. We can't even fault them for it really. In some cases you gotta choose. Every life has it's path.

I liked your post.
Thank you for this answer. A part of me feels less lonely now.
 

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With the duality of reason I want to asses one of the strange quirks so known to us.
It is the fact that we can live into the hardcore rationalism of the Thinkers, but on the other hand understand at heart the viewpoint of the Dreamers.

....

While I feel like standing on one side at some time, and on the other side at other times.

And some times I stand on a bridge in between those two sides. On that metaphorical bridge, everything makes sense, but each time I go from that bridge to one or the other side to explain it; I lose that unique view and am unable to explain.

When I was younger; I hated that duality and I chose the side of reason. But I fooled myself quite good, since I intuitively knew the other side, felt it.

Now I have come to terms standing there, in the middle. Not belonging to one side, nor the other; graceful to see both sides and have a beautiful sight on that bridge, so few other people see.
Only I have sadness not to be able to share this beauty.
What you will come to realize is that the view becomes the same. The 'two sides' merge. You will speak easily to both sides.
 

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Thank you for this answer. A part of me feels less lonely now.
In real life, I think that people who are aware of these things are not all congregated together. Online though you can find people who are working from that perspective and listen to their podcasts, lectures etc..

That can lead to feeling lonely if you find that in real life a lot of people don't see things the way that you do.

I for one, am interested to see the postings unfold here with the thread you started.
 

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Because of my detached way of approaching a subject objectively people sometimes want to type me as a Thinker (NT), but that's just it like what you are saying @Force Majeure there is that duality and they don't see my other more personable side and really can't see it through philosophical discussions or writing alone.
 

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I can relate, loving both the hard science and soft science (the abstract and unseen). Unlike Te thinkers, I often don't ask for "hard evidence" but go with a gut feeling in which theory I'd give more credit.


Quite a few top flight thinkers and scientists believe in God. If there's one thing I look for in death, is to finally get to the "other side". I hope to find God there. Human mind, no matter how brilliant, can't answer or explain all the questions or happenstances. This believing in God is the result of exhausting scientific evidences to try to prove there is or isn't.

Loving reasoning and logic and believing in Karma or fate can co-exist in one conscious mind. It's what makes INFJs unique.
 

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Interesting. I can relate to this too as I find myself logical and into science on one side (I'm a programmer), and artistic and metaphysical on the other side (astrology, some spiritual beliefs, imagining possible metaphysical links behind). These sides are not necessarily exclusive and I'm not a blind believer - I'm skeptical too, I picture the possible logic behind certain things, astrology itself is a logical structured system, and then there were some personal experiences that strengthened some metaphysical beliefs.
Also, I feel that there is logic behind everything, it's just we are not knowledgeable enough to understand all.

For example, I try to picture karma and energy, and I wonder if karma is a kind of effect that the accumulation of certain types of (negative) energy causes through the attraction of situations related to those types of energy. In non metaphysical language, in psychology we attract situations due to issues we have unconsciously, which is similar.
Perhaps the world is really connected through energy that we can't yet perceive and the energies influence each other. Perhaps some people are more sensitive to this so they can feel and therefore collect information through their senses.
Wondering about these possibilities fascinates me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
@Eudaimonia

I was reading about C.G. Jung's presumed personality type and I must say that I got the feeling most NTs would be unable to tell an (healthy and educated/smart) INFJ apart from from an NT type.

It is so funny that we can act the most extroverted from all introverted types while we are the most private of all types.
We are often mistaken for NT, while being NF at heart.

Some have stated that the INFJ is like a chameleon or a mirror. While this sounds "cool"; it actually feels more like a weakness, in which we can only truly be and come to ourselves while we are alone. But we must also ward ourselves to be alone too much; since we tend to get too caught up in our head (patterns & worry) and don't take action.

It is as if we need both to find a balance between feeling and thinking, as between being reserved and open.
And between being active (doing) and being in our head (feeling, thinking).
 

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It seems to get a bit easier with age. I'm hoping that this continues. :)

In a different cultural setting, INFJs would probably become the wisdom keepers for the tribe, upon old age. That awareness of the bridge would be sought out like it is in good fictional stories where the wise wizard is consulted because they can understand and see more than the younger ones can.

If you consider yourself as a wizard in training, it can take some of the loneliness away. :) Even in this cultural setting (Westernized) you could impart your wisdom and help others and yourself in ways that use your awareness.

@Eudaimonia

I was reading about C.G. Jung's presumed personality type and I must say that I got the feeling most NTs would be unable to tell an (healthy and educated/smart) INFJ apart from from an NT type.

It is so funny that we can act the most extroverted from all introverted types while we are the most private of all types.
We are often mistaken for NT, while being NF at heart.

Some have stated that the INFJ is like a chameleon or a mirror. While this sounds "cool"; it actually feels more like a weakness, in which we can only truly be and come to ourselves while we are alone. But we must also ward ourselves to be alone too much; since we tend to get too caught up in our head (patterns & worry) and don't take action.

It is as if we need both to find a balance between feeling and thinking, as between being reserved and open.
And between being active (doing) and being in our head (feeling, thinking).
 

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Just wanted to say I love this post and found it so beautiful and interesting.
 

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Just giving another type's perspective here;

I believe that Ni is responsible for all this balancing of duality, not to mention that some users have even responded that a "perfect mixture" exists.
Introverted intuition is always trying to see the bigger picture and find the optimal solution from it, which can sometimes make even the starkest opposites seem like two parts of the same thing, and choosing a side becomes meaningless. In Taoism it is believed that words only make sense when they are defined in contrast, but words are merely tools for communicating, not symbols for real entities. Reality is somewhere beyond or in between what contrasts can convey; and so is the way - and therefore it can't be said but only lived.
Jung says of the introverted perception types that you shouldn't look at what they say but what they do to understand them. The complexity of deciding while taking all into perspective would crash and divide by zero at any detailed calculation, and can therefore only be done in jumps of reasoning that hardly translate into words, but yet the right result might still be acquired and lived out.
 
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I can defiantly relate to this on multiple different levels. I have found that biology marries both my hard science and artistic/mystic outlooks on life due to the fact that hard science is involved but also a certain level of imagination is need. I find this duality when envisioning the inside of a cell or pondering why certain things exist. This is part of why we are such a unique type.
 

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Ni seeks unify, find some kind of complete and interconnected answer. Neither the mystical approach or the scientific approach alone can yield a complete answer, and leaves you kind of crippled.

A good example of separation is the fact that many people go to a medical doctor when there is good chance for living, but when death is nearby people are more likely to go to some kind religious figure. One cannot deal with the troubles of the truly dying, while the other has no solutions for those who can still life. This separation is product of our "western" society that likes to separate things.
 

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Thanks for this.

This is kinda exactly like what i wrote about in a corner of the web just a few days ago. About how I dont really fit with either side / group / people.

I am very much for fact, science, numbers, something concrete .. But at the same time I really kinda dread that and am very abstract, like to see things in different ways, new approaches.
I think it kinda unsettles or annoys people around me sometimes.
Also people at either extreme i cant handle them well. It is as if it forever kinda shifts a little.

I think this always has been a kinda theme for me. I like the creative, arty, etc. But also for example, technical drawing and such, statistics, I like that too.
Those are the two qualities i always have been praised for. My math teacher used to praise me in first grade for my creative solutions.
 

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Well, it is said that we keep two sets of books, in some sense or another. I can relate with your example to a point. I don't struggle with the idea of juggling a scientific worldview and what may be called the abstract. Open-mindedness is encouraged, but skepticism must be applied, or inconsistencies in our reasoning emerge. So I can't say I can get as far as accepting things like religion, astrology, alternative medicine, etc. For me, it's not really about balance; rather, there are good and bad reasons for believing.
 

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Now I have come to terms standing there, in the middle. Not belonging to one side, nor the other; graceful to see both sides and have a beautiful sight on that bridge, so few other people see.
Only I have sadness not to be able to share this beauty.
Isn't the perspective of beein a watcher puttin some balm on your heart ? you have this gift of beein able to let people come into a realm of reason or a realm of wander and greater depth, you shouldn't be sad. Be grateful that you're actually encompassin more point of views instead
 

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I don't have much to add here, but I'd like to put in some personal experience.

I have always had trouble explaining many people how I can perceive both spiritual matters and hard science to be true, and speak for both of them as if I were a firm believer in one of them. On one hand I can ramble extensively at a friend about how we are individual examples of psychology, how we mostly operate based on our brain and nerves, how it's all emergent material - on one hand I can stare into nothingness and remind the friend how there is a spirit guiding us all, the spirit of all existence, the unexplainable breath of the universe. It's a mystery to me how this works, but for me, it creates an immense, whole world-view. I sometimes cringe at how many other types - judgers especially - refuse to see the many sides of matters, how they simply seem to ignore. Then I realise it doesn't come naturally to them. For them, it is more natural to follow the way more familiar to them.

My ideal state is to reside on that bridge between the two views. I've found I feel least comfortable siding with just one. That's the thing that most drains me with other people, I think. There isn't space for alternative views even though my mind screams for bringing the other side to the equation. Some people demand heart, some people demand rationality. I cannot follow just one. It'd be a terrific ability not to feel threatened, and that way drained, by what other people (don't even really) ask of us.

I'm still young, I have much to learn. Then again I feel eternal, thousands of years old. Again, two realities.
 
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