Personality Cafe banner

INFP - ENTJ Trying to understand each other - thread!

30K views 353 replies 42 participants last post by  msalign 
#1 ·
Because a single question on each other's forum simply doesn't do it.

Understanding one another might seem a mission impossible, but let's give it a shot anyway! All INFP's and ENTJ's are welcome to post here and join the talks.
@Rydark , I'll throw here your last comment posted in the relationship-questions' thread:

But I would like to introduce a concept to you that is embedded in my psyche - Ideas don't determine who is right. Power determines who is right. Something to think about, darling hehe.
I don't really see what you mean. If you are talking about how politics or business often work in practice, I might understand you, but then the word "right" seems misplaced. I would associate this in the first place with morality, but what's the link with power? Power as it is usually understood doesn't really appeal to me either. So, can you elaborate?
 
#2 ·
Because a single question on each other's forum simply doesn't do it.

Understanding one another might seem a mission impossible, but let's give it a shot anyway! All INFP's and ENTJ's are welcome to post here and join the talks.

@Rydark , I'll throw here your last comment posted in the relationship-questions' thread:



I don't really see what you mean. If you are talking about how politics or business often work in practice, I might understand you, but then the word "right" seems misplaced. I would associate this in the first place with morality, but what's the link with power? Power as it is usually understood doesn't really appeal to me either. So, can you elaborate?
Woman, you just painted a target on the back of my head for all the INFPs haha!

A man will come to ruin if he tries to be good all the time by those who are not good. - Niccolo Machiavelli
Well it's quite simple, really. You might have great ideas(morally just, helpful, etc), but they don't mean anything if you don't have the power (power being political, in regards to money, time, your intelligence, willpower, etc) to implement them for yourself or for others, and it doesn't make you any better (until you implement them).

I have seen many who have gone to ruin trying to do the "good" or "right" thing all the time and who tried to think their way out of them instead of taking actions. They died blaming the world for their misfortunes. Might be a little extreme, but something to think about, nonetheless.

This is more of an anecdote - a nudge like you nudged me in our conversations on the other thread lol.
 
#9 ·
Woman, you just painted a target on the back of my head for all the INFPs haha!

A man will come to ruin if he tries to be good all the time by those who are not good. - Niccolo Machiavelli
Machiavelli. Seriously? You just painted that target on your head yourself! ;)

Well it's quite simple, really. You might have great ideas(morally just, helpful, etc), but they don't mean anything if you don't have the power (power being political, in regards to money, time, your intelligence, willpower, etc) to implement them for yourself or for others, and it doesn't make you any better (until you implement them).

I have seen many who have gone to ruin trying to do the "good" or "right" thing all the time and who tried to think their way out of them instead of taking actions. They died blaming the world for their misfortunes. Might be a little extreme, but something to think about, nonetheless.
Interesting ideas. There doesn't have to be a opposition between good ideas and the use of power. I think power can be achieved and used in good and in bad ways. I think of the power of parents over their children. Sometimes it goes wrong, but in general parents want the best for their kids. The same could count for political power, only here the power often becomes a goal on itself and that I find morally wrong. But, you're right that just dreaming about a better world isn't enough. It's not bad to push INFP's to think about this, because it isn't a natural strength of ours to plan or see to implement our ideas.

Related to this topic, something I've been lately wondering about is the use of war and violence. I've always been a pacifist, but now I think that that's maybe the easy way out. Easy talking for someone who is living in a country where there is no war or oppression. I think some things might be worth fighting for. I'm just not sure yet how to fit this in with my beliefs. So it's something I'm trying to figure out.

Oh, shoot I don't belong here... whoops
Don't worry, you're not on the ENTJ-forum here. :tongue:
 
#3 ·
Because a single question on each other's forum simply doesn't do it.

Understanding one another might seem a mission impossible, but let's give it a shot anyway! All INFP's and ENTJ's are welcome to post here and join the talks.

@Rydark , I'll throw here your last comment posted in the relationship-questions' thread:



I don't really see what you mean. If you are talking about how politics or business often work in practice, I might understand you, but then the word "right" seems misplaced. I would associate this in the first place with morality, but what's the link with power? Power as it is usually understood doesn't really appeal to me either. So, can you elaborate?
You two are so adorable. :tongue:

Oh, shoot I don't belong here... whoops
 
#4 ·
INFPs are

  • Reserved
    Individualistic
    Respecting of the need for space
    Full of strong principles
    Fun to be around
    Explosive emotional volcanoes
    Kind to others
    Focused sometimes on how things are said rather than what was said
    Thoughtful
    Polite
    Interested
    Terrifying
    Human time bombs
    Extremely sensitive
    Often thinking the same thing I am- I just say it out loud
    Imaginative
    Empathetic
    Cheerful

I get along with them best... well, at arm's length, if I'm being honest. I'm very scared of hurting them and I don't want to say something they'll misinterpret. Often they don't realize something I've said has offended them until afterward, but they don't communicate how they feel very well. If I can trust them to communicate their feelings and not be too offended, I really like being around them and they make great friends. I've only met one male INFP, and I did like him as a person, but I can't imagine dating someone like him. I can keep up with Fi for awhile, but it ends up exhausting me- I'm afraid my Te would do the same to him.

When I tell an INFP that something is flowery bullshit, they'll say something like "but facts are just facts" or "but facts are stupid, have more imagination". Ti or even Fe can usually agree with me for efficiency's sake, but INFP's have a whimsical romanticism that I just don't have. They are very loyal, which is something I appreciate, but I always feel like I'm stepping all over their emotions and they're hiding something from me.
 
#11 ·
Except for terrifying, which I guess is how you see INFP's, I find the list is quite accurate for me, although you did leave out the our more negative characteristics. But I'm sure most INFP's are well aware of them.

I think the relationship ENTJ and INFP becomes better if they know each other well and there's trust. If I know they mean well, I like being with NT's because I feel I don't have to worry about hurting someone's feelings. I can say what I think and we can discuss it freely. It's a matter of getting used to it. Of course you can't avoid those moments where we'll just be shocked about something you said and look at you as if you just killed a puppy.

I have an ENTJ sister and find that I have the best connection with her compared to my other siblings. We really understand each other on most topics and usually think the same. There are the typical clashes: She has hurt me with things she said, but that has become rarer because I now understand better how she operates and don't take it too personal. I think that's an important step for INFP's to take: don't take anything an ENTJ says as personal. I know I've hurted her as well, because when cornered I'll say something rather sharp or even mean and this hits even harder because I'm usually not that way. We sometimes clash over our different preferences towards debate. If a situation is too charged, I want to let things rest, be on my own, think it over. She'll come to me and talk and talk aaaaahhh! But I understand that she needs that. And where she provokes a discussion, I'll avoid it by all means. As we get older we jokingly make caricatures of each other: she'll say I want to please everyone and don't take a stand, I'll say she's an ambitious bitch.
 
#6 ·
Hullo :kitteh:

I'm scared of INFPs too, but probably for different reasons. Why are you scared of us? (If you don't want to answer, that's okay too.)
 
#7 ·
I've always admired ENTJs, but I feel I'm too emotional for them.
I feel like ENTJs won't like my Fi or Ne and just find me annoying for the most part. :/
In a romantic sense, I am attracted to the sort of assertiveness, intelligence, and I-know-what-I-want attitude they have, but I'd be concerned that the feelings wouldn't be returned considering that I'm just an overly-imaginative lunatic. Aha.
 
#8 ·
I've never met an ENTJ before, or at least if I have I don't know it.
My INFP grandmother (a psychologist) told me to be wary of ENTJs because they can be mean and be bullies and boss me around but... I don't completely believe her. I'm certain that you guys can be wonderful people! :tongue: Everyone has at least a little good in them, right?
I bet an ENTJ and an INFP could get along happily, it must be possible.
 
#12 ·
@Rivulet
Machiavelli. Seriously? You just painted that target on your head yourself!
What? You don't like Machiavelli lol?

There doesn't have to be a opposition between good ideas and the use of power.
There can be if you are too idealistic and when you refuse to see the world as it is.

Related to this topic, something I've been lately wondering about is the use of war and violence.
Warfare is one of my favorite topics, so thank you!
"Warfare is the greatest affair of the state. It is the tao between life or death." - Sun Tzu from The Art of War. War (and violence in general) is absolutely necessary, but should be avoided when possible. Winning without bloodshed is the greatest victory.
On the subject of being a pacifist, it is the same thing as being a coward. There is no progress without sacrifice, so conflict is an absolute must.
"The world suffers a lot. Not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people." "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily." - both by Napoleon Bonaparte (my hero).
We can have a good debate on warfare if you like, hehe. Just fire away (no pun intended).

I'm just not sure yet how to fit this in with my beliefs
Correct me if I am wrong, but this statement makes me think that you look at the world as you see fit - an ideal world. You have a belief system. That's great. Now, I would encourage you to look at the world as it is with all its glory and imperfections, and bend it to your will. Give it form based on your beliefs, instead of adding to or morphing your beliefs based on an external idea or situation - a very passive way of living.
____________________________________________________________________________________

@shoot4thestars
You two are so adorable.
Not sure what you mean by that...

____________________________________________________________________________________

@endlessdaydream
I would give you a hug, but you will get sick as Rivulet said that I am too cold!
 
#47 ·
Correct me if I am wrong, but this statement makes me think that you look at the world as you see fit - an ideal world. You have a belief system. That's great. Now, I would encourage you to look at the world as it is with all its glory and imperfections, and bend it to your will. Give it form based on your beliefs, instead of adding to or morphing your beliefs based on an external idea or situation - a very passive way of living.
The world and facts also aid in the formation my worldview and belief system. There is a kind of interaction as I wouldn't want a belief system that stands loose from reality and that I simply impose upon my surroundings. I will, of course, follow my values and try to impact the world to a certain degree. However, as having or refusing a belief system is a free choice, there's little power involved (that is power how it is generally understood). But that's not disturbing. I can impact the world in small ways by the way I live and how I treat others.

On the other hand, now that my views on warfare are changing... ;)
 
#26 ·
I don't understand how ENTJs are always able to be on top of things. Formulating a plan, staying productive, focusing on one thing at a time...I can't imagine what that'd be like on a day-to-day basis. My brain doesn't work that way.

I dated an ENTJ, and I think I came to understand his perspective pretty well, even if I disagreed with it. It was harder for me to understand the break up, because we really cared about each other, and our problems could have been reconciled with some comprise, or so I thought. I don't know what it would feel like to give that up so quickly, I think. My ex also couldn't bear the thought of not being the best, having the upper hand, etc. If we were going to break up, it had to be on his terms or he would see to it that it didn't happen. If he was in a room with smart people, he had to see to it that he was known as the smartest in the room, often to the point where people would take me aside and ask me to remove him from the room. He told me that it didn't matter if he had it all together, he just had to make it seem like he had it all together. I certainly don't know what that feels like. Is that an ENTJ thing or does it reflect something deeper?

Another thing that I wonder is about how saliency works for ENTJs relative to INFPs. My ex didn't always notice things related to me, but he always saw work-related things as salient. If I sent an email to the group, he might not notice it at first. But he'd always notice a work-related opportunity, or something related to technology and mechanical engineering. For me, people are generally more salient than objects, even people I am not close with. I don't know what it's like to prioritize work first unless I genuinely don't care about the person, because in my mind, even the well-being strangers is more salient to me than the objective world. So I can't adopt that mind-set, really.

My ex really liked competency and skill. He would talk endlessly about people, things, companies that he found to be competent. He also really emphasized our connection and how much he loved me, though I fit the competency bill less than the other people he admired. Looking back, I wonder why he preferred to date me over someone equally competent (in his eyes). From a rational standpoint, it could have been because I was someone who listened to him talk about the things he liked. I wonder if there is a tendency for ENTJs (at least in the beginning) to have primarily selfish intentions even when 'in love'.

(Though from the perspective of the average outsider, people wondered why I settled for someone like him. So it could have also been his way of keeping me under control, by emphasizing the ways in which he was competent. Even now, he will actively patch up areas in which I could perceive him as incompetent, and he gets deeply hurt when I poke fun at his flaws, minor as they may seem to me if I were to have those flaws.)
 
#27 ·
(Though from the perspective of the average outsider, people wondered why I settled for someone like him. So it could have also been his way of keeping me under control, by emphasizing the ways in which he was competent. Even now, he will actively patch up areas in which I could perceive him as incompetent, and he gets deeply hurt when I poke fun at his flaws, minor as they may seem to me if I were to have those flaws.)
Reading this, I'd wonder the same thing. He doesn't sound very healthy, and imo there are very few types who could put up with an unhealthy ENTJ. And no types should have to- an unhealthy ENTJ is like a dragon. Or a bomb. Or a dragon that swallowed a bomb.

Yeah, sometimes INFPs won't always say what they mean. We often think that we could possibly offend someone, or start a conflict which are things we typically don't want to do.

One thing I've noticed about XXTJ types, is their softer side. I'm sure you have it, but basically XXTJ's will often appear "tough" or "distant" or whatever, but when they develop affection for someone they can actually be very sweet and kind.
I try to develop this affection for everyone and treat everyone kindly. I get along very well with more mature INFPs who say what they mean- it's just difficult when we're both less mature and thus suck more at communication.

@endlessdaydream Yeah, I'll agree with that. A lot of ENTJs can be condescending- it bothers other ENTJs too, if that helps. :)

Oh. I see. Cute, in what way? We were having a debate, exchanging ideas, and educating each other.
Goddammit we're cute, just accept the @shoot4thestars ' compliment

Don't be scared! If they bite, just bite back!

Even Darth Vader had still some good in him, so surely some ENTJ's will as well! ;)
I like you.
Bite us back, it shows us you won't let us dominate you. We like that. :kitteh:
 
#33 ·
@Rydark I loved that Napolean Bonaparte quote. Shame I can't put it anywhere myself, as I don't resonate with it (power doesn't really interest me unless I can temporarily use it to gain the attention of the person who does), but I found it to be an insightful quote nonetheless.
@maust I think you've probably just had some contact with unhealthy INFPs. A lot of my INFP friends seem to live on a hair-trigger. Anything you say can offend them. Maybe I'm tougher after dating that aforementioned ENTJ (which wouldn't surprise me, come to think of it, as he seems to be a bit more robotic and unhealthy than the average ENTJ), but I myself kind of like it when people tell me how to view things in the most effective way. It feels wonderful, because I'm not naturally attuned to 'efficient' ways of doing things. I also get a kick out of being told my flaws, but I think I'm alone on that boat. :tongue: I just like having an opportunity to engage in self-growth, and I'm obviously not an unbiased observer on that front.
 
#39 · (Edited)
@slothpop Here is another quote: "Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power." -Lao Tzu from Tao Te Ching. Power isn't just political influence. Being good at drawing is also power, for example. I had an entire debate with @Rivulet on how you can use sexual energy to accomplish many things on the "Non-INFPs, ask INFPs relationship questions or come and chat!" thread. That is another example of power.

I invite you to expand your mind and to not think of "power" in the derogatory sense, but as the very core that gives you meaning and existence. Why do you think it's called willPOWER?

Sorry for the multiple posts. I should be more organized.
 
#65 ·
Power is never a derogatory word. It is a necessary component of life.

From my experience, there is a difference in flavor between the power I crave and the power another person might crave. I crave power over myself, and less so power over the situation that I am in. It is important that we have people who crave power over a situation, though, because a desire for that sort of power can impel to action.

To desire power over others is a side effect of something else; as is fatigue, headache, and nausea.
 
#52 ·
The true magic lays in between the fact that the human cognition is so varied and immense that we are able to relatively understand all functions, have an excellent grasp of each other or the deepest fears of another (usually lower stacked functions). We have a continuous and evolving ability to perceive the most colourful and difficult sides of a person without truly valuing the way they see the world however there is a potential of grasping and helping another one through your own uniqueness. That is why an ENTJ still has a stronger Ne than Ni but does not necessarily mean he consciously values it in his opinions and worldview, therefore he understands the INFP (For more details: Socionics). A sense of absolution and difference, lovely combinations in an universe so diverse, these suppositions and theories have a heavier value in the world of human potential and development. People just often refuse to see it or interpret it in a shallow and saddening way.
 
#55 · (Edited)
I hate going back on my word, and I absolutely hate beating around the bush, but I have to intervene. You people seem to be missing a fundamental point.

When you are writing on the internet, the interpretation of said writing has some parameters. Those parameters are limited to the words you use. An interpretation outside those parameters is ludicrous because it is not a face to face interaction. You can't write something and expect your readers to fill in the blanks or interpret it in a way that is outside the scope of what you wrote.

And this is not subjective. It is objective backed up by deduction.

If you mean something different, you should word it differently! No-one cannot read your thoughts, though some claim to on this thread.

EDIT: I am not feeding this nonsense any more. I am done!
 
#56 · (Edited)
I hate going back on my word, and I absolutely hate beating around the bush, but I have to intervene. You people seem to be missing a fundamental point.

When you are writing on the internet, the interpretation of said writing has some parameters. Those parameters are limited to the words you use. An interpretation outside those parameters is ludicrous because it is not a face to face interaction. You can't write something and expect your readers to fill in the blanks or interpret it in a way that is outside the scope of what you wrote.

And this is not subjective. It is objective backed up by deduction.

If you mean something different, you should word it differently! No-one cannot read your thoughts, though some claim to on this thread.

I am done!
It sounds like you object to a speaker-centric model of communication, in which the speaker's intended meaning is assumed to be the "correct" meaning. In that model, it is the speaker's responsibility to communicate accurately, but when misunderstanding occurs, the listener is generally considered at fault; i.e. the burden of communication rests on the listener. This model was long considered to be the way communication worked, particularly in more monologic settings such as professor-student or pastor-congregant, and it continues to be popular especially in traditionalist circles. I am glad to see it somewhat on the wane. It tends to encourage some fairly irresponsible speaking habits IMO.

What is becoming even more popular these days, especially on the more monologic forms of social media on the internet, is a receiver-centric model of communication, in which whatever the reader/hearer understands the speaker to mean is considered the "correct" meaning, and in which the burden rests with the speaker to take the reader by the hand and make everything clear from the beginning; the speaker may clarify again later if necessary, but it's probable that no one is still listening. I really hope this communication model doesn't take over the culture at large. It tends to encourage some fairly irresponsible listening habits IMO.

I prefer a cooperative model of communication, in which the speaker is responsible for doing her best to send the message clearly and the listener is responsible for doing her best to receive the message clearly, and both are responsible for asking clarifying questions as needed. This model is more dialogic, and I believe it encourages more responsible (and more rational) communication habits among everyone involved in the communication.

Apparently you believe that on a message board like PersC, the listener-centric model of communication is the norm; that is in fact a highly subjective assumption, and I disagree. In the debate threads, perhaps that is the case. But most threads on message boards at least have the potential to be dialogue-friendly; and in fact, this particular thread is about INFPs and ENTJs trying to understand each other.

If you are looking for a thread in which everyone tailors their writing to what is "fairest" to you as the listener, without regard to what is "fair" to everyone... you in fact are in the wrong thread.
 
#60 ·
I've come to realise in time that INFP's and ENTJ's both feel like outliers in society for two different reasons, (put with exaggeration and a pinch of satire) ENTJ's think everyone is stupid and INFP's think no one understands them. They are personalities that love independence, so when they meet there already exists a strong mutual common ground for things to develop into friendship. In saying this they are completely different in behaviours, but the preference in intuition which allows them to see where the other person is coming from. The great thing about this combo is that there is no competition, so it's very clear where they stand in the friendship. Nothing but admiration for each others ways, which is a pretty beauty thing to develop in a relation.
 
#62 ·
@Verity3 If an INxP doesn't have time to process something, I've noticed they'll likely disagree with me just because they haven't had time to think it through. I think this is how Ne kinda "feeds" info to the judging function- they have to make sure what they're taking in is consistent with what they already think/believe. So now I'll say something, pause, be like, "Yeah? Does this make sense?" and wait for them to nod or indicate I can keep going.
@Rivulet "Zebra crossing" *snorts*

Hm. So you go out of your way to avoid influencing others, and we go out of our way to make sure others feel our influence. When you say something, we try to use it to make an assessment that is useful and allows us to make what we consider to be progress, or we react to something we read in between the lines that you weren't trying to imply. And when we say something that we think is furthering the conversation because it's conclusive and decided instead of just speculation, you guys think we're being too decisive and closed-minded.
 
#63 ·
@Verity3 If an INxP doesn't have time to process something, I've noticed they'll likely disagree with me just because they haven't had time to think it through. I think this is how Ne kinda "feeds" info to the judging function- they have to make sure what they're taking in is consistent with what they already think/believe. So now I'll say something, pause, be like, "Yeah? Does this make sense?" and wait for them to nod or indicate I can keep going.

@Rivulet "Zebra crossing" *snorts*

Hm. So you go out of your way to avoid influencing others, and we go out of our way to make sure others feel our influence. When you say something, we try to use it to make an assessment that is useful and allows us to make what we consider to be progress, or we react to something we read in between the lines that you weren't trying to imply. And when we say something that we think is furthering the conversation because it's conclusive and decided instead of just speculation, you guys think we're being too decisive and closed-minded.
Basically, yes. I don't think I avoid influencing people. I avoid forcing them, and I place very little priority on influencing them. Though I do want to influence people for good, my mode is putting good stuff into the universe for whoever may choose to benefit from it. I do care whether people benefit, but seeing them benefit (seeing my influence) is not the point for me. The point is that I want people to prosper. (Even seeing people I don't like very much prosper makes me happy for them... as long as it's not wrongfully at somebody else's expense.)

Time to process ideas IS very important to me. If I don't have time to think it through, then I don't have time to do it carefully, which means I don't have time to do it IMO. I do let many possibilities in life slip away for this reason. (But... but there are like SO MANY OTHER possibilities in life, like INFINITE possibilities, that I don't have time to pursue them all, and trying to do that would be far more overwhelming than rewarding!) Freedom to pace myself is a high priority for me. It helps make life worth living.

I sense that many people find this sort of INFP behavior self-defeating. This makes me sad, because I think of it as conservation of resources. Sometimes it's easier to enjoy a little bit of something which you take the time to savor, than it is to enjoy pigging out. Quality over quantity. Sustainability over maximization. Learning over "winning."

Do you INFPs analyze the hell out of something? If so, how often do you guys consciously catch yourself doing it, stop, take a firm decision and follow through?
Yes. Yes I do. I analyze and analyze and I don't stop until I feel I've exhausted the possibilities. It's one of my favorite things to do. Tinkering with ideas. UNLESS I notice that I'm in a loop (Fi-Si, or possibly Fi-Ti in my case... I have decided that Ti is my third favorite function EVER). If I'm in a loop, then I only FEEL like I'm exploring possibilities, but really I just need to admit that I have exhausted them for now and stop. Firm decision and follow through? Only when necessary. Premature decision making is one of my least favorite things EVER. Right down there with misinformation.

But I'm a 5w4, so this may or may not be typical of INFPs in general.

The great thing about this combo is that there is no competition, so it's very clear where they stand in the friendship. Nothing but admiration for each others ways, which is a pretty beauty thing to develop in a relation.
I'm not seeing the lack of competition. With XNTJs, it seems to me that a lot of the time they are trying to compete with me while I am trying to cooperate with them :/ I believe their way of thinking has value, though, so I'm TRYING to develop my admiration.

Really, guys, I'm trying! Am I reading you wrong? Or do ENTJs tend to trust the results of competition over the results of cooperation?
 
#64 ·
@Verity3 I like putting good things into the environment too, but not through competition. If someone is stupid, though, I will happily outcompete them. I work with people until they're proven annoying or stupid if they're interested in the same thing I am. Most of the time, I just work with a few people who are close to me and/or have the same goals I do.

I think the difference you might be missing, and the reason why you think we're competing with you when we're not, is because you offer ideas. We then want to get things done with those ideas and find closure, while you still (apparently?) want to keep musing over it, or savoring it. To us, the idea is the means to an end. An idea is useless without execution. To you, the idea in and of itself seems to be a priority, which is why we disagree. Because you guys are suggesting things and we're trying to use them to make decisive statements that we can work with in the future, and you just mean them as general (not pointless, but I guess aimless, or maybe pointless is the right word for an ENTJ to use) observations. To me, if I can't use it, there's no point thinking about it. I can use most things, but I think that's where some of the clash comes from.

The way you say this though is interesting. "Really, guys, I'm trying! Am I reading you wrong? Or do ENTJs tend to trust the results of competition over the results of cooperation?" This seems like we're fighting against you by arguing with you, when we view this as an exchange of ideas. We only like ideas that are correct to be out there, and we conclude something is correct or incorrect far more quickly than you guys do. I find INFPs often come to the same conclusions I do and just take longer to get there. So if I feel I know what you're going to decide, and history has shown me I do, I'll want to get to those conclusions, and have those be the endpoint of the discussion. I want to learn something, in other words, but I want what I'm learning to be clear to me. I also don't see what in this discussion caused you to say it in what appears to me to be a distressed way, since I don't see anything distressing about it except for poor Rydark, who got exasperated and left. I'm working very hard to try and understand the things you're unravelling, but this statement seems to come a bit out of nowhere, and be a bit resentful, like we're not trying to help. This is just an observation, not a personal attack, and it's how I would normally interpret a statement like this.

I think that's also another example of INFPs reading wayyyy into things that the ENTJs didn't mean. Because you view how we say things as a bit aggressive, I think, you've extrapolated that into "wow you just don't want to cooperate". Rydark left because he felt the discussion was pointless, likely, not because he thinks you're a horrible person. It's just that he doesn't want to cooperate with you on this issue because (probably) he views it as pointless and a discussion that won't go anywhere.

Another note: for us, it's easy to make up our mind and then change it. That's why when we make a decision we don't always have to think it through first- we know we're usually right, and if we're not right this time, someone will correct us or we'll correct ourselves. There's nothing wrong with making a decision and then changing your mind, and spending too much time thinking about things just feels paranoid.
 
#114 ·
I see I missed several posts a ways back. Maybe I should read the rest of the thread so far before responding. But what the heck, guess I'll live on the edge :tongue:

@Verity3
I think the difference you might be missing, and the reason why you think we're competing with you when we're not, is because you offer ideas. We then want to get things done with those ideas and find closure, while you still (apparently?) want to keep musing over it, or savoring it. To us, the idea is the means to an end. An idea is useless without execution. To you, the idea in and of itself seems to be a priority, which is why we disagree. Because you guys are suggesting things and we're trying to use them to make decisive statements that we can work with in the future, and you just mean them as general (not pointless, but I guess aimless, or maybe pointless is the right word for an ENTJ to use) observations. To me, if I can't use it, there's no point thinking about it. I can use most things, but I think that's where some of the clash comes from.
So you're not trying to compete so much as reach closure more quickly. Fair enough. But an idea prematurely executed runs a greater risk of misapplication. (Which IMO ranks right down there with misinformation.)

I do try to confine myself to "savoring" my ideas while I'm alone. I'm well aware that ain't nobody got time for that but me :wink: Continued "musing," however, can serve a valid purpose in preventing a misapplication of the idea.

@Verity3
The way you say this though is interesting. "Really, guys, I'm trying! Am I reading you wrong? Or do ENTJs tend to trust the results of competition over the results of cooperation?" This seems like we're fighting against you by arguing with you, when we view this as an exchange of ideas. We only like ideas that are correct to be out there, and we conclude something is correct or incorrect far more quickly than you guys do. I find INFPs often come to the same conclusions I do and just take longer to get there. So if I feel I know what you're going to decide, and history has shown me I do, I'll want to get to those conclusions, and have those be the endpoint of the discussion. I want to learn something, in other words, but I want what I'm learning to be clear to me. I also don't see what in this discussion caused you to say it in what appears to me to be a distressed way, since I don't see anything distressing about it except for poor Rydark, who got exasperated and left. I'm working very hard to try and understand the things you're unravelling, but this statement seems to come a bit out of nowhere, and be a bit resentful, like we're not trying to help. This is just an observation, not a personal attack, and it's how I would normally interpret a statement like this.

I think that's also another example of INFPs reading wayyyy into things that the ENTJs didn't mean. Because you view how we say things as a bit aggressive, I think, you've extrapolated that into "wow you just don't want to cooperate". Rydark left because he felt the discussion was pointless, likely, not because he thinks you're a horrible person. It's just that he doesn't want to cooperate with you on this issue because (probably) he views it as pointless and a discussion that won't go anywhere.
And here I need to apologize to you, Maust, for not making myself more clear. I should have acknowledged your cooperation thus far in particular before making such a general statement. Also, I should have clarified that I was thinking of Ni-and-Te users in general including INTJs (one of whom I am married to... which may explain a lot :dry:).

@Rydark, on the other hand, cast aspersions on my character with his extrapolations, and while I chose to interact with him anyway, I do find aspersions on my character, when they are untrue, to be distressing. I actually appreciate and even at times enjoy constructive criticism because, as I think @slothpop said, it helps with self-improvement and character-building. False criticism, however, is something I find incredibly distracting at best, and usually it creates more destruction than anything else.

But I should have made it clear I wasn't trying to accuse everyone with Ni and Te of excess competition. (Although when one person is trying to make sure everything is fair as possible to everyone, and a second person is trying to make sure everything is fair as possible to himself, I think that second person's behavior may fairly be interpreted as a form of competition, whether that second person realizes that's what he's doing or not.)

@Verity3
Another note: for us, it's easy to make up our mind and then change it. That's why when we make a decision we don't always have to think it through first- we know we're usually right, and if we're not right this time, someone will correct us or we'll correct ourselves. There's nothing wrong with making a decision and then changing your mind, and spending too much time thinking about things just feels paranoid.
I think decisiveness has a lot of value. The problem as I see it is when hasty conclusions create consequences, especially when they fall on other people. Some seem far too intent on dismissing their mistakes and assuming they can just change their minds, when other people are still dealing with the fallout. This is especially true when the "mistake" is a false statement about another person. (Often people don't remember the "correction," if one is forthcoming at all, nearly as much as they remember the slander.) Mistakes that support the prevailing system or narrative are hard to just brush aside because there is a built-in incentive to hang on to those mistakes.

This is really the crux of the matter for me. It is just as accurate to say that there is nothing wrong with being careful. I understand that some people can validly choose to be less careful than others, because "due care" is a subjective concept. But when careful behavior is criticized while decisive behavior is lauded, it does result in carelessness being treated as a virtue. Even though no one would ever describe it that way who doesn't see the problem.

In the same way that you see some Fi-Ne users as crossing the line into paranoia, some of us see Te-Ni users as crossing the line into recklessness. So my question (to Maust or other users of these functions) is how can we cooperate better? How can we encourage each other to use our respective strengths (decisiveness AND caution) without overstating our respective weaknesses? And how much can we encourage each other to overcome our weaknesses without pressuring each other to abandon our type?

The last thing I want to do is try to twist an ENTJ into an INFP. How far can I go to encourage "due care" without risking suppressing the ENTJ's true nature? (I'm not worried about you guys in this thread letting such a thing happen :tongue: I'm more concerned about how I might help-and-not-harm young or immature ENTJs.)
 
#70 ·
@Rydark unapplied introspection is not as useful to someone who values action and observable, external progress. But it can also be applied. I see persuasive writing and rhetoric as applied introspection, as well as acting, and simulating the actions of others in your head (to 'see' their perspective, so to speak), thus allowing you to connect with pretty much anyone. FWIW, I've also found it extremely helpful in my neuroscience studying, oddly enough. It's like I have a 'feel' for how the brain works since I'm so introspective all the time. :p
 
#71 ·
@Rydark

No. Do you see how they are sensible and consistent? :wink:

I know all about intensity of focus. It is required for introspection. Aversion to introspection strikes me as more than a little attention-deficient.

I was always a good student, because I was compliant. Students generally have enough time to force themselves to fake Je-Pi competently. Whether it makes them healthy or not. Then in the world of business they discover there is no time, and carelessness is mysteriously deemed a virtue. :shrug: I'm glad for the experience of failing Je-Pi to show me what I need to do is to be the happiest, healthiest Ji-Pe I can be.

Did it ever occur to you that recommending your Je-Pi health strategy to all could create health problems in some?
 
#85 ·
It's better to have people be afraid to love you. It weeds out the weak and needy. :tongue:
 
#93 ·
I don't think its particularly difficult to understand an ENTJ....seems to be all about logic and efficiency. With a healthy dose of insight.
Would be cool to meet one in real life.
I think INFPs need to let all the emotion blow over first and then listen to what the ENTJ is saying, and I think the ENTJ needs to learn to say things in a less blunt way. Communication skills make everything so much easier.
 
#94 ·
I don't think its particularly difficult to understand an ENTJ....seems to be all about logic and efficiency. With a healthy dose of insight.
Would be cool to meet one in real life.
I think INFPs need to let all the emotion blow over first and then listen to what the ENTJ is saying, and I think the ENTJ needs to learn to say things in a less blunt way. Communication skills make everything so much easier.
In my failed one year relationship with an INFP, it was more about his rehashing of things, playing them out in different ways, constantly asking questions: "what do you think about ...?" "does that mean that?" "would it have been different if?" always asking another question. At a certain point, when I feel the issue has been resolved to my satisfaction, I need to move on. I had trouble understanding why he just couldn't let anything go. He was constantly trying to analyze my every thought, and read meaning into my every action, while at the same time, it felt like he was holding back what he really wanted to say, and just telling me what he thought I wanted to hear (and was completely wrong about what it was) At times I felt like a bug under a microscope. I found it draining.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top