INFJ who can't see their own future anymore..

3306 Views 20 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Lindasandoval, May 31, 2022

yewduyou

Discussion Starter · May 12, 2022

As I get older I feel myself getting more impulsive and doing things when the time comes without thinking much about it.

But I do miss a part of the old me who is working towards the long future and days filled with hope and hard work towards one thing.

For example since I was four my dream is to get into a design institution and days are filled with studying to get ahead of my score to pass elementary, middle and high school so I would get accepted at my dream university while also working on my skill as the designated major which is design.

Now I am working as a graphic designer and as I achieved my long term goal, I just go by days working my 8-4 job and even easily get sick even when I do nothing because maybe I don't have enough strong will as before.

Nothing pressuring me in a good way to have vivid days of imagining going to achieve a long-term goal again.

I do have a dream company I haven't gotten to but maybe I should just enjoy this moment of working obvious job and seize the moment (?) Idk

Or do you have any good suggestion to laid out a big plan again?

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JimT

· #2 · May 12, 2022

How old are you? Would this situation qualify as a type of mid-life crisis, or are you too young to be going through something like that?

yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 12, 2022

JimT said:
How old are you? Would this situation qualify as a type of mid-life crisis, or are you too young to be doing that?

Three more years and I'm almost thirty, is this usually that mid-life crisis?

JimT

· #4 · May 12, 2022

Still in your twenties? No, that's kind of young to be having a mid-life crisis. Usually mid-life crises happen in one's forties or fifties. So never mind about mid-life crisis.

Here's a different idea: I've noticed something that I like to call "Ni-Dom acedia."

Basically Ni-Doms tend to keep a certain amount of distance between themselves and life. When something interests them, they back off and study it as though through a telescope or microscope. But over time, their habit of "distancing" themselves from life results in a sense of being disconnected from life, adrift, and rudderless. It results in a kind of torpor and acedia. See the Wikipedia article on "Acedia" for a description. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia

It can happen at any time in an Ni-Dom's life. But it can also culminate in a massive mid-life crisis later in life if not addressed. I've seen some Ni-Doms really go a little nuts later in life due to this kind of thing.

Anyway, check out that "acedia" article and see what you think of that as a "diagnosis."

(I'm not a shrink.)

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Squirt

· #5 · May 12, 2022

JimT said:
Still in your twenties? No, that's kind of young to be having a mid-life crisis. Usually mid-life crises happen in one's forties or fifties. So never mind about mid-life crisis.

Here's a different idea: I've noticed something that I like to call "Ni-Dom acedia."

Basically Ni-Doms tend to keep a certain amount of distance between themselves and life. When something interests them, they back off and study it as though through a telescope or microscope. But over time, their habit of "distancing" themselves from life results in a sense of being disconnected from life, adrift, and rudderless. It results in a kind of torpor and acedia. See the Wikipedia article on "Acedia" for a description. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia

It can happen at any time in an Ni-Dom's life. But it can also culminate in a massive mid-life crisis later in life if not addressed. I've seen some Ni-Doms really go a little nuts later in life due to this kind of thing.

Anyway, check out that "acedia" article and see what you think of that as a "diagnosis." (I'm not a shrink.)

Though not the intended recipient, this is helpful for me, as well. Hope it is okay to side-track a little, but maybe yew would benefit, as well.

You're right about using certain "interests" as a barrier but also a way to maintain a connection with life (resulting in that telescopic/microscopic lens). If the "interest" becomes lost, the connection severs, and it's like there is no recourse. What gets most frustrating is the inability to control the drive behind it. Sort of like... I can't will that intensity of focus into existence again... and when that intensity reappears (often from the subconscious, I've noticed), I can't control where it is directed. When I was much younger, I simply didn't care about where it was directed - I had no brakes for it, it just emerged, so it was always present. With age, it's become more complicated and self-aware and I've tended to try to be more careful about how I engage that intensity (which is a good thing in many ways). Yet, when I'm exercising too much distance/control, it does appear so much like acedia. The fine distinctions made between acedia and depression is important.

Also, I'm curious what you mean about "going nuts". I feel like I am already nuts and I'm just trying to reign it in all these years.

If you have any further resources for the quandary from your investigations and experience with Ni-doms, I'd appreciate it!

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yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #6 · May 12, 2022

Squirt said:
Though not the intended recipient, this is helpful for me, as well. Hope it is okay to side-track a little, but maybe yew would benefit, as well.

You're right about using certain "interests" as a barrier but also a way to maintain a connection with life (resulting in that telescopic/microscopic lens). If the "interest" becomes lost, the connection severs, and it's like there is no recourse. What gets most frustrating is the inability to control the drive behind it. Sort of like... I can't will that intensity of focus into existence again... and when that intensity reappears (often from the subconscious, I've noticed), I can't control where it is directed. When I was much younger, I simply didn't care about where it was directed - I had no brakes for it, it just emerged, so it was always present. With age, it's become more complicated and self-aware and I've tended to try to be more careful about how I engage that intensity (which is a good thing in many ways). Yet, when I'm exercising too much distance/control, it does appear so much like acedia. The fine distinctions made between acedia and depression is important.

Also, I'm curious what you mean about "going nuts". I feel like I am already nuts and I'm just trying to reign it in all these years. If you have any further resources for the quandary from your investigations and experience with Ni-doms, I'd appreciate it!

You're right about with age I have been more self aware and kinda steer away from the intensity. But it's the vivid days full of intensity of passion that I just miss in my childhood. Now I have more free time, but still feel like I have no enough time doing my interest but really it's because I'm not that passionate anymore and take things at face value more than ever now.

Kinda happy if it means my Se is developing though.

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yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 12, 2022

JimT said:
Still in your twenties? No, that's kind of young to be having a mid-life crisis. Usually mid-life crises happen in one's forties or fifties. So never mind about mid-life crisis.

Here's a different idea: I've noticed something that I like to call "Ni-Dom acedia."

Basically Ni-Doms tend to keep a certain amount of distance between themselves and life. When something interests them, they back off and study it as though through a telescope or microscope. But over time, their habit of "distancing" themselves from life results in a sense of being disconnected from life, adrift, and rudderless. It results in a kind of torpor and acedia. See the Wikipedia article on "Acedia" for a description. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia

It can happen at any time in an Ni-Dom's life. But it can also culminate in a massive mid-life crisis later in life if not addressed. I've seen some Ni-Doms really go a little nuts later in life due to this kind of thing.

Anyway, check out that "acedia" article and see what you think of that as a "diagnosis." (I'm not a shrink.)

I don't think it is acedia though

But the thing with Ni-Dom keep a certain amount of distance from the world is true for me. I can never get my mind nor my hands on the real world, literally speaking. There has to be a barrier of some sort that become a bridge between me and the reality I am in such as having a long-term plan while speaking to someone or doing an assignment.

Reactions: 1

JimT

· #8 · May 13, 2022 (Edited)

Sorry I took a while to get back to this thread. I have some stuff going on IRL. Also, please forgive typos and unclear points in the post below; I'm typing fast and describing things casually and hastily.

Anyway, I don't have Ni in my top four functions. So maybe I should talk about my conception of how Ni works, and then I can relate that to the acedia idea.

How iNtuition works in general

N is generally about taking a big-picture view of things. That means juxtaposing multiple elements and finding associations.

To compare N to S:

N is about association, whereas S is about differentiation. N is about putting things together and seeing the big picture, whereas S is about taking things apart and spotting the differences in the details of things.

This means that N-users "float above" the world in order to see the big picture. IOW, they are the opposite of S-users, who get close up to the world and focus on the details. Or to put it another way: N-users in general dislike details (due to S-Inferior), so they end up floating above things, as though refusing to interact with life.

Jung explains the difference by saying that iNtuition is by nature an internal process: Juxtaposing things & looking for associations is done internally in the sense that associations are something you generate internally. Meanwhile, Sensing is by nature an external process: To sense things you have to focus on the details of the external world around you.

Ne external association vs Ni internal association

Both Ne-Doms and Ni-Doms do this thing of floating above the world, juxtaposing related things, and looking for associations. The difference is that Ne-Doms do this in the outer world (the "object"), while Ni-Doms do it in their internal world (the "subject").

The end result: Ne is about immersion, while Ni is about distancing.

Ne immersion

The way that Ne immersion works is pretty simple to explain. Ne-Doms focus on the "object" (things in the outer world). As Jung described it, Ne-Doms (and all extraverts in general) move outward toward external things (the object) and merge with them. The result is that Ne-Doms are voracious gluttons of life. They consume experience to the point of sadomasochism. Their motto is, "Don't bother me with the details. Just let me dive in."

However, this focus on external associations results in a weird opposition: Ne-Doms float above the world, but at the same time they immerse themselves in the world. To repeat what I said above: Jung said that iNtuition is by nature an internal process: IOW, juxtaposing & looking for associations is done internally. But Ne-Doms are simultaneously turned outward, hence immersion in the world around them. It gives them an "internal + external" orientation. So it gives Ne-Doms this dual quality of being both separated from the world and immersed in it at the same time. Hence the stereotype of Ne-Doms hopping from one enthusiasm to the next: They love a new experience (immersion), but at the same time they tire of things quickly and move on quickly to the next (floating).

Ne immersion taken to the extreme

When taken to the extreme, Ne immersion can become a "prison" of sorts. When Extraverts become extreme in their orientation, they become alienated from the "subject" (their own internal ideas, thoughts, and perspectives), and they end up spending their lives chasing around trying to find novelty and identity in the outer world (the "object"). If they take Ne-Dom to the extreme of being one-sided and having little or no internal world, then they may turn into sensation-seekers. They may "merge" with things in the outer world to the point that they cease to have an identity of their own. At that point they are basically just "mirroring" what's happening around them: They may just parrot and reflect the ideas and opinions and perspectives of the people around them.

When taken to that extreme, Ne-Doms are no longer connecting with their own inner world, and they end up having to chase around in the outer world to get a sense of identity and anchor. It can put them in the position of having to play the clown with other people to keep them entertained and engaged.

Also, another facet of Ne-Dom taken to the extreme: Ne-Doms can be depressive. They are fascinated by the external world (the "object"), but because they are such gluttons for novelty they can become overwhelmed by it. The outer world becomes burdensome and stressful. Under stress, Ne-Doms can feel that the world is oppressive, leaning down on them, about to collapse on top of them. I've seen it defined by the term "weltschmerz." Look up that term in Wikipedia. I'm of the opinion that many of the writers of world-level horror stories and gothic/romantic/decadent literature are Ne-Doms. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz

Ni Distancing

By comparison, Ni-Doms engage in distancing.

As Jung described it, Ni-Doms (and all Introverts in general) pull external things inward and incorporate those external things into pre-existing idea complexes inside their heads. IOW, they connect with external things (the "object") via the process of pulling them inward and incorporating them in their internal world (the "subject").

This results in a "double-internal" orientation for Ni-Doms. As described above, iNtuition is by nature an internal process, IOW, juxtaposing & looking for associations is done internally. And on top of that, Ni-Doms take external things and internalize them for processing. So whereas Ne-Doms have an "internal + external" orientation (see above), Ni-Doms have an "internal + internal" orientation. The result is a lot of "distance" from life.

Jung said that this give NI-Doms a "brain-in-a-jar" approach to life. Jung says that Ni-Doms are focused on their internal idea complexes, which are tied to the collective unconscious and archetypes. Ni-Doms only tend to notice things in the outer world that associate well with their internal idea complexes; such things can inspire a feeling of "numinosity" (almost religious reverence) in the Ni-Dom. So the Ni-Dom studies them and incorporates them into his internal world.

But aside from those occasional "numinous" items, the outer world is of little consequence to the Ni-Dom. And even those "numinous" items in the outer world tend to be held at bay and studied as though through a telescope or microscope until the Ni-Dom can identify how to incorporate them in his internal idea complexes.

When taken to the extreme, Ni-Dom can become a "prison" of sorts. When Introverts become extreme in their orientation, their inner world becomes so fascinating to them that they devalue the outer world down to nothing. They become alienated from the anything outside their head: They can spend their lives wrapped up in contemplation of their internal world (the subject) to the exclusion of the outer world (the object).

Jung describes this process in Psychological Types: Jung says that as the Ni-user becomes increasingly one-sided, he gets overly involved with his internal vision, becomes unintelligible to the rest of the world, and becomes kind of a "prophet in the wilderness."

Finally, this process of going to extremes and becoming overly involved in one's internal world to the exclusion of the outer world can result in what I called "acedia" in my previous post. It's the Ni-Dom's analog to Ne-Dom "weltschmerz"...

However, this post is running long, so let me stop here. Sometime in the next 24 hours, I'll post a few more ideas about acedia and why I associate it specifically with Ni-Dom. Meantime, people can comment on the ideas I've posted so far on Ne-Dom and Ni-Dom.

To wrap up: Keep in mind that I'm not a shrink, I'm just an amateur. I'm just describing my own understanding of how the cognitive functions operate. So take what you like and disregard the rest.

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thesleepybean

· #9 · May 13, 2022

yewduyou said:
I do have a dream company I haven't gotten to but maybe I should just enjoy this moment of working obvious job and seize the moment

Might sound cheesy, but Jung would probably say focus too much on your strengths and they become your weaknesses, and whenever you feel like you're cruising it often pays to check your thinking in this regard, and kudos it sounds like that's what you're starting to do.

With respect to functions and life stages, I don't have much to add about Ni except that I think you'll find you'll continue to draw on it more and more as you move into your 30s. My question though would be about Fe. You probably have more freedom in your early-mid 20s than at any other time in your life to give expression and form to your Fe self. How has that gone?

yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #10 · May 14, 2022

JimT said:
Sorry I took a while to get back to this thread. I have some stuff going on IRL. Also, please forgive typos and unclear points in the post below; I'm typing fast and describing things casually and hastily.

Anyway, I don't have Ni in my top four functions. So maybe I should talk about my conception of how Ni works, and then I can relate that to the acedia idea.

How iNtuition works in general

N is generally about taking a big-picture view of things. That means juxtaposing multiple elements and finding associations.

To compare N to S:

N is about association, whereas S is about differentiation. N is about putting things together and seeing the big picture, whereas S is about taking things apart and spotting the differences in the details of things.

This means that N-users "float above" the world in order to see the big picture. IOW, they are the opposite of S-users, who get close up to the world and focus on the details. Or to put it another way: N-users in general dislike details (due to S-Inferior), so they end up floating above things, as though refusing to interact with life.

Jung explains the difference by saying that iNtuition is by nature an internal process: Juxtaposing things & looking for associations is done internally in the sense that associations are something you generate internally. Meanwhile, Sensing is by nature an external process: To sense things you have to focus on the details of the external world around you.

Ne external association vs Ni internal association

Both Ne-Doms and Ni-Doms do this thing of floating above the world, juxtaposing related things, and looking for associations. The difference is that Ne-Doms do this in the outer world (the "object"), while Ni-Doms do it in their internal world (the "subject").

The end result: Ne is about immersion, while Ni is about distancing.

Ne immersion

The way that Ne immersion works is pretty simple to explain. Ne-Doms focus on the "object" (things in the outer world). As Jung described it, Ne-Doms (and all extraverts in general) move outward toward external things (the object) and merge with them. The result is that Ne-Doms are voracious gluttons of life. They consume experience to the point of sadomasochism. Their motto is, "Don't bother me with the details. Just let me dive in."

However, this focus on external associations results in a weird opposition: Ne-Doms float above the world, but at the same time they immerse themselves in the world. To repeat what I said above: Jung said that iNtuition is by nature an internal process: IOW, juxtaposing & looking for associations is done internally. But Ne-Doms are simultaneously turned outward, hence immersion in the world around them. It gives them an "internal + external" orientation. So it gives Ne-Doms this dual quality of being both separated from the world and immersed in it at the same time. Hence the stereotype of Ne-Doms hopping from one enthusiasm to the next: They love a new experience (immersion), but at the same time they tire of things quickly and move on quickly to the next (floating).

Ne immersion taken to the extreme

When taken to the extreme, Ne immersion can become a "prison" of sorts. When Extraverts become extreme in their orientation, they become alienated from the "subject" (their own internal ideas, thoughts, and perspectives), and they end up spending their lives chasing around trying to find novelty and identity in the outer world (the "object"). If they take Ne-Dom to the extreme of being one-sided and having little or no internal world, then they may turn into sensation-seekers. They may "merge" with things in the outer world to the point that they cease to have an identity of their own. At that point they are basically just "mirroring" what's happening around them: They may just parrot and reflect the ideas and opinions and perspectives of the people around them.

When taken to that extreme, Ne-Doms are no longer connecting with their own inner world, and they end up having to chase around in the outer world to get a sense of identity and anchor. It can put them in the position of having to play the clown with other people to keep them entertained and engaged.

Also, another facet of Ne-Dom taken to the extreme: Ne-Doms can be depressive. They are fascinated by the external world (the "object"), but because they are such gluttons for novelty they can become overwhelmed by it. The outer world becomes burdensome and stressful. Under stress, Ne-Doms can feel that the world is oppressive, leaning down on them, about to collapse on top of them. I've seen it defined by the term "weltschmerz." Look up that term in Wikipedia. I'm of the opinion that many of the writers of world-level horror stories and gothic/romantic/decadent literature are Ne-Doms. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltschmerz

Ni Distancing

By comparison, Ni-Doms engage in distancing.

As Jung described it, Ni-Doms (and all Introverts in general) pull external things inward and incorporate those external things into pre-existing idea complexes inside their heads. IOW, they connect with external things (the "object") via the process of pulling them inward and incorporating them in their internal world (the "subject").

This results in a "double-internal" orientation for Ni-Doms. As described above, iNtuition is by nature an internal process, IOW, juxtaposing & looking for associations is done internally. And on top of that, Ni-Doms take external things and internalize them for processing. So whereas Ne-Doms have an "internal + external" orientation (see above), Ni-Doms have an "internal + internal" orientation. The result is a lot of "distance" from life.

Jung said that this give NI-Doms a "brain-in-a-jar" approach to life. Jung says that Ni-Doms are focused on their internal idea complexes, which are tied to the collective unconscious and archetypes. Ni-Doms only tend to notice things in the outer world that associate well with their internal idea complexes; such things can inspire a feeling of "numinosity" (almost religious reverence) in the Ni-Dom. So the Ni-Dom studies them and incorporates them into his internal world.

But aside from those occasional "numinous" items, the outer world is of little consequence to the Ni-Dom. And even those "numinous" items in the outer world tend to be held at bay and studied as though through a telescope or microscope until the Ni-Dom can identify how to incorporate them in his internal idea complexes.

When taken to the extreme, Ni-Dom can become a "prison" of sorts. When Introverts become extreme in their orientation, their inner world becomes so fascinating to them that they devalue the outer world down to nothing. They become alienated from the anything outside their head: They can spend their lives wrapped up in contemplation of their internal world (the subject) to the exclusion of the outer world (the object).

Jung describes this process in Psychological Types: Jung says that as the Ni-user becomes increasingly one-sided, he gets overly involved with his internal vision, becomes unintelligible to the rest of the world, and becomes kind of a "prophet in the wilderness."

Finally, this process of going to extremes and becoming overly involved in one's internal world to the exclusion of the outer world can result in what I called "acedia" in my previous post. It's the Ni-Dom's analog to Ne-Dom "weltschmerz"...

However, this post is running long, so let me stop here. Sometime in the next 24 hours, I'll post a few more ideas about acedia and why I associate it specifically with Ni-Dom. Meantime, people can comment on the ideas I've posted so far on Ne-Dom and Ni-Dom.

To wrap up: Keep in mind that I'm not a shrink, I'm just an amateur. I'm just describing my own understanding of how the cognitive functions operate. So take what you like and disregard the rest.

Oh yeah I get it now.
Still don't think it's acedia. I have no big problem eventhough I can feel that I am floating above or even distancing myself from reality. I quite like the experience and actually prefer that way, so it is still within my control.
I think that's what's important is when this kind of things is still in my control. I do miss details or moments sometimes, but it's not something extra valuable for me so I didn't feel like I'm losing things.

What I need is that immersing experience BUT in a big picture style. So it's actually spread out and in the real moment, it only manifest in little dosis that I can still control.

yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #11 · May 14, 2022

thesleepybean said:
Might sound cheesy, but Jung would probably say focus too much on your strengths and they become your weaknesses, and whenever you feel like you're cruising it often pays to check your thinking in this regard, and kudos it sounds like that's what you're starting to do.

With respect to functions and life stages, I don't have much to add about Ni except that I think you'll find you'll continue to draw on it more and more as you move into your 30s. My question though would be about Fe. You probably have more freedom in your early-mid 20s than at any other time in your life to give expression and form to your Fe self. How has that gone?

My early mid 20? It's full of depression actually. I have to finish my final paper to pass the college and after that I'm still jobless without any intuitive parents who wants to listen to me rambling about philosophical things or a what if business idea. They're pretty closed minded.
So the experience actually giving me IDGAF attitude to the world now for I was feeling abandoned and ignored for 2 whole years that is a contrast to my people pleaser behaviour in my teens. So there's positive and negative of it.

How am I gonna draw on Ni more as move into my 30s exactly?

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JimT

· #12 · May 14, 2022 (Edited)

Just to finish up my ideas on how Ni-Doms operate, and how acedia arises:

As I said earlier, iNtuition is about association. I've heard it said that Ni-Doms in particular like to take lots of related themes and try to spin them together like a spiderweb in their minds, creating a master plan for action, complete with lots of alternate plans and back-up plans in case the main plan doesn't work. Hence the stereotype of the Ni-Dom plotting to take over the world.

Then you throw in what I said earlier about "numinosity," or finding an echo or association between something very personal in their unconscious and some idea or concept in the outer world. And the result is a sense of association, big picture, and deep meaning, as though the fates had decreed a certain path for the Ni-Dom. As a result, Ni-Doms can devote themselves heart and soul to a certain path or undertaking or career.

But Ni-Doms achieve this big-picture oversight by means of distancing themselves from the world and floating above it in order to see that big picture. That "distancing" and floating can work against the Ni-Dom over time, by draining meaning out of the very things that felt so meaningful to the Ni-Dom at first.

"Distancing" leaves the Ni-Dom feeling remote and out of touch over time. Hence, with Ni-Doms there seems to be a tension between the need to find deep meaning in things, and then losing that meaning to the point that life begins to seem empty and absurd.

As for how that relates to acedia:

The acedia article in Wikipedia doesn't really capture this tension (between meaning and meaninglessness) all that well. It generally describes acedia as a kind of general depression and lassitude. But some of the references in the article equate acedia with a kind of "loss of meaning" in life. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acedia

For example, the article associates acedia with the writers Chekhov and Beckett.
--Chekhov is known for stories about men who achieve positions of power and fame but then find their lives meaningless; they thrash about in the traps they have created for themselves and desire to escape and be free again.
--Beckett is known for plays about the meaninglessness of life. His most famous play, "Waiting for Godot," is about two characters who sit around waiting for someone named Godot to come and give their life meaning and a mission. Messengers keep showing up and saying that Godot will be arriving soon. But Godot never arrives.

The Desert Fathers
The Wikipedia article on acedia also associates acedia heavily with monastic church practices and makes several references to the "Desert Fathers." The story of the Desert Fathers is about early monks and ascetics in the first two or three centuries of Christianity fleeing and distancing and escaping from Rome and going into the desert and wastelands in order to seek out peace and contemplation and find meaning in life. Once there, however, that meaning tended to disappear in the deprivations and boredom of life in the desert.

In "Symbols of Transformation," Jung writes at some length about the story of the Desert Fathers. He says it transformed both Christianity and the Western World as a whole. Prior to the Desert Fathers, life and culture and religion were largely communal and tribal. The flight of the Desert Fathers introduced into Western thought the ideas of asceticism, intellectualism, and monastic retreat. But anything taken to extremes tends to result in burn-out. Jung says that balance needs to be found between the extremes of tribal/communal life and distancing/flight. In other books, Jung said that Western man has become so individualistic and intellectual (so "distanced" from his roots) that he now craves community and tribalism again. From that you get the birth of the great collective movements of the 20th century: Fascism and communism. Jung calls them a "recollectivization."

Getting back to individual examples of acedia and how it affects individual lives: I have seen this kind of "loss of meaning" among Ni-Doms in my own life.
--I recall one distinguished INTJ scientist and professor with a distinguished career. Upon retirement, he spent the rest of his life writing collections of woeful, sad, dreary poetry about some love he lost early in life, and how his life has been meaningless ever since.
--I recall an INFJ boss who also had a distinguished career and lots of power and prestige. But one peculiarity in his life was his habit of getting roaring drunk every single Sunday afternoon. Not just a little drunk, but piss-your-pants drunk. And he was religious about it. In many ways, it was the center of his life--it provided meaning. He had an interesting, engaging career, and he didn't drink during the rest of the week. But the thing he really looked forward to in life was those Sunday drinking sessions.
--I recall an INFJ artist who was a hoarder. She started out doing art and showed some genuine talent. But as the years progressed, the art increasingly became an excuse for hoarding art supplies and the work of other artists, and eventually her life became all about the hoarding. She produced little or no art. Instead, she spent her life maneuvering and picking through piles of trash and clutter that were almost up to the ceiling in some places.

In the above cases, I suspect that these Ni-Doms found their lives emptying of meaning, and so they turned to a kind of obsessive-compulsive Ne immersion as a way to provide new goals. But they were so bad at it (the need for Ne immersion arose from their unconscious in "daemonic" form) that it ended up ruining their lives as much as the previous Ni meaninglessness.

Just to wrap up: This is all pretty heavy psychological stuff, of course. And the OP has already gone on record saying that he/she doesn't think it's a question of acedia.

On the other hand, the OP does talk about the need to find a balance between Ni distancing and Ne immersion. And I think that's ultimately the key: Be more deliberate and conscious in seeking ways to engage Ne immersion as a preventive measure, that is, as a way to ward off meaninglessness due to excessive Ni distancing.

I'll stop there. Again, I'm not a shrink; I'm just brainstorming based on how I see Ni-Dom operating around me.

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thesleepybean

· #13 · May 14, 2022

yewduyou said:
How am I gonna draw on Ni more as move into my 30s exactly?

Ni's speciality is seeing possibilities - new ways forward in what you are doing at the moment, alternative routes, the path less traveled, or even as @JimT says the 'Desert Fathers' route.

yewduyou said:
My early mid 20? It's full of depression actually. I have to finish my final paper to pass the college and after that I'm still jobless without any intuitive parents who wants to listen to me rambling about philosophical things or a what if business idea. They're pretty closed minded.
So the experience actually giving me IDGAF attitude to the world now for I was feeling abandoned and ignored for 2 whole years that is a contrast to my people pleaser behaviour in my teens. So there's positive and negative of it.

So in your teens it sounds like you might have been compliant with others expectations, and then that morphed into sadness and frustration in your 20s - both expressions of, and experiences which give shape to, emotional identity. But there's a lot of others which you probably experienced too - adventure, intimacy, etc.

There are by no means set 'stages' I don't think, although it depends who you read, but most people's focus does tend to shift over time. Music is a typical example of Fe expression - only a handful of 'pop stars' endure in creativity and popularity into their 30s.

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Hexigoon

· #14 · May 15, 2022 (Edited)

yewduyou said:
As I get older I feel myself getting more impulsive and doing things when the time comes without thinking much about it.

But I do miss a part of the old me who is working towards the long future and days filled with hope and hard work towards one thing.

For example since I was four my dream is to get into a design institution and days are filled with studying to get ahead of my score to pass elementary, middle and high school so I would get accepted at my dream university while also working on my skill as the designated major which is design.

Now I am working as a graphic designer and as I achieved my long term goal, I just go by days working my 8-4 job and even easily get sick even when I do nothing because maybe I don't have enough strong will as before.

Nothing pressuring me in a good way to have vivid days of imagining going to achieve a long-term goal again.

I do have a dream company I haven't gotten to but maybe I should just enjoy this moment of working obvious job and seize the moment (?) Idk

Or do you have any good suggestion to laid out a big plan again?

So, you feel like the initial high of achieving your long-term goal has worn off and now you're just spinning your wheels thinking "what now?"
You gotta look to the "why?" behind your goals. In other words, the vision. The clarity of the ideal that the goal was meant to serve towards.
Why did you want to join a design university? What compelled this? How would this shape your life going forward once you reached it?
If you've succeeded at your goal of becoming professional in design, then that's fantastic, it's something to be proud of, but you have to ask what your purpose was behind wanting to become a designer.

I think people can mistake having goals for having a vision (an ideal). A goal without vision is a dead end path. You can succeed at any objective, you'll feel a temporary jubilance but eventually you'll wonder "what's next?" if you lacked clarity for what it was all in service of.
I'd even say the best long-term goals to have in life are those that often can't even really be achieved. It's more about reaching for progress than reaching for accomplishment (vs failure).
An ideal you'll strive towards all throughout life knowing you can't reach the heights of idealistic perfection in reality. But you'll find the journey is a worthwhile endeavour regardless.

The first job I ever wanted was to be a novelist - this was as early as six years old - The "why?" behind such goals was very simplistic as a child. Usually it boiled down to "It's fun!" and maybe a little "I want to be admired" as it may have been for you too. Motives can grow more complex with time, and by the time you're an adult this can leave us feeling confused about our goals and what the real purpose is behind them. Why are we really doing what we do? What is the vision?
If I don't know why I want to do something or at least the "why?" isn't strong enough, then it's difficult to feel engaged with objectives and plans. Constructing a plan in my head is more fun to think about often than actually executing it. Such goals like being a novelist feel more like a nice little dream in my head now. If I succeeded at my childhood aims, then it would make me happy for a time, but if the reasoning remained childish and visionless, it'd be like "okay, what now?" once completed.
I feel a need to continue finding and building reasoning for why a job would be meaningful to me and continue being fulfilling long-term. One of the biggest questions that plagues my mind when thinking about goals is "Who even cares? Who am I even doing this for? Really is it just for myself? Why do I even want this?"
I'd say for INFJs, goals and overarching vision need to connect with Fe somehow. Objectives feel empty and aimless if they're not connecting with that.
So, look to how your profession or other future goals serve Fe concerns and connect more to that if you aren't doing so.

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thesleepybean

· #15 · May 17, 2022 (Edited)

Hexigoon said:
l feel a need to continue finding and building reasoning for why a job would be meaningful to me and continue being fulfilling long-term.

Ti often works in tension with Fe, especially in your 20s, usually in the way that society demands you reason out how you will find a job/career, bring about the next generation, and in general become a 'productive member'.

The challenge for feelers in particular is how to incorporate Fe/i into this. And ironically this conflict is how more enduring popular culture usually comes about (you can see Fe/i in the semantics just as you can see Te/i the word generation).

Don't expect it to get any easier after that though, as then you slide into 'manager' mode where you're required to see and and anticipate outcomes in anything and everything. And like Jung says, this can lead you right down the rabbit hole.

Reactions: 1

intranst

· #16 · May 20, 2022

yewduyou said:
My early mid 20? It's full of depression actually. I have to finish my final paper to pass the college and after that I'm still jobless without any intuitive parents who wants to listen to me rambling about philosophical things or a what if business idea. They're pretty closed minded.
So the experience actually giving me IDGAF attitude to the world now for I was feeling abandoned and ignored for 2 whole years that is a contrast to my people pleaser behaviour in my teens. So there's positive and negative of it.

How am I gonna draw on Ni more as move into my 30s exactly?

Unintuitive parents, don't get me started, you have a decent conversation with them only to realize they didn't comprehend anything you said. Might be specific to SJs though since Ni is unvalued.

Society is pretty shit these days, kinda makes you more interested in instant gratification.

Llyralen

· #17 · May 21, 2022

@JimT I think you need to spend more time with us Ne doms. I guess that’s an invitation. Of course Jung wrote the extremes of every type, but how often do you see the kind of extremes he describes for any unhealthy type? I don’t know any ENFPs whose Fi is not developed enough to head off the kind of problems you’re outlining.

@yewduyou. A few thoughts for you.
1. in Dario Nardi’s work he studies MBTI and the brain. He made a couple of observations about middle years. In our middle years if there are parts of us that were part of our early personality that we haven’t gotten to explore— like for instance myself where I went into a science field but love music, then we often start to get to explore those. He also observed that it was common for types to explore our third function. He observed INFJs who wanted to do ISTP stuff. (He told a story about an INFJs who had gone into music but who in mid-life started a business to work on and flip houses. ENFPs would be doing ESTJ stuff (we do… except that I was a manager earlier and didn’t get to do music and art.). I have seen older INFJs here who have started to do more Ti and SP stuff and get more interested in sensory things that they likely would have suppressed earlier in life. I think it’s neat— we get to explore all of us through the years.

I think this is very interesting thread, I wonder how Ni feels when you know you’ve got limited time on earth.

But a new focus can always happen. I am 45 and this year I have lots of new dreams like playing the harp (I’m practicing at least an hour a day— trying to catch up for 45 years of not playing and I’ve always wanted to play harp) and write a book (I’ve got a story being published this year) and forming a small singing group— all happening this year. All happening while I keep my usual job, in my case. My point is— what is it you would like to do? Your business? I believe in you!

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yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #18 · May 29, 2022

Llyralen said:
@JimT I think you need to spend more time with us Ne doms. I guess that’s an invitation. Of course Jung wrote the extremes of every type, but how often do you see the kind of extremes he describes for any unhealthy type? I don’t know any ENFPs whose Fi is not developed enough to head off the kind of problems you’re outlining.

@yewduyou. A few thoughts for you.
1. in Dario Nardi’s work he studies MBTI and the brain. He made a couple of observations about middle years. In our middle years if there are parts of us that were part of our early personality that we haven’t gotten to explore— like for instance myself where I went into a science field but love music, then we often start to get to explore those. He also observed that it was common for types to explore our third function. He observed INFJs who wanted to do ISTP stuff. (He told a story about an INFJs who had gone into music but who in mid-life started a business to work on and flip houses. ENFPs would be doing ESTJ stuff (we do… except that I was a manager earlier and didn’t get to do music and art.). I have seen older INFJs here who have started to do more Ti and SP stuff and get more interested in sensory things that they likely would have suppressed earlier in life. I think it’s neat— we get to explore all of us through the years.

I think this is very interesting thread, I wonder how Ni feels when you know you’ve got limited time on earth.

But a new focus can always happen. I am 45 and this year I have lots of new dreams like playing the harp (I’m practicing at least an hour a day— trying to catch up for 45 years of not playing and I’ve always wanted to play harp) and write a book (I’ve got a story being published this year) and forming a small singing group— all happening this year. All happening while I keep my usual job, in my case. My point is— what is it you would like to do? Your business? I believe in you!

About the INFJ doing more SP stuff I agree with that, or is it because I just have more free time with my job not being that difficult? I have a perfume small business while doing my usual job, it's also happened not because I planned it how the small business gonna go, I just feel like making it and I made it, I'll learn along the way.

My Ni feels kinda distressed actually, for not planning through my small business like what if it become 3 years and no development because of lack of planning, also what if I don't get better job after 3 years in my current job, now I really do feel that time is limited.
But I wanted to do side businesses rather than reaching for the highest career like I did when I reached the highest university in my town.

Wow, you've lived a beautiful life for 45 years and still going beautiful with your achievements this year. So admirable !

yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #19 · May 29, 2022

Llyralen said:
@JimT I think you need to spend more time with us Ne doms. I guess that’s an invitation. Of course Jung wrote the extremes of every type, but how often do you see the kind of extremes he describes for any unhealthy type? I don’t know any ENFPs whose Fi is not developed enough to head off the kind of problems you’re outlining.

@yewduyou. A few thoughts for you.
1. in Dario Nardi’s work he studies MBTI and the brain. He made a couple of observations about middle years. In our middle years if there are parts of us that were part of our early personality that we haven’t gotten to explore— like for instance myself where I went into a science field but love music, then we often start to get to explore those. He also observed that it was common for types to explore our third function. He observed INFJs who wanted to do ISTP stuff. (He told a story about an INFJs who had gone into music but who in mid-life started a business to work on and flip houses. ENFPs would be doing ESTJ stuff (we do… except that I was a manager earlier and didn’t get to do music and art.). I have seen older INFJs here who have started to do more Ti and SP stuff and get more interested in sensory things that they likely would have suppressed earlier in life. I think it’s neat— we get to explore all of us through the years.

I think this is very interesting thread, I wonder how Ni feels when you know you’ve got limited time on earth.

But a new focus can always happen. I am 45 and this year I have lots of new dreams like playing the harp (I’m practicing at least an hour a day— trying to catch up for 45 years of not playing and I’ve always wanted to play harp) and write a book (I’ve got a story being published this year) and forming a small singing group— all happening this year. All happening while I keep my usual job, in my case. My point is— what is it you would like to do? Your business? I believe in you!

About the INFJ doing more SP stuff I agree with that, or is it because I just have more free time with my job not being that difficult? I have a perfume small business while doing my usual job, it's also happened not because I planned it how the small business gonna go, I just feel like making it and I made it, I'll learn along the way.

My Ni feels kinda distressed actually, for not planning through my small business like what if it become 3 years and no development because of lack of planning, also what if I don't get better job after 3 years in my current job, now I really do feel that time is limited.
But I wanted to do side businesses rather than reaching for the highest career like I did when I reached the highest university in my town.

Wow, you've lived a beautiful life for 45 years and still going beautiful with your achievements this year. So admirable !

yewduyou

Discussion Starter · #20 · May 29, 2022

intranst said:
Unintuitive parents, don't get me started, you have a decent conversation with them only to realize they didn't comprehend anything you said. Might be specific to SJs though since Ni is unvalued.

Society is pretty shit these days, kinda makes you more interested in instant gratification.

And they instantly discarded it too, like Oh my God. If it can't be done now, it's rendered as useless now.
But I make my father take a truity test and it got him INFP. It just still baffled me if it is other's idea, he suddenly got to SJ mode. But he has pretty unrealistic ideas too that he usually talk with me.
Maybe after people get older they become the opposite of their type.

But I also learned that talking about philosophical things don't make money in life. And without money, I can't do spontaneous shopping and other inferior Se behaviour I recently love to do.

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