[Mithril]

One of the reasons that I (INTJ) subscribed to Personality Café today, is that I would like to find a solution
to my difficulties dealing with INFJ friends. Initially, I always click with people who test
as INFJ. Because they seem to understand things and are friendly.
However, the four people I have known dwell in martyrdom. Are they just unhealthy INFJ's?
When they have everything, but one thing, they keep on dwelling on that, sometimes for hours.
I try to come up with solutions:

"You don't have a girlfriend? Go out more and perhaps go to a dating site. But having a relationship is not all that anyways."

"You don't like the way you are being treated at work, because you don't want to
answer the phone, even though that is part of your job? You're probably not at the right place at that job,
search for other jobs or become an enterpreneur."

"You are jealous of a colleague, who got a promotion, but started working at the company
more recently than you? Stop comparing yourself to this person, but start working on a side
business/ your study to get some self esteem out of that."

The problem is, they don't listen to my solutions, they don't do anything with it, taking the energy I put into thinking of a solution for granted.


There are two possible strategies.
1) I try my best to help this person. To my frustration, this person does not listen and keeps on being
a downer. If I overdo helping them (because I don't know another solution), they do an INFJ-doorslam and I become someone to whine
about.
2) See them as being childish, say "Awwwww." and don't think about their problems. The consequence of that is that I can't take them seriously anymore and therefore, I can't see them as true friends.


Main question: does anybody have a less frustrating strategy to deal with (unhealthy?) INFJ's?

What I noticed was that these people are all extemely envious. Of another person getting a promotion, of someone who has nicer/ wealthier parents, even of me (while I try to tell them that they have things I don't have too)!. Envy is good nor bad in my opinion. If you use it to better yourself as a person, work harder etc, it's a good thing. Both will win. But when you feel the need to destroy another person because of envy, as in "tall poppy syndrome" and you both lose, I think this is very bad and the sheer stupidity (because: utterly inefficient) of that mechanism bothers me.

These four individuals also feel entitled to a lot of things, and do not care if anybody else than themselves is treated unfairly (it seems that way, perhaps I'm overlooking something). They have a huge blind spot for injustice happening to other people. I don't trust that.

 

[chanteuse]

@Mithril

Why do you stay friends with unhealthy ppl? Every type can be unhealthy, not just INFJs.

I am good friends with several INTJs. We get along extremely well because we see the world and ppl in a similar fashion and are in tune with each other's undercurrent.

When both parties are well rounded and mature, they can be opposing types and can be good friends.

Therefore, you check self on why you stick around before seeing
them objectively to determine if they should be purged from your life.

PS.
It takes a long time for some INFJs to mature.

 

[Coopsickle]

They don't want you to fix their problems, they just want you to listen to them moan, give them a pat on the back and be "understanding". In all honesty I probably wouldn't talk to them, I get pissed off with people who don't want to help themselves or who can come up with every excuse under the sun as to why they can't do this or can't do that.

Sorry, not much help but there you go.

 

[BlackDog]

In my experience, INFJ's are really good at wallowing in self pity. At least the ones I know personally. That is something that does not jive with an INTJ. We are very solution oriented people.

That being said, I also get on very well with INFJ's, my best friend is one. Of the two INFJ's I know well, both tend to wallow but only one of them responds well to my tough love approach. I try to listen, and I am sympathetic. I do listen. I need to create solutions though, that is just how I am. If the wallowing doesn't stop, I can get harsh. I give them a little verbal slap, to snap them out of it. One of them responds well to this, and it clears her head and she just says 'thanks, man, I needed that'. Then we start being constructive, and it perks her up.

The other, this does not work. It seems to make things worse. He gets in a loop and it's like I am talking to myself. There is nothing I can do but let it run its course, and listen. If I agree with him, I feel like I am feeding negativity, so I avoid that. If I argue, he gets defensive, tries to turn it around on me and can be very harsh. He says I don't know anything and my opinion isn't valid. So I just have to let it ride, and not take it personally. I know it is just how he is.

Also in my experience, they can be jealous and envious, and very sensitive to fairness and justice. They aren't blind to it in others though, they are very aware of it. At least from what I've seen.

 

[chanteuse]

In my experience, INFJ's are really good at wallowing in self pity. At least the ones I know personally. That is something that does not jive with an INTJ. We are very solution oriented people.

That being said, I also get on very well with INFJ's, my best friend is one. Of the two INFJ's I know well, both tend to wallow but only one of them responds well to my tough love approach. I try to listen, and I am sympathetic. I do listen. I need to create solutions though, that is just how I am. If the wallowing doesn't stop, I can get harsh. I give them a little verbal slap, to snap them out of it. One of them responds well to this, and it clears her head and she just says 'thanks, man, I needed that'. Then we start being constructive, and it perks her up.

The other, this does not work. It seems to make things worse. He gets in a loop and it's like I am talking to myself. There is nothing I can do but let it run its course, and listen. If I agree with him, I feel like I am feeding negativity, so I avoid that. If I argue, he gets defensive, tries to turn it around on me and can be very harsh. He says I don't know anything and my opinion isn't valid. So I just have to let it ride, and not take it personally. I know it is just how he is.

Also in my experience, they can be jealous and envious, and very sensitive to fairness and justice. They aren't blind to it in others though, they are very aware of it. At least from what I've seen.

Very precise and right on in your observation on INFJs.

I think, when an INTJ is in a logical loop, he/she runs to hibernate. INFJs also have similar needs to get out of emotional loop. Since both are judgers, INTJ being more so, we may lose patient with the ones stuck in the loop.

As a feeler, I appreciate the mental slaps from thinkers. For some reason, having a voice of reason in time of crisis is very comforting to me. When something truly bad happens in my life I'd rather talk to a thinker (hopefully a perciever; they are very patient) than a feeler.

 

[Mithril]

@Mithril

Why do you stay friends with unhealthy ppl? Every type can be unhealthy, not just INFJs.

I am good friends with several INTJs. We get along extremely well because we see the world and ppl in a similar fashion and are in tune with each other's undercurrent.

When both parties are well rounded and mature, they can be opposing types and can be good friends.

Therefore, you check self on why you stick around before seeing
them objectively to determine if they should be purged from your life.

PS.
It takes a long time for some INFJs to mature.

I lost two of these friendships, because they would follow people that did not like me. After that, I just stopped caring about that person and thought it was for the better. . I did not like the herd behaviour and the lack of independent thought, which I assumed they were capable of, but were just too lazy to apply. These were people I hung out with for a long time, were close friends. But even during the friendships, I began to notice things. Being envious of petty stuff, not empathizing where empathy was logical. Only having empathy for certain individuals just because of the way they looked/ acted, not because they were actually worthy of empathy.

The others I stay friends with, because they are calm, insightful and intelligent, those are rare qualities. Aside from that, a lot of people I run into seem to be unhealthy. So I do not have a large pool of people to choose from.
I try to keep the remaining unhealthy INFJ's at distance though, because I do not fully trust their mood swings. Furthermore, I think I'm trying to stay friends, because part of me likes them and because people have most of my life been somewhat of a blind spot to me and I try to improve my people's skills in order to become more succesful. I never understood certain herd biases and the mechanism of being partial (what seems to be very important to qualify as having people skills), so I try to somehow make sense of that.

 

[Mithril]

They don't want you to fix their problems, they just want you to listen to them moan, give them a pat on the back and be "understanding". In all honesty I probably wouldn't talk to them, I get pissed off with people who don't want to help themselves or who can come up with every excuse under the sun as to why they can't do this or can't do that.

Sorry, not much help but there you go.

Well, at least you share my sentiment. I don't like the mental barriers some people put up either.

 

[Mithril]

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[Mithril]

In my experience, INFJ's are really good at wallowing in self pity. At least the ones I know personally. That is something that does not jive with an INTJ. We are very solution oriented people.

That being said, I also get on very well with INFJ's, my best friend is one. Of the two INFJ's I know well, both tend to wallow but only one of them responds well to my tough love approach. I try to listen, and I am sympathetic. I do listen. I need to create solutions though, that is just how I am. If the wallowing doesn't stop, I can get harsh. I give them a little verbal slap, to snap them out of it. One of them responds well to this, and it clears her head and she just says 'thanks, man, I needed that'. Then we start being constructive, and it perks her up.

The other, this does not work. It seems to make things worse. He gets in a loop and it's like I am talking to myself. There is nothing I can do but let it run its course, and listen. If I agree with him, I feel like I am feeding negativity, so I avoid that. If I argue, he gets defensive, tries to turn it around on me and can be very harsh. He says I don't know anything and my opinion isn't valid. So I just have to let it ride, and not take it personally. I know it is just how he is.

Also in my experience, they can be jealous and envious, and very sensitive to fairness and justice. They aren't blind to it in others though, they are very aware of it. At least from what I've seen.

Do your INFJ's understand that they try to help you? Can you make them understand, so that their feeling, which is very important to them, turns in relation to you?

 

[BlackDog]

Do your INFJ's understand that they try to help you? Can you make them understand, so that their feeling, which is very important to them, turns in relation to you?

I'm sorry, for some reason I am a bit confused by the question. Could you possibly rephrase or elaborate?

Do they understand that they try to help me or that I am trying to help them?

 

[BlackDog]

Very precise and right on in your observation on INFJs.

I think, when an INTJ is in a logical loop, he/she runs to hibernate. INFJs also have similar needs to get out of emotional loop. Since both are judgers, INTJ being more so, we may lose patient with the ones stuck in the loop.

As a feeler, I appreciate the mental slaps from thinkers. For some reason, having a voice of reason in time of crisis is very comforting to me. When something truly bad happens in my life I'd rather talk to a thinker (hopefully a perciever; they are very patient) than a feeler.

I think a lot of INFJs want the "shoulder to cry on" type of friend, which an INTJ will never be. However, what we want is not always what we need. I think INFJs need INTJs (or similar) in their lives, to remind them to focus on solutions and getting shit done. They need the mental slap and for somebody to take charge, to break them out of their loop. My best friend realizes this and comes to me specifically for these mental slaps, but my other close INFJ does not. Well, he kind of does, but he is more likely to fight me and get defensive than she is. He has been known to take shots at me and call me names in times of stress, which my female friend would never, ever, ever do. Those types of pity parties really irritate me, and I can only listen for so lomg before I say.enough is enough.

All that being said, I need INFJs too. I can be vulnerable around them in a way I cannot be with any other type, it seems. I need that. I find them safe and challenging at the same time. Like they will always have my back, come hell or high water, but they won't let me get away with ignoring my emotions for too long. Which I need.

 

[chanteuse]

I think a lot of INFJs want the "shoulder to cry on" type of friend, which an INTJ will never be. However, what we want is not always what we need. I think INFJs need INTJs (or similar) in their lives, to remind them to focus on solutions and getting shit done. They need the mental slap and for somebody to take charge, to break them out of their loop. My best friend realizes this and comes to me specifically for these mental slaps, but my other close INFJ does not. Well, he kind of does, but he is more likely to fight me and get defensive than she is. He has been known to take shots at me and call me names in times of stress, which my female friend would never, ever, ever do. Those types of pity parties really irritate me, and I can only listen for so lomg before I say.enough is enough.

All that being said, I need INFJs too. I can be vulnerable around them in a way I cannot be with any other type, it seems. I need that. I find them safe and challenging at the same time. Like they will always have my back, come hell or high water, but they won't let me get away with ignoring my emotions for too long. Which I need.

I do I do! Shoulder to cry on YES!!

I have a female INTJ friend at work that I come to every single time something big or small happened in my life. I love talking to her. Even if she's not saying much I feel better already. Such a rock she is.

What you talked about how you feel about INFJs I see that in a male INTJ that I want to date. In front of me I sensed his emotion so strongly that I had trouble breathing. Fe detects ppl's emotion therefore it wasn't only my one sided attraction.

In all, I really do love the level headedness of INTJs. They are so unaffected. I am so easily affected. And the wordless connection is other worldly. The INTJ friends and I seem to agree on a lot of subject matters, how we view the world and ppl. It's a blast!

 

[chanteuse]

I think a lot of INFJs want the "shoulder to cry on" type of friend, which an INTJ will never be. However, what we want is not always what we need. I think INFJs need INTJs (or similar) in their lives, to remind them to focus on solutions and getting shit done. They need the mental slap and for somebody to take charge, to break them out of their loop. My best friend realizes this and comes to me specifically for these mental slaps, but my other close INFJ does not. Well, he kind of does, but he is more likely to fight me and get defensive than she is. He has been known to take shots at me and call me names in times of stress, which my female friend would never, ever, ever do. Those types of pity parties really irritate me, and I can only listen for so lomg before I say.enough is enough.

All that being said, I need INFJs too. I can be vulnerable around them in a way I cannot be with any other type, it seems. I need that. I find them safe and challenging at the same time. Like they will always have my back, come hell or high water, but they won't let me get away with ignoring my emotions for too long. Which I need.

I think male INFJs are harder to deal with than female INFJs. I have a male INFJ friend who'd get defensive and take shots at me when I try to reason with him (he's 70 this year). They seem more emotionally volatile well into advanced age. He would also give me the the tough love when I was in trouble but he's very impatient when I was swallowed in grief and self pity.

I love this old dude but I can't be with him for too long. We can drive each other crazy from slapping each other.

 

[BlackDog]

I think male INFJs are harder to deal with than female INFJs. I have a male INFJ friend who'd get defensive and take shots at me when I try to reason with him (he's 70 this year). They seem more emotionally volatile well into advanced age. He would also gave the the tough love when I was in trouble because he's very impatient when I was swallowed in grief and self pity.

I love this old dude but I can't be with him for too long. We can drive each other crazy from slapping each other.

Yeah it can get a bit out of hand, even as INFJ and INTJ. Sometimes we bicker and we just feed off each other. He starts name calling and I start telling him to get a grip, stop being so pathetic. Anybody watching would think we hate each other. But then we always just go "lol we are so bad" and then forget about it.

 

[chanteuse]

Yeah it can get a bit out of hand, even as INFJ and INTJ. Sometimes we bicker and we just feed off each other. He starts name calling and I start telling him to get a grip, stop being so pathetic. Anybody watching would think we hate each other. But then we always just go "lol we are so bad" and then forget about it.

Another reason why I love Thinkers. They don't hold grudges, not like Feelers hold grudges.

I used to hold grudges. But I got that out of the way for the peace of my mind. It's a completely waste of energy, to hate someone for life.

INTJs can cut ppl off completely. I think it's not because they hate them. It has more to do with the ppl they leave behind serve no purpose in keeping in touch.

 

[BlackDog]

Yeah it can get a bit out of hand, even as INFJ and INTJ. Sometimes we bicker and we just feed off each other. He starts name calling and I start telling him to get a grip, stop being so pathetic. Anybody watching would think we hate each other. But then we always just go "lol we are so bad" and then forget about it.

Another reason why I love Thinkers. They don't hold grudges, not like Feelers hold grudges.

I used to hold grudges. But I got that out of the way for the peace of my mind. It's a completely waste of energy, to hate someone for life.

INTJs can cut ppl off completely. I think it's not because they hate them. It has more to do with the ppl they leave behind serve no purpose in keeping in touch.

I do cut people out. But like you said, not because I hate them. I just only have so much time and energy to spend on people and I would rather not waste it on people who I either don't think have anything to offer me, or who don't adequately reciprocate the loyalty/interaction that I expect. We can be friendly acquaintances but I don't "collect" friends like some people do. If you are in my life it is because I want you there.

That is one more thing I love about my relationships with my INFJs - we are so honest and direct with each other. I value that so much. I dislike insincerity. My INFJ friends never hold back on me. It is so honest and genuine. It is not based on superficialities. So much of my life has to be shallow, these deep relationships sustain me.

 

[Mithril]

I'm sorry, for some reason I am a bit confused by the question. Could you possibly rephrase or elaborate?

Do they understand that they try to help me or that I am trying to help them?

I am sorry for being unclear :blushed:. I meant to ask that if they are willing to see that you are trying to help with tough love/ bringing solutions? And if they understand, do they start to like you (even) more?

 

[Mithril]

Another reason why I love Thinkers. They don't hold grudges, not like Feelers hold grudges.

I used to hold grudges. But I got that out of the way for the peace of my mind. It's a completely waste of energy, to hate someone for life.

INTJs can cut ppl off completely. I think it's not because they hate them. It has more to do with the ppl they leave behind serve no purpose in keeping in touch.

Yes, I agree with the cutting off- part. I don't like to do that though, but I certainly do cut people off sometimes. I do that mostly if I see that a certain attitude, which I find stupid, does not change. Loyalty and keeping away from herd behaviour are characteristics I value highly. For example, I think nobody is ever entitled to treat me less well than somebody else, because I am not very popular and another person is. We are all human, after all.
But it's always a sum of factors and characteristics. One thing is not usually enough to make me want to cut someone off. Usually, there is something else that irks me about somebody. Like being extremely lazy or changing one's college major three times, because this person refuses to study for exams.

 

[BlackDog]

I am sorry for being unclear :blushed:. I meant to ask that if they are willing to see that you are trying to help with tough love/ bringing solutions? And if they understand, do they start to like you (even) more?

Don't apologize! I just wasn't sure I understood you correctly.

I think they know I am trying to help. I know at least one of them appreciates it. My best friend does for sure. Sometimes she tells me, I just need to vent. I can understand that, so I let her vent. I nod along. I think she usually wants constructive advice though, and knows that is how I offer my concern and my assistance.

 

[Mithril]

I do cut people out. But like you said, not because I hate them. I just only have so much time and energy to spend on people and I would rather not waste it on people who I either don't think have anything to offer me, or who don't adequately reciprocate the loyalty/interaction that I expect. We can be friendly acquaintances but I don't "collect" friends like some people do. If you are in my life it is because I want you there.

That is one more thing I love about my relationships with my INFJs - we are so honest and direct with each other. I value that so much. I dislike insincerity. My INFJ friends never hold back on me. It is so honest and genuine. It is not based on superficialities. So much of my life has to be shallow, these deep relationships sustain me.

The first part, I recognize. After I grew tired of herd behaviour of a large group I was in, with all the petty gossip, drama and backstabbing ("One girl starting every WhatsApp conversation with me with "Oh my God, I heard X did Y, can you believe it?!"), I decided to focus my energy on a handful of friends, who don't form a group with eachother. But I like to have a larger group of acquaintances. Whereas I was younger, I tried my best to be friends with more people (challenge), the group of acquaintances I know today has grown more organically.

I am happy for you that you have a good bound with INFJ's. I must confess that I always hold myself back when I am with them. 1) Because I found out that they don't appreciate certain topics/ opinions. 2) Knowledge is power and I don't want them to have power over me. Yes, I am a bit afraid of these (kind of unhealthy) INFJ's :laughing:.. I think, with a healthy and mature INFJ, this might be different.