I see I missed several posts a ways back. Maybe I should read the rest of the thread so far before responding. But what the heck, guess I'll live on the edge :tongue:
@Verity3
I think the difference you might be missing, and the reason why you think we're competing with you when we're not, is because you offer ideas. We then want to get things done with those ideas and find closure, while you still (apparently?) want to keep musing over it, or savoring it. To us, the idea is the means to an end. An idea is useless without execution. To you, the idea in and of itself seems to be a priority, which is why we disagree. Because you guys are suggesting things and we're trying to
use them to make decisive statements that we can work with in the future, and you just mean them as general (not pointless, but I guess aimless, or maybe pointless is the right word for an ENTJ to use) observations. To me, if I can't use it, there's no point thinking about it. I can use most things, but I think that's where some of the clash comes from.
So you're not trying to compete so much as reach closure more quickly. Fair enough. But an idea prematurely executed runs a greater risk of
misapplication. (Which IMO ranks right down there with misinformation.)
I do try to confine myself to "savoring" my ideas while I'm alone. I'm well aware that ain't nobody got time for that but me :wink: Continued "musing," however, can serve a valid purpose in preventing a misapplication of the idea.
@Verity3
The way you say this though is interesting. "Really, guys, I'm trying! Am I reading you wrong? Or do ENTJs tend to trust the results of competition over the results of cooperation?" This seems like we're fighting against you by arguing with you, when we view this as an exchange of ideas. We only like ideas that are correct to be out there, and we conclude something is correct or incorrect far more quickly than you guys do. I find INFPs often come to the same conclusions I do and just take longer to get there. So if I feel I know what you're going to decide, and history has shown me I do, I'll want to get to those conclusions, and have those be the endpoint of the discussion. I want to learn something, in other words, but I want what I'm learning to be clear to me. I also don't see what in this discussion caused you to say it in what appears to me to be a distressed way, since I don't see anything distressing about it except for poor Rydark, who got exasperated and left. I'm working very hard to try and understand the things you're unravelling, but this statement seems to come a bit out of nowhere, and be a bit resentful, like we're not trying to help. This is just an observation, not a personal attack, and it's how I would normally interpret a statement like this.
I think that's also another example of INFPs reading wayyyy into things that the ENTJs didn't mean. Because you view
how we say things as a bit aggressive, I think, you've extrapolated that into "wow you just don't want to cooperate". Rydark left because he felt the discussion was pointless, likely, not because he thinks you're a horrible person. It's just that he doesn't want to cooperate with you on this issue because (probably) he views it as pointless and a discussion that won't go anywhere.
And here I need to apologize to you, Maust, for not making myself more clear. I should have acknowledged your cooperation thus far in particular before making such a general statement. Also, I should have clarified that I was thinking of Ni-and-Te users in general including INTJs (one of whom I am married to... which may explain a lot :dry
.
@Rydark, on the other hand, cast aspersions on my character with his extrapolations, and while I chose to interact with him anyway, I do find aspersions on my character, when they are untrue, to be distressing. I actually appreciate and even at times enjoy constructive criticism because, as I think
@slothpop said, it helps with self-improvement and character-building. False criticism, however, is something I find incredibly distracting at best, and usually it creates more destruction than anything else.
But I should have made it clear I wasn't trying to accuse everyone with Ni and Te of excess competition. (Although when one person is trying to make sure everything is fair as possible to everyone, and a second person is trying to make sure everything is fair as possible to himself, I think that second person's behavior may fairly be interpreted as a form of competition, whether that second person realizes that's what he's doing or not.)
@Verity3
Another note: for us, it's easy to make up our mind and then change it. That's why when we make a decision we don't always have to think it through first- we know we're usually right, and if we're not right this time, someone will correct us or we'll correct ourselves. There's nothing wrong with making a decision and then changing your mind, and spending too much time thinking about things just feels paranoid.
I think decisiveness has a lot of value. The problem as I see it is when hasty conclusions create consequences, especially when they fall on other people. Some seem far too intent on dismissing their mistakes and assuming they can just change their minds, when other people are still dealing with the fallout. This is especially true when the "mistake" is a false statement about another person. (Often people don't remember the "correction," if one is forthcoming at all, nearly as much as they remember the slander.) Mistakes that support the prevailing system or narrative are hard to just brush aside because there is a built-in incentive to hang on to those mistakes.
This is really the crux of the matter for me. It is just as accurate to say that there is nothing wrong with being careful. I understand that some people can validly choose to be less careful than others, because "due care" is a subjective concept. But when careful behavior is criticized while decisive behavior is lauded, it does result in carelessness being treated as a virtue. Even though no one would ever describe it that way who doesn't see the problem.
In the same way that you see some Fi-Ne users as crossing the line into paranoia, some of us see Te-Ni users as crossing the line into recklessness. So my question (to Maust or other users of these functions) is how can we cooperate better? How can we encourage each other to use our respective strengths (decisiveness AND caution) without overstating our respective weaknesses? And how much can we encourage each other to overcome our weaknesses without pressuring each other to abandon our type?
The last thing I want to do is try to twist an ENTJ into an INFP.
How far can I go to encourage "due care" without risking suppressing the ENTJ's true nature? (I'm not worried about you guys in this thread letting such a thing happen :tongue: I'm more concerned about how I might help-and-not-harm young or immature ENTJs.)