most of this doesent sound like INTP at all. pretty much the only thing that i can even remotely see as being typical for INTPs is the need for knowing whether it is a relationship or are we just dating.. oh yea and i might pick up a book from your bookshelf if i find it interesting or something like that, but you can be sure that your book wont be handled with dirty hands and will be placed back exactly where it belongs. i think these guys you are talking about werent INTPs@addd:
I've dated two INTPs, and I also find the relationship untenable, though for other reasons. Here's my perspective from the other side:
The biggest reason, for me, was the INTP complete lack of respect for emotional and physical boundaries, and continuous boundary violations. I'm a good communicator, and even after numerous discussions about the issue, and how important and necessary my boundaries are, it kept happening with both INTPs I dated. One was not well-developed (bipolar personality), so perhaps that was understandable, but even the well-developed INTP I dated displayed the same behavior.
This includes: (1) showing up at my house uninvited; (1a) showing up at my work place univited and trying to get through building security, or "surprising" me (I HATE surprises); (2) going through or touching my things (for an INTP, this is not "snooping" it's just a misapprehension of the fact that my belongings are personal and private, and you shouldn't rummage through them without asking or without permission - for example, one INTP I dated asked me, even though my phone was right next to me, if I wanted him to look at it and tell me who had texted me. Um, no. None of your business. I will answer MY phone on my own time); (3) getting in touch with my ex boyfriend, without my knowledge or permission. Actually BOTH INTPs I dated did this. How is this appropriate, ever? (4) Boundary violations with my friends (adding them on Facebook, etc.) - no, they're not your friends, they're MY friends. After knowing them for 5 or 10 minutes, or even one night, friending is inappropriate. I feel like you're further trying to insert your tentacles into my life and make yourselves "stick" somehow - remember, I still haven't made up my mind about you and I probably won't for several months or longer. INFJs like to be friends first and see how things go in order to totally trust you. We can be having sex with you and still not consider it a relationship that is serious enough to risk (trust, again) fully incorporating you into our lives. This is a big deal for us and a huge risk and will only be done after much consideration; (5) talking about me or introducing me to your family before I'm ready - don't make the relationship something it isn't at an early stage. Isn't it possible for things to unfold organically? (6) Being clingy and needy; (7) "Checking in" on me on nights when we're not hanging out. It feels like you're checking up on me or distrust me. Can't we have some apart time too? (8) Debating just for the sake of fighting. Why? (this is minor in comparison to everything else, but it feels disrespectful); (9) inviting yourself to events that I'm going to, showing up uninvited, or assuming that I'm going to invite you. I really, really need my space, and if I haven't invited you, there's a reason - it means that I am going to hang out with other friends who feel an emotional need or outlet that you can't fill or that I'm not ready for you to fill yet; (10) overthinking everything. Why can't you guys just let go and be authentic? Life is not a game, and you don't always need a strategy. We want to know the real YOU. But the INTP is always in processing mode.
Small aside: I remember dating one INTP, and we had an argument in a public place. He raised his voice, and I told him about three times in a very calm voice that if he continued to yell at me, I was going to walk away and leave. He did, so I turned on my heel and walked home. He couldn't BELIEVE that I would disengage like that. I got several enraged messaged on my answering machine; he was just so stunned I would doorslam him, even though I warned him several times. Really? WTF?
Of course, for the INTP, the INFJ boundaries seem insane, and the INTP cannot understand them. So in their mind, we're secretive and withholding, and in our mind, they're violative and controlling. In fact, even reading my own words, I can see how the INTP would experience the INFJ as neurotic, secretive, and establishing numerous walls. The INFJ experiences the INTP as intrusive, smothering, manipulative and controlling.
Another issue I've had with INTPs is that they claim to know themselves very, very well. But you can't fool an INFJ. Both INTPs I dated would either (1) outright lie to me about their feelings; or (2) have such internal dissonance about their feelings that they didn't know what they were feeling. Both of these are terrifying to an INFJ. The INTP propensity to fake emotions is extremely chilling. It really freaks me out.
I found my INTPs externally very warm but internally cold, and perceived/experienced them both as manipulative. (NB: I'm not saying they were manipulative, but that I found it impossible to perceive them any other way). I always got the sense with both INTPs that they were faking it, putting on a public persona, which I found very hard to respect. I got the sense that they were used to putting on a facade for people and getting away with it, because they believe they are smarter than other people, but with me I always saw the internal coldness, and the mask, and it always became a real turn off.
Both INTPs wanted to own me. Despite the "open-ended" "P" function, they wanted to pin down the relationship right away, label and sort it, and make me their girlfriend. Usually, my thought would be that "J"s are more interested in such closure and definition, but it was the opposite with INTPs, and felt strangling. Here I am, months into a relationship and still making up my mind, and then forced to have weekly conversations on the "status" of our relationship and whether or not we're boyfriend/girlfriend yet. Why?
INTPs can be even more arrogant than INFJs. They will tell you that they are wonderful, smart, etc. INFJs, used to locating within themselves everything that is faulty and "wrong", are more humble and can't stand these declarations. They feel artificial and controlling. INTPs I've dated have told me how they're wonderful, great catches, extremely intelligent, etc. The INFJ, distrusting surfaces, thinks: "if you have to tell me this, it's definitely not true." At this point, suspicion kicks in and we start actively scrutinizing for faults.
addd accuses us of having "trophies" and "trophy causes", but, depending on the INTP, the INFJ doesn't perceive the INTP as having even a surface interest in social justice or helping people, and doesn't respect that. Respect will always be an issue between these two types. INTPs tend to be natural capitalists and entrepreneurs and, in some cases, the INFJ will see their work as reductive or instrumentalizing of other people. It seemed like both INTPs I dated were always hatching some scheme or another. INFJs, who are there for the cause, just see the scheme and are kind of grossed out. We can admire their ambition but distrust the personality bend that drives it.
Going along with the arrogance factor, both INTPs I dated liked to show off their smarts, but always seemed genuinely surprised when I said something intelligent or showed that I was as smart as they were. Way to alienate a lady, guys. INTJs, INFJs and ENFPs I've dated were genuinely respectful and appreciative of my intelligence. INTJs can be arrogant about their own intelligence, but they're usually super open minded debaters, and less alienating in how they present information.
Sigh, that's enough. This sounds angrier than it is. Neither INTP was a bad person, but the incompatibilities were pretty fundamental.
most thorough rundown of infj - intp relationships out there. Trust me, I have searched. Anyone who has something else to say, please write your own experience. Lets build a wealth of information.
INTPs. Run. She's posing as a houseplant. INFJ=siren to INTP
Seriously INTP brothers, I have had multiple intense relationships with different age/ and background INFJ's and inspite of the age gap/ different backgrounds , the very same basic problems always cause the demise.
INTPs are immediately attracted to the intelligence, the challenge to break down barriers of dishonesty, and the mystery of the INFJ. At first glance they will have a seemingly similar philosophy and intellectualism that will draw you in. The INFJ, likewise, will be attracted by your honesty and logic.... at first. They, always feeling alone and strange in the world will be relieved to have found someone just as odd, alien and intelligent.
It all goes sour after awhile because the core parts of both are absolutely missing in each other, and both misrepresent themselves, despite the intentions.
The INTP immediately is drawn to the responsibility in the J, and assumes that brings the same logical backbone. It doesn't. The Infj is immediately attracted to the honesty, and assumes they can tolerate the philosophical debates. They cannot.
See. It's simple. INFJs are perfect on the surface, and they will do anything to keep that appearance, including even if they feel necessary : lying, cheating, manipulating, withholding and "doorslamming." They would rather not do these things, but are rather Machiavellian when push comes to shove. They never ever fully open up to anyone else, are masters of keeping people at arms length, finding scapegoats, and avoiding the unpleasant like an ostrich with its head in the sand.
INTPS live for truth, no matter how ugly, and will stop at nothing to see its day in the sun. We always seek more knowledge, and leave the book open, simply adding new information without judgement (we see that as premature.)
INFJ's live for nobility (which they see as a function of their physical labor, and social esteem.) They are deeply offended by any critical opinion of their behavior, as they do NOT delay judgment, and count every action into their ongoing judgement. If you did great things for 30 years, and spent the last year being an asshole and died, sorry. In their books you would be written off. They are very immediate based, always wondering "what will serve my goals best here and now," and see the present as time to be spent achieving their goals, which are NOT the goals of an INTP.
Their real goals ( albeit to their ALL distant friends they prefer to appear charitable, pious, and intelligent) are simply to gather trophies;
Degrees, certs, paychecks, public recognition, vegan, marathons, volunteer work, dinner parties. Their id function is to be admired by others. In the end, they will do anything to uphold this supreme virtue, even discard everyone who knows them well enough to know their flaws and hypocrisy, no matter "love." For this reason many INFJs will speak of "chosen family"
The INTP senses this tepidity at first. But he writes it off, as you probably will this, being a real scientist and not wanting to be biased.
But heed my warning of the Siren.
The end is the opposite of the beginning, and it comes with no warning, recourse, or comfort. The INFJ will not put their heart into the conversations designed to repair, nor will they include you WHATSOEVER in their thinking process of ending it. They will play along, extracting themselves the same way they dole it out in the beginning, make a plan, and start moving on while still together, without telling you. They are weaning themselves, sneaky at it all, for by the time the break up comes you will find they are surprisingly cool, and you will be amazingly shocked.
All those prebreakup conversations you had, filled with soul searching and promises will ring in your ears, but they will not listen. INFJs are FAMOUS for doing this, and then RUNNING away.
Meaning they will tell you not to even contact them ( "need space"), when you are devastated and recoiling for answers.
Best advice, don't look for them. Truth is, if you are being dumped by an INFJ
THEY ALREADY DECIDED TO DUMP YOU WEEKS AGO,
and have purposely strung you along long enough to gather their strength (friend advice), and plan/ start a new life.
Usually the INTP gets dumped instead of dumping due to the fact that he keeps everything open ended, so even though he will see the problems (but be unable to deal with all the obvious INFJ ostrich lies, and with their inability to rationally and calmly examine anything controversial), you will not dump the INFJ. You can see the potential for change forever. You keep researching and trying to change yourself, sure that you can superhero like fix it.
The INFJ is not so.
Everything is judged immediately, privately, and not based on any higher principle such as truth...
it is based on =f(what will achieve my goal to be admired) always.
always. They will even lie to themselves, discard their whole family, spend their whole lives alone, anything, EVERYTHING.... They constantly judge, and feel judged and the second you try to help them IT IS ALL OVER. trust that.
(same for if you decide to just let them help you. you have not outsmarted fate. instead, you will become a pet project, and like everything in their lives, and without doubt, you will not match up to their cold perfectionism and myopic standards. Furthermore, if the project is in anyway at all personally attached to a trophy or in their sanctum of no mans land , they will secretively lose respect for you, for causing them discomfort and for having asked for help, as they ask NOONE for help, and think you must be less than them for doing so.)
Run. Run. Run. The first month will be heaven. Go ahead. Have it, but whatever you do... DO NOT LET THEM DUMP YOU. It will take twice as long to get over, as you will be left figuring out what the hell happened, by yourself, and they will be too busy trying to forget you (no matter how close you were) to care to reveal anything about it, or themselves to you EVER AGAIN.
It's all old news to them, as they dumped you 2 weeks ago, privately (some even have secret ceremonials involving rocks, oceans, or fire.)
Oh and thinking you'll win them back in true Hollywood form? Ha! NO CHANCE!
Truth is, they all think any attempts to earn them back are PATHETIC.
Remember, what do they covet?
The covet esteem, and anyone who would seek their advice or beg them is immediately cast aside as inferior. Because they are judgement perfectionists, who are caught up on public opinion, they will never see the valor in repentance, or the Disney charm in make ups. They see grovelling, and they will, at best, enjoy the stroke to the ego and continue doorslam, as that is now the obvious choice of the nobel. They will never admit to wrongs or feel culpable, so don't even bother. Every minute spent entreating otherwise is a damned waste, and shame to the shreds of dignity left.
If they were capable of the kind of honest introspection, required by true (public) repentance or forgiveness, you wouldn't be this lamentable fate in the first place.
Just as the INTP feels the sigh of relief and gratitude when the relationship is deep enough to finally be/ discuss/ confess/ debate the personal details ( glory days for the INTP) in truth, your INFJ is HATING LIFE.
yes, when our favorite part begins is when their least favorite part begins. INFJs have good ideas in the abstract because they ARE ARTISTS of the generic and the abstract, practicing a lifetime of saying just the thing to gain as many admirers as possible. They have been living up to a facade, so well, for so long that they rarely even know themselves, or even when they are lying anymore.
INTPs feel issues are solved by delving in, investigating, discussing, researching, understanding, and the humility and courage (honorable) to change and adapt.
INFJs feel issues are solved independently, privately, by weighing sums and averages, stealthy disengaging, redirecting, further defining (never redefining), abandoning, and redirecting. Which is pretty disgusting to any real blooded INTP.
If you weren't an INTP whos covets TRUTH above all else, you could keep any INFJ will these secrets.
Simply start dating as normal.
Get past infj "onion" layers, walls, annoying doling out of appearances by remaining patient and aloof.
Watch verbal com at first. They will judge you by the ratio of effort put into contact you/them. If you start off very unequal, it will NEVER be changed. If you put in less than them, they will never open up. Always put in just slightly more effort into communication.
Find out what they like. This will be obvious, as they feel it defines them and will brag about it. This is the key.
The infj will not respect you if you ask questions about their hobbies/ ideas. The mentor/ teacher role is one-dimensional with them. They will also not respect you (after an initial curiosity) if you debate their "trophies" with them. No matter how right you are, they will simply grow to dismiss you if you challenge any of their trophies. They will not understand, and will just think you are an asshole.
Their favorite trophies of all time are those that require extreme self denial, self discipline, intellectualism, piety, and charity. This means their degree, their job, their house, their friends, their public charity projects. Even if you find out that their alma mater is abducting and slaughtering East African babies, and you think since they (have the same good heart as you , lol) seem to care about people (since they are so very sensitive) .....that they would prefer you told them about the babies... they DONT. DO NOT TELL THEM.
The only way to tell an INFJ ANYTHING new and personal is to provide a link, or a respected article with NO OPINION of YOUR OWN IMPLIED, somewhere they will STUMBLE across it. Then never mention it, and pray they read it. If they did read it, and it changed their views AT ALL, they will be completely embarrassed and do a little extra research in secret. They will try to find more popular opinion, sources, and will ask one of the older esteemed and respected, and trusted in their circle. If this doesn't give them the comfort of agreement (what they really seek), they will finally consider changing their opinion.
Before they can do that, they invariably will seek and locate a plausible skapegoat, in order to maintain the perfection image, it is necessary. Being so judgmental in every moment, they cannot make mistakes, no matter how temporal without feeling like bad-inferior people. This is the root of their evil. All soul searching, personal growth, real insight is sacrificed to the identity they build around superiority/inferiority in social constructs, and perfection/ external validation requisites.
Ignore my advice, INTP, and a million times over you will wish to God or whathaveyou, that your INFJ could for once, put their petty pride aside just long enough to reap even a little benefit of truth. Indeed, they will trust you more than anyone oneelse (for the moment), but they will never fully trust you, never fully let you in, never fully break down/ confess/ lament/ confide. They will never know the sweet communion an INTP feels in his soul, when he can finally be completely transparent. Their sad fate is due to the fact that they feel they have to, day by day, earn their worth... Like they wake up worthless, and only with enough trophies by the end of the day, they will feel worthwhile. An INTP knows the false logic and foolishness inherent upon laying our identity in the hands and opinion of men and their earthy treasures. An INTP wakes up feeling the opposite, like he already is gold inside, destined for greatness with a little elbow grease and spit shine. The INTP is actually IMPRESSED when other people are downright self defacingly honest and humble. He admires the bravery and honesty. He thinks its what makes us connected as humans. The Infj never understands or appreciates this concept, whatsoever.
Back to the advice for dating: So instead of asking about the trophies, or trying to have philosophical discussions, do this instead:
1. find trophies
2. become a fellow fan/ expert in/ participant (PUBLIC) in trophies ex: veganism, rock climbing, movie, charity.... whatever
IN reality, the INFJ is interested in you because you are so gut wrenchingly honest that they see you as the least threatening person to open up to. They are masters at controlling relationships and manipulating behind the scenes, and while they admire your sense of "honor" (NOT integrity), they most appreciate you because they know they can keep one step ahead of you. Everyone else plays the same games they do, and that is why they keep all of them at arms bay. You will feel delighted and special, being one of the few, if any to be "allowed in." Don't get carried away into thinking you are both on the same page. The INFJ doesn't think you are, trust me. You will notice this time keeper, date counter, gate keeper presence constantly lingering around the edges of the INFJ no matter how deep you get. You will think you can coax him out of his shell into the promised land of enough self esteem to be honest.
WRONG. This is the beginning of the end. Attempts to cross the final mile will be met with severe recoil. Your first tears will now be shed. You will gently encourage, and be surprised by the backlash it causes. The INFJ will blame it on your insensitivity (rather than their unwillingness to deal with painful truths), and being it in the beginning, you will be blindsided and coax and soothe, in a dumbfounded attempt to repair the damage. Too late. INFJs never forget or forgive. They keep a running till and just keep adding. You can never make points up. The next time one of these topics rears its head, they will be slightly more withdrawn, and you will misunderstand that to mean they are actually LIstening!!!
They are not listening. Only withdrawing. But they won't tell you that, so you will keep on talking like a good old Fact Finder INTP, foolishly celebrating what is actually a departure. This will continue to snowball until you address it.
Here is where most people break up, or fix the problem... but NOT the infj and intp combo!!! no, we have our own special breed of hell waiting for two. See, the INTP and the INFP only really have THEORY, and SERVICE in common. INTPs like to come up with the theory, revise it, revise it, revise it and move on to something totally different without even caring if the theories practice really sees the light of day. We also have a sense of HONOR and feel compelled to SAVE things, especially other people who are more likely to put actions to our theories. We like grateful guinea pigs, but are too add/biased/busy to want to stick around to run the labs on ourselves. And we aren't holding all of our self esteem tied to confirming our hypothesis or denying them. That would be illogical. Mostly, we just want to give it a go, and see what happens. That is good enough, until the next round! We don't feel like failures to be wrong; we just feel one step closer to the right answer.
INfjs LOVE theory as well. INtuition. But they apply it completely differently. They use it only to VALIDATE OR NEGATE the hypothesis. They are privately evaluating, step by step, deciding whether or not to even have a second trial. They are very private in their real theories (because they're so judgmental and pessimistic), so if you are part of their experiment, consider it for what it really is to them: A TEST. that is a fact. experiment to intp = TEST to infj.
Now both partners will make sport of "helping eachother" or "fixing the relationship", both doing research independently and discussing a little together. At first the INFJ will be relieved to find such ready skapegoat excuses, but they will quickly be overshadowed by the lack of progress in "fixing things." The INTP ( naievely honest) will begin to examine his own shortcomings and profess to strive to change and accomodate. He will search things like "INTP INFJ relationship", and articles about communication, and try to figure out what he himself can change. NOT SO with the INFJ. After their intial skapegoat theory sinks, they will NOT be searching the same things. They will search simply "INTP fighting" or your astrology chart, or start making up diagnosis for you. They will be happy to do certain public things (bring your dinner, fold laundry), but they will NEVER ever attempt to change their personality for you. Instead, since you are more than willing to change, you will now be the skapegoat, and are now living on borrowed time.
Because, without the INFJ EVER being willing to change, or even look at the true root of the problems, they never have a chance at being fixed. And now that you are the one that "needs fixing" the INFJ secretly has lost all respect for you, and is now sticking with it just because they like the ego trip, and they don't want to tell their friends that paradise is over and they were wrong about you.
They solve that problem by fabricating, exaggerating, using a COSMO magazine and concocting a story about you. The decide you were too immature, to crazy, too old, too far away, too controlling... anything. After the novelty of controlling someone wears off, and they realize that you are just as incapable of the their perfectionist idealizations as they themselves are, and with that FACT, friend, they are NOW DONE.
By now, they really don't care what you say, since they have written you off, so they don't even argue. You will think that amazing light has broken through and things are finally working out, but its exactly the opposite. The whole time you are thinking this, they are planning the breakup, breaking it down into tasks, dates and stratagems.
First they will find the blameless (for THEM) reason to tell themselves, and peers you guys broke up (Your Fault). As Ironic is this is to an INTP, it usually involves them accusing you of deception, or control, despite however inaccurate or false, because since these are the only things that can ever explain the judgement error without making them look bad. The will have to make themselves look like they were defrauded by crafty nefarious swindler. Enter INTP.
Second, they will test the theory on the closest friend they have and "ask advice" of the 1 or 2 people they trust and ESTEEM. They really have already decided what to do, they are just practicing their cover story, and testing the waters. Friends will always take their side because none of them really know the truth, and that's just what friends do. Don't be surprised or hurt. You probably don't have many mutual friends anyway.
Third, they will, day by day stop doing things that you normally do together. Like picking up dinner for one, when you eat dinner together every night, not make coffee in the morning anymore, not text during lunch break, go to bed without you. At this point they are still pretending to be giving it a shot, but really they are just staying in it long enough to reestablish their old routines, old relationships, and old life to make their own transition smooth, while at the same time, waiting for the right time to break up with you.
Finally, the moment they have been waiting for! Perhaps most vicious of all, the INFJ waits like a black widow for the right time. It has now been at least 2 weeks since they decided you were hopeless and not good enough for them. The past two weeks have been deceptively good to the INTP who believes that the INFJ is finally listening, and that their personal changes and sacrifices (which they have been striving earnestly, and humbly for the sake of the relationship) are ACTUALLY working. Sadly, you are simply being ignored, and dismissed. The only reason why it is so sweet and peaceful is because the INFJ is on their best behaviour, working not on themselves, not for the relationship, but working diligently and very patiently to mastermind the exit.
The last week is spent with you simply waiting for the eventual error, disagreement, wrong word, the perfect (blameless) reason to dump you. Such a cruel fate for the INTP, so blindsided, and then to be led into believing himself was to responsible for the demise. This time the INFJ will fight with you, but they will immediately extricate themselves, and by the next morning your things will be sitting in a box outside your door. No matter how stunned or heartbroken, no truth will be given here. No comfort. No reason. Never. In reality, you have lost privy to that part of the INFJ forever, a long time ago. Here, only a few short words, the absolute minimum are offered, and somehow no matter how sparse, always sufficient to make clear that YOU ARE OFFICIALLY CUT FROM THEIR LIFE, AND no more contact is is welcome. Do not deceive yourself INTP. They only say nice things for appearances, things like "be friends later" and "just need space now" are all flat out LIES. look anywhere online. INFJs only "need space" because they want you outta sight outta mind, and it is a COLD COLD day in hell for an INFJ to ever ever ever change their mind about someone once made up, and especially not about a past lover. Even if in 5 years you became the dream person they always wanted, they would absolutely never embarrasses themselves to their ESTEEMED friends and mentors by taking ( you- whom they have already bemoaned to their fans) you back. Short of a brain transplant, I cant see any way they could excuse that, thus it is not happening.
So how to be with an INFJ? don't. truth is that they only know how to be a mentor or a mentee. If you are awesome and like them, they think something is wrong with you, If you are awesome and don't like them, they will want you until they get you, and then move on.
tl;dr INFJ= Siren to INTP... detour detour
this is the truth of the relationship, unfiltered, derived.
Let it once be spoken, and spoken again wherever the question is asked.
Oh Fates, What have you for my fortune?
It is this brothers. Let you not beseech us hence.