[AbioticPrime]

I've noticed that my entire life I form images/realizations of who I want to be or what I want to become and I seem to be propelled to fulfill those roles as perfectly as possible.

Through this experience I could say I've become a talented actor. But not only that, I've also gained each of these roles as a unique identity which I can bring up if I try hard enough.

Sometimes I'm the caring empathetic lover, sometimes the tyrannical yet effective leader, sometimes the closet empath, sometimes a social butterfly, other times the consumed busy body student. I know we [humans] all go through such phases but I'm talking about taking these to a further level, and I'm also referring to a more vague sense of role.

I think this is directly linked with our Ni and its habit of having visions and wanting to fulfill them -- or 'profound visions of change'. I also think this is why many of us are mistyped -- because we have a drawer filled with various personas and at times truly believe that the persona we're playing is the real us.

For the longest time I've considered myself an xNTJ, because I've had a very strong sense of analysis and always seem stoic & apathetic; cool-headed in any situation. Though I've realized that most of this comes from an image I was trying to fulfill -- an image of intelligence, leadership, 'coolness'. Basically, my life is a role-playing game (I don't find any shame in that, I actually see much beauty in it).

I'm not being very clear, I'll edit this later, hopefully you can somewhat understand.

Do you identify?

 

[Arclight]

Yes.. You are clearly using Ni/Fe.. INFJs are social chameleons.. And they are great at imagining how they will need to be and becoming it.

 

[Lady Nurture]

AbioticPrime ,
Thank you for your topic; it resonates very much with me!
I think as I've aged, I've become more comfortable with the idea of being a chameleon and allowing for much play and exploration to ensue, provided that through these various selves, I'm able to strengthen my core self's understanding of the world.
As long as the core retains a morality/value system that is uniquely my own and through experience continues to be refined, then there is beauty and sense of wonder to each of these selves that I can enjoy.
Each of them holds truth, even if they are a layer of fiction themselves.
I'll agree with you, it is difficult because it is all relates back to same thing: the individual.
Have you ever read A Scanner Darkly by Philip K. Dick? In the book and film, there is something called a "scramble-suit" that an undercover detective uses to conceal his true identity, which continuously projects hundreds of different faces and selves to hide him. That sequence in the film, in which the narcotics detective is delivering a speech of his experiences in a roomful of colleagues, is very much the visual representation of the daily INFJ experience.
I thank you very much for explaining it how you did!

A Scanner Darkly- Agent Fred

Naturally, I don't think many of us can relate to Fred's job; this is just my way of showing each self is really its own person, with an imagined form, face and unique traits.

 

[Pier 56]

I've mentioned before how I can't go to Canada without come back with an accent for this very reason.
We are total sponges.

My Father is INTP.
That massive Ti has really rubbed off on me.
I have an almost Dr.House/Dr.Hawkeye Pierce (dry/cynical) sense of humor because of that.

When I'm hanging with my ESFP friend, I end up having a very different sense of humor and behavior then when I'm hanging with my ENFP friend.

INFJs come with a disclaimer on the box:
"INFJsubjecttochange. Resultsmayvary!!!"

 

[AbioticPrime]

I've mentioned before how I can't go to Canada without come back with an accent for this very reason.
We are total sponges.

My Father is INTP.
That massive Ti has really rubbed off on me.
I have an almost Dr.House/Dr.Hawkeye Pierce (dry/cynical) sense of humor because of that.

When I'm hanging with my ESFP friend, I end up having a very different sense of humor and behavior then when I'm hanging with my ENFP friend.

INFJs come with a disclaimer on the box:
"INFJsubjecttochange. Resultsmayvary!!!"

I don't always change to match. Often I'll change to the opposite of somebody or I'll change to stand out from a group, when I think that's what's best for everyone or when I'm trying to satisfy a particular image I have set out for myself. In fact, unlike what you've described, I usually choose to go against the grain. I'm not sure if this is infj of me.

Though I definitely do pick up on mannerisms and ways of viewing the world. I'll visit my relatives in the mid west and come back thinking like a cowboy, lol

 

[emerald sea]

yes, INFJs can make for excellent actors/actresses...

and Fe can look chameleon-like to the untrained eye.

 

[Pier 56]

I don't always change to match. Often I'll change to the opposite of somebody or I'll change to stand out from a group, when I think that's what's best for everyone or when I'm trying to satisfy a particular image I have set out for myself. In fact, unlike what you've described, I usually choose to go against the grain. I'm not sure if this is infj of me.

Though I definitely do pick up on mannerisms and ways of viewing the world. I'll visit my relatives in the mid west and come back thinking like a cowboy, lol

Really?
Hmn. Maybe I'm too complacent?
Lol.

 

[AbioticPrime]

Really?
Hmn. Maybe I'm too complacent?
Lol.

Perhaps. We all have different journeys, different experiences, different drives. Our enneagrams play a major role in the way we deal with the world as well -- we probably have different enneagrams. I'm a 3w2 which means my main motivations in life are to achieve, succeed, and be recognized for it -- possibly bringing along my teammates to the glory. This'd make me less complacent with the way things are because I'm living in the future.

Also, perhaps there's an age difference. I'm 18, at the turning point of my life -- I guess trying to discover who I am or where I belong. Would make sense that I'm tirelessly searching at this point.

 

[Pier 56]

Perhaps. We all have different journeys, different experiences, different drives. Our enneagrams play a major role in the way we deal with the world as well -- we probably have different enneagrams. I'm a 3w2 which means my main motivations in life are to achieve, succeed, and be recognized for it -- possibly bringing along my teammates to the glory. This'd make me less complacent with the way things are because I'm living in the future.

Also, perhaps there's an age difference. I'm 18, at the turning point of my life -- I guess trying to discover who I am or where I belong. Would make sense that I'm tirelessly searching at this point.

Maybe.
(I'm 17 btw)
The only time I go against the grain is when I'm dealing with SJs and/or hostiles.
I'm like a 1w2 or 1w9 or something.

From what I can tell, MBTI is the foundation that all types have, and then the enneagrams are what happens after that from life experience, right?

 

[AbioticPrime]

Maybe.
(I'm 17 btw)
The only time I go against the grain is when I'm dealing with SJs and/or hostiles.
I'm like a 1w2 or 1w9 or something.

From what I can tell, MBTI is the foundation that all types have, and then the enneagrams are what happens after that from life experience, right?

Enneagrams definitely happen later on, you're right. I believe it's directly related to your personality type and your childhood.

For me, I was an introverted Fe child raised by an ESTP mother who never encouraged me, never recognized my achievements, never gave me affection. I think this had a lot to do with my formation into a 3 -- trying to 'finally' receive all that I wanted as a child in my day-to-day life.

I've also met many 8s who've had severe issues in their childhood with feeling powerless.

Though (here's my Ti at play), who's to say I wasn't affected by that so negatively because I was already a 3.

 

[WIPerspective]

I've noticed that my entire life I form images/realizations of who I want to be or what I want to become and I seem to be propelled to fulfill those roles as perfectly as possible.

Through this experience I could say I've become a talented actor. But not only that, I've also gained each of these roles as a unique identity which I can bring up if I try hard enough.

Sometimes I'm the caring empathetic lover, sometimes the tyrannical yet effective leader, sometimes the closet empath, sometimes a social butterfly, other times the consumed busy body student. I know we [humans] all go through such phases but I'm talking about taking these to a further level, and I'm also referring to a more vague sense of role.

I think this is directly linked with our Ni and its habit of having visions and wanting to fulfill them -- or 'profound visions of change'. I also think this is why many of us are mistyped -- because we have a drawer filled with various personas and at times truly believe that the persona we're playing is the real us.

For the longest time I've considered myself an xNTJ, because I've had a very strong sense of analysis and always seem stoic & apathetic; cool-headed in any situation. Though I've realized that most of this comes from an image I was trying to fulfill -- an image of intelligence, leadership, 'coolness'. Basically, my life is a role-playing game (I don't find any shame in that, I actually see much beauty in it).

I'm not being very clear, I'll edit this later, hopefully you can somewhat understand.

Do you identify?

Everything I have just read here makes complete sense to me. The first time I took an MBTI test, my result was "INTJ" and for quite a while, I thought I was an INTJ (I took various other MBTI tests to see how accurate the results were). I'm a high school student, so I'm still going through certain phases in life. And even after studying the cognitive functions, I was still doubtful.

As for the actors/actresses, I think anyone with Ni can act like chameleons. I think this function allows INFJs/INTJs to look through different perspectives of other people to see things their way, and once we see things their way, we somehow know what they're like, how they act, etc. Ni is a very complex function.

Sometimes, I still go through certain stages myself where I'm trying to convince myself, There's no way you can be an INFJ because INFJs are the rarest type and you should be just someone ordinary like anybody else. Other times, I think to myself, I'm not that special, and other people are better than me. Stop trying to think you're so special when you're clearly not! I often find myself saying that I'm just an ordinary human being, and even if I really am an INFJ, again, I'm gonna say to myself, You're not special because you're an ordinary human like everyone else on this planet.

I hope that made sense.

 

[AbioticPrime]

Everything I have just read here makes complete sense to me. The first time I took an MBTI test, my result was "INTJ" and for quite a while, I thought I was an INTJ (I took various other MBTI tests to see how accurate the results were). I'm a high school student, so I'm still going through certain phases in life. And even after studying the cognitive functions, I was still doubtful.

As for the actors/actresses, I think anyone with Ni can act like chameleons. I think this function allows INFJs/INTJs to look through different perspectives of other people to see things their way, and once we see things their way, we somehow know what they're like, how they act, etc. Ni is a very complex function.

Sometimes, I still go through certain stages myself where I'm trying to convince myself, There's no way you can be an INFJ because INFJs are the rarest type and you should be just someone ordinary like anybody else. Other times, I think to myself, I'm not that special, and other people are better than me. Stop trying to think you're so special when you're clearly not! I often find myself saying that I'm just an ordinary human being, and even if I really am an INFJ, again, I'm gonna say to myself, You're not special because you're an ordinary human like everyone else on this planet.

I hope that made sense.

You feel guilty for feeling above or special from others? I suffer from the same. I'm more intelligent than most of my peers (I feel evil just for saying that), and although it has its perks and certainly feels good from certain perspectives, I can't help but feel I'm undeserving of it and that I'm criminal for thinking/recognizing it.

I try so hard to be 'normal' that it's gotten to a point where I'm stuck in a self-defeating loop. I feel ashamed when I study, so much that my mind actually shuts itself down when I feel I'm picking things up too easily.

I don't think this is healthy. We don't want to be special because we want to be able to fit in with others, not make them feel threatened, connect with them (that's our Fe), but I guess beating ourselves up over it is not the way to go. I don't have an answer for this one :'(

But I agree. I'd argue that Ni is the most complex and vague function. Though it's good to know that half the people in the world use it more or less.

 

[kelar]

I've noticed that my entire life I form images/realizations of who I want to be or what I want to become and I seem to be propelled to fulfill those roles as perfectly as possible.

Through this experience I could say I've become a talented actor. But not only that, I've also gained each of these roles as a unique identity which I can bring up if I try hard enough.

I think this is directly linked with our Ni and its habit of having visions and wanting to fulfill them -- or 'profound visions of change'. I also think this is why many of us are mistyped -- because we have a drawer filled with various personas and at times truly believe that the persona we're playing is the real us.

Do you identify?

I sooo relate to this. I understand perfectly xD
I would agree with the you and the others, that it's because of Ni. It's been said that Ni is "Transforming yourself in a specific way by focusing inward on a way you foresee you'll need to be in the future"
(It is most useful xD )
Fe is the expression of that....And like you said, that's why it's hard for some INFJs to discover their type (mistyped); Because we can appear to be something different, and even believe to be it. It's only until you look deeper, with some introspection, that you really can know...

 

[Pier 56]

Enneagrams definitely happen later on, you're right. I believe it's directly related to your personality type and your childhood.

For me, I was an introverted Fe child raised by an ESTP mother who never encouraged me, never recognized my achievements, never gave me affection. I think this had a lot to do with my formation into a 3 -- trying to 'finally' receive all that I wanted as a child in my day-to-day life.

I've also met many 8s who've had severe issues in their childhood with feeling powerless.

Though (here's my Ti at play), who's to say I wasn't affected by that so negatively because I was already a 3.

Where do you think the line stops?
Between the motivations of being an INFJ, being NF, and one's enneagram?

In essence, where does it stop being an INFJ motive and become an enneagram motive?

I've seen similar base motivations in INFJs and all other types (to each their own) of many different enneagrams.
And I can see large differences between the type 1 motives of an INTP and the type 1 motives of an INFJ.

Is it meant to further specify within already determined types?
Or is it meant to pool EVERY type 1 (from INFJ to ESTP) into one pool - INSTEAD of MBTI?

(I'm asking you because you seem to know more about it. =] )

 

[beast in peace]

We all have roles that we must fulfill in life. Roles are determined by expectations others have of us, or in other words there is a correlation between behavior and expectations- be it from society at large, loved ones, etc. The actor's behavior, culture, genes, rights and obligations influence how they will respond in certain scenarios. We find incentives for adopting certain roles by weighting out the pros/cons, social pressure/reactions of others, there is constant negotiation; therefore they are always changing, especially because of unique individual perspectives of certain situations.

On the flip side, one's role if captivating enough, could win the support of the masses. These same roles can cause confusion and be conflicting (cognitive dissonance), but some of their aspects could prove beneficial to another role altogether.

 

[Lost in Oblivion]

I don't always change to match. Often I'll change to the opposite of somebody or I'll change to stand out from a group, when I think that's what's best for everyone or when I'm trying to satisfy a particular image I have set out for myself. In fact, unlike what you've described, I usually choose to go against the grain. I'm not sure if this is infj of me.

This sounds like 3-ish behavior to me (which, coincidentally, is your Enneagram type ).

I don't think image fluctuation and adaptation is strictly INFJ. People will adapt their image for different reasons; if you look at the enneagram, you'll see that:
- Type 2 fluctuates image in order to accommodate others
- Type 3 fluctuates image in order to acquire a sense of self-worth from others
- Type 4 fluctuates image in order to fit an idealized version of self

I would believe image-centric types are the best at flexing their image around because that is how they derive identity. The other two triads don't put as much importance on it as the image triad does. With such a high population of INFJ 4s, it doesn't seem all that surprising that INFJs have a tendency to be good at it. However - as said - it's not something strictly INFJ.

In essence, where does it stop being an INFJ motive and become an enneagram motive?

"INFJ motives" are non-existent. INFJ defines how one processes information; enneagram attempts to define the core motivations of individuals. With commonly shared enneagram types among certain MBTI types (for example, INFJ/4, ENTJ/8, ESFP/7), more general commonly-held values are likely (that is to say, the descriptions are rather broad in the first place and the Barnum effect easily comes into play).

 

[AbioticPrime]

This sounds like 3-ish behavior to me (which, coincidentally, is your Enneagram type ).

I don't think image fluctuation and adaptation is strictly INFJ. People will adapt their image for different reasons; if you look at the enneagram, you'll see that:
- Type 2 fluctuates image in order to accommodate others
- Type 3 fluctuates image in order to acquire a sense of self-worth from others
- Type 4 fluctuates image in order to fit an idealized version of self

I would believe image-centric types are the best at flexing their image around because that is how they derive identity. The other two triads don't put as much importance on it as the image triad does. With such a high population of INFJ 4s, it doesn't seem all that surprising that INFJs have a tendency to be good at it. However - as said - it's not something strictly INFJ.


"INFJ motives" are non-existent. INFJ defines how one processes information; enneagram attempts to define the core motivations of individuals. With commonly shared enneagram types among certain MBTI types (for example, INFJ/4, ENTJ/8, ESFP/7), more general commonly-held values are likely (that is to say, the descriptions are rather broad in the first place and the Barnum effect easily comes into play).

Is it possible for your enneagram number to shift throughout the course of your life?

I really believe I've seen myself and others make this shift.

 

[Lost in Oblivion]

Is it possible for your enneagram number to shift throughout the course of your life?

I really believe I've seen myself and others make this shift.

I can't say right now from my own personal experience because I'm still trying to figure out my enneagram type right now. However, I think I agree with what the Enneagram Institute has posted on their website:

Occasionally, someone's results will be an almost even distribution of scores among the nine types....there are two explanations for this kind of close pattern. First, the subject may have been engaged in therapy or spiritual development for many years and may have resolved the problems and conflicts of his or her personality. (As essence is developed, personality loses its grip; hence, the more work a person does on himself or herself, the more it eventually becomes difficult to test personality, and scores would be expected to equalize.) It should be noted, however, that very few individuals seem to have attained this degree of integration and non-identification with their ego. This explanation should therefore be applied rarely and with great caution.

So according to this, with self-improvement comes a difficulty of determining type. I think perhaps for a 3 it would be difficult, since 3 is constantly self-improving in order to achieve success. This is why I am having difficulty right now; I identify strongly with 3, but I'm curious to whether I use it as a tool to achieve 8's ends, or if 3 is using 8 to achieve its own ends. Overall, though, I'd say the core motivations are consistent from early on. Take a look at the person before development (in childhood) or perhaps unhealthy states of health - and maybe you will see the true colors shine, and not the equalized type.

 

[AbioticPrime]

I can't say right now from my own personal experience because I'm still trying to figure out my enneagram type right now. However, I think I agree with what the Enneagram Institute has posted on their website:


So according to this, with self-improvement comes a difficulty of determining type. I think perhaps for a 3 it would be difficult, since 3 is constantly self-improving in order to achieve success. This is why I am having difficulty right now; I identify strongly with 3, but I'm curious to whether I use it as a tool to achieve 8's ends, or if 3 is using 8 to achieve its own ends. Overall, though, I'd say the core motivations are consistent from early on. Take a look at the person before development (in childhood) or perhaps unhealthy states of health - and maybe you will see the true colors shine, and not the equalized type.

Ah, then despite my scores I'm certainly at a loss between 3 & 8 as well. I'll ponder on this, maybe we can explore it together once we have more info.

 

[Enfpleasantly]

@AbioticPrime have you ever read this? Particularly the teenaged section? http://personalitycafe.com/entj-articles/15174-development-entj-children.html

Try not to be thrown off by the ENTJ's on the forum, my Husband shows lots and lots of Fi for me...including tears, gasp! Just not for many others. Yet, he is very ENTJ, especially in the sense of wanting to lead and be recognized for it. He however, has a lot of respect for others and a very well balanced way of thinking IMO...he is also either enneagram type 3 then 6 or 6 then 3, we are still investigating that. When he was a kid, he wanted to be an actor and loved performing for the camera, as a teen he was the class clown and took on a lot of his friends traits, like facial expressions, style, interests, etc. it wasn't until his mid 20's when he became himself in entirety. He will dance with me, laugh his ass off with friends and at the same time, he climbs the corporate ladder with ease and has a fierce level of realism. He is not the stereotypical stone cold dictator To this day, he likes to learn about himself for further growth, I do the same. Just thought I'd share in case you were comparing yourself to the other ENTJ's on the forum and didn't think you fit in.