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:: deep breath :: Reading this is bringing me back to my teens. It's funny because I've acted similarly towards people I actually really liked when I was younger, and I'll never know if they felt towards me as you feel towards him. I'll tell you what I think.

We HATE assumptions. Period. Most of the time, we simply CAN'T make them. This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to matters of the heart, although it is also true across the entire spectrum of our experience. It is extremely hard for us to declare a single thing "beyond the shadow of doubt," because we tend to see all sides of an argument and the possibilities therein. We can come up with a million and one reasons why something might NOT be true. (Ti + Ne)

Couple this with a general lack of sufficient "feels" to successfully navigate social or romantic situations, and you essentially end up with a person who is flying blind in matters of the heart, and not only that, we are AWARE we flying blind. We are AWARE we aren't doing very well when it comes to understanding the other person, because (especially when we are younger) we rely on logical causation and clear, articulate communication to come to conclusions; and even THEN we tend to find unexpressed variables in the causational equations of life. Even THEN we can find reasons to "doubt." This is a pretty much universal part of the INTP growth process; doubting everything we possibly can until we are left with a bedrock or foundation of logical premises from which we can then rebuild. Early in life this takes up a LOT of our energy.

What I am saying is; while your appreciation and interest in him might seem obvious to YOU, to him it is NOT. I am sure he has thought about it, perhaps a LOT. He has thought about your actions, he remembers your laugh and your smile, he has watched you interact with other people and maybe tried to figure out if any of your actions are unique to him.

He avoids you most likely because he doesn't want to ASSUME that you want to be around him. He doesn't want to ASSUME you like him, or enjoy his company. I did this many times. In love and emotions, we don't SEE quite so well (at first.) What someone else can point out as "obvious affection," we can quite easily write off. In a way, when he avoids you, he is gauging your reactions, seeing if you will make extra effort to engage him. It really isn't fair and it seems kinda manipulative but it's only because we have so much trouble convincing ourselves that someone is genuinely interested in us; and the thought of assuming you are and then guessing wrong is pretty terrifying, for most of us.

Like I said, he has been watching you. If he notices that you are also warm with other people, and generally talkative, generally smiley, generally whatever-you-are-with-him, he is using those observations to say "Well maybe she doesn't really like me, she's just friendly."

For you, it seems like it would send a really bad signal to be MORE obvious, and why should you? To be honest, being more "aggressive" about it is also likely to just scare us away. More of something we don't understand is tough to really digest.

I know I'm making it sound like "Well there's nothing you can do, we have broken love muscles and that's just the way it is." That's absolutely not true. You will just need to express it in a way that we can understand and be comfortable with.

We need clear communication, and we need to able to be free of expectations as to what we make of it. Essentially this means that you WILL need to tell him how you feel, and it would be best to do it in a manner which gives him the space and "air" to assess his own thoughts and feelings on the matter, without being overwhelmed by yours.

Essentially, you need so say. "Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your company, I am really interested in who you are as a person, I think you're super cute and I'd love to spend more time with you. I was wondering if you maybe felt the same?" Use examples if you want, be more in depth, explain things you really enjoy, all of that is fine. A lot of INTPs NEED that. We need to hear that we are valued for our eccentricities and racy minds and mildly awkward, guarded hearts. Accepting those things is the first step towards growing into them, or past them.

Express yourself, make it your own, from your heart. What you want to avoid, though? Expectations.

Avoid:

A) "I don't understand how you couldn't tell." / "I'm hurt and confused by your signals" / "I just wish you would open up."
B) "I'm really scared of how you might react." / "I'm going to freak out if you're not interested."
C) "Are you gay or something? Because that's okay."

Also, avoid any "games." It won't work. Hitting on some other guy, playing hard to get, being "mean" as a test; we have next to no patience for those things. Be genuine, forthright, and yourself. We might not be very well versed in matters of the heart, but for some reason we can smell fabrications from a mile away.

Case in point; I despised cheerleaders. The outfits, the chipper nods, the fake smiles, the makeup... all of it. I always wanted to yell "YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING! WTF ARE YOU DOING?!"

Make it clear, but give him an easy out. You don't want him to feel pressured by your emotions. Tell him how you feel and let him know that if he doesn't feel the same that's totally okay. You're going to have to make it easy for him to express what he really feels, and in order for him to do that, he kinda does have to feel like it doesn't affect you, or that it won't hurt you. He can't feel pressured.

Thirdly, if you want to strike up some cool conversations with him, instead of asking him how he "feels" about things (we generally get sorta "stumped" at those sorts of questions early on, internally we tend to be kinda like "it is what it is.") ask him what he THINKS about things. When we are young we tend to express our feelings in thought. We don't see them as feelings, at times. If you ask him what he THOUGHT about his sister moving, he might give you a better answer or more conversation. Even better, ask him what he thinks about something he's a bit more passionate about. Delve into deep stuff like the meaning of life, the future of humanity, why people do what they do, etc etc and you might he has more thoughts AND feelings than you imagine. If you can get him rolling about something he has a lot of thought tied up in, you'll definitely also get glimpses of his emotional self shining through, so long as he feels you are comfortable receiving it.

I know a lot of INTPs that all of a sudden feel much more affectionate towards someone just because they are having an in-depth abstract conversation. It's something very personal for us. More "day to day" stuff like who is moving, what celebrity did what, who doesn't like who, the weather, etc... You'll find us pretty dry. It's our thoughts on the big, abstract questions in life that pretty much define us. When we are expressing those things, it's like we are expressing our deepest selves. When you feel like you can connect with someone whilst expressing your deepest self, you feel very close, loving, and affectionate with that person. When someone values us for those things... well... we tend to fall in love. hahaha

And through all of this; don't lose track of yourself. Don't bend over backwards for this fellow. Don't make yourself into something you're not just to please him. Strive to understand him, but not to change yourself for his comfort. You're already perfect.

Hope all this helps, it's pretty much a giant rant.
Yes. This. All of this. I am not alone!

Or am i?
 

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My fiance is INTP, and it's really awesome. I like being around him and practically watching "the wheels turn" as he thinks about things. He has always had a different perspective of the world than most people you see every day. And it certainly helps that he's charming in a silly way and has an amazing sense of humor.

There are times where I can tell he doesn't quite get the emotional side of things quite as readily as I do, and that's something I can definitely see as a growing point for me. I've still been working out the concept of realizing other people don't see into people the same way that I tend to. That being said, he's been instrumental to me being more straightforward and honest in how I feel and how I see the world. No passive aggressive behavior... (which I grew up with in a household of an ENFP(really ENTP)/INTJ combo)... and he really just values closeness. Whether it's sexual or not (damn good when it is), just being close is enough for us to be happy.

He's an inspiration to me, and he lights up my days.
 

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Okay, I’m resurrecting this thread, and asking for you guys to help me out here with my struggles with my long time INTP friend.

We’ve been on/ off friends since our 20s (now in our 40s). We used to live in the same state, worked together for a few years, became close. I ended up moving back to my home state, we went our separate ways, but stayed in touch.

The past year or so we’ve been communicating a lot more; saw each other a couple of times. My friend has really struggled over the years. Developed substance abuse issues, lots of relationship problems/ bad break ups. But it seems like when he’s in the mood for contact and communication, everything is going great. But then when he’s not, he turns icy and cold. Doesn’t respond to my text messages, days (or a week) goes by before I get a response. A few times didn’t respond to me at all. I asked him about this, and he got a little defensive, pointed out the *one* time I didn’t respond to him. Has told me before *he* hates the no response, and waiting for a response?? Was sort of dickish, said he’s just not that invested in people right now, and just not the type to be available to others at all times. Which is funny, because I have a life too, and make myself available to him because I love him, and if I love someone, I make time. What good is telling someone how much you love them, if through your actions, you’re acting like an a**hole, you know?

I’ve talked to him about this before, he admits he does this. Those push- pull behaviors. If anyone is familiar with attachment theory, I believe he’s dismissive avoidant. Pushes people away, but then when he’s lonely (he gets bouts of crippling loneliness) and wants contact, I hear from him, and happy to be there for him and to be supportive. I do understand his past traumas and need to be alone. I just don’t understand the cold/ meanness masqueraded as “truth” and “logic”. I also don’t get the texting thing. If I didn’t respond to someone, I would expect them to get sick of that and not keep reaching out to me. Yet he wants me to keep texting him, and be more understanding if I randomly don’t hear back? Wtf is that? I posted this in the INTP section about the texting, and didn’t really get an answer yet if that’s some sort of behavior that’s common? I really don’t know what to do, I’m so hurt by his behavior, and at this point I’m just leaving him alone, but I’m wondering if at this point I should do the slow fade. He says no, he doesn’t want that, but his behavior is telling me otherwise. I’m wondering if all of the years of substance abuse really just did a number on him, and maybe he honestly doesn’t give a s**t about me the way I do about him at this point. Maybe he’s not capable?
 

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Okay, I’m resurrecting this thread, and asking for you guys to help me out here with my struggles with my long time INTP friend.
This sounds kinda like it's own thread so maybe start another one, I'd be glad to reply, but I'll put some of my thoughts here...

The short answer as it applies to this thread is that some of the behavior is common to INTPs but a lot of it is more a function of emotional maturity / psychological health.

I think you are accurate that the truth / logic is just a masquerade; but just look through that and into behavior and emotions. Judgers in my experience tend to be more grounded than INTPs in the sense of action in the physical world, and because of that relationships are likely easier. Because INTPs don't get as much experience in relationships, they don't know things like proper behaviors to do... Also there may be a lack of emotional intelligence and not knowing how, or an interest in how the cold / meanness affects others.

At the same time recognize your own Judger tendencies. You have rules. You have standards. You are saying, "if I love someone then I make time," that is a rule. INTPs flaunt rules and dislike having them imposed upon them with a passion. More importantly than you have a rule is that your standard for yourself is also what you are expecting the rest of the world to fulfill.

Now I'm not saying it's an unreasonable standard :) Actually it's perfectly fine from my vista as an INTP. However part of the reason you might be so upset is that you have this idea of how the world is supposed to go, and when it's not going that way you think something is "wrong." Right and wrong, black and white, is the domain of judgers.

I think you need to do two things. One is get clear inside of yourself and release the fact that he has broken your standards and refuses to live by them. Basically just let it go, realize the relationship -might- be over and "go with the flow" a little more, as hard as that might be :) Two is to talk with him when he's in a good state of mind. Just be logical and direct, and bring a ridiculous amount of patience because it doesn't sound like he's in the maturity level always to be kind to you.

The way to go about the discussion is just step by step. Here is a script that might work. Hey, I want to talk to you about something... you know, I really want for us to remain friends [intention] and the truth is that I feel like if we're not talking regularly, that we will grow apart from each other and stop communicating [action and consequence]. I don't want that [intention], but from what I can tell it seems like you are not talking to me as much and I think that might be just because you'd like to end the connection we've had together. So I wanted to find out from you, would you like to keep remaining close friends, or do you feel like we should probably move to being something closer to an acquaintance these days? Friendly, but not really close? [Direct question, forcing a response one way or the other]

If he says yes... then you go on to describe what needs to happen to ensure that you are friends... well here is what I need in a friend... And then don't compromise on what you need. Just say, this is it. I'd like this, but at the very minimum I'll settle for this. If he says no... then you say well just wanted to let you know it's been nice, and wishing you all the best... and you go on your way. If he says not sure / maybe / don't know or any variant, then you lean toward no and say, well look in my life I really want only people who know they want to be in communication and friends with me. I'd really like you to be in that category since we've known each other for so long, and I'm a little scared of what it might be like not having you as a friend, but this is really important to me. But I know right now you might not want that. My rules for friends is that if we love each other then we stay in communication. Is that something you're at least willing to entertain?

Don't get hurt by it, just know what's important to you and keep pressing for it. Without nagging, without insinuating, just direct... here's what I need, here are the options and the choices, which one would you like to choose? Get a commitment and go from there. I wouldn't do it as a slow fade. I'd do it directly. But perhaps that's me speaking as a guy ;) I hope that helps!
 

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@Integrator - thank you so much, that was very helpful. I’ve been spending some time reading about INTPs in an unhealthy state (he’s also a 5w4 enneagram, I believe), and that’s helped. We talked about this on Sunday, and he said absolutely not about him wanting me to do the slow fade, and that he would try harder with responding (I really don’t get that double standard :), and based on other issues stuff we’ve had in the past, I think he probably will. I just think he’s not well, and trying to get better, but when he randomly falls into his states of isolation, it’s hard not to take it personally? I do think he loves me, whatever they say about the INTP-INFJ connection being the “golden pair” I think is true, I have so much love for him too, which is why it’s so hard to take when he acts like a dick. :/
 

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@R22

I have an INTP friend which my BFF for 10 years and I can say sometimes he does these push-pull behavior when he is angry with me for some reason (logical reason). When he is angry with me, he doesn't respond to my messages or lies when I share something that I want him to check by stating "I will look into it when I get home" which his common lie, I see him chatting with people on facebook but he needs to check it when he is at home, huh? wow. But when he is in the mood he can stop chatting with all of these people and focus only on me therefore respond very quickly. Why he is angry with me is always logical like, he gets angry when I don't respond to his message. When I don't respond he thinks I'm distancing myself from him but the truth is there is nothing to state about it. He is actually very paranoid and pessimistic therefore I have to persuade him with my honest opinion otherwise he will realize I don't make sense and recall my sins like I'm being a hypocrite but in fact I'm not. I always apologize if I really made a mistake and encourage him to be honest with me when I did something that I shouldn't but he always prefers to get angry to me by being silent and only blow out when he can't take it anymore. He actually has a shitty life therefore I understand why he prefers to be silent sometimes and why he blames me like I don't care him but we are not kids anymore therefore we can't communicate with each other often as we used to. I think he just doesn't like the way our relationship turned into and he wants his old relationship back, the old me but unfortunately it won't happen. My friend is not someone who prefers to express negative emotions (when he is really upset he just prefers to bottle up all his feelings until he can't keep it in anymore) and he is not always aware how he feels but one thing he is sure is: I have a special place in his life but he doesn't like our relationship — it's a big dilemma he couldn't get out from for years.

My friend usually fakes a happy mood and can be social even though he feels shitty. He indeed sometimes doesn't realize how shitty he feels but if he can realize how shitty he feels, then you can say he suffers greatly therefore he goes to hermit mode but sometimes he doesn't want to lose touch with people even though he is suffering therefore he can become very awkward. Perhaps your friend does the same.

Also, I want you to know that, my friend doesn't handle well in stressful situations but he won't leave you just because you are being stressful because he really loves people very deeply. It seems like your friend is already stressed, wants to keep in touch with you and you are being a stress source to him therefore if he is similar to my friend then he will distance himself from you. Don't be a stress source. When my friend doesn't respond to my message, I just send him something he would really respond then he responds in no time then for some reason he makes me feel like we had a fight but it's cool now. Maybe we are fighting but only in his head, I'm not sure.

By the way, I couldn't understand what kind of relationship you have with your friend because you claim you are female, and your friend is a male, you know. Maybe he loves you more than a friend and want to form a romantic relationship with you but can't state it (like my friend) or couldn't state it when you were close therefore stayed as a just friend. If so this kind of relationship maybe tearing him apart.

Lastly, I'm not old but I had witnessed so many shitty relationships. One thing that is common in all shitty relationship is; people that are involved in a relationship can't see their fault therefore blame others because they don't want to compromise. You act like he is not worthy to be your friend but ask yourself if you are really worthy to be his friend. I didn't intend to make a point or something by it, I just wrote it literally. I can't judge your relationship with him by only learning your point of view because people usually blame others and those who blame others always acts like they are right.

Edit: If he is really a 5w4 then just let him do what he wants and don't make him feel like he has to obey you. If you become pushy and unrespectable to personality preferences then he will distance himself from you like how you deserved probably according to him. If he is like me then he will just prefer to enjoy his serenity over an unnecessary relationship that he can't let go just because of the feelings that are involved.
 
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@shadowbroker - great insights, that gives me a lot to think about. I do see some similarities with my friend, as you stated with yours.

I generally tend to blame myself for things going wrong in relationships, beat myself up a lot, thinking things are probably my fault, maybe tend to go overboard with that, perhaps over- empathize at my own expense, which is how I’ve stayed in “bad” relationships before (whatever the nature- not that this is “bad”, maybe just going through some bumps right now) in the past, but I will examine my part in this for sure.

The part about leaving him be when he needs to be alone hits home. I don’t think I’ve been terrible about that, just the random no response thing from his end is puzzling, when he wants responses when he wants them? It’s confusing and it upsets me. Also the personality changes with the substance abuse, he can be really harsh/ brutally so even? But we’ve talked about it, and it’s been better. But yeah, I do see what you mean, about differences...

Thank you!
 

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I don't think this is a good match for romantic relationships at all. INTPs are far too dispassionate for me, as well as overly focused on being "neutral" and robot-like. This part about focusing on being "neutral", "reasonable" and uncommitted kills me. There are few things that I hate more than uncommittment (especially uncommittment with ideals).

Ofc I'm saying this as an E4. Relationships with me easily turn into stormy shit. INFJs who fall as E9s or E5s might feel differently and love INTPs, who are mostly E9s and E5s too anyway.
 

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The first post looks like: “ways in which an INFJ enhances an INTP’s life”. The INFJ is relegated to a subordinate role in your entire post. For example, look who has to make all the work in the relationship:

...which is what the INTP brings to the INFJ, will often cause the INFJ to view things in a new, more precise perspective, causing much personal growth.
INFJ can understand the theories the INTP is communicating and contribute to the conversation, even helping modify and produce new explanations
Later in the relationship, after the INFJ has learned the habits of the INTP, this quality is very beneficial, as the INFJ can "call out" the INTP on things
So while the INFJ does work to understand and make the relationship improve, improving along the way, what does the INTP do? Well, not much, as it’s mostly a matter of being inspired by the INFJ’s attitude:

INFJs, if anything, are INSPIRING to an INTP,
The INTP’s concept is described as some sort of intellectual hero, “the most truthful of all types”. And of course, one of the “potential pitfalls” is described as the INFJ’s tendency to search for further meaning behind events - which is, you guessed it, the main trait of Introverted Intuition, the INFJ’s dominant function. Essentially if the INFJ is himself too much it’s bad for the relationship, while the INTP’s dominant function, Ti, is mostly what the entire relationship should work around according to your posts.

There’s also the stereotype according to which INFJs reason only in psychological/ethical terms, and think that someone speaking about some abstract theory always means “expressing your emotions”.

Basically the relationship described here is that of an INFJ repressing his functions for an INTP’s sake, while he uses the INFJ as a decoration for whatever he likes doing. I don’t see commitment towards the couple, it looks mostly self-centered.
 

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I'm in a relationship with an INTP, so I can give a couple of thoughts:
Why the INTP I'm with fell for me:
He became attracted to me, at first, because I indicated interest in learning Javascript and nerdy pursuits.
We became friends and talked a great deal about all manner of things.
He fell in love with me, because I was one of the few people he really felt comfortable talking to about things he would think about, and all the things that would interest him.
He never seems to tire of my company.
He also talks on how clever he finds me :)

Why I fell for my INTP:
Because even before we were dating, I could see how easy he is to talk to.
Because he has a wonderful attitude towards life, and shares my values.
Because he's always been honest, but also very kind.
At the end of the day, he's the kind of person I can really respect, and when it comes to relationships, me being able to respect someone is crucial.
He's also the most intelligent person I know, personally.

Also despite the stereotypes, he expresses a great deal of warmth and affection towards me, and has been very kind. I mean, in general,he often says that he doesn't feel most of his emotions very strongly, but some he does feel strongly, such as his feelings towards me and his frustrations with dealing with immigration again so that we can be married and get to live together.
 
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I want to be respectful to all the people who are having great INFJ-INTP relationships here. I don't think they are invalid experiences and I'm glad this particular dynamics can work for some people.

Now I want to list why I DON'T think this is a good match. At least, not for me (taking into account my personal values).

1 - First off, INTPs have inferior Fe. This means they suck at Fe, and I'll have to make all the emotional labor for them in the relationship. They are completely oblivious when it comes to the subtleties involving emotions, which is annoying to me and a waste of time (I hate when I have to repetitively explain to others why they are being insensitive and/or inappropriate). This would be different with ENTPs, because they have tertiary Fe and are better with interpersonal skills.

2 - INTPs have the annoying tendency to focus on Si details, whereas (when discussing certain topics) I just want to move on to the crucial point with Ni. I find this Ti-Si focus on consistency annoying, redundant, robotic and useless for the most part.

3 - Boring communication. Maybe this comes down again to having inferior Fe, but all the INTPs I've met IRL have been extremely boring to me in conversations. I have no idea how I'd be in a relationship with someone who I couldn't have exciting, spontaneous conversations with. I think I'd rather off myself than have a relationship with a human who is trying their hardest to behave like a robot.
 

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I want to be respectful to all the people who are having great INFJ-INTP relationships here. I don't think they are invalid experiences and I'm glad this particular dynamics can work for some people.

Now I want to list why I DON'T think this is a good match. At least, not for me (taking into account my personal values).

1 - First off, INTPs have inferior Fe. This means they suck at Fe, and I'll have to make all the emotional labor for them in the relationship. They are completely oblivious when it comes to the subtleties involving emotions, which is annoying to me and a waste of time (I hate when I have to repetitively explain to others why they are being insensitive and/or inappropriate). This would be different with ENTPs, because they have tertiary Fe and are better with interpersonal skills.

2 - INTPs have the annoying tendency to focus on Si details, whereas (when discussing certain topics) I just want to move on to the crucial point with Ni. I find this Ti-Si focus on consistency annoying, redundant, robotic and useless for the most part.

3 - Boring communication. Maybe this comes down again to having inferior Fe, but all the INTPs I've met IRL have been extremely boring to me in conversations. I have no idea how I'd be in a relationship with someone who I couldn't have exciting, spontaneous conversations with. I think I'd rather off myself than have a relationship with a human who is trying their hardest to behave like a robot.
Very good points you make, and they're all true. I don't feel disrespected at all. You did accurately hit on the potential flaws of the INFJ/INTP dynamic. I shall, now offer a different perspective based on my personal experience:

1. Yes, inferior Fe can be a challenge to deal with. I listened to Psychological Types on Youtube, and, Jung's discussion of introverted thinking went into detail about the introverted thinker's blindspot when it comes to being aware of the feelings of others. I have seen how this can be greatly improved with effort and experience. My INTP made a conscious effort to learn about the feelings of others, particularly how the feelings of men and women are different, and I believe his research over the years paid off a great deal. I actually find the level of detachment from a situation he's capable of achieving a source of comfort. It's great to know that he can detach enough from something that makes me emotional to be levelheaded with it. Of course, he empathizes a lot with my feelings, and if he sees I'm agitated, he won't be quick to rush in with an analytical solution, but takes time to listen and sympathise with me first, even though, he's not good at uses words to sympathise, but he is an excellent hugger.

2.Ah the Si details. I find this actually advantageous in our relationship. I think it's great that my love can pick up on little details, so that I don't have to!!! He never gets nitpicky or critical when it comes to my inability to pay attention to details like an SJ might. The only thing he ever criticizes me for is for often looking away from the screen when we're watching something, but he'll often bring it up in a joke. We complement each other in this sense though, because while he's better at the details, I'm better at imagining things, and am more creative, so we can delegate mental tasks to each other.

3. Ah this one will vary from person to person likely. It depends on your personal interests. I enjoy programming, and I like math and science, but my INTP doesn't just like math, science and the super nerdy topics but, we also both enjoy sci-fi TV shows, British comedy/comedians, video games, Marvel (up to endgame), music and composition, and history. He ends up having a unique perspective on a lot of the topics I enjoy as well. I think, it can occasionally be boring when he's tired and has little to say, but I generally fill in the gaps then, as once I get thinking on a topic, I have plenty to say on it, and he doesn't mind listening.

I mean, it could be different with him than with the typical INTP, because he shares the same values that I do, and because he made an effort to be more likable to others. If he does act like a robot, I imagine, he sometimes acts like Data from star trek TNG.
 
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