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wow what a difference age and gender makes! (for some). I personally cannot imagine an INTP being less open than an INFJ, but apparently it happens! interested to know the relational stats...
 

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@addd:

I've dated two INTPs, and I also find the relationship untenable, though for other reasons. Here's my perspective from the other side:

The biggest reason, for me, was the INTP complete lack of respect for emotional and physical boundaries, and continuous boundary violations. I'm a good communicator, and even after numerous discussions about the issue, and how important and necessary my boundaries are, it kept happening with both INTPs I dated. One was not well-developed (bipolar personality), so perhaps that was understandable, but even the well-developed INTP I dated displayed the same behavior.

This includes: (1) showing up at my house uninvited; (1a) showing up at my work place univited and trying to get through building security, or "surprising" me (I HATE surprises); (2) going through or touching my things (for an INTP, this is not "snooping" it's just a misapprehension of the fact that my belongings are personal and private, and you shouldn't rummage through them without asking or without permission - for example, one INTP I dated asked me, even though my phone was right next to me, if I wanted him to look at it and tell me who had texted me. Um, no. None of your business. I will answer MY phone on my own time); (3) getting in touch with my ex boyfriend, without my knowledge or permission. Actually BOTH INTPs I dated did this. How is this appropriate, ever? (4) Boundary violations with my friends (adding them on Facebook, etc.) - no, they're not your friends, they're MY friends. After knowing them for 5 or 10 minutes, or even one night, friending is inappropriate. I feel like you're further trying to insert your tentacles into my life and make yourselves "stick" somehow - remember, I still haven't made up my mind about you and I probably won't for several months or longer. INFJs like to be friends first and see how things go in order to totally trust you. We can be having sex with you and still not consider it a relationship that is serious enough to risk (trust, again) fully incorporating you into our lives. This is a big deal for us and a huge risk and will only be done after much consideration; (5) talking about me or introducing me to your family before I'm ready - don't make the relationship something it isn't at an early stage. Isn't it possible for things to unfold organically? (6) Being clingy and needy; (7) "Checking in" on me on nights when we're not hanging out. It feels like you're checking up on me or distrust me. Can't we have some apart time too? (8) Debating just for the sake of fighting. Why? (this is minor in comparison to everything else, but it feels disrespectful); (9) inviting yourself to events that I'm going to, showing up uninvited, or assuming that I'm going to invite you. I really, really need my space, and if I haven't invited you, there's a reason - it means that I am going to hang out with other friends who feel an emotional need or outlet that you can't fill or that I'm not ready for you to fill yet; (10) overthinking everything. Why can't you guys just let go and be authentic? Life is not a game, and you don't always need a strategy. We want to know the real YOU. But the INTP is always in processing mode.

Small aside: I remember dating one INTP, and we had an argument in a public place. He raised his voice, and I told him about three times in a very calm voice that if he continued to yell at me, I was going to walk away and leave. He did, so I turned on my heel and walked home. He couldn't BELIEVE that I would disengage like that. I got several enraged messaged on my answering machine; he was just so stunned I would doorslam him, even though I warned him several times. Really? WTF?

Of course, for the INTP, the INFJ boundaries seem insane, and the INTP cannot understand them. So in their mind, we're secretive and withholding, and in our mind, they're violative and controlling. In fact, even reading my own words, I can see how the INTP would experience the INFJ as neurotic, secretive, and establishing numerous walls. The INFJ experiences the INTP as intrusive, smothering, manipulative and controlling.

Another issue I've had with INTPs is that they claim to know themselves very, very well. But you can't fool an INFJ. Both INTPs I dated would either (1) outright lie to me about their feelings; or (2) have such internal dissonance about their feelings that they didn't know what they were feeling. Both of these are terrifying to an INFJ. The INTP propensity to fake emotions is extremely chilling. It really freaks me out.

I found my INTPs externally very warm but internally cold, and perceived/experienced them both as manipulative. (NB: I'm not saying they were manipulative, but that I found it impossible to perceive them any other way). I always got the sense with both INTPs that they were faking it, putting on a public persona, which I found very hard to respect. I got the sense that they were used to putting on a facade for people and getting away with it, because they believe they are smarter than other people, but with me I always saw the internal coldness, and the mask, and it always became a real turn off.

Both INTPs wanted to own me. Despite the "open-ended" "P" function, they wanted to pin down the relationship right away, label and sort it, and make me their girlfriend. Usually, my thought would be that "J"s are more interested in such closure and definition, but it was the opposite with INTPs, and felt strangling. Here I am, months into a relationship and still making up my mind, and then forced to have weekly conversations on the "status" of our relationship and whether or not we're boyfriend/girlfriend yet. Why?

INTPs can be even more arrogant than INFJs. They will tell you that they are wonderful, smart, etc. INFJs, used to locating within themselves everything that is faulty and "wrong", are more humble and can't stand these declarations. They feel artificial and controlling. INTPs I've dated have told me how they're wonderful, great catches, extremely intelligent, etc. The INFJ, distrusting surfaces, thinks: "if you have to tell me this, it's definitely not true." At this point, suspicion kicks in and we start actively scrutinizing for faults.

addd accuses us of having "trophies" and "trophy causes", but, depending on the INTP, the INFJ doesn't perceive the INTP as having even a surface interest in social justice or helping people, and doesn't respect that. Respect will always be an issue between these two types. INTPs tend to be natural capitalists and entrepreneurs and, in some cases, the INFJ will see their work as reductive or instrumentalizing of other people. It seemed like both INTPs I dated were always hatching some scheme or another. INFJs, who are there for the cause, just see the scheme and are kind of grossed out. We can admire their ambition but distrust the personality bend that drives it.

Going along with the arrogance factor, both INTPs I dated liked to show off their smarts, but always seemed genuinely surprised when I said something intelligent or showed that I was as smart as they were. Way to alienate a lady, guys. INTJs, INFJs and ENFPs I've dated were genuinely respectful and appreciative of my intelligence. INTJs can be arrogant about their own intelligence, but they're usually super open minded debaters, and less alienating in how they present information.

Sigh, that's enough. This sounds angrier than it is. Neither INTP was a bad person, but the incompatibilities were pretty fundamental.
 

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My husband is an INTP. We will be celebrating our 25th anniversary this year. He has always been my best friend. We would choose each other's company over anyone else in the world. We respect each other in our various talents and abilities. We share some interests and have others that are exclusively our own.

The problems that exist, you knew there would be some since no relationship is perfect, are: His P and my J cause most of our conflict. I want to light a fire under him and he wants to drag his heels even more so when he senses he is being pushed :)His lack of initiation concerning anything social or emotional is frustrating. Basically, I have to be the extrovert in the relationship. He needs to be drawn out and pulled into things. It tires me out. Also, his lack of sensitivity to my emotions has caused much pain at times. I would say that INTP's tend to be very passive/aggressive. They won't get outwardly angry or jealous, but they try to win their side through sheer stubbornness:)

That being said, we have a very stable marriage, have raised two amazing kids who are now adults, and I know he will always be there for me. INTP's are very loving on the inside if you are the object of their affection. They become attached to you in a very simple, pure, and childlike way that is refreshing. If, on the other hand, you want someone who is a leader in the relationship, the INTP is not for you. The INTP and INFJ pairing can work and work well, but it is not for everyone. You have to know yourself and know what you can live with and without.
 

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INTP and INFJ boundries

I have seen the same bounds issues. To me they are all the product of Disney and the INFJ's hatred of conflict.. which leads them not to state the real bounderies.

For example, after a break up of a serious and long relationship INFJ says they want to remain friends, but after the INTP calls or stops by, and both times the situation seemed good to the INTP, the INFJ is telling other people they are being harrassed or stalked or the like. Even though, all the INFJ had to do was just ONCE say, "I don't want to be friends, hell, I don't ever want to talk to you again." That is all that it would take

I hate public arguements, and I would have walked away myself.

Showing up at work once is a typical hollywood romantic gesture, especially if there was a birthday, anniversary.

Going through things however, is a definate no no. Can't say I have ever done that, at least I will ask about things and make sure I have permission to look at something. 9 out 10 times I could care less about it anyway.

Trophy and charity are synonymous to INFJs in theory but I have to say that I was more active in day to day charity than any INFJ I knew. I just never told anyone about it because it disgusts me to do things for noterity.
But just being together so often, the INFJ did see the things I do and that was one of the things that made them like me. Its the difference between giving to Save the Whales and putting the sticker on your car (and deducting the contribution for taxes) and simply buying homeless people food. INFJ vs INTP charity.
Ask an INTP what they do charitywise and they will tell you, otherwise they probably never will. Ask an INFJ what they do for charity, oh wait. You'll never have to ask. They will tell you over and over and over. I had to hear the same ancient story about taking a homeless man out to dinner about 5 times talk about "kinda disgusting", All the while I'm sitting there on top of a dozen likewise examples of my own which I NEVER brought up, because that would take away from it, and taint it, and gross an INTP out.


Unfold organically? An INFJ NEVER lets that happen.
Please be honest.
What that really means is "go according to my own stratagems". An INFJ never lets anything unfold on its own. That is a joke, and you know it. Every phone call, date, and meeting is tithed, doled, counted and measured. They even decide "tonight will be our first kiss, next week we will sleep together," before the date even happens. Even after the first kiss, while youre saying goodnight, she is literally counting in her head, saying, " I will give this 20 more seconds before I go inside... 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, ..3"

For some reason it is true that in terms of relationships, the P vs J function is seemingly reversed for this pair. Everytime the INTP will want to settle down before the INFJ. But trust me, that doesnt have to do with wanting to own. It has to do with the INTP sensing that the INFJ is holding back when he is 100% in, and seeing the danger in that, and trying to fix it. Which is impossible to do by walking away after a certain point. We know that will be perceived as "game playing" and don't want to go there.

MIXED MESSAGES! How after months of dating and sleeping together could you still be on the fence about someone is completely alien and is not understood by any INTP. There is absolutely no facade with us, and that is why we do not understand it. If we say were in, we are. Basically dating for months and sleeping together either says to us that you're in, or you're a phony. And it seems pretty evil to us to be going along like you are if you secretly are not. Here is the other source of the boundry issues... INFJs are secretive, don't put things in black and white, and expect INTPs to take nonverbal or wishy washy hints as mandates. An INTP might possibly see the hint, but he will forever doubt its accuracy and it will only make him try to get you to say what you mean. It honestly just confuses the situation.
 

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@addd:

I've dated two INTPs, and I also find the relationship untenable, though for other reasons. Here's my perspective from the other side:

The biggest reason, for me, was the INTP complete lack of respect for emotional and physical boundaries, and continuous boundary violations. I'm a good communicator, and even after numerous discussions about the issue, and how important and necessary my boundaries are, it kept happening with both INTPs I dated. One was not well-developed (bipolar personality), so perhaps that was understandable, but even the well-developed INTP I dated displayed the same behavior.

This includes: (1) showing up at my house uninvited; (1a) showing up at my work place univited and trying to get through building security, or "surprising" me (I HATE surprises); (2) going through or touching my things (for an INTP, this is not "snooping" it's just a misapprehension of the fact that my belongings are personal and private, and you shouldn't rummage through them without asking or without permission - for example, one INTP I dated asked me, even though my phone was right next to me, if I wanted him to look at it and tell me who had texted me. Um, no. None of your business. I will answer MY phone on my own time); (3) getting in touch with my ex boyfriend, without my knowledge or permission. Actually BOTH INTPs I dated did this. How is this appropriate, ever? (4) Boundary violations with my friends (adding them on Facebook, etc.) - no, they're not your friends, they're MY friends. After knowing them for 5 or 10 minutes, or even one night, friending is inappropriate. I feel like you're further trying to insert your tentacles into my life and make yourselves "stick" somehow - remember, I still haven't made up my mind about you and I probably won't for several months or longer. INFJs like to be friends first and see how things go in order to totally trust you. We can be having sex with you and still not consider it a relationship that is serious enough to risk (trust, again) fully incorporating you into our lives. This is a big deal for us and a huge risk and will only be done after much consideration; (5) talking about me or introducing me to your family before I'm ready - don't make the relationship something it isn't at an early stage. Isn't it possible for things to unfold organically? (6) Being clingy and needy; (7) "Checking in" on me on nights when we're not hanging out. It feels like you're checking up on me or distrust me. Can't we have some apart time too? (8) Debating just for the sake of fighting. Why? (this is minor in comparison to everything else, but it feels disrespectful); (9) inviting yourself to events that I'm going to, showing up uninvited, or assuming that I'm going to invite you. I really, really need my space, and if I haven't invited you, there's a reason - it means that I am going to hang out with other friends who feel an emotional need or outlet that you can't fill or that I'm not ready for you to fill yet; (10) overthinking everything. Why can't you guys just let go and be authentic? Life is not a game, and you don't always need a strategy. We want to know the real YOU. But the INTP is always in processing mode.

Small aside: I remember dating one INTP, and we had an argument in a public place. He raised his voice, and I told him about three times in a very calm voice that if he continued to yell at me, I was going to walk away and leave. He did, so I turned on my heel and walked home. He couldn't BELIEVE that I would disengage like that. I got several enraged messaged on my answering machine; he was just so stunned I would doorslam him, even though I warned him several times. Really? WTF?

Of course, for the INTP, the INFJ boundaries seem insane, and the INTP cannot understand them. So in their mind, we're secretive and withholding, and in our mind, they're violative and controlling. In fact, even reading my own words, I can see how the INTP would experience the INFJ as neurotic, secretive, and establishing numerous walls. The INFJ experiences the INTP as intrusive, smothering, manipulative and controlling.

Another issue I've had with INTPs is that they claim to know themselves very, very well. But you can't fool an INFJ. Both INTPs I dated would either (1) outright lie to me about their feelings; or (2) have such internal dissonance about their feelings that they didn't know what they were feeling. Both of these are terrifying to an INFJ. The INTP propensity to fake emotions is extremely chilling. It really freaks me out.

I found my INTPs externally very warm but internally cold, and perceived/experienced them both as manipulative. (NB: I'm not saying they were manipulative, but that I found it impossible to perceive them any other way). I always got the sense with both INTPs that they were faking it, putting on a public persona, which I found very hard to respect. I got the sense that they were used to putting on a facade for people and getting away with it, because they believe they are smarter than other people, but with me I always saw the internal coldness, and the mask, and it always became a real turn off.

Both INTPs wanted to own me. Despite the "open-ended" "P" function, they wanted to pin down the relationship right away, label and sort it, and make me their girlfriend. Usually, my thought would be that "J"s are more interested in such closure and definition, but it was the opposite with INTPs, and felt strangling. Here I am, months into a relationship and still making up my mind, and then forced to have weekly conversations on the "status" of our relationship and whether or not we're boyfriend/girlfriend yet. Why?

INTPs can be even more arrogant than INFJs. They will tell you that they are wonderful, smart, etc. INFJs, used to locating within themselves everything that is faulty and "wrong", are more humble and can't stand these declarations. They feel artificial and controlling. INTPs I've dated have told me how they're wonderful, great catches, extremely intelligent, etc. The INFJ, distrusting surfaces, thinks: "if you have to tell me this, it's definitely not true." At this point, suspicion kicks in and we start actively scrutinizing for faults.

addd accuses us of having "trophies" and "trophy causes", but, depending on the INTP, the INFJ doesn't perceive the INTP as having even a surface interest in social justice or helping people, and doesn't respect that. Respect will always be an issue between these two types. INTPs tend to be natural capitalists and entrepreneurs and, in some cases, the INFJ will see their work as reductive or instrumentalizing of other people. It seemed like both INTPs I dated were always hatching some scheme or another. INFJs, who are there for the cause, just see the scheme and are kind of grossed out. We can admire their ambition but distrust the personality bend that drives it.

Going along with the arrogance factor, both INTPs I dated liked to show off their smarts, but always seemed genuinely surprised when I said something intelligent or showed that I was as smart as they were. Way to alienate a lady, guys. INTJs, INFJs and ENFPs I've dated were genuinely respectful and appreciative of my intelligence. INTJs can be arrogant about their own intelligence, but they're usually super open minded debaters, and less alienating in how they present information.

Sigh, that's enough. This sounds angrier than it is. Neither INTP was a bad person, but the incompatibilities were pretty fundamental.
most of this doesent sound like INTP at all. pretty much the only thing that i can even remotely see as being typical for INTPs is the need for knowing whether it is a relationship or are we just dating.. oh yea and i might pick up a book from your bookshelf if i find it interesting or something like that, but you can be sure that your book wont be handled with dirty hands and will be placed back exactly where it belongs. i think these guys you are talking about werent INTPs
 

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I am an INFJ and my brother is an INTP. we were the best of friends when we were children. in our teenage years, we grew further apart. now, as adults, we are working towards repairing our relationship by studying our personality types. the T and F butt heads a lot! I have trouble with his lack of empathy and he has trouble with my lack of objectiveness. we were surprised to see that our personalities were highly compatible. hopefully we can repair the relationship by looking at our similarities instead of differences. maybe our friendship will be what it was like when we were children.
 

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ADDD, my friend, it is like you described my personal story step-by-step. You are absolutely right in every detail. Every single one. It is even scary. Listen to his wise words, fellow INTPs, listen and RUN. FAST. Don't even look back.


most thorough rundown of infj - intp relationships out there. Trust me, I have searched. Anyone who has something else to say, please write your own experience. Lets build a wealth of information.

INTPs. Run. She's posing as a houseplant. INFJ=siren to INTP

Seriously INTP brothers, I have had multiple intense relationships with different age/ and background INFJ's and inspite of the age gap/ different backgrounds , the very same basic problems always cause the demise.

INTPs are immediately attracted to the intelligence, the challenge to break down barriers of dishonesty, and the mystery of the INFJ. At first glance they will have a seemingly similar philosophy and intellectualism that will draw you in. The INFJ, likewise, will be attracted by your honesty and logic.... at first. They, always feeling alone and strange in the world will be relieved to have found someone just as odd, alien and intelligent.

It all goes sour after awhile because the core parts of both are absolutely missing in each other, and both misrepresent themselves, despite the intentions.

The INTP immediately is drawn to the responsibility in the J, and assumes that brings the same logical backbone. It doesn't. The Infj is immediately attracted to the honesty, and assumes they can tolerate the philosophical debates. They cannot.

See. It's simple. INFJs are perfect on the surface, and they will do anything to keep that appearance, including even if they feel necessary : lying, cheating, manipulating, withholding and "doorslamming." They would rather not do these things, but are rather Machiavellian when push comes to shove. They never ever fully open up to anyone else, are masters of keeping people at arms length, finding scapegoats, and avoiding the unpleasant like an ostrich with its head in the sand.

INTPS live for truth, no matter how ugly, and will stop at nothing to see its day in the sun. We always seek more knowledge, and leave the book open, simply adding new information without judgement (we see that as premature.)

INFJ's live for nobility (which they see as a function of their physical labor, and social esteem.) They are deeply offended by any critical opinion of their behavior, as they do NOT delay judgment, and count every action into their ongoing judgement. If you did great things for 30 years, and spent the last year being an asshole and died, sorry. In their books you would be written off. They are very immediate based, always wondering "what will serve my goals best here and now," and see the present as time to be spent achieving their goals, which are NOT the goals of an INTP.

Their real goals ( albeit to their ALL distant friends they prefer to appear charitable, pious, and intelligent) are simply to gather trophies;
Degrees, certs, paychecks, public recognition, vegan, marathons, volunteer work, dinner parties. Their id function is to be admired by others. In the end, they will do anything to uphold this supreme virtue, even discard everyone who knows them well enough to know their flaws and hypocrisy, no matter "love." For this reason many INFJs will speak of "chosen family"

The INTP senses this tepidity at first. But he writes it off, as you probably will this, being a real scientist and not wanting to be biased.

But heed my warning of the Siren.

The end is the opposite of the beginning, and it comes with no warning, recourse, or comfort. The INFJ will not put their heart into the conversations designed to repair, nor will they include you WHATSOEVER in their thinking process of ending it. They will play along, extracting themselves the same way they dole it out in the beginning, make a plan, and start moving on while still together, without telling you. They are weaning themselves, sneaky at it all, for by the time the break up comes you will find they are surprisingly cool, and you will be amazingly shocked.

All those prebreakup conversations you had, filled with soul searching and promises will ring in your ears, but they will not listen. INFJs are FAMOUS for doing this, and then RUNNING away.
Meaning they will tell you not to even contact them ( "need space"), when you are devastated and recoiling for answers.
Best advice, don't look for them. Truth is, if you are being dumped by an INFJ
THEY ALREADY DECIDED TO DUMP YOU WEEKS AGO,
and have purposely strung you along long enough to gather their strength (friend advice), and plan/ start a new life.

Usually the INTP gets dumped instead of dumping due to the fact that he keeps everything open ended, so even though he will see the problems (but be unable to deal with all the obvious INFJ ostrich lies, and with their inability to rationally and calmly examine anything controversial), you will not dump the INFJ. You can see the potential for change forever. You keep researching and trying to change yourself, sure that you can superhero like fix it.

The INFJ is not so.
Everything is judged immediately, privately, and not based on any higher principle such as truth...

it is based on =f(what will achieve my goal to be admired) always.
always.
always. They will even lie to themselves, discard their whole family, spend their whole lives alone, anything, EVERYTHING.... They constantly judge, and feel judged and the second you try to help them IT IS ALL OVER. trust that.
(same for if you decide to just let them help you. you have not outsmarted fate. instead, you will become a pet project, and like everything in their lives, and without doubt, you will not match up to their cold perfectionism and myopic standards. Furthermore, if the project is in anyway at all personally attached to a trophy or in their sanctum of no mans land , they will secretively lose respect for you, for causing them discomfort and for having asked for help, as they ask NOONE for help, and think you must be less than them for doing so.)

Run. Run. Run. The first month will be heaven. Go ahead. Have it, but whatever you do... DO NOT LET THEM DUMP YOU. It will take twice as long to get over, as you will be left figuring out what the hell happened, by yourself, and they will be too busy trying to forget you (no matter how close you were) to care to reveal anything about it, or themselves to you EVER AGAIN.

It's all old news to them, as they dumped you 2 weeks ago, privately (some even have secret ceremonials involving rocks, oceans, or fire.)

Oh and thinking you'll win them back in true Hollywood form? Ha! NO CHANCE!
Truth is, they all think any attempts to earn them back are PATHETIC.
Remember, what do they covet?
The covet esteem, and anyone who would seek their advice or beg them is immediately cast aside as inferior. Because they are judgement perfectionists, who are caught up on public opinion, they will never see the valor in repentance, or the Disney charm in make ups. They see grovelling, and they will, at best, enjoy the stroke to the ego and continue doorslam, as that is now the obvious choice of the nobel. They will never admit to wrongs or feel culpable, so don't even bother. Every minute spent entreating otherwise is a damned waste, and shame to the shreds of dignity left.
If they were capable of the kind of honest introspection, required by true (public) repentance or forgiveness, you wouldn't be this lamentable fate in the first place.

Just as the INTP feels the sigh of relief and gratitude when the relationship is deep enough to finally be/ discuss/ confess/ debate the personal details ( glory days for the INTP) in truth, your INFJ is HATING LIFE.
yes, when our favorite part begins is when their least favorite part begins. INFJs have good ideas in the abstract because they ARE ARTISTS of the generic and the abstract, practicing a lifetime of saying just the thing to gain as many admirers as possible. They have been living up to a facade, so well, for so long that they rarely even know themselves, or even when they are lying anymore.

INTPs feel issues are solved by delving in, investigating, discussing, researching, understanding, and the humility and courage (honorable) to change and adapt.

INFJs feel issues are solved independently, privately, by weighing sums and averages, stealthy disengaging, redirecting, further defining (never redefining), abandoning, and redirecting. Which is pretty disgusting to any real blooded INTP.

If you weren't an INTP whos covets TRUTH above all else, you could keep any INFJ will these secrets.
Simply start dating as normal.
Get past infj "onion" layers, walls, annoying doling out of appearances by remaining patient and aloof.
Watch verbal com at first. They will judge you by the ratio of effort put into contact you/them. If you start off very unequal, it will NEVER be changed. If you put in less than them, they will never open up. Always put in just slightly more effort into communication.
Find out what they like. This will be obvious, as they feel it defines them and will brag about it. This is the key.

The infj will not respect you if you ask questions about their hobbies/ ideas. The mentor/ teacher role is one-dimensional with them. They will also not respect you (after an initial curiosity) if you debate their "trophies" with them. No matter how right you are, they will simply grow to dismiss you if you challenge any of their trophies. They will not understand, and will just think you are an asshole.

Their favorite trophies of all time are those that require extreme self denial, self discipline, intellectualism, piety, and charity. This means their degree, their job, their house, their friends, their public charity projects. Even if you find out that their alma mater is abducting and slaughtering East African babies, and you think since they (have the same good heart as you , lol) seem to care about people (since they are so very sensitive) .....that they would prefer you told them about the babies... they DONT. DO NOT TELL THEM.

The only way to tell an INFJ ANYTHING new and personal is to provide a link, or a respected article with NO OPINION of YOUR OWN IMPLIED, somewhere they will STUMBLE across it. Then never mention it, and pray they read it. If they did read it, and it changed their views AT ALL, they will be completely embarrassed and do a little extra research in secret. They will try to find more popular opinion, sources, and will ask one of the older esteemed and respected, and trusted in their circle. If this doesn't give them the comfort of agreement (what they really seek), they will finally consider changing their opinion.

Before they can do that, they invariably will seek and locate a plausible skapegoat, in order to maintain the perfection image, it is necessary. Being so judgmental in every moment, they cannot make mistakes, no matter how temporal without feeling like bad-inferior people. This is the root of their evil. All soul searching, personal growth, real insight is sacrificed to the identity they build around superiority/inferiority in social constructs, and perfection/ external validation requisites.

Ignore my advice, INTP, and a million times over you will wish to God or whathaveyou, that your INFJ could for once, put their petty pride aside just long enough to reap even a little benefit of truth. Indeed, they will trust you more than anyone oneelse (for the moment), but they will never fully trust you, never fully let you in, never fully break down/ confess/ lament/ confide. They will never know the sweet communion an INTP feels in his soul, when he can finally be completely transparent. Their sad fate is due to the fact that they feel they have to, day by day, earn their worth... Like they wake up worthless, and only with enough trophies by the end of the day, they will feel worthwhile. An INTP knows the false logic and foolishness inherent upon laying our identity in the hands and opinion of men and their earthy treasures. An INTP wakes up feeling the opposite, like he already is gold inside, destined for greatness with a little elbow grease and spit shine. The INTP is actually IMPRESSED when other people are downright self defacingly honest and humble. He admires the bravery and honesty. He thinks its what makes us connected as humans. The Infj never understands or appreciates this concept, whatsoever.

Back to the advice for dating: So instead of asking about the trophies, or trying to have philosophical discussions, do this instead:
1. find trophies
2. become a fellow fan/ expert in/ participant (PUBLIC) in trophies ex: veganism, rock climbing, movie, charity.... whatever
IN reality, the INFJ is interested in you because you are so gut wrenchingly honest that they see you as the least threatening person to open up to. They are masters at controlling relationships and manipulating behind the scenes, and while they admire your sense of "honor" (NOT integrity), they most appreciate you because they know they can keep one step ahead of you. Everyone else plays the same games they do, and that is why they keep all of them at arms bay. You will feel delighted and special, being one of the few, if any to be "allowed in." Don't get carried away into thinking you are both on the same page. The INFJ doesn't think you are, trust me. You will notice this time keeper, date counter, gate keeper presence constantly lingering around the edges of the INFJ no matter how deep you get. You will think you can coax him out of his shell into the promised land of enough self esteem to be honest.

WRONG. This is the beginning of the end. Attempts to cross the final mile will be met with severe recoil. Your first tears will now be shed. You will gently encourage, and be surprised by the backlash it causes. The INFJ will blame it on your insensitivity (rather than their unwillingness to deal with painful truths), and being it in the beginning, you will be blindsided and coax and soothe, in a dumbfounded attempt to repair the damage. Too late. INFJs never forget or forgive. They keep a running till and just keep adding. You can never make points up. The next time one of these topics rears its head, they will be slightly more withdrawn, and you will misunderstand that to mean they are actually LIstening!!!

They are not listening. Only withdrawing. But they won't tell you that, so you will keep on talking like a good old Fact Finder INTP, foolishly celebrating what is actually a departure. This will continue to snowball until you address it.

Here is where most people break up, or fix the problem... but NOT the infj and intp combo!!! no, we have our own special breed of hell waiting for two. See, the INTP and the INFP only really have THEORY, and SERVICE in common. INTPs like to come up with the theory, revise it, revise it, revise it and move on to something totally different without even caring if the theories practice really sees the light of day. We also have a sense of HONOR and feel compelled to SAVE things, especially other people who are more likely to put actions to our theories. We like grateful guinea pigs, but are too add/biased/busy to want to stick around to run the labs on ourselves. And we aren't holding all of our self esteem tied to confirming our hypothesis or denying them. That would be illogical. Mostly, we just want to give it a go, and see what happens. That is good enough, until the next round! We don't feel like failures to be wrong; we just feel one step closer to the right answer.

INfjs LOVE theory as well. INtuition. But they apply it completely differently. They use it only to VALIDATE OR NEGATE the hypothesis. They are privately evaluating, step by step, deciding whether or not to even have a second trial. They are very private in their real theories (because they're so judgmental and pessimistic), so if you are part of their experiment, consider it for what it really is to them: A TEST. that is a fact. experiment to intp = TEST to infj.

Now both partners will make sport of "helping eachother" or "fixing the relationship", both doing research independently and discussing a little together. At first the INFJ will be relieved to find such ready skapegoat excuses, but they will quickly be overshadowed by the lack of progress in "fixing things." The INTP ( naievely honest) will begin to examine his own shortcomings and profess to strive to change and accomodate. He will search things like "INTP INFJ relationship", and articles about communication, and try to figure out what he himself can change. NOT SO with the INFJ. After their intial skapegoat theory sinks, they will NOT be searching the same things. They will search simply "INTP fighting" or your astrology chart, or start making up diagnosis for you. They will be happy to do certain public things (bring your dinner, fold laundry), but they will NEVER ever attempt to change their personality for you. Instead, since you are more than willing to change, you will now be the skapegoat, and are now living on borrowed time.

Because, without the INFJ EVER being willing to change, or even look at the true root of the problems, they never have a chance at being fixed. And now that you are the one that "needs fixing" the INFJ secretly has lost all respect for you, and is now sticking with it just because they like the ego trip, and they don't want to tell their friends that paradise is over and they were wrong about you.

They solve that problem by fabricating, exaggerating, using a COSMO magazine and concocting a story about you. The decide you were too immature, to crazy, too old, too far away, too controlling... anything. After the novelty of controlling someone wears off, and they realize that you are just as incapable of the their perfectionist idealizations as they themselves are, and with that FACT, friend, they are NOW DONE.

By now, they really don't care what you say, since they have written you off, so they don't even argue. You will think that amazing light has broken through and things are finally working out, but its exactly the opposite. The whole time you are thinking this, they are planning the breakup, breaking it down into tasks, dates and stratagems.

First they will find the blameless (for THEM) reason to tell themselves, and peers you guys broke up (Your Fault). As Ironic is this is to an INTP, it usually involves them accusing you of deception, or control, despite however inaccurate or false, because since these are the only things that can ever explain the judgement error without making them look bad. The will have to make themselves look like they were defrauded by crafty nefarious swindler. Enter INTP.

Second, they will test the theory on the closest friend they have and "ask advice" of the 1 or 2 people they trust and ESTEEM. They really have already decided what to do, they are just practicing their cover story, and testing the waters. Friends will always take their side because none of them really know the truth, and that's just what friends do. Don't be surprised or hurt. You probably don't have many mutual friends anyway.

Third, they will, day by day stop doing things that you normally do together. Like picking up dinner for one, when you eat dinner together every night, not make coffee in the morning anymore, not text during lunch break, go to bed without you. At this point they are still pretending to be giving it a shot, but really they are just staying in it long enough to reestablish their old routines, old relationships, and old life to make their own transition smooth, while at the same time, waiting for the right time to break up with you.

Finally, the moment they have been waiting for! Perhaps most vicious of all, the INFJ waits like a black widow for the right time. It has now been at least 2 weeks since they decided you were hopeless and not good enough for them. The past two weeks have been deceptively good to the INTP who believes that the INFJ is finally listening, and that their personal changes and sacrifices (which they have been striving earnestly, and humbly for the sake of the relationship) are ACTUALLY working. Sadly, you are simply being ignored, and dismissed. The only reason why it is so sweet and peaceful is because the INFJ is on their best behaviour, working not on themselves, not for the relationship, but working diligently and very patiently to mastermind the exit.

The last week is spent with you simply waiting for the eventual error, disagreement, wrong word, the perfect (blameless) reason to dump you. Such a cruel fate for the INTP, so blindsided, and then to be led into believing himself was to responsible for the demise. This time the INFJ will fight with you, but they will immediately extricate themselves, and by the next morning your things will be sitting in a box outside your door. No matter how stunned or heartbroken, no truth will be given here. No comfort. No reason. Never. In reality, you have lost privy to that part of the INFJ forever, a long time ago. Here, only a few short words, the absolute minimum are offered, and somehow no matter how sparse, always sufficient to make clear that YOU ARE OFFICIALLY CUT FROM THEIR LIFE, AND no more contact is is welcome. Do not deceive yourself INTP. They only say nice things for appearances, things like "be friends later" and "just need space now" are all flat out LIES. look anywhere online. INFJs only "need space" because they want you outta sight outta mind, and it is a COLD COLD day in hell for an INFJ to ever ever ever change their mind about someone once made up, and especially not about a past lover. Even if in 5 years you became the dream person they always wanted, they would absolutely never embarrasses themselves to their ESTEEMED friends and mentors by taking ( you- whom they have already bemoaned to their fans) you back. Short of a brain transplant, I cant see any way they could excuse that, thus it is not happening.

So how to be with an INFJ? don't. truth is that they only know how to be a mentor or a mentee. If you are awesome and like them, they think something is wrong with you, If you are awesome and don't like them, they will want you until they get you, and then move on.

tl;dr INFJ= Siren to INTP... detour detour
this is the truth of the relationship, unfiltered, derived.
Let it once be spoken, and spoken again wherever the question is asked.
Oh Fates, What have you for my fortune?
It is this brothers. Let you not beseech us hence.
 

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Yeah... I don’t recommend INFJ-INTP relationships, and not to say that it’s impossible to work it out, but I think INFJs and INTPs do not really stand on a common ground... The so-called “INFJ-INTP Golden Pair” is everywhere on the internet, and I highly disagree. Not to sound big-headed or anything, but I think INTPs tend to look up to the INFJ more than the INFJ does to the INTP... According to socionics, the INFJ is the benefactor to the INTP, meaning that the INTP looks up to the INFJ while the INFJ does not find the INTP as a “very interesting person”. While I’ve heard of great INTP and INFJ relationships out there, I personally don’t think it is ideal. I agree with @addd , and I definitely think that INTPs should stay away, ‘cause as INFJs, we do not like to upfront express our dissatisfaction in the relationships, since we’re not fond of the forthcoming conflict, and I definitely do not like addressing conflict in such an upfront manner, so we bottle everything up along with our dissatisfaction, especially when the INTP is not as emotionally-expressive as we desire our partners to be. I’ve actually had an experience with an INTP, and he was definitely not one to express his emotions and thus would not set his boundaries for the relationship, so it was difficult for me to act with no boundaries, because as an INFJ, as much as I hate to admit it, I am a very very emotional creature, and with him not expressing his emotions, how do I know what to do, or how to act without his emotional boundaries? Because he did not express verbal affection and such, I left the relationship, and that was when I really knew that he had feelings for me, because he started sulking, and boy, it did not end well... BTW, this was in the very beginning of the relationship, and I’m very much more inclined to emotions than logic, and it is the opposite for him, so it created this huge misunderstanding between us, and it was awful. When I left, I thought that he would not take it in such a personal way, but he did, and that’s when I truly knew that he did indeed have feelings for me... I hope I’m being understandable right now... I’m not the very best at explaining, but INTPs need someone who is logical... perhaps an INTJ? I can see a much better potential for an INTP-INTJ relationship, and I think that that is the true “Golden Pair”. As an INFJ, I’m definitely more fond of NFPs, especially when we’re in the same temperament, and thus we stand on a common ground, creating a better understanding in the relationship. Also, INTPs—or NTs in general—rub me in a wrong way without them necessarily knowing... I could take the time getting used to that, but there should be a more natural “feel” to the communication between us, and it should not feel forced, unlike my interaction with NFPs. NTs like to debate for sport, and as an INFJ, I’m not really fond of that, or “debate” in general, so yeah... INFJs and INTPs are on completely different planets, or galaxies, even. I feel confident in sharing my thoughts on this subject, especially after learning so much about MBTI from the internet and online lectures on YouTube. I highly recommend watching a good lecture series from C.S. Joseph. He is really good at his lectures, and as of now, he is in the process of doing a series on MBTI types and their social compatibility with one another. It’s really interesting, and I 10/10 would recommend you all watch it... My understanding of the types has grown so much ever since I started watching his videos... also, you will enjoy his sarcastic humor, especially if you’re an NT or NTP, ‘cause he’s an ENTP. :) Speaking of compatibility, INFJs have the best compatibility with NFPs, and I can confirm on that based on my experience. Go NFPs! :D I’m also quite fond of NTPs, and I admire those types, but I’ve decided that it is most optimum for me as an INFJ to keep them at arm’s length and limit our relationships in the friendship zone, because it is very unfamiliar territory when comes to romantic relationships with them.

Also, in an INFJ-INTP relationship, the INTP may be (even at most times) oblivious to the fact that the INFJ is hurt (INTPs rub me in the wrong way at times), since we harbor negative emotions, and seeing the INTP as someone who is more logical, we will have difficulty expressing our own emotions, and that is when hatred can develop and thus end the relationship between the two.

The INFJ will therefore be dissatisfied and constantly hurt emotionally, so it is not a really good time for the INFJ... whereas with NFPs, they just know how to work things out with me naturally, and it’s like magic. Then there’s this constant comfort and understanding in the relationship. It’s amazing, actually, how cognitive functions work.

Anyways, I just gave my 2 cents... I do not expect everyone to agree with what I said, especially INTPs, due to how we interpret things differently, and it definitely is more emotion-based for me, and INTPs, who are more inclined towards logical reasoning, do not really understand the INFJ the way we want to be understood. So, yeah...

And that one experience I had with an INTP—it was because I did not get the verbal affection I needed, and I felt like my emotions were being played with, even though that was not his intention. So when I left, I felt this amazing sense of “freedom” from being emotionally tortured, due to the fact that he was not capable of dealing with and expressing emotions as much as an NFP would.

Therefore, when the INFJ doorslam is finally put into action, both parties end up being hurt. The INTP is perplexed by the situation, constantly looking for answers as to why it happened, and even sulks (based on my experience). Then, the INFJ, being an Ni-Fe dom, senses this from the INTP, and thus the INFJ, as an empath, will feel those emotions from the INTP and will feel bad, so then the INFJ is also hurt. Then the INFJ tries even harder to forget the INTP, which does not really help, so both parties hurt even more, creating this huge resentment between the two. Sure, the INFJ and INTP could try to solve it themselves, but how so, especially with the lack of communication after the INFJ doorslam? And I’m really sorry that INFJs are notorious for their doorslams, but we need the doorslams. If we doorslam somebody, it is for a “good” and personal reason. Define that however you’d like, but we do it as a defense mechanism and a form of self-respect to avoid being hurt again, especially being really emotional creatures...

Alright, that is all. I can go on about the topic, but I’ve got much more important things to take care of as of now...
 

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Whoa. What a thread. Especially the long post on the second page lol. It pushed some of my buttons. I'm going to write about my experiences here, and I want to make it clear that my experiences may be different from the experiences of other INFJs.

I have some few INTP friends, I wouldn't date them. Even as friends, we often discuss and get annoyed if we don't take a break from each other sometimes.

Mostly, what annoys me in INTPs and Ti doms in general:

1) They are naively unaware of how close-minded they are. Like, one guy on this thread wrote about how INTPs seek truth, and we (INFJs) don't seek the truth. Think about it. He seeks "the truth". This is fucking arrogant. They think they are perfectly objective, but they aren't. They think acting like a computer or robot/trying to act as impersonal as possible makes them right or unbiased in some way. They create a false objectivity in theory that never exists in reality. Like, get off your high horse. You have your bias and emotional motivations like every other single human being on earth has.

2) They are totally oblivious to social dynamics. This normally wouldn't bother me, because I try to tolerate people's weaknesses, but sometimes this is very annoying.

3) Most of them have very naive, childish, black-and-white views of morality/right and wrong. I blame this on their inferior Fe. They are like a kid when it comes to morality (a kid using sophisticated intellectual language to express ideas).

Like, I don't even know how to describe the way this "unbiased seeker of truth" BS annoys me. God.
 

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Interesting thread!
@addd I read half of your first post and will read the rest later. Very intriguing- and scary. I noticed some of traits you described in someone I initially considered to be INFJ (he never took the IMBT test and after knowing him better, I decided ISFP described him better; though your post made me think twice), including caring too much about the public image, doing volunteer work to look like a good person while he didn't seem to appreciate it in private- a shocking discovery for me, as every time I enthusiastically talked about what seemed to be "shared charitable interests" I faced cold responses, or even worse, heard phrases like "so what? they don't pay me for that (!!!)", holding his GF around for public recognition- again- and personal benefits while he repeatedly cheated on her, etc. I don't have much experience and to be honest, it seems unfair to say all INFJs are like that, though I think the immature ones are prone to manipulative behavior and it mostly comes from a place of fear.
@nosylav08 "INTP looks up to the INFJ while the INFJ does not find the INTP as a “very interesting person”." Well, isn't it manipulative to have a relationship with someone you find uninteresting and pretend to love them?
@Aiwass You consider most INTP's version of morality to be childish and naive. Can you give me some examples? I'm curious about your definition of morals/personal values.
 

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@marybluesky
So, at least in my experience, during the first few stages of the relationship, I felt that there’s chemistry due to the fact that there’s initial understanding. But later in the relationship, as we opened up to each other more, I realized that our perspectives on things were actually different, and it resulted in certain conflicts (as I have mentioned). I wouldn’t call it manipulative (at least in my case; I know that INFJs do indeed have those tendencies), because I cut off the connection (hence the doorslam), since I did not think it was ideal for me later in the relationship... it didn’t last very long... I mean, it’s a great relationship, really, but I think it requires mature individuals, and any relationship could work with maturity. We’re both pretty young, and I think it was too much for us to handle. And INTPs have inferior/aspirational Fe, so I’m guessing that’s why they may be attracted to INFJs, since INFJs use Fe a lot without much difficulty, so INFJs can understand others well (least I can oftentimes), but I did not feel understood by the INTP emotion-wise (I realized this later in the relationship, and I think it’s due to his inferior Fe), and INFJs are all about emotions—we’re all about how we “feel”, whereas the INTP is all about how/what they “think”. I appreciate your reply btw, thank you. This thread could really go on, wow...
 

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@marybluesky That quote I used was actually from a website regarding socionics, so I was merely quoting my sources. Socionics can be kinda confusing, idk. I just did a little research, but I have my doubts about such sources now... I used the quote, because I thought it was agreeable for my case, but perhaps it’s not because I don’t find INTP I knew as a “very interesting person”... it was more like, I understood him better than he understood me... when we communicated, he felt more understood than I by him. It just felt one-sided... /: I may only be speaking for myself, but some INFJs have felt the same dissatisfaction within their relationships with an INTP, and I know this, because I’ve read similar stories... but again, it could work, IF both parties are mature enough for a growth relationship 😄
 

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@maryblue And I did actually have genuine feelings for him... I thought of the long-term goals we could achieve together in the long run... so I didn’t “pretend” to love him... our feelings for each other were mutually felt, but we just didn’t have mutual understanding... /:
 

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@marybluesky I would also like to emphasize the fact that I’m speaking from experience with one particular INTP... and I believe he’s an unhealthy one... not to mention that he lied to me so many times. He lacked integrity in many ways, and I know this for a fact, but I’m not delving deeper into it, since it gets more personal. I am looking forward to meeting more INTPs, and that ought to shift how I perceive INTPs, since there are healthier INTPs that I haven’t met, and I think I shouldn’t judge INTPs as a whole based on one experience, so yeah...
 

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@marybluesky I would also like to say that you hit the nail on the head when you said that it comes “from a place of fear”. And yes, @addd, we INFJs are afraid of looking bad. We are afraid of how we are perceived. It stems from our constant performance anxiety. We wake up feeling worthless, so we try to overcompensate by trying to earn those so-called “trophies”. We "live on kudos" (C.S. Joseph). I’ve often felt so worthless at certain times, that I’ve considered taking my own life, as much as I’d hate to admit. And yes, we put on a fake facade to look as if we have a (fake) sense of pride and confidence when we really don’t. Also, I don’t like to show how I’m truly feeling, because I don’t want other people to worry about me, and I want to keep things “civil”, if you will. I don’t want others to think that they have to be responsible for what I feel on a daily basis, so that’s also why I always try to look “good” with my fake sense of pride along with my “trophies”. BTW, the doorslam—as much as it is an act of self-respect—it is also a damaging process. When I door slammed the INTP I knew, I was hurt badly, but somehow, I just knew it was the right thing, since he hurt me without even knowing at times, and again, the feeling of being understood was not reciprocated... again, it’s all about fear... my fear of getting hurt. You’d think that the doorslam was done in an ice-cold manner... wrong. It took a lot of courage to come to that decision, and we just go for it when feel that like we have to, since we decide that it’s “for the better”.
 

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@addd @marybluesky

I thought it would be interesting if I share a link to C.S. Joseph’s analysis of an INFJ, because it is so accurate, it’s scary, and maybe INTPs and even INFJs can have a better understanding of the INFJ personality type.. by watching the video, you'll find out the raw truth behind why INFJs like to keep a "perfect" image, which, we're really not, and INTPs "seek the truth", so why not click on the link? :)

INFJ:

Here’s another link for the INTP personality, so that we get a better understanding of both types ;)

INTP:

Don’t forget to subscribe to his channel! :D
 

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Here are more links regarding the virtue and vice of INFJs and INTPs... very interesting and pretty accurate as well... just for fun and food for thought:

INFJ:


INTP:
 
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