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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have read up a lot on MBTI and I've started looking into socionics a little bit. I think the things that turned me off of socionics were firstly that there is this whole aspect of what you look like being a factor in what your type is(I don't know to what degree all the proponents of socionics actually take that seriously), secondly the duality relations don't make much sense to me at a glance(can't imagine myself thinking an ESTj is "too good for me" sorry), but I understand them in theory and I don't believe I have known an ESTj yet anyway, thirdly I never seem to relate to descriptions of INFj quite as much as I do INFP. INFjs seem to me to always be described as somewhat conservative, serious, hardworking perfectionists. These aren't things that I relate to very much. I think of myself as a creative, nonconventional loner. I have taken socionics tests and I'm always typed as INFj.
What did cause me to become interested in socionics again was that the descriptions of type relations that I am able to compare to my experiences are all pretty close. Like, for example, the ISTp that I dated in high school. It was unsuccessful for reasons that are not type related, but there has always been this energy between us that I can't explain. Basically, if I'm talking about him I don't really have a single good thing to say about him. I really don't think he has a modicum of respect for me. But we never argue and even when he has said things that are infuriating to me I usually just steam about it for a while and then it's like, "Eh, that's just the way he is..." and I end up not minding it which is not really how I would feel if most people insulted me. And when we spend time together the conversation is easy and we are constantly making each other laugh.
So on to the INTp that I have been dating for around two years. The descriptions I have read of relations of benefit seem to be pretty close in a lot of ways. I haven't shared this with him because they are so negative in tone and I don't want to send him the wrong message. He was the one who initiated our relationship and at first I wasn't very impressed with him. The first few times we talked I think I assumed that we happened to be discussing things that he was particularly interested in and that was why he was so knowledgeable about them. But after spending more time with him I realized that these were actually things he was only mildly interested in and that he is that knowledgeable about everything. When discussing those things that are his biggest area of interest, his knowledge is astonishing. So, at the point of this realization I became completely intimidated and it was really difficult for me to talk to him at all. Over time this isn't as much of a problem and these are feelings that I've discussed with him already and I think he was flattered.
We don't have arguments but every time there is a problem it seems to be a problem that I have. I will either decide that I'm overreacting and then I'll be sad/irritable for a time with no explanation, or I will decide that it's worthy of discussion and then he'll apologize and we get on with it. But he has NEVER ONCE made any complaint about me. He says he feels bad when he can't make me happy. Sometimes I think he must have problems that he isn't discussing because how on earth could he not have a single issue with me in two years time? I am moody and inconsistent and I'm afraid of commitment and I can't face my future. He's never made any kind of complaint about these flaws.
So I guess what I want to ask is if it seems like we are following a typical path in our relationship for people of our types? And does this mean that I will begin picking at his imperfections more and more until it ruins our relationship? Or that as he becomes more and more a normal part of my life and less and less a lofty figure on a pedestal that I will get bored with him and detach? And if so is there something I can do to change the course of things? The truth is that I have grown a lot from knowing him. I think I'm much more grounded in reality. I'm more practical about my future than I was before, I have a more realistic sense of self, and more reasonable expectations. I don't know if there are any ways that he feels he has grown by knowing me. I do think that he respects me. He always tells me that I'm talented and intelligent and he sincerely asks me for my opinion about things. He seems excited to share his accomplishments with me and to get my input.
Here is an example of a conversation after he had read a story that I wrote:
"I liked it. You write really well. I want to try writing stories like that, but when I sit down to try I can never get started."
"You should try jotting down any ideas you get at any time in a notebook so that you have a lot of material to work with when you get started."
"Okay, I'll try that!"
So would that be a conversation that people with this kind of relationship would have? Because from what I've read a Benefactor would usually not really value anything a Beneficiary has to say and wouldn't think that they give good advice.
But when descriptions of these relations are talking about this inability to accept help or advice from the Beneficiary, is it specifically referring to the Fi function? Because I don't really think I've done anything to help him improve his emotional depth or value judgments. Usually when we are discussing our deepest emotions we both struggle to find the right words. When I try to explain a complex emotion to him, I find myself trying to put it in terms that are "normal" and when I try to describe it in the most truthful and complete way, I find that I really dislike the way I come off. I think that I sound like I'm trying to be really deep or like I'm trying to make a normal emotion sound like something that is unique to me. I don't have this problem when I'm talking about myself with people other than him. Could this be a manifestation of an inability on the part of a Beneficiary to use their strength with the Benefactor?
I know this is long and rambling and I will really appreciate anybody who wants to take the time to read it and address my concerns.
 

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I refuse to read this until you space your paragraphs out correctly.
wait what is the that prioritizes good aesthetics
there is a dichotomy
like if something is wrong in some ways, it becomes evil and bad
and if something is not wrong or good its good
like
i will oppose reading something or doing something if it makes me annoyed or bored
or if its uninteresting or the format sucks
let me seee
constructivist vs. emotivist
r u emotivist
 

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the duality relations don't make much sense to me at a glance(can't imagine myself thinking an ESTj is "too good for me" sorry), but I understand them in theory and I don't believe I have known an ESTj yet anyway
Why not? LSEs are normally extremely knowledgeable and caring, and this is what impresses their dual.

I've known one of my duals since long before I discovered Socionics. He impressed me with his incredible social skills, his ability to debate with me on everything, and the fact that he agreed with me on countless things. He worries about his inconsistent beliefs, but I don't notice it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Why not? LSEs are normally extremely knowledgeable and caring, and this is what impresses their dual.

I've known one of my duals since long before I discovered Socionics. He impressed me with his incredible social skills, his ability to debate with me on everything, and the fact that he agreed with me on countless things. He worries about his inconsistent beliefs, but I don't notice it.
Maybe because I haven't ever known one very well and they aren't how I'm imagining them? I like a lot of things about Te, but I don't find much to admire about Si. I guess since the Te would be dominant I would get along with them better than the ISTp that I knew. I don't think I've ever been friends with an extrovert who wasn't a feeling type though...
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
So, why is it that the INTp would be able to help the INFj with Te, but the INFj would be unable to help the INTp with Fi? Does it have something to do with what order the functions are in?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't know about your boyfriend's type, but the Ne ramble is unmistakable. You're definitely a delta NF, so you can put that question to rest.
What does "delta" NF mean? I'm pretty convinced that I use Ne and Fi so if I'm not INFj then I think I'd probably have to be ENFp, but still neither of them seem quite right, maybe because I need to do more reading, ha.
 

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They are talking about quadras which I find very inaccurately labeled for my case but very insightful as independent beings. Like how beta quadra fits me like a glove and delta leaves a distaste.

lol, Ne rambles and walls of texts.

Highlight people ! don't be so mean.
 

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....

So on to the INTp that I have been dating for around two years. The descriptions I have read of relations of benefit seem to be pretty close in a lot of ways. I haven't shared this with him because they are so negative in tone and I don't want to send him the wrong message.

....

So I guess what I want to ask is if it seems like we are following a typical path in our relationship for people of our types? And does this mean that I will begin picking at his imperfections more and more until it ruins our relationship?

....

Usually when we are discussing our deepest emotions we both struggle to find the right words. When I try to explain a complex emotion to him, I find myself trying to put it in terms that are "normal" and when I try to describe it in the most truthful and complete way, I find that I really dislike the way I come off. I think that I sound like I'm trying to be really deep or like I'm trying to make a normal emotion sound like something that is unique to me. I don't have this problem when I'm talking about myself with people other than him. Could this be a manifestation of an inability on the part of a Beneficiary to use their strength with the Benefactor?

....
Edit ... cut!

Selena87 pointed out ...

"While this is sound advice, I think she is talking about Socionics INFj and INTp, which loosely translate into INFP and INTJ in MBTI terms."

I missed that. The advice (about MBTI INFJ - INTP) does not apply to your relationship.


Welcome to the forums, Famousblueraincoat!
 

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Evidently, socionics says that an INFJ - INTP romantic relationship isn't likely to turn out very well over the long term. The MBTI type description says, in effect, the same ...
While this is sound advice, I think she is talking about Socionics INFj and INTp, which loosely translate into INFP and INTJ in MBTI terms.
 

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So on to the INTp that I have been dating for around two years. The descriptions I have read of relations of benefit seem to be pretty close in a lot of ways. I haven't shared this with him because they are so negative in tone and I don't want to send him the wrong message. He was the one who initiated our relationship and at first I wasn't very impressed with him. The first few times we talked I think I assumed that we happened to be discussing things that he was particularly interested in and that was why he was so knowledgeable about them. But after spending more time with him I realized that these were actually things he was only mildly interested in and that he is that knowledgeable about everything. When discussing those things that are his biggest area of interest, his knowledge is astonishing. So, at the point of this realization I became completely intimidated and it was really difficult for me to talk to him at all. Over time this isn't as much of a problem and these are feelings that I've discussed with him already and I think he was flattered.
We don't have arguments but every time there is a problem it seems to be a problem that I have. I will either decide that I'm overreacting and then I'll be sad/irritable for a time with no explanation, or I will decide that it's worthy of discussion and then he'll apologize and we get on with it. But he has NEVER ONCE made any complaint about me. He says he feels bad when he can't make me happy. Sometimes I think he must have problems that he isn't discussing because how on earth could he not have a single issue with me in two years time? I am moody and inconsistent and I'm afraid of commitment and I can't face my future. He's never made any kind of complaint about these flaws.

Because from what I've read a Benefactor would usually not really value anything a Beneficiary has to say and wouldn't think that they give good advice.
But when descriptions of these relations are talking about this inability to accept help or advice from the Beneficiary, is it specifically referring to the Fi function? Because I don't really think I've done anything to help him improve his emotional depth or value judgments. Usually when we are discussing our deepest emotions we both struggle to find the right words. When I try to explain a complex emotion to him, I find myself trying to put it in terms that are "normal" and when I try to describe it in the most truthful and complete way, I find that I really dislike the way I come off. I think that I sound like I'm trying to be really deep or like I'm trying to make a normal emotion sound like something that is unique to me. I don't have this problem when I'm talking about myself with people other than him. Could this be a manifestation of an inability on the part of a Beneficiary to use their strength with the Benefactor?
As an INTp I don't place much value in judgments made by Fi. The reason he can improve your Te is because you listen to him, but you can't improve his Fi because he is unable to truly "listen" to you. In his world this stuff is automatically filtrated out as if it was of no use, and I don't think it's either of your fault. But it isn't something obtrusive either, you both have similar ways of thinking and feeling. Fi is just more of an unconscious thing for him.

I think you'd put it as a struggle to find the right words, but for him it's more like it's hard to grip the emotions so that he can describe them properly, not the actual describing itself. It's no wonder people say logic has no power in the land of emotions.

It's also an INTp thing to not discuss our weaknesses so openly. He's most likely very aware of them himself, but he'll work through them on his own in his own time. You are his project of improvement (we love improving things and we'll never give up on a partner), he's attached to you and it's obvious that you two have a respect for each other.

Maybe he isn't complaining about what you see as weaknesses in yourself because he doesn't necessarily always see them as such? You probably make him feel very good as well. :)
 

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@famousblueraincoat

You're using the P=j and J=p assumption. This is not fact. This is an assumption made to make up for the lack of a translation table by the originators of either system. Some of the Socionics tests follow this assumption as well, asking similar J/P questions as MBTI, and then swap the letters to match the P=j and J=p assumption.

INFj is beneficiary to INTp. ISFp is beneficiary to INFj.

However,

INFp is benefactor to INTj.

Thing about the ben. relationship, is the one who actually has the upper hand from a logical standpoint, the beneficiary, becomes the one trying to please the one who has the most to gain, the benefactor. The Benefactors use of the creative function activates and reactivates the beneficiary's suggestive function, telling the beneficiary that this is something good that can be gained. However, the Mobilizing function of the beneficiary is weak and unvalued by the Benefactor, leaving the Beneficiary's Mobilizing function void. The benefactor, on the other hand, does not have his Suggestive function activated, and therefore knows unconsciously that this is definitely not his dual. The Mobilizing function of the benefactor, though, is sporadically met by the sporadic use of the beneficiary's creative function. So, the Benefactor gets what his Hidden Agenda wants and at the correct frequency, and the beneficiary gets something he wants and at the wrong frequency. The Suggestive function is also called the dual-seeking function, and because of such, the beneficiary's strong desire for the dual causes the ben. relationship to exist indefinitely, and at the beneficiary's expense, since the benefactor gets more of what he wants and is never tricked into thinking the beneficiary might be the dual.

I have been benefactor and beneficiary. Beneficiary on an online side-project, so I only lost my idle time. However, the ISFp women I have known, come to the point where if I wasn't Fi leading function, these women would have thrown away their entire lives to me and eagerly.

Benefactor... And beneficiary... The names are slightly an ironic and sadistic joke, as the real relationship is actually the opposite of each word. Benefactor gets it all and ends up for the better. Beneficiary gets jack and ends up the worse.

What you are describing is you being the Benefactor, not the Beneficiary.

Your ISTp, if you used the translation assumption, would be an ISTJ. If the translation assumption is wrong, this would make you an INFp and he an ISTj, each other's activity, and the INTp an INTj, your beneficiary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
@famousblueraincoat

You're using the P=j and J=p assumption. This is not fact. This is an assumption made to make up for the lack of a translation table by the originators of either system. Some of the Socionics tests follow this assumption as well, asking similar J/P questions as MBTI, and then swap the letters to match the P=j and J=p assumption.

INFj is beneficiary to INTp. ISFp is beneficiary to INFj.

However,

INFp is benefactor to INTj.

Thing about the ben. relationship, is the one who actually has the upper hand from a logical standpoint, the beneficiary, becomes the one trying to please the one who has the most to gain, the benefactor. The Benefactors use of the creative function activates and reactivates the beneficiary's suggestive function, telling the beneficiary that this is something good that can be gained. However, the Mobilizing function of the beneficiary is weak and unvalued by the Benefactor, leaving the Beneficiary's Mobilizing function void. The benefactor, on the other hand, does not have his Suggestive function activated, and therefore knows unconsciously that this is definitely not his dual. The Mobilizing function of the benefactor, though, is sporadically met by the sporadic use of the beneficiary's creative function. So, the Benefactor gets what his Hidden Agenda wants and at the correct frequency, and the beneficiary gets something he wants and at the wrong frequency. The Suggestive function is also called the dual-seeking function, and because of such, the beneficiary's strong desire for the dual causes the ben. relationship to exist indefinitely, and at the beneficiary's expense, since the benefactor gets more of what he wants and is never tricked into thinking the beneficiary might be the dual.

I have been benefactor and beneficiary. Beneficiary on an online side-project, so I only lost my idle time. However, the ISFp women I have known, come to the point where if I wasn't Fi leading function, these women would have thrown away their entire lives to me and eagerly.

Benefactor... And beneficiary... The names are slightly an ironic and sadistic joke, as the real relationship is actually the opposite of each word. Benefactor gets it all and ends up for the better. Beneficiary gets jack and ends up the worse.

What you are describing is you being the Benefactor, not the Beneficiary.

Your ISTp, if you used the translation assumption, would be an ISTJ. If the translation assumption is wrong, this would make you an INFp and he an ISTj, each other's activity, and the INTp an INTj, your beneficiary.
Before sending the defensive response I had originally typed, I decided to read descriptions of INFp and INTj on sociotype.com(go ahead and let me know whether this is a good resource or not.) I definitely relate to the personality description that's given of INFp more than the descriptions I've read of INFj. That being said, I read the descriptions there of INTj and INTp and I cannot see any way that he's INTj and not INTp. So if he's INTp and I'm INFp that would make us comparative and that really doesn't sound like us. So something still isn't coming up right. The cognitive functions of MBTI INFP fit me to a t. Does that say anything about what I might be typed as in socionics? How much similarity is there between socionics cognitive functions and MBTI cognitive functions? I assumed that they were basically the same, or very similar, which is why I never bothered looking into INFp as my type, since I am very much not INFJ. It's not that I assumed being INFP automatically made me INFj, but I did think of it as a good starting place for figuring out my type since the cognitive functions are the same.
How possible do you think it is that I'm INFj? Could you(or anybody) give me an example of a socionics test that isn't going to make the assumption you're talking about? I'm definitely going to be looking into INFp as a possibility as well now, but this confuses things as far as my boyfriend's type and the kind of relations we're talking about here.
I understood very little of your description of relations of benefit because I'm unfamiliar with the terminology that you used. I do appreciate you trying to help me out, but I'm very new to this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
As an INTp I don't place much value in judgments made by Fi. The reason he can improve your Te is because you listen to him, but you can't improve his Fi because he is unable to truly "listen" to you. In his world this stuff is automatically filtrated out as if it was of no use, and I don't think it's either of your fault. But it isn't something obtrusive either, you both have similar ways of thinking and feeling. Fi is just more of an unconscious thing for him.

I think you'd put it as a struggle to find the right words, but for him it's more like it's hard to grip the emotions so that he can describe them properly, not the actual describing itself. It's no wonder people say logic has no power in the land of emotions.

It's also an INTp thing to not discuss our weaknesses so openly. He's most likely very aware of them himself, but he'll work through them on his own in his own time. You are his project of improvement (we love improving things and we'll never give up on a partner), he's attached to you and it's obvious that you two have a respect for each other.

Maybe he isn't complaining about what you see as weaknesses in yourself because he doesn't necessarily always see them as such? You probably make him feel very good as well. :)
Thank you for saying all of that. :) I don't necessarily want him to make the same complaints about me as I make about myself, it's just that he doesn't criticize me at all. It would be nice to think that that means he likes every little obnoxious thing about me, but I don't think that's very realistic.
There are definitely Te type criticisms like, "Actually, that isn't true." etc. But there's obviously a difference between telling someone that a statement they made is inaccurate and telling them that their behavior is hurtful or unfair. I'm sure this has something to do with one of us being a thinking type and one of us being a feeling type, but I can't think that being a thinking type could mean that you'd never be frustrated with the way your lover treats you, only with the accuracy of their statements...
Does Fi being unconscious make it so that if there is a criticism like this about my behavior, he wouldn't really experience it very strongly or consider it to be something that matters much? So that where a feeling type would go, "Quit sulking like a child and say what's bothering you." he would just note that the sulking is occurring and maybe that it is not an admirable quality, but wouldn't think it is a big deal? By working on them on his own in his own time do you mean that if he did have a criticism like this about me, instead of addressing it, he would try to act in a way that might prevent it from occurring again in the future?
 

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Sometimes I think he must have problems that he isn't discussing because how on earth could he not have a single issue with me in two years time? I am moody and inconsistent and I'm afraid of commitment and I can't face my future. He's never made any kind of complaint about these flaws.
Agree with Blue Soul. I am an INTp as well and I used to tutor an INFj girl in math. We were pretty close, and she was, as you said, moody and inconsistent but I was never bothered by that, if that is what you are worrying about, OP.
 

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Maybe because I haven't ever known one very well and they aren't how I'm imagining them? I like a lot of things about Te, but I don't find much to admire about Si. I guess since the Te would be dominant I would get along with them better than the ISTp that I knew. I don't think I've ever been friends with an extrovert who wasn't a feeling type though...
Si is focussed on comfort for the person itself and those around them. This means good food, a comfortable home, stability and security.

For someone as detached as an INFP, you'd think that a partner with these qualities would be extremely valuable.
 

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@famousblueraincoat

You can read these descriptions for the female portion of the IEI, and the male portions for LII & ILI.

IEI male and female - Wikisocion
LII male and female - Wikisocion
ILI male and female - Wikisocion

The functions of MBTI use the same names as the Information Elements in Socionics, but there are a bit of differences between the two, and often what is called a function in MBTI is what would be most similar to a function as a dominant function compared to the combination of the Leading and Ignoring functions in Socionics; e.g., MBTI Se is a combination of Leading Si and Ignoring Se in socionics.

The socionics functions (the positions in Model A) show both the Conscious and Unconscious parts of the mind. People are either extroverted or introverted (this is independent of MBTI or Socionics, as it is basic psychology). Extroverts have a conscious focused on the external world and an unconscious focused on the internal world. Introverts have a conscious focused on the internal world and an unconscious focused on the external world. Again, this is independent of system, as this is base psychology. MBTI was developed first as a test, and then had the functions determined from there. Part of the test is the J/P preference. The MBTI model shows the functions based upon the person's J/P preference as their first Extroverted (or external) judging function. For the Introvert, who is consciously internal, this would mean the function stacking is showing the person's stacking for their unconscious. The first unconscious function in Socionics is the Demonstrative Function, and the second is the Ignoring Function. This would mean J=j and P=p, and that the original Socionics and MBTI tests (which are basically the same) are correct, and that the J/P switch is actually in MBTI, not Socionics. Because MBTI is focused on the person's external J/P, knowing little about either system, it would be easier for someone to type someone else by MBTI functions (since you can't see a person's internal world easily). In MBTI, everyone knows that INFP is generally the warm/emotional one between INFP and INFJ. In socionics, Fi has nothing to do with emotions nor emotiveness, and is instead, basically, morality and the psychological relationships between people, and Fe is emotions, emotiveness, and emotional expression. Both INFp and INFj are strong in each, same as the Socionics versions of Ni (predictions/fantasy) and Ne (hidden potential/possibilities), but Fe and Ni are valued by INFp and unvalued by INFj, and Fi and Ne are valued by INFj. I'm good at creative writing but rarely do it (Ni) and am very warm (Fe) but only sporadically with those close to me. This is probably why INFj felt like such a poor fit for you, because you're very socionics Ni, and warm and emotive with basically everyone you meet (that isn't an a-hole at least).

Despite others' opinion that is based upon Dominant being spot #1 in MBTI and Leading being spot #1 in Socionics, I can assure you that if he tests as INTJ on 16personalities.com, then he is an INTj.

So, why wouldn't he seem like an INTj to you? Because, if he is one, then he is your beneficiary, and you probably ignore all the things he talks about that are really important to him, without even realizing it. This is in no way a criticism. This is just what Benefactor/Beneficiary is, and why it is so bad for Beneficiary. You regularly activate his dual-seeking function, like a strong magnet, and he continuously supplies what one of your lacking basic needs are. However, other than that, you both devalue half of the other's valued functions. It just leans more in the Benefactor's favor. And yes, part of this relationship is that both Benefactor and Beneficiary seem oblivious as to who is the REAL one benefiting from it.
 
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