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alot of new age gurus are speakign about the ultimate happyness only comes when the ego drops?,ok it gives me peace being in that state of silence,but i just want to hear some infj thoughts on this,dropping the ego and thoughts?
 

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Just like doomsday prophets, there are new age prophets. It's logical that when people stop identifying with their suffering and free their minds, suffering ends. I think many people tend to misunderstand Zen masters and people who speak of enlightenment. I think it's inevitable for humanity to become free of ego. It's just a matter of time.
 

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Often it seems it's an attitude of wishing to be rid of oneself. It's saying there's some aspect of my experience which I wish was no longer present.

The notion that happiness comes from dropping the ego presupposes some criteria by which I assess certain aspects of my experience as 'ego' and others as not. Why is it not the case that the belief or intention which wishes to be free of ego is not itself a product of the ego?

People who believe it's a benefit to be free of ego tend to end up fixating in the same handful of places. Fixating in the witness/observer position. Fixating in emptiness. Fixating in everythingness. Fixating in oneness. Fixate here. Fixate there. All these points of fixation are predicated on false beliefs.
 

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Often it seems it's an attitude of wishing to be rid of oneself. It's saying there's some aspect of my experience which I wish was no longer present.

The notion that happiness comes from dropping the ego presupposes some criteria by which I assess certain aspects of my experience as 'ego' and others as not. Why is it not the case that the belief or intention which wishes to be free of ego is not itself a product of the ego?

People who believe it's a benefit to be free of ego tend to end up fixating in the same handful of places. Fixating in the witness/observer position. Fixating in emptiness. Fixating in everythingness. Fixating in oneness. Fixate here. Fixate there. All these points of fixation are predicated on false beliefs.
I have one (intp) friend who is so fixated on becoming enlightened, that nothing and no one else could exist except for his path to enligthenment. I find, a lot of people who scream they are enlightened, are not enlightened at all. It's a social construct.

I do enjoy it though. I think everything holds a certain truth. I think letting go of anxiety and fear is beautiful and freeing. I think doubting every social construct is beautiful and freeing. You could call it new age, you could call it religion, as long as it serves you in becoming a lovely person ;)
 

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I have one (intp) friend who is so fixated on becoming enlightened, that nothing and no one else could exist except for his path to enligthenment. I find, a lot of people who scream they are enlightened, are not enlightened at all. It's a social construct.
Haha! Maybe today will be his day.

The idea that I'll become enlightened presupposes criteria by which I assess that what I'm experiencing right now is not it. X is happening or Y is happening therefore this can't possibly be enlightenment. Enlightenment couldn't possibly feel like this. There's an underlying belief there that enlightenment will look or feel a certain way and one of the effects is that it creates resistance to the experience of what's happening right now.

I like that old Dōgen quote: "Do not think you will necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment."

People who experience transcendent states and then fall out of those states often become fixated on them in the way people fixate on past loves. They try to get back to that glorious feeling they experienced in the past. I don't think it works that way. I have to let my images of love die to make room for the experience of love. If I try to seek the thing as it was I may make myself incapable of finding the thing as it actually is.
 

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I find that the misconception lies in the fact that happiness is deemed as the ultimate goal. Whereas I deem it to be meaningfulness which can occur with bursts of happiness but it isn't the constant state as that tends to devolve into manic euphoria and ecstasy.

If we are using the Freudian interpretation of the ego, then I would argue it isn't the banishment or dropping of the ego that brings about enlightenment but rather the unification of the entire being in cooperative steps in unison towards meaningful goals.

A dropping or abandonment of the ego would only result in hyper orderly rationalistic behavior or hyper aggressive instinctual/animalistic natures by my estimation.

I find that the new age people are gripped by the ideas and objectives outlined by the mythical and mystical but fail to realize and understand from where it is all grounded and also fail to properly interpret it to find the modern manner of being.
 

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Haha! Maybe today will be his day.

The idea that I'll become enlightened presupposes criteria by which I assess that what I'm experiencing right now is not it. X is happening or Y is happening therefore this can't possibly be enlightenment. Enlightenment couldn't possibly feel like this. There's an underlying belief there that enlightenment will look or feel a certain way and one of the effects is that it creates resistance to the experience of what's happening right now.

I like that old Dōgen quote: "Do not think you will necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment."

People who experience transcendent states and then fall out of those states often become fixated on them in the way people fixate on past loves. They try to get back to that glorious feeling they experienced in the past. I don't think it works that way. I have to let my images of love die to make room for the experience of love. If I try to seek the thing as it was I may make myself incapable of finding the thing as it actually is.
I believe Jung said something similar. Along the lines of the moment you try and embody the divine being and replicate the nature of it is the moment you lose contact with it because that is not the point of it's existence. It exists is a state beyond our own and can be utilized as a manner to which our unconscious mind can formulate articulate thoughts and ideas but our being can never exist in it.

That Dogen quote fits very well. If I'm not mistaken even Buddha realized that in order to fully embrace enlightenment he had to abandon his earthly nature and was reluctant to do so.
 

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alot of new age gurus are speakign about the ultimate happyness only comes when the ego drops?,ok it gives me peace being in that state of silence,but i just want to hear some infj thoughts on this,dropping the ego and thoughts?
That's nothing new. Enlightenment coming with the loss of ego is well-attested in the Hindu, Buddhist, and Taoist traditions, for example, and seems to have been part of practice in most Christian monastic traditions as well.
 
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The ego is necessary for survival and having and learning from your own individual experience here. It only becomes problematic when it's in the driver seat rather than your true self or, you've bought into believing some false image of yourself is your true self. Which is why self-awareness through viewing yourself from an outside perspective is important in order to transcend the trappings of the ego. I think she explains it well here:

 

 
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Jung had a lot to say about the ego. In his view of things the ego plays a critical role. He sees the ego as necessary for accomplishing the union of opposites and he also sees it as necessary in the later stages of the individuation process where one's potential for unique expression on this earth begins to flower.

Intuitively I've always felt like the relationship between the ego and the unconscious was something very important so traditions which proclaim the ego to be useless or valueless tend to rub me the wrong way.


Jung, Aion: Phenomenology of the Self:

'I have suggested calling the total personality which, though present, cannot be fully known, the self. The ego is, by definition, subordinate to the self and is related to it like a part to the whole.'

...

'We understand the ego as the complex factor to which all conscious contents are related. It forms, as it were, the centre of the field of consciousness; and, in so far as this comprises the empirical personality the ego is the subject of all personal acts of consciousness. The relation of a psychic content to the ego forms the criterion of its consciousness, for no content can be conscious unless it is represented to a subject.'

...

'Although its bases are in themselves relatively unknown and unconscious, the ego is a conscious factor par excellence. It is even acquired, empirically speaking, during the individual's lifetime. It seems to arise in the first place from the collision between the somatic factor and the environment, and, once established as a subject, it goes on developing from further collisions with the outer world and the inner.'
 

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I've always been fascinated by ascetic concepts such as this. In spite of their truth I believe they are often dismissed too quickly. There might be more beneath the surface.
 

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The translators introduction sounds like a new age concept

PSYCHOLOGY OF
THE UNCONSCIOUS

A Study of the Transformations
and Symbolisms of the Libido

A Contribution to the History of the Evolution of Thought

BY

Dr. C. G. JUNG


TRANSLATOR'S NOTE

That humanity Is seeking a new message, a new light
upon the meaning of life, and something tangible, as It
were, with which It can work towards a larger under-
standing of Itself and its relation to the universe, is a
fact I think none will gainsay. Therefore, It has
seemed to me particularly timely to introduce to the Eng-
lish-speaking world Dr. Jung's remarkable book, " Wand-
lungen und Symbole der Libido." In this work he has
plunged boldly Into the treacherous sea of mythology and
folklore, the productions of the ancient mind and that of
the common people, and turned upon this vast material
the same scientific and painstaking method of psychologic
analysis that is applied to the modern mind, in order to
reveal the common bond of desire and longing which
unites all humanity, and thus bridge the gaps presumed
to exist between ancient and widely separated peoples and
those of our modern time. The discovery of this under-
current affecting and influencing ancient peoples as well
as modern serves as a foundation or platform from which
he proceeds to hold aloft a new ideal, a new goal of
attainment possible of achievement and which can be in-
tellectually satisfying, as well as emotionally appealing:
the goal of moral autonomy.
 

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I'm crying right now because I feel so alone in life and I feel like a failure and my the girl I loved hates me and wants to fool around with different dudes even though I really did love her and showed it to her but I guess if a person is not physically in your body they really can mix up who you are as a person and come up with their own conclusions because I just get seen as this bad guy.. If there was a heaven I'd be cool but I don't know if there is one.. I don't think life after death is even that pleasant.. I guess there's winners and losers in life and I'm the poor loser.
 

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I think, and forgive me for giving a simple/boring answer, that happiness is a choice. Sure, there is science that says it’s 50% choice, 10% cercomstance, and 40% unifentified/generics.... but even that 10% could be choosing to take yourself out of bad cercomstances. Regardless of that, at the very least we know that people can be (at least) 50% happy.

However, plot twist, there’s a lot that goes into making that choice to be happy, and there are many of valid reasons to choose to be unhappy. So this answer does go a little deeper than the simple, “it’s a choice” answer. For some the solution could be dropping their ego, but I’m very skeptical of anyone who offers a one size fits all sort of key to untimate happiness. Including myself.
 

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Happiness isn't a product of eliminating or suppressing any one facet of oneself... but of integration and balance.
In fact, in any system where there's significant repression, whether that be a personal standard, group ideology, or other constraints, people are demonstrably less fulfilled & happy.

The thing is, if something exists, it has a purpose. Whatever a person's scientific / religious belief about the universe, this holds true.
The question becomes just what is it's purpose? What does healthy balance look like? When does it exceed it's purpose and become a detractor? When is more support needed?
Balance and acceptance is happiness.

Also, I'd like to take the opportunity to mention that I have a beef with them using terms like "New age". C'mon, everything that's old is new again, the new becomes old, and on it goes.
What's it going to be like for archaeologists & historians in a couple hundred years when they are discussing the "new age" movement? It's ironic and I think I would be annoyed at the presumptuousness if I were from a future time, because no period owns the future.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Often it seems it's an attitude of wishing to be rid of oneself. It's saying there's some aspect of my experience which I wish was no longer present.

The notion that happiness comes from dropping the ego presupposes some criteria by which I assess certain aspects of my experience as 'ego' and others as not. Why is it not the case that the belief or intention which wishes to be free of ego is not itself a product of the ego?

People who believe it's a benefit to be free of ego tend to end up fixating in the same handful of places. Fixating in the witness/observer position. Fixating in emptiness. Fixating in everythingness. Fixating in oneness. Fixate here. Fixate there. All these points of fixation are predicated on false beliefs.
iv experimented with this,being the observer to yoru thoughts,actions and reactions,and felt at times that the 'i' was disolving and the only thing left was an awareness of being one with everything around you,being one wiht your thoughts,the enviroment,ect,its like killing the false i then another i emerges but theres no more 'you' all yoru actions happens without yoru own will,it feels like you basicaly a salt doll wrapped in plastic doing yoru own thing in a river dropping the ego is like dropping the plastic,then your as teh salt doll merges with the river.and just flows were the river flows,you become one wiht the river
 

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alot of new age gurus are speakign about the ultimate happyness only comes when the ego drops?,ok it gives me peace being in that state of silence,but i just want to hear some infj thoughts on this,dropping the ego and thoughts?
They get this from Buddhism, where the objective is to lose your identity in the one-ness of the universe.

It is not my experience as a mystic. I absolutely do experience the interconnectedness of everything, what CS Lewis called the Great Dance, but it's more than just that. In the bliss, when I connect with the Divine, I DO NOT lose myself. Rather, I am that being that am I supposed to be, where I am supposed to be, doing what I am supposed to be doing. If the universe is a great dance, then every dancer plays their part, none is insignificant. That would mean me, too.
 
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