Innocence and 8s?
[Enneagram Type 8]
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I don't know too much about the enneagram, but here goes:
I think of an enneagram's virtue as the particular something each they have lost and need to regain in order to become complete again.
I have problems grasping the idea of innocence, but here's my best shot for eight: Stereotypical Eight, we'll call him Bob, has significant problems trusting others and opening up. This stems from the very valid idea that the world is a terrible place full of terrible people(loss of innocence). He uses his belief in this to justify being a aggressive and trying to control various situations. Because if he's in charge, he can be sure that he's not being manipulated/used and that the team is moving in a good direction. He also needs to be independent because well, the only person you can trust is number one and he doesn't want to be screwed over if Aunt Sally drops dead and can't help with rent. This also leads to Bob's need to be powerful enough that he can protect the people he cares about.
Although very successful and respected, Bob has lost touch with those he cares about. He also probably has problems with empathizing and connecting with others. As an eight this sounds like bullshit to me, but in order to rekindle his relationship with humanity, he needs to figure out how to see and trust in the good in others.
I feel like I kind of wrote bob as a cp 6 but you get the idea.
I think of an enneagram's virtue as the particular something each they have lost and need to regain in order to become complete again.
I have problems grasping the idea of innocence, but here's my best shot for eight: Stereotypical Eight, we'll call him Bob, has significant problems trusting others and opening up. This stems from the very valid idea that the world is a terrible place full of terrible people(loss of innocence). He uses his belief in this to justify being a aggressive and trying to control various situations. Because if he's in charge, he can be sure that he's not being manipulated/used and that the team is moving in a good direction. He also needs to be independent because well, the only person you can trust is number one and he doesn't want to be screwed over if Aunt Sally drops dead and can't help with rent. This also leads to Bob's need to be powerful enough that he can protect the people he cares about.
Although very successful and respected, Bob has lost touch with those he cares about. He also probably has problems with empathizing and connecting with others. As an eight this sounds like bullshit to me, but in order to rekindle his relationship with humanity, he needs to figure out how to see and trust in the good in others.
I feel like I kind of wrote bob as a cp 6 but you get the idea.
What @bandersnatch wrote isn't inaccurate, but it goes deeper than that. The basis of the enneagram is that when we are out of touch with the essence of being (can be god if you are religious, but is more just some kind of spiritual/existential sense of feeling united with the world akin to ego death) we experience ourselves as being out of touch with a specific virtue unique to our type. For type 8 this is innocence and it has to do with how type 8 feels that they are no longer in touch with their own sense of existential/spiritual/whatever innocence.
Here innocence denotes a specific state of being when one allows oneself to simply experience the wonders of the world and see all the good it has to offer. Type 8 fundamentally thinks the world is a bad, hurtful and mean place to be in. In a sense all types do, but the hurtful nature of the world, especially in an emotional sense, is the most pronounced in type 8 due to its existential fear being (emotional) vulnerability. Ichazo mentions how type 8 sees itself as being the one cast out of the garden of Eden or heaven or something like that.
The 8 therefore thinks that in order to survive in this world one must treat it the way it is treating you back because you will never be let inside again and just be allowed to be or experience life in that childlike-state of wonder innocence offers, hence vengeance is one part of the passion of type 8. 8 is very vengeful and the 8 thinks they have to be bad or do bad things in order to overcome all the badness the world keeps throwing at them. However, this goes against the virtue of innocence since innocence cannot be bad so to speak. There is an aspect of innocence that exists beyond or outside such a rationalization of morality. It's more basic than just being good or virtuous.
The 8 therefore spends a lot of time looking for innocence in the outside world and projects it on people or situations where they see it as appropriate and tries to protect it because what the 8 fundamentally seeks is protection of themselves and their innocence they think they've lost. A good example of this would be Ellen Ripley from the Alien franchise. I am pretty sure she's an 8 or at least strongly 8-fixed.
Here innocence denotes a specific state of being when one allows oneself to simply experience the wonders of the world and see all the good it has to offer. Type 8 fundamentally thinks the world is a bad, hurtful and mean place to be in. In a sense all types do, but the hurtful nature of the world, especially in an emotional sense, is the most pronounced in type 8 due to its existential fear being (emotional) vulnerability. Ichazo mentions how type 8 sees itself as being the one cast out of the garden of Eden or heaven or something like that.
The 8 therefore thinks that in order to survive in this world one must treat it the way it is treating you back because you will never be let inside again and just be allowed to be or experience life in that childlike-state of wonder innocence offers, hence vengeance is one part of the passion of type 8. 8 is very vengeful and the 8 thinks they have to be bad or do bad things in order to overcome all the badness the world keeps throwing at them. However, this goes against the virtue of innocence since innocence cannot be bad so to speak. There is an aspect of innocence that exists beyond or outside such a rationalization of morality. It's more basic than just being good or virtuous.
The 8 therefore spends a lot of time looking for innocence in the outside world and projects it on people or situations where they see it as appropriate and tries to protect it because what the 8 fundamentally seeks is protection of themselves and their innocence they think they've lost. A good example of this would be Ellen Ripley from the Alien franchise. I am pretty sure she's an 8 or at least strongly 8-fixed.
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@Entropic, much of what you wrote I can see in me. Never realized it came from being an 8.
There are a few things I disagree with.
Fundamentally, the world is a VERY safe place for me. I suppose an asteroid could fall on my head, or some random nuke could level my city, but in general I'm safe. And, in general, those I love are safe.
I do not consider myself vengeful. Vengeful is inefficient, and illogical. If someone hurts me or one I love, I will take steps to keep that from happening again.
I do not seek to become innocent, or find innocence in me. Innocence in me is gone. I am actually working on being vulnerable to the right lady. With vulnerable will come better relationships, and perhaps less loneliness.
++++++++++++++
I have a pretty strong protective instinct for protecting those who I consider "innocent."
Innocent can be kids, or mentally challenged people, or women, or naive people.
Those who belittle or shame someone I like to squash.
is this a part of being an 8, or something else?
There are a few things I disagree with.
Fundamentally, the world is a VERY safe place for me. I suppose an asteroid could fall on my head, or some random nuke could level my city, but in general I'm safe. And, in general, those I love are safe.
I do not consider myself vengeful. Vengeful is inefficient, and illogical. If someone hurts me or one I love, I will take steps to keep that from happening again.
I do not seek to become innocent, or find innocence in me. Innocence in me is gone. I am actually working on being vulnerable to the right lady. With vulnerable will come better relationships, and perhaps less loneliness.
++++++++++++++
I have a pretty strong protective instinct for protecting those who I consider "innocent."
Innocent can be kids, or mentally challenged people, or women, or naive people.
Those who belittle or shame someone I like to squash.
is this a part of being an 8, or something else?
I managed to forget most of what I read about this topic but I still remember some things and if I combine them and my own feelings it goes like this.
(It may be hard to follow, sorry for that, looks like today is a bad day for me to write stuff)
Innocence is an essential part of the ideal world but in the real world there's not so much of it. It's mostly connected to interacting with people, I fail to apply the concept of innocence to nature and animals - they are animals, I can't expect them to have moral standards, think what they do and feel the same what humans feel. However, as people we live among people and it's they who corrupt the world by being selfish, manipulative, by making others suffer for their interests. But we all still have to live here so we end up accepting it as a part of life and a part of the world which cannot be taken away. We become a part of this world with its flaws.
In the real world innocence looks like something what makes you vulnerable and what only gets in the way so it's something to get rid of. I don't see it as a desireable trait in myself (though I seem ot have some... I try to keep that part of me locked away). I don't seek it out in people around me either because that feels like a fruitless and useless thing to do and I don't usually care about them much. However, I notice that some people have innocence and they seem so... so... innocent? They have something so rare and precious about them and they won't seek to take advantage of anyone but they can get hurt instead and I'd hate to see it happen. Sometimes I just want them to be happy because they are like rays of light in the darkness.
As for vengefulness - somewhere on this forum I saw a phrase which describes the feeling really well, the phrase was "It was you who ruined my world!". That is probably why injustice is felt so personally.
(It may be hard to follow, sorry for that, looks like today is a bad day for me to write stuff)
Innocence is an essential part of the ideal world but in the real world there's not so much of it. It's mostly connected to interacting with people, I fail to apply the concept of innocence to nature and animals - they are animals, I can't expect them to have moral standards, think what they do and feel the same what humans feel. However, as people we live among people and it's they who corrupt the world by being selfish, manipulative, by making others suffer for their interests. But we all still have to live here so we end up accepting it as a part of life and a part of the world which cannot be taken away. We become a part of this world with its flaws.
In the real world innocence looks like something what makes you vulnerable and what only gets in the way so it's something to get rid of. I don't see it as a desireable trait in myself (though I seem ot have some... I try to keep that part of me locked away). I don't seek it out in people around me either because that feels like a fruitless and useless thing to do and I don't usually care about them much. However, I notice that some people have innocence and they seem so... so... innocent? They have something so rare and precious about them and they won't seek to take advantage of anyone but they can get hurt instead and I'd hate to see it happen. Sometimes I just want them to be happy because they are like rays of light in the darkness.
As for vengefulness - somewhere on this forum I saw a phrase which describes the feeling really well, the phrase was "It was you who ruined my world!". That is probably why injustice is felt so personally.
Thank you all! But now I wonder.. What is it that a person has to have for you to help them? (Please don't get me wrong, just..try to understand my point) I don't know how to express my self really well, but I'll try. For example: "I do not help people if they don't stuns up for themselves" or "I help only the ones I trust" or "I help people only if I know they are hardworking (even if they don't get results), etc...
I know that you try to "bring justice" but is there anything that stops you from doing that? What are your "limits".. I just can't even think how could you ever help someone who tends to victimize themselves and doesn't think for themselves (exaggerating).
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they have to want CHANGE. if they want to continue to be a victim, I'll let them.
If they want CHANGE, I'll help.
if they are happy working on something with no results, nothing for me to do.
For me to stand up for them and react to the situational injustice? I'll basically just do it, unless I get the feeling there's a reason they don't want me to. For me to try and actively help them change their behavior to stop the situation from occurring again? It's a lot easier to talk me out of that one. I've got a pretty bad temper, so if I'm in the middle of a situation where someone is being bullied, I usually just react without thinking. I've just gotten better about using words instead of fists as weapons.
If someone wants to suffer, there isn't much I can do. I'll stand up for them if the situation immediately confronts me, but I'll stop going actively out of my way to convince them to change. My 6w5 best friend, for example, keeps a few friends around that are almost always damaging to her psychological health and, in one case, her physical health. I offered a restraining order and spent a few hours trying to convince her to drop him, but she says it isn't a big enough deal to do anything about it, and she "can't not be nice". When they're dicks to her, I'll still yell at them, but I can't force her to stop being friends with them. That's pretty much my limit- when they don't want to change their situation. It's the same thing with all my other 6w5 friends, actually. Though that may have to do with the fact that almost all of them are IxFJs.
But I feel innately compelled to stop people from bullying people like that. Not only with my friends, but with everybody. I just can't stand when people who can't defend themselves are being hurt- to be, it symbolizes exactly what is wrong with the world. That people see all these horrible things happen and they do NOTHING, because they're selfish and can't be arsed to care about others. Because a lot of people refuse to just be good people, even when it really isn't that difficult. I'm guilty of this as well- I've actually read that one of the signs of an Enneagram 8 is thinking that, deep down, they're really not that great a person. I definitely identify with that, though this could be the inferior Fi of an ENTJ talking- I hold myself to my own standards, and others can fall shorter of them than I can. However, once you reach a certain point, I will... uh. Destroy you. There really isn't a nice way to say that *shrug*
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I think I'm a pretty good guy in my own direct, honest way.
sometimes people run into things in life. a cop finds out something. i run into an old acquaintenance and give them a big hug with a smile and they freak out and swing at me for no reason. gifts are delivered.
weird stuff happens.
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Trust. Like the innocence of a child ... Trust.
I never think about justice usually and I'd say I'm the last person to expect true justice from, at least now. I'm too busy fixing myself to look around.
I can think of two points which are required so that I'd want to help someone:
1) I should like that person for whatever reason (can't explain it but if I dislike someone I don't want to help them).
2) I should feel that my help won't be wasted (for example, I should expect that the person won't place themselves back into the same situation which caused the need for help again and again and again).
I don't know what makes me think something is innocent and something isn't. I usually find situations unjust if the structure of power is clearly in favor of one side over the other and we can thus call it "unfair", especially if this difference was not something which was agreed upon by both parties as being an acceptable part of the interaction in question e.g. handicaps in many competitive games.
As for justice, I am not sure how to answer the question if there is such a thing as a limit or not. I'll do my best to even the playing field when it is possible but I am merely human and there is a limit to my capabilities and what I can achieve and accomplish. I think what matters more is actually about trying more than whether you succeed. At some level there is a certain mental resignation to the idea that no matter how much you try and work and strive towards making a change there is only so much you can do to improve the current state of the world simply because there is simply an intrinsic aspect of the world that is bad, and there is no way to ever get rid of this intrinsic aspect. You can fight against it but that's all you can do. When you fail it just becomes the ultimate evidence and proof that this intrinsic nature of the world as you see it is true.
This. I worked at a Home Depot. My store manager was the most unhealthiest 8 there was. He had to be store manager, even on his off days, he couldn't trust the assistant managers, he always had to get in his pickup drive to the parking lot, and just sit there in his pickup for three hours watching the workers work, picking up if a couple started to talk, so he could ambush them. In the real world this would be known as stalking, and he'd get arrested. He fooled no one with his stakeouts. I got many a "Hey Brian, Larry's here in his truck, you might want to actually work? " And then when a assistant manager is running the store everything's going fine, it wold be oh crap, Larry's playing obsessive police man, again for the 200th time. The man could not delegate and trust others, his order will be carried out. As a 8 wing, I have issues of delegating and trust. But so, poetic justice, a story on him getting fired was that he dressed down a disabled worker. He also defrauded the company.
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Trust is a huge issue for me. I freely give, but if betrayed, they will never be allowed back within the walls again.
Also in regards to innocence, if I see pure goodness, I will always have the urge to protect and shield it. For example, my husband is a 9w8, he is peaceful and compassionate. He sees the goodness in everyone. I do everything in my ability to help preserve that. Of course at times he can be naive, so I'll warn/teach him about the variables and dangers he can't see, but I'd rather do the leg work of being the bitch, than have him become a jaded and bitter person.
Also in regards to innocence, if I see pure goodness, I will always have the urge to protect and shield it. For example, my husband is a 9w8, he is peaceful and compassionate. He sees the goodness in everyone. I do everything in my ability to help preserve that. Of course at times he can be naive, so I'll warn/teach him about the variables and dangers he can't see, but I'd rather do the leg work of being the bitch, than have him become a jaded and bitter person.
Yeah, and when I'm done finding this mythical goodness in humanity, I can find the Loch Ness monster, a sasquatch, and the leprechaun with a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, too. :dry:
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I'm just gonna put this here, I think it's sort of relevant to my post before and the overall discussion.
I had my end of placement evaluation with my instructor this past week. I was working on an acute mental health ward at a hospital; there was an intensive care area, a children's area and an adult area. My teacher told me at one point along the way that I should 'tone down my confidence' because it was giving me an 'unfair advantage' and 'making the other students feel they were performing poorly'. Yeah, uh fuck that.
So anyway, we got to the end of this evaluation and she said to me "You know, when we sat in our preconferences each week I held other students back and told them to be careful not to get attached to patients, not to touch them for comfort because they could be dangerous. I never felt I had to do that with you... you gave off this kind of aura around you like you were... not 'cold', but distant, separate I suppose." I agreed with her. "Anyway, it wasn't until I saw you with certain patients that I realized just how difficult it was for you to deal with not comforting them, especially the children. Do you want to talk about that?"
"Nope."
"Well, I know there was an incident with [patient's name] where you left the ward crying after we were finished shift. I'm sorry that happened. I'm not sure what she said to you, but I'm sorry that it upset you so much."
We finished our meeting. I kind of blew her off. Crying? Pfft. I was just upset, I was fine, I was objective.
A 15 year old told me about how she had been assaulted, abandoned, hurt, was being moved away from her family against her will, she was anxious, unhappy, scared, and had the mental status of a near 11-year-old to top it all off... she was looking to me for comfort and assurance. It broke me, it really did. I couldn't hug her. I couldn't even put a hand on her back and say that it was gonna be okay, that somebody was going to be there at the other place to take care of her. I couldn't tell her I thought she was special, that she was important, that I would miss her, that I would come see her when she left the ward. I couldn't do anything.
There is a power to type 8. We have an assertiveness, there is that aura that says 'I'm here and I can do whatever I want, so you better convince me we want the same thing'. At the same time, this is our kryptonite in itself, because there comes times where there is someone we need to defend, there is a situation where we know 'I could just do X' or worse, 'I could have just done X' and have saved someone, have protected and defended someone, have kept someone from feeling the same mistrust and almost jaded approach that we have toward the world. Knowing that we could do so much and yet are powerless in some situations is heartbreaking, at least to me.
Really, I think there's a part of type 8s that just wants to save the young and vulnerable and happy from becoming like us... we say it's that they need us to defend them from a dark and cruel world but really, we want to keep them from becoming like us: uncomforted, unsoothed, untrusting, and feeling misused or abused.
Anyway, that's my 2c ramble. Sorry it's so damn long, it's hella late at night.
I had my end of placement evaluation with my instructor this past week. I was working on an acute mental health ward at a hospital; there was an intensive care area, a children's area and an adult area. My teacher told me at one point along the way that I should 'tone down my confidence' because it was giving me an 'unfair advantage' and 'making the other students feel they were performing poorly'. Yeah, uh fuck that.
So anyway, we got to the end of this evaluation and she said to me "You know, when we sat in our preconferences each week I held other students back and told them to be careful not to get attached to patients, not to touch them for comfort because they could be dangerous. I never felt I had to do that with you... you gave off this kind of aura around you like you were... not 'cold', but distant, separate I suppose." I agreed with her. "Anyway, it wasn't until I saw you with certain patients that I realized just how difficult it was for you to deal with not comforting them, especially the children. Do you want to talk about that?"
"Nope."
"Well, I know there was an incident with [patient's name] where you left the ward crying after we were finished shift. I'm sorry that happened. I'm not sure what she said to you, but I'm sorry that it upset you so much."
We finished our meeting. I kind of blew her off. Crying? Pfft. I was just upset, I was fine, I was objective.
A 15 year old told me about how she had been assaulted, abandoned, hurt, was being moved away from her family against her will, she was anxious, unhappy, scared, and had the mental status of a near 11-year-old to top it all off... she was looking to me for comfort and assurance. It broke me, it really did. I couldn't hug her. I couldn't even put a hand on her back and say that it was gonna be okay, that somebody was going to be there at the other place to take care of her. I couldn't tell her I thought she was special, that she was important, that I would miss her, that I would come see her when she left the ward. I couldn't do anything.
There is a power to type 8. We have an assertiveness, there is that aura that says 'I'm here and I can do whatever I want, so you better convince me we want the same thing'. At the same time, this is our kryptonite in itself, because there comes times where there is someone we need to defend, there is a situation where we know 'I could just do X' or worse, 'I could have just done X' and have saved someone, have protected and defended someone, have kept someone from feeling the same mistrust and almost jaded approach that we have toward the world. Knowing that we could do so much and yet are powerless in some situations is heartbreaking, at least to me.
Really, I think there's a part of type 8s that just wants to save the young and vulnerable and happy from becoming like us... we say it's that they need us to defend them from a dark and cruel world but really, we want to keep them from becoming like us: uncomforted, unsoothed, untrusting, and feeling misused or abused.
Anyway, that's my 2c ramble. Sorry it's so damn long, it's hella late at night.
Yes to this so fucking much. I read somewhere that the 8 projects their innocence onto the environment, thinking they lost it themselves they keep trying to find it in others and when they do, they will staunchly defend this not because they are actually defending that person in question but they deep down are trying to defend themselves. Fuck. I can't think about this right now.
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I put this in the "feels" thread. Really struck a chord with me when I read it.
Page 291 - 293 from "The Wisdome of the Enneagram"
Excerpt:
"TYPE EIGHT THE CHALLENGER
THE CHILDHOOD PATTERN
Most Eights have told us that they felt that they had to become
"adults" at an early age, perhaps to help bring in money to raise the
other children in the family because of an absent father or some other
calamity. They may have had to deal with a dangerous environment
(such as drug dealers, or street gangs, or some kind of war zone), or
with an erratic or violent adult in their home. Other Eights grow up in
fairly normal families but may have felt the need to protect their feel
ings for other reasons. In short, Eights tend to grow up quickly, and
survival issues are foremost to them, as if they were asking, "How can
I—and the few people I care about—survive in a cruel, uncaring
world?"
Young Eights may learn to play the role of the Scapegoat (the Black
Sheep or Problem Child). In family systems theory, "scapegoats" typi
cally make explicit the hidden problems in a family, through either
word or deed. As adults, Eights become mavericks, rebelling against re
straints and bucking the system wherever possible.
Sometimes the "decision" to steel themselves came when the child
felt betrayed by a parent or another significant adult. The child may have
been abandoned by the parents in a boarding school, or left with rela
tives, or had their savings or some other valuable taken from them un
fairly. They may also have been the victims of physical or sexual abuse.
But because of the gross imbalance of power between young Eights and
those who treated them unfairly, they could do little or nothing about
it except to make the decision never to allow this to happen to them
again.
Eights consider betrayal to be a pivotal point in their lives because
it marked the death of their innocence and goodness. When their inner
core was betrayed by someone important, Eights decided that they
would never allow themselves to be vulnerable or innocent again. They
would never allow themselves to drop their guard. For a time, Eights
may secretly grieve their lost innocence, but eventually they accept this
as the way they must be to meet life's challenges. If they have come
from backgrounds that were remorselessly threatening, Eights tend to
become as remorseless to themselves as they are to others. Once the
heart has been buried, even grief over lost innocence can be forgotten."
![]()
Page 291 - 293 from "The Wisdome of the Enneagram"
Excerpt:
"TYPE EIGHT THE CHALLENGER
THE CHILDHOOD PATTERN
Most Eights have told us that they felt that they had to become
"adults" at an early age, perhaps to help bring in money to raise the
other children in the family because of an absent father or some other
calamity. They may have had to deal with a dangerous environment
(such as drug dealers, or street gangs, or some kind of war zone), or
with an erratic or violent adult in their home. Other Eights grow up in
fairly normal families but may have felt the need to protect their feel
ings for other reasons. In short, Eights tend to grow up quickly, and
survival issues are foremost to them, as if they were asking, "How can
I—and the few people I care about—survive in a cruel, uncaring
world?"
Young Eights may learn to play the role of the Scapegoat (the Black
Sheep or Problem Child). In family systems theory, "scapegoats" typi
cally make explicit the hidden problems in a family, through either
word or deed. As adults, Eights become mavericks, rebelling against re
straints and bucking the system wherever possible.
Sometimes the "decision" to steel themselves came when the child
felt betrayed by a parent or another significant adult. The child may have
been abandoned by the parents in a boarding school, or left with rela
tives, or had their savings or some other valuable taken from them un
fairly. They may also have been the victims of physical or sexual abuse.
But because of the gross imbalance of power between young Eights and
those who treated them unfairly, they could do little or nothing about
it except to make the decision never to allow this to happen to them
again.
Eights consider betrayal to be a pivotal point in their lives because
it marked the death of their innocence and goodness. When their inner
core was betrayed by someone important, Eights decided that they
would never allow themselves to be vulnerable or innocent again. They
would never allow themselves to drop their guard. For a time, Eights
may secretly grieve their lost innocence, but eventually they accept this
as the way they must be to meet life's challenges. If they have come
from backgrounds that were remorselessly threatening, Eights tend to
become as remorseless to themselves as they are to others. Once the
heart has been buried, even grief over lost innocence can be forgotten."
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