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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I posted this on a completely unrelated forum, and then realized that it would be a good idea as well to post it on the forum where people can actually verify if my perception of MBTI types is accurate. The subject is how INFJs tend towards a black-and-white view of sexuality, leading to insecurity and extremism. Here is, more or less, what I said on that forum:

INFJs are infamous for their aversion to sexuality. People with INFJ personality type often have a black-and-white view of sex, either becoming secretly promiscuous or (more likely) torturing themselves for having sexual feelings. Here are some examples of INFJs that struggled with this issue:

Judge Claude Frollo from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame:
during the song "Hellfire," [link to video] Frollo sees choirs of priests chanting mea culpa, Latin for "my fault," implying that his apparent self-righteousness hides deep feelings of guilt and self-loathing. He comes to lust for the beautiful Esmeralda, but even blames his own lust for her on witchcraft and the devil rather than accept that he himself is committing crimes and sins. His lust drives him murderously insane, which ultimately proves to be his downfall...[W]hen he belives his lust for Esmeralda to be turning him to sin he is partially right because it is this that makes him murderous and unfair towards the other people, arresting two families and killing one just because they wouldn't give him Esmeralda.
Mohandas Gandhi:
[Ghandhi] despised his father for giving in to his own carnal urges and became determined to control his own. From the outset, he claimed that he never wanted to get married - he was taken out of school for a year to prepare for the event, and thought it a total waste of money...For the rest of his life, Gandhi remained angry with his father for marrying him off while he was a child...on his wedding night, he and Kasturba (affectionately called Ba) were far too shy to face each other. Yet, having been told the facts of life by his brother's wife, the couple seem to have had no trouble consummating their relationship. Thereafter, Gandhi never tired of complaining that they had such an active sex life that there was no time for what he would have much preferred to do - which was to educate the illiterate Kasturba. 'I am sure that, had my love for her been absolutely untainted by lust, she would be a learned lady today,' he said. But it was what happened on the night his father died that marked him forever. Gandhi, then 16, left the sick old man's bedside in order to rush home to make love to Kasturba and thereafter, he could never forgive himself for having been in the grip of lust when his father breathed his last. To make matters worse, his wife was pregnant at the time - and the child did not survive - leaving Gandhi tortured by guilt. By the time he went to London to study law in 1888, Gandhi had sworn a puritanical oath to touch neither wine nor meat, as well as women.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr:
Sexually, MLK led one of the most astonishing double lives in history. A separate life so at odds with his public image, it’s no wonder that it’s vanished down the old memory hole; The cognitive dissonance is almost brain damaging. It should also increase one’s appreciation for sex’s ability to overrule every other sense including that of self preservation. Considering that Dr. King’s moral authority rested to a large extent on his status as a religious figure any revelation that he was cheating on his wife at all would have been extremely damaging to his reputation never mind multiple sex partners. And the galling hypocrisy of a man who had successfully staked his reputation on non-violent resistance punching out a jealous female lover for mouthing off...would have been an absolutely devastating public relations disaster.
A friend of mine, as recounted by his ESTP girlfriend when asked about the subject (summarized from memory):
He definitely has that view, too. Normally he's like "Don't touch me!" and won't even do hugs, but when he gets high, he is completely sex-crazed and sex is all he wants from me. It's kinda freaky.
Me:
I tend to have a burning hatred for anyone or anything that I am sexually attracted to, which is why I tend to avoid sexual content and humor on the Internet and in general like the plague. However, when I get into a very angry or "horny" mood (what's the difference?), I scheme to take out that anger on others who freely enjoy pornographic content. I have compiled a list of almost one hundred Facebook pages that post pornographic content and, should I so choose, I could report every single one of those pages to the Facebook moderators for breaking Facebook's Terms and Conditions regarding posting nudity and thereby ruin thousands of peoples' days and cause general widespread unhappiness. At this point, I have no clue whether or not I will actually go through with this plan--I sure as hell hope not; it's downright evil. To be fair, though, I have been angry a lot more in the past six months due to depression, so that may have warped my mindset more than it was before.





Anyway, here is my general question to any INFJ reading this: Does the idea of INFJs being especially insecure about their own sexual feelings seem consistent with your perceptions of how INFJs act and your own personal experience(s) with the matter? Or do Frollo, Dr. King, Ghandhi, my friend and I all just have really really unhealthy Se functions?
 

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I can definitely relate to it – the dichotomy of abstaining like crazy, or having crazy sexual thoughts and/or intentions.

Usually, I am extremely aware of anything possibly sexual, or even just sensual. I do not like being touched in any way before having considered it. A surprise-hug from someone just catches me off guard and makes me very uncomfortable, to the point of becoming legitimately angry.

On the other hand, I lately have been studying BDSM and its terminology, practices, dynamics. I find it to be very interesting, but I still view it more as a theoretical subject than a practical one. Even though I even toy with the idea of one day practicing parts of it myself, I am still on the edge about it.

My sexuality can really be described as hot or cold – it just cannot be lukewarm, there is no middle ground. I have to say, I am "cold" most times, while knowing I could possibly turn "hot" and burn everything to the ground.

At least my view on porn has become more neutral. I personally just cannot watch it for the life of me – but I do not dismiss people who do, even if I don't approve of it.


P.S: I think Ghandi is indeed INFJ, but Frollo seems rather INFP, and Martin Luther King Jr. ENFJ. I suppose we Idealists as a whole struggle with the carnal.
 

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Sounds pretty much spot on. I think this might be a draw of some INFJ to religion, too, even though it's paradoxical from my perspective. I have an INFJ friend who I couldn't understand, and even doubted her being INFJ, just on account of how overwhelmingly religious she is. But then I realize how well it plays into her whole masochistic shunning of sex and "all that is evil" thing she has going on in her head. It's very interesting to me.
 

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I am very sexual myself, but I am like that naive sexual girl, something like that. Not because it's a role I play, but I am like the OP said, black and white in this issue.

I already talk about me not feeling good about pyshic touch by friends, family etc, I found it very awkward and I only hug when I feel it we are into a deep thing. I don't also look like a sexual girl neither, but when it comes to sex with the person I am in love, or I am in a kind of relationship it's like "Woah!":laughing: It's all the opposite.


Lately I been reading that this is the result of our inferior Se, I doubted about this but it also makes a lot of sense. A lot of times people told me that the best way to be more focus in the present and be down to earth is the sex. So, getting very sexual while experiencing Se in sex can make an INFJ very "savage".
 

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I dont really relate to this. I'm actually quite sexually secure. My thing I think I can always make the act better, so there is no settling.
 

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Well, I don't relate either. I'm asexual and ever since I came across the term I was like "yeah, that's me" and never doubted it. But I'm definitely sex-positive in the sense that I'm not in any way bothered by others doing it or it being on media all the time (as long it's not heavy porn or violent). In general I'm not bothered if someone had sexual feeling for me either, just sad if it was someone close and it would come in the way of our relationship, because I know I'd be really repulsed if I had to participate in something sexual myself. I don't have any aversion to touch in general though.

I think the black-and-white thing describes unhealthy functions in general, the more extreme the blacks and whites are, the unhealthier. Of course, if the person sees no problem with the extremes then it may not be unhealthy... but if the extremes do cause trouble in life, then yeah, it could be considered unhealthy.

I don't think I relate to black-and-white or extreme Se in other ways either, so I guess I've developed it pretty well.
 

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I'm huge on self acceptance and refuse to allow myself to feel guilty for any thoughts or desires I may have. In fact, I see it as a vessel worthy of exploration to grasp a deeper understanding of it.

I always say, there's something fascinating about someone overtaken with a seemingly obsessive state, lustful or otherwise, that I can't help, but be drawn to. In a romantic relationship this delves so much further and the thought of 2 people, free of seemingly all distractions, just fixated on one another is such an exhilarating experience.

There are various forms of sexual intimacy which I have varying opinions on, but I'm always looking towards the absolute pinnacle of what it can be.
 

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I pretty much want to be asexual. I think being sexual is the last primal aspects of myself I must transcend. After killing the animal in me I'm free to become something else that's 'not-animal'. I view sexual needs as parasitic..but I've never succeeded in eliminating sexual desire.
That's the rationale behind Gandhi's "sex experiments" with his nieces and other women in his flock. Gandhi was one creepy dude.

I used to think that way (your way, not Gandhi's blatant hypocrisy). To the extreme. Nothing at all good comes out of it. Your other pursuits (which you deem to be above or beyond the animal flesh) are in fact equally as meaningless/meaningful, useless/useful, irrational/rational as your sex drive. You have no moral obligation to transcend sexuality. It is not an objectively inferior pursuit. Despising sexuality is just as absurd as indulging it. So give up on the idea that this one desire you have is unworthy of you.

Hating, rejecting, and changing your fundamental nature is what's self destructive. Discard this mind/flesh, this animal/transcendent dichotomy. All of your desires, every one of them, is animal, is irrational. And there's nothing wrong with that. Shunning or "transcending" sexuality is not a step forward in evolution. In fact, it makes you an evolutionary dead end (oh god is that why INFJ males are so rare? we're selected against?).

My point isn't that you should dive in to hedonism and promiscuity. Far from it. I'm pretty sure some measure of chastity is one of our emotional functions; we seem drawn to it and even possibly to enjoy it in some masochistic way. So, again, I don't advise we outright reject this part of ourselves either. We have conflicting desires; that's okay, people are complicated. Just don't hate either side. Don't view it as black and white. Call off the crusade and most importantly don't trick yourself into believing that some of your desires are more rational, evolved, or objectively superior than others.
 

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I don't really relate..I can't say I'm insecure, but I'm practically a prude; asexual of sorts. In marriage or out of it, I'll only have sex with someone I truly love. I don't like the idea of sleeping around, and I don't like other people doing it either. I have this expectation for people to stick to their morals and subdue their desires and only act on it when it's in good taste (and for me, have sex when you truly like someone, not when you're just horny). I also have this expectation for gays not to sleep with women, ever. I have a bad impression on people who do
 

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That's the rationale behind Gandhi's "sex experiments" with his nieces and other women in his flock. Gandhi was one creepy dude.

I used to think that way (your way, not Gandhi's blatant hypocrisy). To the extreme. Nothing at all good comes out of it. Your other pursuits (which you deem to be above or beyond the animal flesh) are in fact equally as meaningless/meaningful, useless/useful, irrational/rational as your sex drive. You have no moral obligation to transcend sexuality. It is not an objectively inferior pursuit. Despising sexuality is just as absurd as indulging it. So give up on the idea that this one desire you have is unworthy of you.

Hating, rejecting, and changing your fundamental nature is what's self destructive. Discard this mind/flesh, this animal/transcendent dichotomy. All of your desires, every one of them, is animal, is irrational. And there's nothing wrong with that. Shunning or "transcending" sexuality is not a step forward in evolution. In fact, it makes you an evolutionary dead end (oh god is that why INFJ males are so rare? we're selected against?).

My point isn't that you should dive in to hedonism and promiscuity. Far from it. I'm pretty sure some measure of chastity is one of our emotional functions; we seem drawn to it and even possibly to enjoy it in some masochistic way. So, again, I don't advise we outright reject this part of ourselves either. We have conflicting desires; that's okay, people are complicated. Just don't hate either side. Don't view it as black and white. Call off the crusade and most importantly don't trick yourself into believing that some of your desires are more rational, evolved, or objectively superior than others.
I want to second this post. There is so much wisdom to be found in it.
I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that an INFJ should embrace both sides of them, the carnal and the mind, possibly even making them a whole, reminiscent of Yin and Yang in some sense.
 

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I have to admit I can relate to a degree, I've always pictured myself as only wanting to have sex with a person I am in a loving relationship in (which has been the case so far) but there are moments of what I can only describe as extreme lust during which the only thing going through my mind is having casual sex with as many people as possible. Usually it ends with me drinking too much, asking myself "what the fuck am I even doing?" and heading back home. It usually makes me feel guilty but to be honest that facet of me doesn't really bother me as much as it used to, it's still a pretty bad state to be in as I get all kinds of anxious and start to lose a bit of control over myself (which I absolutely hate).
 

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I always thought my own struggles in the past with anything sex related had more to do with low self-esteem than anything else. Talking to my INFJ husband about it, it seems like his own sexual struggles (or whatever you want to call it) were very much conditioned from early experiences as well. As far as sex as a whole goes, my view is basically: quality > quantity.

My husband always says that if something happened to us where we could no longer have sex, it wouldn't really matter. He just enjoys being with me and I guess that's what he enjoys the most about sex too. I pretty much agree with that. I hate how overrated sex is. I think it's fun and a lovely way to bond but it's not worth my life and I don't feel like I'm a slave to my impulses. It's temporary pleasure. But I suppose you could say that is an INFJ thing? I'm not sure. I think it's a personal thing. We all have different views.
 

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I totally get this. I hate almost all physical touch in general, from boys to grandmothers; everything body-related makes me uncomfortable.
I've avoided getting into relationships because I see couples in the hallways holding hands or having their arms around each other or kissing and it turns me off in a way. Purely physical relationships kind of disgust me. I don't shun sex or any of that, but at this point in my life I certainly don't see myself doing any sort of it in the future. Since I'm young, I often wonder whether it's youth-related, asexuality-related, or type-related...
 
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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I totally get this. I hate almost all physical touch in general, from boys to grandmothers; everything body-related makes me uncomfortable.
I've avoided getting into relationships because I see couples in the hallways holding hands or having their arms around each other or kissing and it turns me off in a way. Purely physical relationships kind of disgust me. I don't shun sex or any of that, but at this point in my life I certainly don't see myself doing any sort of it in the future. Since I'm young, I often wonder whether it's youth-related, asexuality-related, or type-related...
Agreed. Still, trust me, it's type related--it's a Se-inf thing. The inferior function is, unless in a very mature individual, always mistrusted and often disliked. Go find a young ESTP on this site and ask if that person shares your views. I can almost assure you that they will not.

On a related note, I was recently in a relationship with an ESFJ who insisted on holding my hand in the hallways. I felt so guilty and ashamed as we walked by everyone, because I know exactly what I would be thinking if I was in their place... >_<

I always thought my own struggles in the past with anything sex related had more to do with low self-esteem than anything else. Talking to my INFJ husband about it, it seems like his own sexual struggles (or whatever you want to call it) were very much conditioned from early experiences as well. As far as sex as a whole goes, my view is basically: quality > quantity.

My husband always says that if something happened to us where we could no longer have sex, it wouldn't really matter. He just enjoys being with me and I guess that's what he enjoys the most about sex too. I pretty much agree with that. I hate how overrated sex is. I think it's fun and a lovely way to bond but it's not worth my life and I don't feel like I'm a slave to my impulses. It's temporary pleasure. But I suppose you could say that is an INFJ thing? I'm not sure. I think it's a personal thing. We all have different views.
My observations have led me to believe that it is indeed an INFJ thing, for the reasons I stated above. Still, why can it not also be a personal thing? You have your own independent opinion...but that opinion is guided by your personality type. For example, give a carnivore a wide variety of foods to eat. That carnivore is absolutely free to choose whatever food it wishes, but it will inevitably choose to eat some kind of meat. This choice was personal, and yet also objectively predictable.

I hate how overrated sex is. I think it's fun and a lovely way to bond but it's not worth my life and I don't feel like I'm a slave to my impulses. It's temporary pleasure. But I suppose you could say that is an INFJ thing?
NAILED it with that explanation right there. :3 That is the best explanation I've yet seen about how this topic has to do with Se-inf.

I'm practically a prude; asexual of sorts. In marriage or out of it, I'll only have sex with someone I truly love. I don't like the idea of sleeping around, and I don't like other people doing it either. I have this expectation for people to stick to their morals and subdue their desires and only act on it when it's in good taste (and for me, have sex when you truly like someone, not when you're just horny). I also have this expectation for gays not to sleep with women, ever. I have a bad impression on people who do
We explained the exact same phenomenon, but I explained it in Ni terminology (internal pattern identification) and you explained it in Fe terminology (objective morality). The connotations are different, surely, but the result is effectively the same. My post describes the internal motives; your post describes the external attitude. Maybe that attitude is not fueled by insecurity, or maybe it is on some subconscious level, but either way both phenomena have the same end.

[G]ive up on the idea that this one desire you have is unworthy of you...Discard this mind/flesh, this animal/transcendent dichotomy...Don't view it as black and white. Call off the crusade
HOW?

I have an INFJ friend who I couldn't understand, and even doubted her being INFJ, just on account of how overwhelmingly religious she is. But then I realize how well it plays into her whole masochistic shunning of sex and "all that is evil" thing she has going on in her head. It's very interesting to me.
Wait, it suprised you that an FJ is religious? Religions are one of the only common providers of an objective morality, without which Fe is an unhappy function. (sad Fe is sad ;~;)

I am a strongly "religious" (which is to say, spiritual in a Christian sense) INFJ...is that uncommon? I feel like it's not, especially since most people who have typed Jesus think that he was one :p Plus, all of my INFJ friends are Christian. I do not intend to use that as objective evidence, but rather to provide my motive for doubting the implication of your post.
 

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Why would you hate what you are sexually attracted to? I don't get it? And why would you want to report all those people? That's none of your dang business. Stay out of it. I don't get it. I'm sorry.

Anyway, I am insecure about my sexuality only because sometimes I feel unattractive...otherwise, I think it's healthy to have Horny feelings. I am a Christian, though, so I try to keep my entire life like pure until I get married. I will still try to stay pure in marriage, of course, but I will be able to have intimacy in the correct way. (in my opinion of what is correct according to my belief system).

I have never really felt guilty about my sexual feelings about men. I thought it was normal. I have felt guilty about ways I have expressed it in life, but to have the feelings...nope. Never felt insecure about it.
 

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Interesting.
I am religious but I am fascinated by sexuality and feel no shame or disgust for it. I watched porn for some time but it is not really satisfying so I stopped. I have a problem with random touches or kisses though which are meant just friendly. They often caught me off guard and I like to control whats happening around me. Also getting physical with just anybody is not my thing. The one I love is the one allowed to touch me. No one else.
I don't like the way many people handle sexuality. Like it is something dangerous. Something you need to hold back. If you do that it leads to such situations I read above. I once nearly started something with a man, but then didn't because it was like... holding hands was much for him and only sleeping in the same room was a total no go. I think of that as sick. My boyfriend now I can touch wherever I want whenever I want. He can do the same with me. We are not obsessed with anything but enjoy our time together.
 

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I can relate. I've always been somewhat ... "meh" about sex. Not all that interested in it, and not comfortable with people touching me much. I tend to be asexual much of the time, but on occasion my hormones kick in and then I'm annoyed at myself for being supercharged.

On a minor note... Frollo is unhealthy Ni-Fi. No Fe there. Lots and lots of Ni, but followed up with Te. He's also one of my favorite Disney villains. :)
 
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