[thegirlcandance]

So what kind of ideas to you guys typically end up coming up with?? Do you come up with good ones but always find yourself staying "within a box".

I've been noticing this with myself with this whole teaching thing. I will come up with an idea for a lesson, but its still fairly "straight-line" and not "out there", though my thinking and way the subject can be used and why it is important is outside the box.

So for example.... I could be teaching a lesson on animals and my idea to make it more interesting and to keep the lesson moving faster would be to initially cover the definitions of terms for the lesson, so more so of the concrete material (in order to give the kids a "base" and to adjust to the IEP students) and then once that is complete, do a problem solving activity to get the kids thinking about how this information could be applied to real-life and perhaps help them, and then perhaps show a video or pay a game if I can find one that correlates well to the lesson.

So, my ideas are certainly creative... but then there's the person with Ne who takes the same material of that lesson and decides to way outside the box. So like, to teach fire safety for example, brings the fire department in to show the kids how to put out a fire.
I don't know what an Ne would do when teaching about animals, because, well, I'm don't have Ne.

But you get my drift?? Its like you have these "A ha!" moments where you think you're idea is great, but then you see the Ne person come up with something way totally out there but somehow works.
Its a little frustrating sometimes because its like.... darn why can't my brain go that far out there?!

 

[whiteashes]

as far as i guess,
being out of the box means , not caring when you violate the conventional wisdom.

Well i dont know exactly how Ne works, but i remember the requirement to see the things working in real as a part of education. Ne is constantly scanning the external environment for its cues, and it makes a lot of difference to see it in real. And for things which cant be communicated in language.

Its more about Ne being external than being out of the box.
Both Ni and Ne ideas are equally out of the box , but Ne needs an External connection hence the difference.

 

[Linus]

yea^... I work in design, and my inspiration comes from experiencing things... whether it's seeing, or through the other senses.. a story, etc. Perhaps most designers work this way also, but based on what I've been through so far, I find other people are much more literal with their 'inspirations' while I am just taking the essence or meaning from what I see... just what I need, just what is important to me. It tends to be a feeling.. that I can find in virtually anything (in the end allowing me to constantly have ideas without even searching for them). Then, I "translate" this into design, since it's in another language, and what usually happens it actually looks nothing like what I started with --and people are not convinced that I was 'inspired by this thing' because they do not see the connection (@[email protected];;;; But of course --the connection had never been something tangible in the first place, so yea why would they see it.. I am often getting into arguments about it. I always say "It has nothing to do with what you see!" or "who cares what it looks like"... It is just about the idea...

 

[thegirlcandance]

Well i dont know exactly how Ne works

From cognitivieprocesses.com:
"Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts."

So, to sum it up Ne is more brainstorming and coming up with several possibilities rather than one. From what I've read and observed about myself with Ni, is that I've noticed I'm doing more "straight-line" idea creation. I'm taking many different factors into consideration to come up with one idea.... and when developing that idea I'm aware of what the outcome would be.

I guess compared to S types, it is still "outside the box" but it appears to not be near as far stretched out as that of someone with Ne.

 

[Vaka]

I'm really not exactly sure how Ni works, but I've read that it looks at things in a straight line that goes much further than Ne, right? That's part of it. Ne is more experimental and deals with many different ways of going about things. I usually don't have a very clear end-point in mind.

EDIT: I posted this before I read the post above this one :crazy:

 

[whiteashes]

From cognitivieprocesses.com:
"Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts."

So, to sum it up Ne is more brainstorming and coming up with several possibilities rather than one. From what I've read and observed about myself with Ni, is that I've noticed I'm doing more "straight-line" idea creation. I'm taking many different factors into consideration to come up with one idea.... and when developing that idea I'm aware of what the outcome would be.

I guess compared to S types, it is still "outside the box" but it appears to not be near as far stretched out as that of someone with Ne.

yeah Ne descriptions fits.

lol brainstorming! put things up in your mind and possibilities simply pop out. Well i dont know why Ne and Ni are different but i can confirm that with Ne most of the times outcomes are unexpected and you are definitely not aware of the outcomes, hence the unconventional and i simply dont know why its like that.

Its basically driven by a frustration of something that sucks, and then bang you come up with a crazy idea. you link them up and ideas builds upon themselves and this goes on. Which all is such a wonderful experience.

 

[thegirlcandance]

I was talking with an ENFJ earlier today regarding teacher-stuff and ideas with that.

What I realized is that Ni certainly has ideas, but they are just not obvious because they are not so "out of the box". For example, an INFJ and ENFJ with Ni will know exactly how they need to act in a given situation with a student who is challenging them in order to keep the kid under control.... even though they may not have ever been in a situation like that before. Ni allows us to be aware of that "transformation" that takes place with ourselves and others. It also helps us to make lessons that cover all the bases... meaning, make it concrete in nature for the special ed students while also adding problem solving activities. Also keeping visual aids, verbal instruction of connections to real-world, and any more creative activity if the subject allows for it -- so an example would be lab testing or collecting leaf samples if studying trees.

Ni is still creative... it just doesn't appear AS creative.


So I guess I kind of answered my own question eventually... but yet, I guess that is another thing about Ni. :laughing: However, my Fe does allow me to still desire that sense of empathy from others so more comments and discussion is welcome!! :happy:


... and sorry I keep using teaching as an example for everything. When you get into a job like that it becomes the only thing that is on your brain.

 

[thegirlcandance]

yeah Ne descriptions fits.

i can confirm that with Ne most of the times outcomes are unexpected and you are definitely not aware of the outcomes, hence the unconventional and i simply dont know why its like that.

.

That's another difference you can point out between Ni and Ne.

Ne = outcomes are completely unexpected
Ni = a "just knowing" of what the outcome will be... not 100% of the time, but many times.


Which, when you think about it... Ni and Ne combined would create something fierce.

 

[soul searcher]

I homeschooled my kids for several year, and one of them will be coming home again this year.

I found it somewhat difficult to engage their interest because they are sensors, and tend to learn very differently than I do. They need to run and jump and experience things, and I just wanted them to sit down and read some of the wonderful books I had chosen for them. Your lesson plans sound very similar to what I would do with them actually.

I learned from them though. I started trying to give them more real world learning experiences, which is what they really craved.

As far as other areas of life, I tend to have ideas that are so far out-of-the-box, that even fellow INFJ's would probably wonder at them. I don't know if those are the kind of ideas you are refering to, though.

 

[thegirlcandance]

I homeschooled my kids for several year, and one of them will be coming home again this year.

I found it somewhat difficult to engage their interest because they are sensors, and tend to learn very differently than I do. They need to run and jump and experience things, and I just wanted them to sit down and read some of the wonderful books I had chosen for them. Your lesson plans sound very similar to what I would do with them actually.

I learned from them though. I started trying to give them more real world learning experiences, which is what they really craved.

As far as other areas of life, I tend to have ideas that are so far out-of-the-box, that even fellow INFJ's would probably wonder at them. I don't know if those are the kind of ideas you are refering to, though.

Personally, I find making the "big picture" connections most interesting along with problem solving... which would probably be true for both NFs and NTs.

However, from what I've noticed is that the majority % of the classes are SJ or SP. Which, for these types that approach doesn't work as easily as I'd hope based on things I've tried.
SJs = need things concrete. So learning the vocabulary for the unit. I find it boring, but they need to learn that concrete stuff and memorize it in order to learn anything it seems. They also need a strong routine otherwise you throw them off.
SPs = Get them moving somehow. Even a little review activity that involves beating on desks can easily do the trick. The couple times I did that I noticed my one class that was mostly SPs were more settled and attentive during the more written and visual stuff.

I would like to imagine that any real-world experience with everyone regardless of type is ultimately the most beneficial, because what is the point of learning definitions if you can't apply it? Some kids just have SOO much trouble with that though... unfortunately.

 

[vel]

Yep, I usually combine factors I have observed to come up with one optimal idea or plan. I feel some weak type of brainstorming going on in my mind, but many ideas get rejected for various reasons. I simply get a sense that it is not workable, not efficient, not beneficial enough, not new, etc. I have observed an interesting phenomenon in this respect - at times Ne users come up with exact same ideas that my mind has gone over, but their behavior about these ideas is different, however. They get excited about them and start discussing them with other people. They seem to get very strong 'feel-good' kind of excitation impulses from pretty much any new thought that they generate whereas I feel I need to refine it first before I do anything about it. I think this is because Ni really wants to come up with perfect plan, perfect model, that so many 'smaller' ideas get rejected and Ni user is not satisfied lest he or she comes up with something totally mind-blowing. But sometimes it is simple ideas that can make all the difference.

Ni studies existing connections and compiles an extensive collection of them and when thinking a Ni user is likely to just run along these already existing connections. I think this is where 'in the box' feeling comes from. But many of these existing connections are not apparent to other people. Creativity of having well-developed Ni comes from seeing these and once in a while deriving some complicated pattern. It might seem common sense things to the INFJ but as I have discovered it often may not be as apparent to other people as it would be to you just because they lack in Ni. I am remembering to a particular video where Vicky Jo is interviewing another woman who is also INFJ, the part where the woman states where she thought that what is apparent to her is also apparent to other people. Thus she rarely spoke up. And then over time she discovered that no, she has insight many others don't have. Then she started sharing her thoughts with others.

Ne is about making new connections. It's like having a zebra and a stop light click together in your mind when you are driving and thinking about going to a zoo over the weekend is some strange way that seems to work out. I think in the mind of a Ne user a lot of random things just keep clicking together like this. The downside is that a good portion of such thinking is very out there, not workable, to the point of being absurd. Sometimes I feel Ne work in my mind. It has me generating and putting out ideas to other people that what I come back to my INFJ mode seem silly to me. Ne needs some refinement as without refinement it does not lead anywhere and cannot be applied in life. Ne users however may struggle to refine their own ideas and ground them. This is domain of Ni users. Ne can generate a lot of what ifs and Ni can pinpoint the optimal one.

In teaching my Ni has helped me pinpoint what it is exactly that my students are struggling with understanding. First quarter as a TA was horrible as I didn't know how to use some instruments and didn't anticipate some scheduling. Grading the final exam I saw students making some very simple mistakes. Second quarter I tried to improve, at least I got all the instruments figured out and the scheduling down, so I spent more time on teaching rather than learning myself or trying to make up mistakes. Still second quarter I saw students struggle with some basic problems. So over spring break I then complied all these observations together and drafted a series of quizzes and handouts that hit exactly the areas I saw several people struggle with. And voila - third quarter my class scored over 10 points on average above other classes on final exam. The final quarter a student wrote me a thank you card. It was funny as she stated that she thought I was crazy with my teaching approach at the beginning, but at the end she saw how I helped her to really advance her understanding and she was happy with the good grade she got in this class. This is how Ni creativity works out with teaching. I guess it is easier with college level students, as they care more about their GPA, not how imaginative and entertaining you make the class be as a teacher.

 

[whiteashes]

Which, when you think about it... Ni and Ne combined would create something fierce.

INFJ psychology is kinda mysterious and attracts in a different ways. I never meet an INFJ but i do get the essence of it.
Its sometimes hard to comprehend the discussions on INFJ forum.

What i get is Ne is very domain specific and Ni is imaginative and deep. Ne is driven to Invent something and Ni is drawn to find deeper meanings in life in general.
Ne provides the Ni an external connection and Ni helps Ne find deeper meanings of external Inventions.

 

[annemarie]

hmm, this is an interesting post. Some of the ideas i have are certainly unconventional. These ideas are usually generated when i'm out of the public gaze or completely alone in my room.

Perhaps this is another differentiation to Ne? my ideas CAN BE out of the box, but you may not know this when i am at work or around other people im not close to. i am certainly MORE GUIDED about my unconventional thoughts around others...not neccessarily unable to share them though.

 

[Cauliflower]

To tell you the truth I didn't really get the process that Ni and Ne go through...and now I'm not sure what I'm using...

When I need to make something, I always come up with the main theme first, which is the hardest part...the theme is the message I would try to convey. This part is purely just so I would find personal interest to make it enjoyable. If I skip this, I feel like nothing connects, and it's all just too random stuff and not together...

After finding the theme I build a "skeleton", meaning I have to find a technical way for explaining my message. This part is not about making it look or sound good, it's all about bringing new ideas to see how they would work together. At this point, if people are working with me, they would think what I'm doing is rubbish, they want to get the job done step by step, completing every part before moving on to the next. I have to either work alone, or be the one whose making all the decisions...anyhow, I need the "skeleton" so that my work would have some kind of consistent order to it, so that every detail would have a reason for why it's there.

After I come up with a scheme, I go for the details, which is the easiest part cause most of the work is done, and this is where I could bring out my sense of aesthetics...

It's very fulfilling to go through that process, it's longer, but that's the only way I can find the motivation to get things done, I have to find a way of really making myself interested in them... :S

Yep, I usually combine factors I have observed to come up with one optimal idea or plan. I feel some weak type of brainstorming going on in my mind, but many ideas get rejected for various reasons. I simply get a sense that it is not workable, not efficient, not beneficial enough, not new, etc...I think this is because Ni really wants to come up with perfect plan, perfect model, that so many 'smaller' ideas get rejected and Ni user is not satisfied lest he or she comes up with something totally mind-blowing. But sometimes it is simple ideas that can make all the difference.

I actually don't reject ideas so fast, I try them first, and if they don't work then I move on, I might even get back to them later, if I think they would fit...I try not to reject ideas at all, cause it kills my creativity...I like trying all sorts of combinations together...and I could never tell how it would end up, I only have the message I would like to express as a given...so does this mean that I'm using Ne? or that I got it all wrong?

 

[whiteashes]

Yep, I usually combine factors I have observed to come up with one optimal idea or plan. I feel some weak type of brainstorming going on in my mind, but many ideas get rejected for various reasons. I simply get a sense that it is not workable, not efficient, not beneficial enough, not new, etc. I have observed an interesting phenomenon in this respect - at times Ne users come up with exact same ideas that my mind has gone over, but their behavior about these ideas is different, however. They get excited about them and start discussing them with other people. They seem to get very strong 'feel-good' kind of excitation impulses from pretty much any new thought that they generate whereas I feel I need to refine it first before I do anything about it. I think this is because Ni really wants to come up with perfect plan, perfect model, that so many 'smaller' ideas get rejected and Ni user is not satisfied lest he or she comes up with something totally mind-blowing. But sometimes it is simple ideas that can make all the difference.

Yes that's true , the excitement part. I often see, getting myself excited over ideas already existing.
Like when we read the book and the ideas given in it.
The excitement is because of some different and deeper understanding of the same idea - different than what is given in the book. Which helps you apply it in more useful ways.

Ne is about making new connections. It's like having a zebra and a stop light click together in your mind when you are driving and thinking about going to a zoo over the weekend is some strange way that seems to work out. I think in the mind of a Ne user a lot of random things just keep clicking together like this. The downside is that a good portion of such thinking is very out there, not workable, to the point of being absurd. Sometimes I feel Ne work in my mind. It has me generating and putting out ideas to other people that what I come back to my INFJ mode seem silly to me. Ne needs some refinement as without refinement it does not lead anywhere and cannot be applied in life. Ne users however may struggle to refine their own ideas and ground them. This is domain of Ni users. Ne can generate a lot of what ifs and Ni can pinpoint the optimal one.

naahh... I cant get into details but I can tell Ne is not directionless, we are often very confident of our ideas. Direction can be implicit but its there.
Ne can generate a lot of possibilities and actually refining the ideas is one of the most interesting part of it.
Its the Ti which helps to analyze the possibilities and makes them efficient, refine and optimized.
I dont see the struggle. What you are saying can be possible if thinking is not developed and not properly used with Ne.

There are only two Dominant Ne users ENFP and ENTP and they are said to have very deep understanding of their environment and its very true.
as stated on the website- personalitypage.com

 

[thegirlcandance]

I am remembering to a particular video where Vicky Jo is interviewing another woman who is also INFJ, the part where the woman states where she thought that what is apparent to her is also apparent to other people. Thus she rarely spoke up. And then over time she discovered that no, she has insight many others don't have. Then she started sharing her thoughts with others.

I saw this too and it is so true. When I was younger I never wanted to say certain stuff because I figured that others thought the same thing. With age and experience I noticed people failing to notice things that I would see so I'll say them more. Now that I'm getting into teaching now I've noticed that I'm also less afraid to voice that opinion... I'm now developing an attitude of "This is my idea and thoughts... if you are going to criticize it then I will argue my reasoning with you and I'm not going to be afraid." Dealing with kids challenging my reasoning for doing things all day every day has lead me to be more assertive in that sense.

In teaching my Ni has helped me pinpoint what it is exactly that my students are struggling with understanding. First quarter as a TA was horrible as I didn't know how to use some instruments and didn't anticipate some scheduling. Grading the final exam I saw students making some very simple mistakes. Second quarter I tried to improve, at least I got all the instruments figured out and the scheduling down, so I spent more time on teaching rather than learning myself or trying to make up mistakes. Still second quarter I saw students struggle with some basic problems. So over spring break I then complied all these observations together and drafted a series of quizzes and handouts that hit exactly the areas I saw several people struggle with. And voila - third quarter my class scored over 10 points on average above other classes on final exam. The final quarter a student wrote me a thank you card. It was funny as she stated that she thought I was crazy with my teaching approach at the beginning, but at the end she saw how I helped her to really advance her understanding and she was happy with the good grade she got in this class. This is how Ni creativity works out with teaching. I guess it is easier with college level students, as they care more about their GPA, not how imaginative and entertaining you make the class be as a teacher.

I can very well relate to what you're saying. The kids get frustrated that I give them homework, quizzes, and exams but that's how I measure my own effectiveness. I'll write a test on what I figure will be easy, but the results are not always what I think they should be. Then I'll also throw in some more challenging questions for extra credit just to see what they can handle or not. After the end of every lesson and unit I can see what little things I can do to improve so more understand rather than the 3-4 really smart kids in the class with no IEPs.

I would say it is easier teaching college too -- you don't have to worry about classroom management so much and the kids put forth more effort because they have made the decision and are paying money to be there. In high school you have the kids that care and the ones that have no motivation to do anything -- you have them do active stuff and they screw off, so you contain them in a room going over terms and they sleep. The sad part is that all it does is disrupt the kids that genuinely want to learn something and want me to help them.

 

[thegirlcandance]

Part of what triggered me to start this thread was after dealing with a classmate of mine who is student teaching at the same time I currently am. I'm starting to wonder if he is an ENTP... which you would think I would get along with him great, but by nurture he tends to annoy the shit out of me.

Why does he annoy me?
- Very close-minded in a conservative manner... like, very strong Christian which is fine but he then proceeds to judge others who do not follow his values.
- He acts arrogant and makes comments as if he is the best person in the world all the time... then proceeds to not really associate with other classmates unless he needs help with something.... which is typically something that has to do with organization and paperwork.
- He does not really hesitate to criticize others. I've seen him tell some people to their face that he thought their boyfriend/girlfriend was weird... even though often people think he is weird because of his values.
- His crazy lesson ideas make me instantly think Ne.

It just puzzles me because whenever I'm around him I feel as if I'm not even good enough to be in his presence. I can think of two ENTP friends that I know that are absolutely awesome and I get along with them great despite our differences and viewpoints.
But this guy just really gets on my nerves.... funny how the type we are given is one thing but our experiences and what we choose to do with it is totally another.

 

[vel]

I actually don't reject ideas so fast, I try them first, and if they don't work then I move on, I might even get back to them later, if I think they would fit...I try not to reject ideas at all, cause it kills my creativity...I like trying all sorts of combinations together...and I could never tell how it would end up, I only have the message I would like to express as a given...so does this mean that I'm using Ne? or that I got it all wrong?

It doesn't happen fast for me but is part of a long on-going optimization process. It is was just surprising to observe how differently Ne-dominants treat same ideas that occurred both to both of us. Definitely made me pay more attention to my own way of thinking.

If you are generating some new connections, not discovering existing ones, then yes that should be Ne working. If things are clicking together in your mind as in "oh that's how it really works together" then this is Ni working and discovering existing connections.

naahh... I cant get into details but I can tell Ne is not directionless, we are often very confident of our ideas. Direction can be implicit but its there.
Ne can generate a lot of possibilities and actually refining the ideas is one of the most interesting part of it.
Its the Ti which helps to analyze the possibilities and makes them efficient, refine and optimized.
I dont see the struggle. What you are saying can be possible if thinking is not developed and not properly used with Ne.

There are only two Dominant Ne users ENFP and ENTP and they are said to have very deep understanding of their environment and its very true.
as stated on the website- personalitypage.com

I meant to say it felt directionless compared to my Ni. Ni behaves very quietly for a long period of time, then it is like *boom* this is what I should do. Whenever I remembered myself flipping into my shadow mode ENFP I feel like I am really being pulled in many more short-lived directions. Sometimes something good comes out of it - and sometimes I just waste time.

Another example of this: I am part of a gamer group that plays a particular online game together. Among four leaders of this group one has Ne dominant and two are Ne auxiliary. They come up with a lot of ideas about which they get really excited and start long discussion threads with others. But at times I hear members of the group complain because they were advertised idea X, told to buy all the equipment for it and train up specific abilities for it, but idea was rarely put into use. So other players felt like their resources and time were spread thin. This is what I meant by optimization - our Ne leaders don't seem to excel at doing cost-benefit analysis. In the bigger picture of things I think that they are so immersed into the game and kind of wasting their talent and many hours of their time there imho is another result of them being unable to do this kind of cost-benefit analysis.

 

[whiteashes]

Part of what triggered me to start this thread was after dealing with a classmate of mine who is student teaching at the same time I currently am. I'm starting to wonder if he is an ENTP... which you would think I would get along with him great, but by nurture he tends to annoy the shit out of me.

Why does he annoy me?
- Very close-minded in a conservative manner... like, very strong Christian which is fine but he then proceeds to judge others who do not follow his values.

ENTP's are rarely conservative actually opposite of conservative. We are generally cool with people and their values till they get in our ways of doing things.

- He acts arrogant and makes comments as if he is the best person in the world all the time... then proceeds to not really associate with other classmates unless he needs help with something.... which is typically something that has to do with organization and paperwork.

that's funny.I wouldnt do that.
Maybe he's just acting as a jerk purposefully but cant say for sure.

- He does not really hesitate to criticize others. I've seen him tell some people to their face that he thought their boyfriend/girlfriend was weird... even though often people think he is weird because of his values.


- His crazy lesson ideas make me instantly think Ne.

It just puzzles me because whenever I'm around him I feel as if I'm not even good enough to be in his presence. I can think of two ENTP friends that I know that are absolutely awesome and I get along with them great despite our differences and viewpoints.
But this guy just really gets on my nerves.... funny how the type we are given is one thing but our experiences and what we choose to do with it is totally another.

I cant say if he's an ENTP or not, but i know there's are ENTP 's which annoy the heck out of me too.
And there are some INFJ's also. =)

What i have observed is MBTI tells only half the story of a person. And another half is the person itself.
We often dont consider that.

The maturity is purely a personal issue and it makes a huge difference even within the same types.
Some people simply dont mature and some people mature very fast irrespective of what their type is.
Which does make a huge difference in their overall personality within the same type.

 

[whiteashes]

---Deleted --- Reason: Double posted it. See the next one.